Quote from: jspenson on January 21, 2025, 06:31:24 PMisin't that more of an individual case.

No it fucking isn't.

Quote from: jspenson on January 21, 2025, 06:31:24 PMisin't that more of an individual case and not a pattern like you'd have to prove somehow that that's because of wokeness

No, and I smell a sock puppet account....

Hi guys,

this time I'd like to have your opinion about Torchbearer from Burningwheel. The reason I'm interested in this game is I'm looking for a pseudo-OSR-like dungeon crawler with old fashioned arts. I saw this game could be the good one, and it will be available in my mother tongue this year, so I may give it a try.

Obviously, I was disappointed to see it in the redlist, but also surprised not to find here any description of actual content from the game itself possibly owning its place.

Thence my question: do you know this game, what is your general feeling about it, and of course, could you point me actual woke/anti-consumer content from the book itself?

Subsidiary comment: don't you think making a list based on game lines rather than companies, would allow a better granularity and increased relevance for consumers? For instance, if I was unable to see any wokeness in The One Ring yet, I cannot avoid being negatively triggered when reading Forbidden Lands, and I don't think it is only due to my own and unfounded conservative bias (though it plays a role ofc). Meanwhile, both games are from Free League, often told to deserve its place in the greenlist. I don't think FL would merit a place in the redlist in itself, but, I'm just wondering about the relevance of a company-based list. 

Quote from: Phil on January 23, 2025, 04:25:48 AMHi guys,

this time I'd like to have your opinion about Torchbearer from Burningwheel. The reason I'm interested in this game is I'm looking for a pseudo-OSR-like dungeon crawler with old fashioned arts. I saw this game could be the good one, and it will be available in my mother tongue this year, so I may give it a try.

Obviously, I was disappointed to see it in the redlist, but also surprised not to find here any description of actual content from the game itself possibly owning its place.

Thence my question: do you know this game, what is your general feeling about it, and of course, could you point me actual woke/anti-consumer content from the book itself?

Subsidiary comment: don't you think making a list based on game lines rather than companies, would allow a better granularity and increased relevance for consumers? For instance, if I was unable to see any wokeness in The One Ring yet, I cannot avoid being negatively triggered when reading Forbidden Lands, and I don't think it is only due to my own and unfounded conservative bias (though it plays a role ofc). Meanwhile, both games are from Free League, often told to deserve its place in the greenlist. I don't think FL would merit a place in the redlist in itself, but, I'm just wondering about the relevance of a company-based list. 

As a conservative myself (I really burn all the deranged left by being a straight White Catholic male who is a father of multiple children with a stay at home wife) avoid any company on the red list and did so for the most part before seeing this list. Most of the yellow is already on the no buy list. As is the gamers for Harris list which had some boardgame companies I was interested in.

As for Free League, I own everything for TOR & FL. I can see why the issue with FL, but TOR I have no problem as I have not run into any issues in it (yet), and it is one of my favourite games.

So, TLDR I can see some system by system choice merit, for companies on the yellow.

Quote from: Phil on January 23, 2025, 04:25:48 AMSubsidiary comment: don't you think making a list based on game lines rather than companies, would allow a better granularity and increased relevance for consumers? For instance, if I was unable to see any wokeness in The One Ring yet, I cannot avoid being negatively triggered when reading Forbidden Lands, and I don't think it is only due to my own and unfounded conservative bias (though it plays a role ofc). Meanwhile, both games are from Free League, often told to deserve its place in the greenlist. I don't think FL would merit a place in the redlist in itself, but, I'm just wondering about the relevance of a company-based list. 

The idea of a company based list is that some of us would rather not support companies that engage in anti-consumer behavior at all. Often, that behavior happens outside of any product -- at conventions, in interviews, on social media, etc.

For us, it's not alone about whether the product in-hand is woke, it's also about whether or not my hard-earned money is going toward creating more woke.

