So, playing 5th ed D&D, one of the features we have is that many fights get to a point where there is a lot of having a PC drop and then revived later in the round. Compared to earlier editions, there are a few things that help this:

1) No negative hit points, so even 1hp of healing brings you back from dying.
2) The Healing Word spell, that gives 1d4+stat bonus at range as a bonus action - along with a few similar options.
3) Getting up from prone takes only half your movement, with no attacks of opportunity.

In our fights, that means there is a phase where some characters keep dropping and then getting back up.

On the positive side, I hate it when players are taken out of the fight early and then have to sit around on their thumbs for a while through the remaining fight. Most versions of D&D are good at preventing this - the cleric is a vital innovation - and 5th edition does this very well. However, even with magic, I find the popping in and out of death to be hard on suspension-of-disbelief.  

I'd like to brainstorm on ways to keep the effect that all the PCs tend to stay up until they are close to TPK - but being easier on suspension-of-disbelief.

Maybe redefine 0 hp as 'unable to effectively fight, maneuver, or otherwise act' instead of the more traditional 'dying'?

I have use a death save system. So getting knocked to zero just mean's you're incapacitated - fatigued, stunned, whatever. If you roll really bad on your save then yeah, maybe you're severely wounded or dead.

But I found PCs popping in and out of consciousness several times in a battle in D&D dumb years ago. I don't care if it's trad or 'just part of the game,' it's goofy and it's one of the first things I house-ruled.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;823520Maybe redefine 0 hp as 'unable to effectively fight, maneuver, or otherwise act' instead of the more traditional 'dying'?

I'm fine with that in terms of believability.

However, in terms of game-play, that means there is less urgency to revive. i.e. I'm mostly OK, but my buddy has just been taken down. Do I use my action and/or spell slot to revive him, or to take down more of the enemy? If he's just incapacitated and there's no rush, then it might make more sense to take down the enemy quickly and help him later. If he's dying fast, though, then I'm definitely going to revive him.


One thought that occurs to me - what if instead of direct healing like Cure Wounds, the common spells were charms against death that negated the fatal blow?  Then instead of dropping and healing back up, the target was about to have a deadly wound but the charm took effect and the blow just missed. There could still be penalties from the distraction of the charm, say, equivalent to if one was downed and revived.

Quote from: Haffrung;823522But I found PCs popping in and out of consciousness several times in a battle in D&D dumb years ago. I don't care if it's trad or 'just part of the game,' it's goofy and it's one of the first things I house-ruled.

I never noticed it in other versions of D&D but it certainly seems a feature of 5e. In the last big battle we fought there was one guy who was up/down/up several times... and never did get a chance to attack. We laughed about it at the time but sheesh... quite lame in retrospect.

QuoteOne thought that occurs to me - what if instead of direct healing like Cure Wounds, the common spells were charms against death that negated the fatal blow?  Then instead of dropping and healing back up, the target was about to have a deadly wound but the charm took effect and the blow just missed. There could still be penalties from the distraction of the charm, say, equivalent to if one was downed and revived.

I'm not sure you mean 'charms' the way I'm taking it but Earthdawn had a lot of different 'Blood Charms' and there was one like you mention. My memory is hazy but IIRC it hooked into your flesh and was 'on' until you received a killing blow... at which point it absorbed the damage... or something... then it dropped off and the wearer just kept on fighting. It was a one-shot use and there were some classes that were proscribed from wearing any sort of charm at all.

That's why I use Unconscious at 0 HP and Dead at -1 HP for my OD&D games.

Keeps the game moving and keeps people on their toes tactically when they are are at 50% HP, and everyone starts thinking about retreat at 25% HP.

But I use Morale rules so my NPCs don't always fight to the death. This cuts down the grind. I use Morale in my 4e games to keep fights shorter too, thus less of the Up & Down you see with Healing actions & Death Saves.

Damn, i was hoping for a kick-ass magic item description.

Quote from: Haffrung;823522I have use a death save system. So getting knocked to zero just mean's you're incapacitated - fatigued, stunned, whatever. If you roll really bad on your save then yeah, maybe you're severely wounded or dead.

Quote from: jhkim;823527However, in terms of game-play, that means there is less urgency to revive. i.e. I'm mostly OK, but my buddy has just been taken down. Do I use my action and/or spell slot to revive him, or to take down more of the enemy? If he's just incapacitated and there's no rush, then it might make more sense to take down the enemy quickly and help him later. If he's dying fast, though, then I'm definitely going to revive him.

