The secret history of the satanic panic! Also, how it changed American Christianity forever, and might be responsible for MAGA.
The Pulling Report by Michael Stackpole
http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html
For anyone who is curious about the Satanic Panic at its ground zero, I grew up in Richmond, VA and was playing RPGs as a teenager there at the height of the Panic (in the mid to late 80's). That's Patricia Pulling's stomping grounds and the founding location of B.A.D.D. We saw the people who wanted to shut us all down in the media occasionally, but we mostly just laughed at them. So, yeah, it happened, but it was far more media event than real event. Didn't directly affect me (my life and family situation was so screwed up that whatever games I was playing was the least of my parent's worries), but I had several friends that it did affect in minor ways, mostly just by their parents saying they couldn't play the game.
But as for some massive movement that scarred swathes of children, that certainly wasn't the case in the epicenter of the whole controversy. We freely played home games and shopped at the local magic shop/game store One Eyed Jacques (which is where I bought all my games back then). I went to a Southern Baptist church, rolled up characters in the back of my English class, and openly carried my D&D books everywhere in Richmond. The most I ever got was questions from a curious person or two who had vaguely heard there was some controversy about the game and wanted to know what it was. Maybe some crazed pogrom was happening somewhere at the time (I know Janet Reno, et al., were trumping up charges against day care workers at the time), but at ground zero, the home of the notorious Pulling herself, it was far more of a media-driven sensationalist story than anything that affected our gaming or lives.
There's a recent book on the subject called "Dangerous Games" by Joseph Laycock.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1409185311i/23014149.jpg)
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23014149
I have a copy, but I've only read a few chapters. It has interesting material and a lot of research, but it can be slow for someone who's lived through it.
I watched your video. Yes, the Satanic Panic thing was real. As a Gen X-er growing up during the height of it all, my experience was mixed.
For some context, I started playing in 1981. The James Dallas incident happened in '79, Mazes & Monsters was published in '81 and the TV movie to come out the following year (Dec '82).
"Beware the sacrilege!" - Tom Hanks as Pardue the Priest. LOL
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Just in the years between 79-'82, D&D and the Satanic Panic were already becoming a mainstream subject.
By '83, Patricia Pulling created BaDD, and things really started to roll.
Personally, I wasn't directly affected. There was an incident while I was in school, where a small group of us kids were bringing the D&D/AD&D books to school, and we got caught. We were told by the teacher not to bring them to school anymore, not because of the Satanic panic, but it was disrupting our studies in class. I went to a Catholic grade school BTW.
I don't recall any incidents of gamers at the time who were directly affected by the whole thing. We knew the anti-D&D Satanic Panic existed, but it was something on the periphery. The gaming community where I lived at the time (Omaha, NE) was pretty close-knit. We all looked out for each other and IMO made an effort to be mindful of those who might want to disrupt our community.
I guess I consider myself lucky in the fact that if such a disruption were to occur, we had each other's backs. In fact, I would even go as far as we'd be level-headed about it and would attempt to educate people about D&D.
That's the thing. I remember telling my folks first about the game when I wanted to get my own books and play. I borrowed my friend's copy of B/X D&D and explained that you play a hero trying to defeat evil bad guys. My parents looked at the books and probably thought "it's weird, but harmless. At LEAST he's making friends." and gave their approval.
It was only much later by reading other people's accounts on the Internet that I found actual people who were affected. By that time (mid to late 90s), the Satanic Panic had died away.
With that being said, the whole premise that the panic was a psyop against Christianity in the US is complete fantasy, as you pretty much said in your video. The idea of it sounds like a Chick Track.
The satanic panic was alive and well in the 90s and beyond. In the 90s it mostly switched target to videogames, but Harry Potter caught some significant flack, and I had a friend who's mother still thought D&D was satanic in like 2002.
