That's the start of the background for module B2: Keep on the Borderlands. Kudos to S'mon for reminding me of that in the Appendix N thread.

Quote from: Gary GygaxThe Realm of mankind is narrow and constricted. Always the forces of Chaos press upon its borders, seeking to enslave its populace, rape its riches, and steal its treasures. If it were not for a stout few, many in the Realm would indeed fall prey to the evil which surrounds them. Yet, there are always certain exceptional and brave members of humanity, as well as similar individuals among its allies - dwarves, elves, and halflings - who rise above the common level and join battle to stave off the darkness which would otherwise overwhelm the land. Bold adventurers from the Realm set off for the Borderlands to seek their fortune. It is these adventurers who, provided they survive the challenge, carry the battle to the enemy. Such adventurers meet the forces of Chaos in a testing ground where only the fittest will return to relate the tale. Here, these individuals will become skilled in their profession, be it fighter or magic-user, cleric or thief. They will be tried in the fire of combat, those who return, hardened and more fit. True, some few who do survive the process will turn from Law and good and serve the masters of Chaos, but most will remain faithful and ready to fight chaos wherever it threatens to infect the Realm.

I just read Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions", which it's pretty clear this idea comes from.

Quote from: Poul AndersonWell, you see, the world of Law– of man– is hemmed in with strangeness, like an island in the sea of the Middle World. Northward live the giants, southward the dragons. Here in Tarnberg we are close to the eastern edge of human settlement and know a trifle about such kingdoms as Faerie and Trollheim. But news travels slowly and gets dissipated in the process. So we have only vague distorted rumors of the western realms– not merely the Middle World domains out in the western ocean, like Avalon, Lyonesse, and Huy Braseal, but even the human countries like France and Spain.

The funny thing is that this doesn't seem represented in any of the official D&D worlds. Those tend to be human dominated, and indeed, Gygax claims that is built into the game. In his article on the half-ogre (from Dragon magazine #29), he comments:

Quote from: Gary GygaxAll of this will certainly lead to the question, why is it that the human race is so favored in AD&D? There is no question that human characters have an edge on all others in the long run—even considering the generally unlimited potential for non-human thieves. The bias was placed in the game on the assumption that the vast majority of campaign milieux would be based on human-dominated worlds. Therefore, humans must have some sort of edge. As human adaptability is undoubted, and human capabilities deemed vast by this writer, it seemed to follow that allowing them the full range of possibilities was the best answer. Thus, humans are found in all alignments, in all professions, and so on. The weakest are very weak, the strongest very strong. The human race plumbs the depths and soars to the heights. In AD&D, as in the real world, humankind will certainly attain greatness and domination if it doesn't destroy itself first through warfare and strife within its own race.

So module B2 is actually an outlier - inspired by Poul Anderson - compared to designed D&D worlds like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms.

Does anyone use a world where humans are narrow and constricted? In my current setting, I wouldn't say humans are narrow and constricted - but still, they are centered on the Solar Empire that is the core of the setting. And there are more non-humans the further one goes from that center.

Sounds like 4E's Points of Light setting, which I often use, regardless of system.

I guess you could argue that in standard D&D humans only rule (large parts of) the Sunlit World, the Underdark is the Realm of Chaos/Dark Faerie, and the Dungeon is where the two sides meet and clash. 

I've played in the Midnight setting where Evil Rules, Good Drools, and humans are likely on their way out alongside Dwarves Elves et al, replaced by Izrador's Orcs.

I can't think of any game setting that really matches the Three Hearts setup, though. It seems more common in literary high fantasy - Lord of the Rings; Moorcock (where it's just as likely to be Chaotic Humanity vs Lawful quasi-Elves) et al.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 25, 2023, 01:36:34 PM
Sounds like 4E's Points of Light setting, which I often use, regardless of system.

PoL is different from defined Law & defined Chaos zones, though. PoL is Points of Law in a sea of Chaos.

In his Campaign Milieu discussion in the 1e DMG, Gygax assumes a kind of Old West Frontier setup, with a defined border between Law (Man) and Chaos (Humanoids) that is expanding, or possibly contracting. But I don't see much of that in Greyhawk, which has little in the way of significant non-human realms - Iuz & the Horned Society maybe come closest, plus the Pomarj, but that's pretty minor. Evil human factions such as the Great Kingdom & Scarlet Brotherhood seem considerably more significant.