So what Haffrung said, only death saves start on the 2nd round after incapacitation. E.g., round 0, get hit and fall to 0. Round 1, PC is at 0, not death save. Round 2, PC is at 0, start making death saves. That way there is a one round window when a PC can be healed without worrying about a save.

Unconscious is essentially Swoon from old Final Fantasy games. Be it stable or death saves, it is still remedied by rousing them from faint. There's two requests I am hearing: 1) make unconscious more frightening and urgent, 2) delay the game from getting to this crisis point so quickly.

As for 1) If you really want to up the lethality let it be known that everyone - monsters included - knows about death saves. Then a few minions camping over fallen comrades to finish them off would really put the tension back in. It takes only two melee hits at 5' away to stack those 3 death saves and kill a character.

As for 2) Part of 5e's conceit is hitting more often and letting HP bloat sort it out. Now you either want to bloat HP so as to drag out the combat, OR increase the miss ratio and lower the attack to-hit. The former will eventually drag the game. The latter moves closer towards TSR D&D where whiffing was more common.

The easiest way to accomplish whiffing without bloat is to adjust the Attribute Derived Modifier Progression Rate. So instead of +1/-1 each two points over/under 10, switch that to +1/-1 each three points over/under 10. (Instead of 12 (+1), 14 (+2), ... make it 13 (+1), 16 (+2), ...) This then lowers the Attribute dependency, increases Proficiency Bonus value, and creates more whiffing to lengthen that combat frame before whack-a-mole occurs.

Quote from: Opaopajr;823620Unconscious is essentially Swoon from old Final Fantasy games. Be it stable or death saves, it is still remedied by rousing them from faint. There's two requests I am hearing: 1) make unconscious more frightening and urgent, 2) delay the game from getting to this crisis point so quickly.

No, I think I miscommunicated. In terms of game play dynamic, I am very with 5th ed - but I have problems with the believability of the popping to dying and back so often.

I'm happy to hear other thoughts on the topic, but my two requirements are:

1) More believable than current 5th ed.
2) Keeps the current dynamic where PCs keep each other in the fight, and it is rare for a player to be sitting out for a long time because his PC is unconscious or dead.

My current thought it to keep magic roughly the same, but instead of a PC dropping fatally wounded and then being brought back by another PC casting a cure spell - we have the alternate of the PC almost being fatally wounded, and the wound is prevented by another PC casting a death charm spell (perhaps cast as a reaction). Taking a death charm might cause someone to lose a move or some other penalty. That's just an idea, though - I'm not particularly advocating it at this point.

Its not a revolving door of death. Its the yo-yo of swooning.

Keep in mind that at 0 HP in 5e the downed character is incredibly vulnerable and actual death can come from about anything.

As I pointed out in another thread here. At 0 HP a single hit from anything counts as an automatic critical. Which is 2 automatic failed death saves if they hit. And they  have advantage to hit. Pray to whatever gods you hold dear that whatever it is doesnt have multiattack. Like oh... Bullywugs. Yes. The lowly froggers can instakill you when you are down. A pair of kobolds armed with sporks can instakill you.

Stabalizing someone just leaves them at 0 HP and unconcious. And you can fail that check. Getting them up to at least 1 HP means you have to waste an action somewhere to do so. And if you cannot get at the downed character then things may go badly if an attacker keeps at it.

One thing the players discussed with me was possibly adding simple rule that on the round after regaining conciousness the character is at disadvantage. This sounds good and maps well to a passed out character getting groggily back into the fray.

Quote from: jhkim;8236381) More believable than current 5th ed.
2) Keeps the current dynamic where PCs keep each other in the fight, and it is rare for a player to be sitting out for a long time because his PC is unconscious or dead.

It seems like the problem is the popping up, getting knocked down, and then popping back up again. Rather than having 0 HPs be dying could you redefine 0 HPs as unconscious or incapacitated from pain and shock? That way the heal that gets them to pop back up is more like someone splashing water on the guy who got knocked out in a bar fight in a 1930-1960 Western or like administering a combination of a pain killer and a stimulant to counter the shock. This would be in contrast to the spell dragging someone from the brink of death and then they are 100% good until they get knocked down to 0 HP again, when it is rinse and repeat.