My mom watched the 700 Club and bought into D&D being pure evil. She made my brother and I get rid of our Mentzer stuff, but really we just hid it. Oddly, she had zero issues with any other RPG, including Palladium FRP, TMNT, Rolemaster, etc., so I bought a lot of those instead and played D&D anyway. It was literally only D&D which was problematic, perplexingly so.
Even to this fucking day she thinks D&D is magically evil, when the metric ton of other RPGs I have are fine, even shit like Nephilim and Aquelarre, which could arguably be Satanic. I mean, The Arcanum has a pentagram on the front, that's okay, but D&D? EEEEEEVIL!
If the Satanic Panic was a psyop, it was to tank TSR and allow other publishers to thrive.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 22, 2025, 10:35:32 PMFor anyone who is curious about the Satanic Panic at its ground zero, I grew up in Richmond, VA and was playing RPGs as a teenager there at the height of the Panic (in the mid to late 80's). That's Patricia Pulling's stomping grounds and the founding location of B.A.D.D. We saw the people who wanted to shut us all down in the media occasionally, but we mostly just laughed at them. So, yeah, it happened, but it was far more media event than real event. Didn't directly affect me (my life and family situation was so screwed up that whatever games I was playing was the least of my parent's worries), but I had several friends that it did affect in minor ways, mostly just by their parents saying they couldn't play the game.
But as for some massive movement that scarred swathes of children, that certainly wasn't the case in the epicenter of the whole controversy. We freely played home games and shopped at the local magic shop/game store One Eyed Jacques (which is where I bought all my games back then). I went to a Southern Baptist church, rolled up characters in the back of my English class, and openly carried my D&D books everywhere in Richmond. The most I ever got was questions from a curious person or two who had vaguely heard there was some controversy about the game and wanted to know what it was. Maybe some crazed pogrom was happening somewhere at the time (I know Janet Reno, et al., were trumping up charges against day care workers at the time), but at ground zero, the home of the notorious Pulling herself, it was far more of a media-driven sensationalist story than anything that affected our gaming or lives.
Well, people used to not be so bizarrely brazen and confrontational on the street in general. I think the fire was trained at the producers and providers of what they considered the immorality, not the kids running around with Monster Manuals.
The Satanic Panic was very real. I myself had my BECMI taken away by brainwashed idiot parents. Joke was on them in the end. I would have never had my professional career without that Mentzer red box.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 22, 2025, 10:35:32 PMFor anyone who is curious about the Satanic Panic at its ground zero, I grew up in Richmond, VA and was playing RPGs as a teenager there at the height of the Panic (in the mid to late 80's). That's Patricia Pulling's stomping grounds and the founding location of B.A.D.D. We saw the people who wanted to shut us all down in the media occasionally, but we mostly just laughed at them. So, yeah, it happened, but it was far more media event than real event. Didn't directly affect me (my life and family situation was so screwed up that whatever games I was playing was the least of my parent's worries), but I had several friends that it did affect in minor ways, mostly just by their parents saying they couldn't play the game.
But as for some massive movement that scarred swathes of children, that certainly wasn't the case in the epicenter of the whole controversy. We freely played home games and shopped at the local magic shop/game store One Eyed Jacques (which is where I bought all my games back then). I went to a Southern Baptist church, rolled up characters in the back of my English class, and openly carried my D&D books everywhere in Richmond. The most I ever got was questions from a curious person or two who had vaguely heard there was some controversy about the game and wanted to know what it was. Maybe some crazed pogrom was happening somewhere at the time (I know Janet Reno, et al., were trumping up charges against day care workers at the time), but at ground zero, the home of the notorious Pulling herself, it was far more of a media-driven sensationalist story than anything that affected our gaming or lives.
I was just up the road from you in Fredericksburg. My mom heard about all the fuss and asked me about it. I invited her to play so that she could see for herself what we were doing. She rolled up a BX elf and played a session with us. After that she ignored all BS and we played on.
I still go by One Eyed Jacques once in a while whenever we go to Carytown.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 23, 2025, 11:33:37 AMThe satanic panic was alive and well in the 90s and beyond. In the 90s it mostly switched target to videogames, but Harry Potter caught some significant flack, and I had a friend who's mother still thought D&D was satanic in like 2002.