The Judges Guild Wilderlands is the classic Points of Light setting, with the world a general sea of Chaos and only a few islands of relative civilisation.

My Forgotten Realms game is set in Damara (Lawful) which contrasts with Chaotic Vaasa over the Galenas mountains. But it's notable that these realms do not originate in Greenwood's Forgotten Realms, having been imported from the high fantasy Bloodstone Wars module series.

Quote from: S'mon on April 25, 2023, 02:02:05 PM
In his Campaign Milieu discussion in the 1e DMG, Gygax assumes a kind of Old West Frontier setup, with a defined border between Law (Man) and Chaos (Humanoids) that is expanding, or possibly contracting. But I don't see much of that in Greyhawk, which has little in the way of significant non-human realms - Iuz & the Horned Society maybe come closest, plus the Pomarj, but that's pretty minor.

Yeah, the contrast of Greyhawk compared to assumptions of B2 (and maybe the DMG) are curious. I would note that the DMG doesn't assume chaotic humanoid hordes outside of civilization. There's no presumption of something like Poul Anderson's fae empire. Instead, it's assumed that the borders of human civilization are dangerous wilderness with scattered monsters. So a PC isn't conquering territory held by evil humanoids, but rather "taming the wilderness".

This isn't very explicit until one gets to the PC territory section,

Quote from: Gary GygaxTERRITORY DEVELOPMENT BY PLAYER CHARACTERS

When player characters reach upper levels and decide to establish a stronghold and rule a territory, you must have fairly detailed information on hand to enable this to take place. You must have a large scale map which shows areas where this is possible, a detailed cultural and social treatment of the area and those which bound it, and you must have some extensive information available as to who and what lives in the area to be claimed and held by the player character. Most of these things are provided for you, however, in one form or another, in this work or in the various playing aid packages which are commercially available. The exact culture and society of the area is up to you, but there are many guides to help you even here.

Assume that the player in question decides that he will set up a stronghold about 100 miles from a border town, choosing an area of wooded hills as the general site. He then asks you if there is a place where he can build a small concentric castle on a high bluff overlooking a river You give him a map of the hex where the location is, and of the six surrounding hexes. The player character and his henchmen and various retainers must now go to the construction site, explore and map it, and have construction commence.

(...rules for construction skipped...)

Quote from: Gary GygaxAt such time as a territory has more than 30 miles of inhabited/patrolled land from center to border, then only the second type of monster checks are made, and all unfavorable ones, save one per month, are ignored. This reflects the development of civilization in the area and the shunning by monsters of the usual sort – things such as ankheg might love it, however, and bandits might decide to make it a regular place of call. As usual, any monsters not driven off or slain will settle down to enjoy the place. If border patrols are not kept up, then the territory will revert to wilderness status – unless the lands around it are all inhabited and patrolled. In the latter case all the unsavory monsters from the surrounding territory will come to make it a haven for themselves.

A hundred miles of wilderness is an awful lot of space. That's a very American assumption rather than European.

I never played 4E, and I've only vaguely heard about the 4E "Points of Light" setting. Does it assume more like the DMG's untamed wilderness? Or more something like Anderson's fey empire that holds sway over what's outside the points of light?

Quote from: jhkim on April 25, 2023, 11:21:59 AM
Does anyone use a world where humans are narrow and constricted? In my current setting, I wouldn't say humans are narrow and constricted - but still, they are centered on the Solar Empire that is the core of the setting. And there are more non-humans the further one goes from that center.

The first thing that popped into my head from the Gygax quote was Midgard in Norse Mythology, which as I understand it translates roughly to the "central enclosure". It would therefore literally be a confined space in which humanity dwells, surrounded on all sides by the worlds of gods and monsters.

I haven't really toyed with that concept in my homebrews in the past, but it's something I very much want to incorporate into the setting I'm currently working on. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few examples of published settings that might qualify: Namely, Primeval Thule, Calidar and Symbaroum. You could make an argument for Dark Sun, and a somewhat tenuous one for Warhammer's Old World setting as well. Black Void has its own take on "Humanity vs. Everything Else", but it's more Lovecraftian than Andersonian. The Dolmenwood setting that Necrotic Gnome is working on seems to be working in that direction, but since it's not out yet, I couldn't really say.