Runequest 1-3 has a similar problem, though because of the hit locations and the lower hit points the, "I get knocked down, but I get up again" actually represented what was happening in universe for the characters and there was a functional difference between full hits and 25% hits that made it more risky to run right back into combat with less than full hits.

Quote from: Omega;823645As I pointed out in another thread here. At 0 HP a single hit from anything counts as an automatic critical. Which is 2 automatic failed death saves if they hit.

Quote from: Omega;823645And you can fail that check. Getting them up to at least 1 HP means you have to waste an action somewhere to do so. And if you cannot get at the downed character then things may go badly if an attacker keeps at it.

I agree with the general point that it is very easy to die after dropping to 0 HP. However, where is the rule that any hit is an automatic critical? That isn't how we've been playing, and I can't see that mentioned in my Player's Handbook. Also, there are some ways to get them to 1 HP without a full action, notably the Healing Word spell which only uses a bonus action and has range. It's been extremely important for our play.

Quote from: Bren;823646It seems like the problem is the popping up, getting knocked down, and then popping back up again. Rather than having 0 HPs be dying could you redefine 0 HPs as unconscious or incapacitated from pain and shock?

As I mentioned in a prior post, compared to current 5e, this reduces the urgency of healing people. If someone drops and they're just in pain, then it often may seem a better choice to attack the enemy rather than heal them. That makes sense realistically - but in terms of game play, it leaves the player sitting on his hands which I feel is less fun.

Already did this before, don't mind if I do this again.

Unconscious
• An unconscious creature is incapacitated (see the condition), can't move or speak, and is unaware of its surroundings.
• The creature drops whatever it's holding and falls prone.
• The creature automatically fails Strength and Dexterity saving throws.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
• Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the
attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 107.)

Death Saving Throws
[...]
Rolling 1 or 20. When you make a death saving throw and roll a 1 on the d20, it counts as two failures. If you roll a 20 on the d20, you regain 1 hit point.
Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure. If the damage is from a critical hit, you suffer two failures instead. If the damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum, you suffer instant death.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 76.)

A simple dual wield daggers at 5' will off a PC. As would a Magic Missile all focused on one target. Or just a bunch of attacks, too.

By the way, your charm idea? I would abuse the ever loving shit out of it. You're dropping healing from an Action, or as the amazing Healing Word, from a Bonus Action, onto a Reaction. Yes, please! Clerics are barely relying on their Reactions as it is, usually not bothering with OAs, and no access to the wizard spells Counterspell or Shield.

Undo button the moment a PC might go down? I'd take that everyday and twice on Sunday. My strong recommendation: don't.

Look, anything works if all the players are seeing eye to eye. The rules don't even need to be there if you are all on the same page and are playing all friendly-like. But if you want something a bit more robust, surviving contact with other people, keep a very sharp eye on action economy and tinker lightly on exceptional bits (i.e. spells). Banning is wholly preferable of those things beforehand.

They are already exceptions to the rules, better to adjust the core or delete rules exceptions (spells, class features, feats, etc.) first, not the other way around. This is very friendly advice from a strong CCG background. You'll save yourself a lot of heartache.

I see regarding unconsciousness - I hadn't realized about the final bullet point on the Unconscious condition.

Quote from: Opaopajr;823668By the way, your charm idea? I would abuse the ever loving shit out of it. You're dropping healing from an Action, or as the amazing Healing Word, from a Bonus Action, onto a Reaction. Yes, please! Clerics are barely relying on their Reactions as it is, usually not bothering with OAs, and no access to the wizard spells Counterspell or Shield.

Undo button the moment a PC might go down? I'd take that everyday and twice on Sunday. My strong recommendation: don't.

Look, you're nitpicking at a vague idea I haven't even written up. Depending on what the costs and penalties are for death charms, it could easily be tougher than the current situation instead. For example, a death charm could require that the next action after the reaction be used up to recover.

Quote from: Opaopajr;823668They are already exceptions to the rules, better to adjust the core or delete rules exceptions (spells, class features, feats, etc.) first, not the other way around. This is very friendly advice from a strong CCG background. You'll save yourself a lot of heartache.

I think this is a philosophical difference. I have strongly disliked most CCG influence on RPG design, because I feel that it leads to rules that are based on abstract game balance without any regard to the reality that is being portrayed.