Yep, you're right. I was only thinking of TTRPGs.
Quote from: SmallMountaineer on January 23, 2025, 11:59:06 AMWell, people used to not be so bizarrely brazen and confrontational on the street in general. I think the fire was trained at the producers and providers of what they considered the immorality, not the kids running around with Monster Manuals.
As far as targets, the whole "what about the children?" thing was going on. There are many accounts of people recounting later, when they were kids, they were forced to ditch their books and dice. A couple of accounts right here.
I don't know of any accounts of people protesting in front of TSR in Lake Geneva or game/hobby shops for that matter.
It was much easier logistically at the time to protest by grandstanding at the local church and preventing the kids from getting books and dice.
The James Dallas Egbert incident was a hoax. The guy was just mentally ill and fled to Louisiana.
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on January 23, 2025, 02:36:35 PMThe James Dallas Egbert incident was a hoax. The guy was just mentally ill and fled to Louisiana.
Exactly. But remember, when people have an agenda, they don't let the facts get in the way.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 23, 2025, 11:33:37 AMThe satanic panic was alive and well in the 90s and beyond. In the 90s it mostly switched target to videogames, but Harry Potter caught some significant flack, and I had a friend who's mother still thought D&D was satanic in like 2002.
Meh, it was pretty much over by about '92-'93. Beyond that it was kind of a "flat earth" thing, even in churches. The article on Mike Warnke by Cornerstone in 1992 basically brought the movement to a halt and it all fell apart in months after that. (I think it pushed my mother into a psychotic break she's never recovered from.)
Quote from: Brad on January 23, 2025, 11:46:02 AMMy mom watched the 700 Club and bought into D&D being pure evil. She made my brother and I get rid of our Mentzer stuff, but really we just hid it. Oddly, she had zero issues with any other RPG, including Palladium FRP, TMNT, Rolemaster, etc., so I bought a lot of those instead and played D&D anyway. It was literally only D&D which was problematic, perplexingly so.
Even to this fucking day she thinks D&D is magically evil, when the metric ton of other RPGs I have are fine, even shit like Nephilim and Aquelarre, which could arguably be Satanic. I mean, The Arcanum has a pentagram on the front, that's okay, but D&D? EEEEEEVIL!
If the Satanic Panic was a psyop, it was to tank TSR and allow other publishers to thrive.
The 700 club was pretty intensely on the anti-D&D train even well after the Satanic Panic ended. One of my favorite PSAs they used to run: https://youtu.be/kDJ1UOpxjt4?si=-21YOkBsnR3Ahtaw
Trinity Broadcast Network.
(https://i.imgflip.com/3kh2y5.jpg)
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on January 23, 2025, 06:51:45 PMThe 700 club was pretty intensely on the anti-D&D train even well after the Satanic Panic ended. One of my favorite PSAs they used to run: https://youtu.be/kDJ1UOpxjt4?si=-21YOkBsnR3Ahtaw
That game looks super badass compared to a bunch of nerds playing D&D. Was this supposed to deter anyone?
Weird. I started playing in 1980 and am a lifelong member of a very conservative Christian church and heard nothing of it til I was in college in the early 90's. I assumed it was just a few random wacko. It probably helped that my first game was just my immediate family with my mom as DM. (I was 10)
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on January 23, 2025, 02:36:35 PMThe James Dallas Egbert incident was a hoax. The guy was just mentally ill and fled to Louisiana.