Personally, I would guess there are two major reasons why you don't see an Andersonian approach to humanity and the supernatural in many RPG settings. One would be that setting writers want to engage with political conflicts and man-vs-man struggles, which are better facilitated by a human-dominated, or at least civilization-dominated worlds. The other is the impetus towards having more playable races, which kind of necessitates the bringing of elves, dwarves, etc. into that metaphysical space of the "ordered world". This, I think is what leads you to the highly cosmopolitan D&D settings (Faerun being the classic example) that we're all very used to.

EDIT: It's probably worth acknowledging that the approach to humanity and the supernatural used in 3H3L is kind of unique, even amongst Paul Anderson's works. In that book, the supernatural world exists on the physical borders of the human one. In The Broken Sword, as well as A Midsummer Night's Tempest and some of his other work, the supernatural world exists alongside and even intermingled with the human one, but is normally hidden from human perception. That latter approach is how I'm choosing to run my Dragon Warriors campaign, and I feel like you see its legacy in a lot of modern-setting games like Vampire the Masquerade or Kult.

Quote from: jhkim on April 25, 2023, 03:59:21 PM
I never played 4E, and I've only vaguely heard about the 4E "Points of Light" setting. Does it assume more like the DMG's untamed wilderness? Or more something like Anderson's fey empire that holds sway over what's outside the points of light?

It's wilderness. In 4e PoL even the Eladrin (Fey) empires of the Feywild have fallen, mirroring the collapse of civilisation in the mortal world. There were great non-human empires in the past, Bael Turath (Tieflings) vs Arkhosia (Dragonborn), but they destroyed each other. The closest thing to a major power seems to be the Diabolist but human-run Iron Circle; more of a network than a real empire though.

I think Kobold Press's own Midgard setting may have PA influence though; the Fey are a major deal there, including ruling parts of the mortal world. I've used some of their Shadow Fey stuff - the Shadow Fey have a major empire in Faerie-land; playing Queen Sarasathra being presented with Grumpfl by Nathia the party Goliath was great fun. Grumpfl* is a Goliath delicacy, lots of moss twigs & bark in there - luckily the Queen liked it!

*Invented by player Kimberly Pauley, there's an IRL version too  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzyf5o7yHXs

Paizo's Golarion has some fey or quasi-fey ruled realms like Irrisen, but they all seem to have majority human population AFAICR.

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 25, 2023, 04:30:55 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few examples of published settings that might qualify: Namely, Primeval Thule...

I think Primeval Thule is very human dominated. The glaciers will eventually wipe out humanity on Thule, but there's not much competition from the remaining non-human races. There were great wars in the past though, against the Rakshasa, Elves, Serpent Men et al.

Quote from: S'mon on April 25, 2023, 05:56:31 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 25, 2023, 04:30:55 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few examples of published settings that might qualify: Namely, Primeval Thule...

I think Primeval Thule is very human dominated. The glaciers will eventually wipe out humanity on Thule, but there's not much competition from the remaining non-human races. There were great wars in the past though, against the Rakshasa, Elves, Serpent Men et al.

I could be wrong, here. It's been a while since I looked at the book, but my memory of it was that it made a fuss about how Humanity was isolated in smaller settled areas, separated by vast tracts of untamed wilderness. Admittedly, that still wouldn't qualify it for the Andersonian model of a Human realm set against a larger demi-human or occult realm.

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 25, 2023, 06:12:07 PM
I could be wrong, here. It's been a while since I looked at the book, but my memory of it was that it made a fuss about how Humanity was isolated in smaller settled areas, separated by vast tracts of untamed wilderness. Admittedly, that still wouldn't qualify it for the Andersonian model of a Human realm set against a larger demi-human or occult realm.

Civilised lands are fairly small, outside the Claws of Imystrahl region it's just a few city states (though Lomar dominates an extensive area), but most of the wilderness is roamed by human barbarians and neanderthals, with a few serpent folk.

I definitely recall some chatter in dragon magazine about possible worlds that were dominated by elves, or dwarves, but overall Gygax didn't just want to be able to tell a story about humans, it drove several game balance decisions of his.  His world is definitely neither narrow nor constricted.  His ideas about space and size are appropriate for any times and places where civilization bumps up against savagery- appropriate to northern Europe before Caesar, North America at the age of pioneers, and steppe Asia (and other parts like that) a super long time ago, etc.