Quote from: Zalman on January 23, 2025, 07:51:07 AM

Quote from: Phil on January 23, 2025, 04:25:48 AMSubsidiary comment: don't you think making a list based on game lines rather than companies, would allow a better granularity and increased relevance for consumers? For instance, if I was unable to see any wokeness in The One Ring yet, I cannot avoid being negatively triggered when reading Forbidden Lands, and I don't think it is only due to my own and unfounded conservative bias (though it plays a role ofc). Meanwhile, both games are from Free League, often told to deserve its place in the greenlist. I don't think FL would merit a place in the redlist in itself, but, I'm just wondering about the relevance of a company-based list. 

The idea of a company based list is that some of us would rather not support companies that engage in anti-consumer behavior at all. Often, that behavior happens outside of any product -- at conventions, in interviews, on social media, etc.

For us, it's not alone about whether the product in-hand is woke, it's also about whether or not my hard-earned money is going toward creating more woke.

This is my attitude as well, insofar as I do not enjoy hardly any allegorical lecturing in my escapism, least of all lecturing that tries to shame my existence. It's too much effort to start parsing what is objectionable and what isn't from within a company - companies should be uniformly un-insulting and gracious towards their end users.

I have a nominee for the Red category for calling for violence against people who voted for Trump.  This is the RPG YouTuber Seth Skorkowski.

Yesterday on his Facebook account he posted about an RPG he really liked because he was all about "punching Nazi's."  We all know what that is code for.  Once you get into the comments section, there is no doubt that is indeed the case.  One person politely pushed back and received the usual responses.  Seth did comment on this thread chain and let you know exactly where he stood on the issue.  (Spoiler, if you are not a leftist, he hates you and is OK with violence against you.)  Sadly, the OP deleted the thread before I could get a screenshot.

Quote from: Phil on January 23, 2025, 04:25:48 AMHi guys,

this time I'd like to have your opinion about Torchbearer from Burningwheel. <snip>

I'm just wondering about the relevance of a company-based list. <snip>
 

I jumped ship on Torchbearer 2nd edition, mainly because one of the designers/associated dudes was a complete a**hole online.  They had some kind of controversy* (unrelated to the behavior that irked me) that allowed people to jump ship from their Kickstarter and I used that to get a refund.

As for a company list, this is the way to go IMO. Why support companies that hate you?  I like Ben and Jerry's New York Super Fudge Chunk Ice Cream, but I won't buy anything from them.

* If you're really curious, just check the Torchbearer RPG Kickstarter page and check the comments from circa March 2021.

Quote from: erc1971 on January 23, 2025, 04:56:22 PMI have a nominee for the Red category for calling for violence against people who voted for Trump.  This is the RPG YouTuber Seth Skorkowski.

Interesting. I blocked him a couple of years ago.  Haven't thought about him since!

Quote from: FASAfan on January 23, 2025, 05:50:36 PM

Quote from: erc1971 on January 23, 2025, 04:56:22 PMI have a nominee for the Red category for calling for violence against people who voted for Trump.  This is the RPG YouTuber Seth Skorkowski.

Interesting. I blocked him a couple of years ago.  Haven't thought about him since!

I knew he was left, but I never saw anything about him hating on people different than him - and that is all I ask of anyone.  I am thinking January 20th broke his brain.  Needless to say, I have joined you in blocking him.

Quote from: erc1971 on January 23, 2025, 04:56:22 PMYesterday on his Facebook account he posted about an RPG he really liked because he was all about "punching Nazi's."  We all know what that is code for. 

Everything isn't a code.  Sometimes, people just mean what they say.  He called for violence against real people?  I'm going to need to see some receipts on that one. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 23, 2025, 11:02:42 PM

Quote from: erc1971 on January 23, 2025, 04:56:22 PMYesterday on his Facebook account he posted about an RPG he really liked because he was all about "punching Nazi's."  We all know what that is code for. 

Everything isn't a code.  Sometimes, people just mean what they say.  He called for violence against real people?  I'm going to need to see some receipts on that one. 

I hear ya.  Sadly the OP on the chat chain he had replied on deleted his post...along with all the replies to it.  So if what I posted is not enough for you, that's cool, I get it.