I can thank Egbert for indirectly bringing me into the rpg hobby. He attended the same high school as I did, but graduated a year earlier, so I never met him in person. His "disappearance" was a big thing in the local media (Dayton, Ohio). My friends and I had never heard of roleplaying games until then, but the reports about D&D greatly intrigued us. Luckily, some business-savvy shopowners began to stock rpgs and so we all started to play. However, the first rpg we played wasn't even D&D, but High Fantasy. We switched to AD&D a few months later, when the first edition DMG was released.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fantasy_(role-playing_game) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fantasy_(role-playing_game))
Neither I or any of my friends were from evangelical families, so the Satanic Panic wasn't an issue and we only knew about it from the media.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on January 23, 2025, 01:33:00 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on January 22, 2025, 10:35:32 PMFor anyone who is curious about the Satanic Panic at its ground zero, I grew up in Richmond, VA and was playing RPGs as a teenager there at the height of the Panic (in the mid to late 80's). That's Patricia Pulling's stomping grounds and the founding location of B.A.D.D. We saw the people who wanted to shut us all down in the media occasionally, but we mostly just laughed at them. So, yeah, it happened, but it was far more media event than real event. Didn't directly affect me (my life and family situation was so screwed up that whatever games I was playing was the least of my parent's worries), but I had several friends that it did affect in minor ways, mostly just by their parents saying they couldn't play the game.
But as for some massive movement that scarred swathes of children, that certainly wasn't the case in the epicenter of the whole controversy. We freely played home games and shopped at the local magic shop/game store One Eyed Jacques (which is where I bought all my games back then). I went to a Southern Baptist church, rolled up characters in the back of my English class, and openly carried my D&D books everywhere in Richmond. The most I ever got was questions from a curious person or two who had vaguely heard there was some controversy about the game and wanted to know what it was. Maybe some crazed pogrom was happening somewhere at the time (I know Janet Reno, et al., were trumping up charges against day care workers at the time), but at ground zero, the home of the notorious Pulling herself, it was far more of a media-driven sensationalist story than anything that affected our gaming or lives.
I was just up the road from you in Fredericksburg. My mom heard about all the fuss and asked me about it. I invited her to play so that she could see for herself what we were doing. She rolled up a BX elf and played a session with us. After that she ignored all BS and we played on.
I still go by One Eyed Jacques once in a while whenever we go to Carytown.
Glad to hear that One Eyed Jacques still exists. I was there numerous times when my older brother lived in Richmond in the 1980s. Bizarrely, I still dream of that place sometimes. Another place we went to was a wargame store in Cloverleaf Mall, which, like so many other malls, was later demolished.
Quote from: Mishihari on January 24, 2025, 12:37:10 AMWeird. I started playing in 1980 and am a lifelong member of a very conservative Christian church and heard nothing of it til I was in college in the early 90's. I assumed it was just a few random wacko. It probably helped that my first game was just my immediate family with my mom as DM. (I was 10)
This definitely seemed to not be a ubiquitous thing. Where it hit it could hit pretty hard though. The Satanic Panic didn't affect every region in the same way and sometimes you could have differences church to church. On the west coast I saw a lot of it, on the east coast no one seemed to care. While living out west I was in an area with a lot of conservative churches, and though my parents weren't themselves conservative, the church we went to and the people in our community tended to be. I think it is a mistake to think of it as a strictly conservative religious response because a lot of liberal christians and liberal people in general were also caught up in the Satanic Panic. Like I said, my parents were on the liberal side of things but equally concerned about satanic content in RPGs and music. And I saw plenty of parents who were not religious and not conservative but still concerned about RPGs because the Satanic Panic was promoting a narrative that D&D wasn't just satanic but distorted peoples ability to discern reality from fantasy, led to suicide and violent larping. I definitely saw a lot of conservative Christians involved too. But it wasn't the sole domain of the religious right and the religious right was so much more mainstream back then anyway (so you often had liberal people who agreed with a lot that the religious right had to say). I think part of it was D&D was this mysterious new activity gaining mainstream attention and it was easy to project a lot of fears that parents had about their children onto the game.
Quote from: Brad on January 23, 2025, 10:20:04 PMQuote from: Bedrockbrendan on January 23, 2025, 06:51:45 PMThe 700 club was pretty intensely on the anti-D&D train even well after the Satanic Panic ended. One of my favorite PSAs they used to run: https://youtu.be/kDJ1UOpxjt4?si=-21YOkBsnR3Ahtaw
That game looks super badass compared to a bunch of nerds playing D&D. Was this supposed to deter anyone?