So, why isn't the realm of mankind narrow and constricted?  Likely because if the forces of chaos can do that, it's only a small measure of time before the infighting accidentally pauses long enough for them to crush law completely.  A story about that normally has to give humanity a somewhat unbeatable premise on its own territory, but that then makes you wonder what role humanity even has- after all, in fantasy, the ways of being of non-humans are generally "like humans but better".  Only creatures that clearly live in a debased and terrified fashion- and who would in many cases prefer to live under human rule if that were possible, such as kobolds or goblins- have a way of living that would be improved by humanity.  Would having a noble king improve the life of a gold dragon?  Even a tribe of trolls wouldn't really benefit from having order to the degree a man might.

I propose that this degree of strangeness might contribute to the views of those who, like Gygax, defined a world where humanity had a stronghold it could expand from, and was not opposed by irreducible forces of chaos on all sides constantly.

Quote from: jhkim on April 25, 2023, 11:21:59 AM
So module B2 is actually an outlier - inspired by Poul Anderson - compared to designed D&D worlds like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms.

Does anyone use a world where humans are narrow and constricted? In my current setting, I wouldn't say humans are narrow and constricted - but still, they are centered on the Solar Empire that is the core of the setting. And there are more non-humans the further one goes from that center.

Isn't there an argument that the population density on Greyhawk is incredibly low - if you read the gazetteers, that most of the land "claimed" by the human nations on the map is really howling wilderness, with tiny pockets of civilisation? e.g. http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=751, https://www.enworld.org/threads/country-size-and-population-density-of-the-flanaess-greyhawk.676071/, ... I believe they even revised the populations upwards in later printings, but I only own the old folio edition.

Quote from: jhkim on April 25, 2023, 11:21:59 AM
Does anyone use a world where humans are narrow and constricted?

My default setting has civilizations in general restrained and constricted, including humanity.

For reference the main region is about 15,000 square miles and the largest city (an extremely mixed race trade city sitting at the crossroads of the the three biggest trade routes) in the area has a population of just over 15,000. Less than a dozen settlements have more than 1000 people.

The total population of the two heroic realms is about 47,000 (80% sheltering inside those dozen walled settlements at night and only traveling out to their fields during the relative safety of day).

The human population therein is roughly 23,000 (more than a third of which do NOT live in the walled settlements, but in allied barbarian villages).

They are opposed by two tyrannical realms with populations of 60,000 (caste-based theocratic elves) and 20,000 (fractured orc/ogre empire) respectively.

Both the heroic and tyrannical realms are opposed by 12,000 square miles of ruin-filled wilderness (200 years ago the entire region was a megacity home to tens of millions... but after the destruction of the Cataclysm and obliteration of all but maybe 10,000 survivors, the wilderness reclaimed it) filled with hostile mutant, undead and abyssal creatures, not to mention cultists, bandits, and blood-thirsty savages.

Of note as well is how limited this makes the military forces of the points of light. The more urban heroic realm of 35,000 has barely 350 defenders and could rally 2100 of the townspeople in defense of their communities in an emergency.

The largely human heroic barbarian tribes have no standing army, but to survive in the hostile wilds requires such skill that 1200 of their people (20% of their overall numbers) count as warriors with another 600 the equivalent of conscripts. Getting all of the tribes united would be the most difficult part.

Despite having the largest overall population, their armed forces number barely 300 as their caste-based society forbids those not of the warrior caste are forbidden to bear arms (probably 4800 of lower castes are skilled enough to fight, but even trying to defend yourself as a non-warrior brings dishonor). What soldiers they have are the elite of the elite with centuries of fighting experience.

The Orcish empire is fully militarized with a standing army meant for conquest and extracting tribute from its neighbors. They have 1000 orc/ogre warriors and 2000 goblin slave soldiers split between four feuding warlords (the four heirs of their previous Emperor... the Emperor died before naming which would be his successor and so a cold civil war has been in effect for the last three decades).

All of which is to say none of the points of civilization, even the tyrannical ones, really have the manpower to push very far past their borders or deal with exceptional threats to their realms.

That's what PCs are for.

Quote from: Naburimannu on April 26, 2023, 04:18:23 AM
Isn't there an argument that the population density on Greyhawk is incredibly low - if you read the gazetteers, that most of the land "claimed" by the human nations on the map is really howling wilderness

In the Gord books it's not all howling wilderness, but it's not medieval Europe either. It's probably closest to the American colonies in the 17th-18th centuries in feel. Population density seems far lower than in medieval Europe, and there are vast tracts of 'not much', but it's not Points of Light. Human civilisation seems well established, though widely scattered.