Lol, well I think the implication is they were killing each other when their character died, so I'd pass, but I can't deny they did make it look cool lol.
I am pretty sure that is the TV spot that inspired this: https://youtu.be/-leYc4oC83E?si=xX7rsyYSDniU4YgN
Quote from: Mishihari on January 24, 2025, 12:37:10 AMWeird. I started playing in 1980 and am a lifelong member of a very conservative Christian church and heard nothing of it til I was in college in the early 90's. I assumed it was just a few random wacko. It probably helped that my first game was just my immediate family with my mom as DM. (I was 10)
Because it basically was. But they had media backing.
(I had the same experience as you...)No mainstream religious denominations leadership made any Official anti-D&D statement. Not the Catholic Church, LDS/Mormons, Baptists, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans. Not one of them.
The actual drivers of the 'D&D is the devil' portion of the satanic panic (SP), were a tiny handful of people: A karen, and a few theological grifters not tied to any particular christian denomination.
For some reason, the mainstream media of the time saw fit to give
them a national soapbox, for years.
While people like Michael A. Stackpole, and Tracy Hickman were sidelined...
Yes, 100%, some legit bad stuff happened to some kids in their teen years that were not cool. Not even a little bit. It sucked.
But the hard truth is that it happened because their parents, their friends parents, and their local pastor,
were fucking stupid.
They were
idiots that fell for a
media generated moral panic, hook, line, and sinker.
Compared to the number of people that played back then, the number that had bad experiences is a tiny minority.
But, because it happened in their formative years, those that had bad experiences are
Very vocal about it. Making their bad experiences "because Christianity" seem far more widespread than they actually were...
Mission accomplished.
Overall good video, I agree with it's primary thesis; that the satanic panic was in fact not a pysop, though to be sure certain elements of grifting were involved in that whole affair.
My Grandparents watched the 700 Club and were convinced that D&D had subliminal demonic elements in it, which lead to a bit of conflict between them and my parents.
That said the one point I find hard to accept is that the moralist movement of the Satanic Panic had some sort oracular insight on the future decay of our society. It's really quite the opposite, I'd go as far as to say they are the cause of it.
In the same way that Odin in the Prose Edda "predicted" Ragnarok, by trying to prevent the future he feared he inadvertently created it.
The Satanic Panic "creating" MAGA is only true in a round about sense, as the Satanic Panic created the leftists of the late 90s and early 2000s, which spawned the politics of those periods, which then had it's retort in MAGA. Perhaps the Right will learn it's lesson and not overstep as it did last time and create it's future enemies, but that is asking a lot.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 22, 2025, 06:27:18 PMThe secret history of the satanic panic! Also, how it changed American Christianity forever, and might be responsible for MAGA.
This was an excellent podcast.
As a GenXer who was into heavy metal and D&D, there's no doubt in my mind that the Satanic Panic was largely a sincere reflection of the religious right's fears. I had to hide my D&D books from my misguided but very earnest religious, midwestern mother. (Weirdly, she was more alarmed by D&D and metal than the cache of pornography she found.) It's very odd that someone would think it was a psyop. The infamous Chick tract on D&D is a fair indication that there was genuine, if ludicrous, concern about the game, among many other things.
There were definitely associations with "Satanic Cult" activity in 1980-81. I started the first D&D club at my high school. One day, we had a visit from two police from a nearby town that wanted to talk with us and observe a game because of some crimes in the nearby town that had the appearance of cult activity.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on January 24, 2025, 07:50:23 PMOverall good video, I agree with it's primary thesis; that the satanic panic was in fact not a pysop, though to be sure certain elements of grifting were involved in that whole affair.
My Grandparents watched the 700 Club and were convinced that D&D had subliminal demonic elements in it, which lead to a bit of conflict between them and my parents.
That said the one point I find hard to accept is that the moralist movement of the Satanic Panic had some sort oracular insight on the future decay of our society. It's really quite the opposite, I'd go as far as to say they are the cause of it.
In the same way that Odin in the Prose Edda "predicted" Ragnarok, by trying to prevent the future he feared he inadvertently created it.
The Satanic Panic "creating" MAGA is only true in a round about sense, as the Satanic Panic created the leftists of the late 90s and early 2000s, which spawned the politics of those periods, which then had it's retort in MAGA. Perhaps the Right will learn it's lesson and not overstep as it did last time and create it's future enemies, but that is asking a lot.
Well, as I've said, back in the mid-90s when the Religious right were saying that as people abandoned god society would be turned into a new Sodom & Gomorrah, I thought they were full of shit. I rejected the idea that Christianity would eventually be persecuted by a secular regime and there would be satanic altars in government buildings. I certainly didn't believe that the Gay Rights movement would eventually lead to the performance of sexual nudity, bondage, and fetishes in the open on the street and in front of children. Or that the gays/lesbians would try to "seduce" children into becoming crossdressers and other perversions.
I thought all of that was laughably ridiculous.
IT ALL CAME TRUE.
That's what happens when you take the religious core out of a society. But I didn't understand that at the time. Now I get the logical academic reasons for it, the historical precedent. But the religious people got that inherently, because the Bible is full of those examples, and amazing teachings about human nature.
They were wrong about D&D (and I was right), but they were right about the price of an aggressively secular "progressive" world, and I was completely wrong.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2025, 12:52:07 PMThey were wrong about D&D (and I was right), but they were right about the price of an aggressively secular "progressive" world, and I was completely wrong.
That's why as much as I think my mom is being stupid about D&D being "satanic", I do not fault her or any of the other Christians who railed against the incoming moral depravity. You can be wrong about something dumb, but being right about something that will destroy society...that's just infinitely more important.
And yes, I'm right there with you. When I was in college the first time around, I thought the whole devolution of the West was utterly retarded. When I started my PhD program, older and wiser, it was on full display and I watched it happen in real time. The campus where I teach now is, oddly enough, somewhat immune to this crap, thankfully, by virtue of nearly every single person in the administration and faculty being either Christian or polite enough not to say anything about it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2025, 12:52:07 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on January 24, 2025, 07:50:23 PMOverall good video, I agree with it's primary thesis; that the satanic panic was in fact not a pysop, though to be sure certain elements of grifting were involved in that whole affair.
My Grandparents watched the 700 Club and were convinced that D&D had subliminal demonic elements in it, which lead to a bit of conflict between them and my parents.
That said the one point I find hard to accept is that the moralist movement of the Satanic Panic had some sort oracular insight on the future decay of our society. It's really quite the opposite, I'd go as far as to say they are the cause of it.
In the same way that Odin in the Prose Edda "predicted" Ragnarok, by trying to prevent the future he feared he inadvertently created it.
The Satanic Panic "creating" MAGA is only true in a round about sense, as the Satanic Panic created the leftists of the late 90s and early 2000s, which spawned the politics of those periods, which then had it's retort in MAGA. Perhaps the Right will learn it's lesson and not overstep as it did last time and create it's future enemies, but that is asking a lot.
Well, as I've said, back in the mid-90s when the Religious right were saying that as people abandoned god society would be turned into a new Sodom & Gomorrah, I thought they were full of shit. I rejected the idea that Christianity would eventually be persecuted by a secular regime and there would be satanic altars in government buildings. I certainly didn't believe that the Gay Rights movement would eventually lead to the performance of sexual nudity, bondage, and fetishes in the open on the street and in front of children. Or that the gays/lesbians would try to "seduce" children into becoming crossdressers and other perversions.
I thought all of that was laughably ridiculous.
IT ALL CAME TRUE.
That's what happens when you take the religious core out of a society. But I didn't understand that at the time. Now I get the logical academic reasons for it, the historical precedent. But the religious people got that inherently, because the Bible is full of those examples, and amazing teachings about human nature.
They were wrong about D&D (and I was right), but they were right about the price of an aggressively secular "progressive" world, and I was completely wrong.
It is not hard to extrapolate what a Godless and degenerate society looks like, history is replete with them rising and falling. and Indeed the religious right was correct as to how things would pan out, what a shame they helped make a generation who equated morality with "No Fun" and thus doomed us to our present timeline.
How many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.
Quote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2025, 10:45:04 AMHow many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.
A grain of sand moving through the hourglass is not what makes time pass.
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 26, 2025, 10:55:59 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2025, 10:45:04 AMHow many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.
A grain of sand moving through the hourglass is not what makes time pass.
In fact, the observation of an event demonstrating the Second Law of Thermodynamics
is the definition of "time."
Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 26, 2025, 11:05:04 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on January 26, 2025, 10:55:59 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2025, 10:45:04 AMHow many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.
A grain of sand moving through the hourglass is not what makes time pass.
In fact, the observation of an event demonstrating the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the definition of "time."
correlation =/= causation
Quote from: HappyDaze on January 26, 2025, 12:48:18 PMQuote from: Eirikrautha on January 26, 2025, 11:05:04 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on January 26, 2025, 10:55:59 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2025, 10:45:04 AMHow many kids turned away from religion because the Satanic Panic taught them religious leaders didn't know what they were talking about? Sad on so many levels.
A grain of sand moving through the hourglass is not what makes time pass.
In fact, the observation of an event demonstrating the Second Law of Thermodynamics is the definition of "time."
correlation =/= causation
"Eppur si muove."
This was a really good video. I knew about the Satanic Panic and had a general inkling it had been caused by grifters of some sort, but never had the names to do anything like a sensible search.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2025, 12:52:07 PMThey were wrong about D&D (and I was right), but they were right about the price of an aggressively secular "progressive" world, and I was completely wrong.
Let me speak as someone on the religious right: religious communities have fools who are easily manipulated and more than a few grifters, but there are also metaphorical prophets who can see social forces working decades in advance. My own example has nothing to do with the Satanic Panic, but Francis Shaeffer's How Should We Then Live book/ video series. The later sections which pivot from historical study to future projections practically spelled out large stretches of the Democrat playbook from 2010 to 2025.
The book was written in 1975.
Returning to the moral slippery slope; liberalism of the 90s and early 2000s had a fatal flaw in that it constantly underestimated the human potential for malice and corruption. Christian religious figures especially tend to be much more pessimistic about human behavior, with doctrines and beliefs ranging from original sin to spiritual warfare.
It's my general opinion that liberalism of the 00s was pushed down by people wanting power. And I don't just mean politicians; Anita Sarkeesian wanted reputation and influence and was more than willing to stretch the truth to get it.
Humpty Dumpty was pushed. But at the same time, Humpty Dumpty wasn't exactly braced against anything to stop from getting pushed over, so Humpty Dumpty was definitely going to fall. It was just a question of how and when and who was going to try to capitalize on the power grab.
The shocking thing isn't that it happened, but that it basically happened the moment liberals thought the religious right was out of the way. There was no hesitation; this was premeditated action. In fact, part of the problem they had is that they got impatient and did it too soon. And that speaks volumes to the religious people having the generally better understanding of humanity than liberals.
Fortunately, the right also changed, including the religious right. Being forced to become more ecumenical to operate as a voting bloc meant that they gradually became more focused on the core common issues, and less likely to go nuts about someone playing with miniatures and strange dice.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 27, 2025, 07:21:08 AMFortunately, the right also changed, including the religious right. Being forced to become more ecumenical to operate as a voting bloc meant that they gradually became more focused on the core common issues, and less likely to go nuts about someone playing with miniatures and strange dice.
I don't know that it was so much the Right changing (or even that they were the prime mover in the persecution), so much as it was the vehicle that the moral busybodies (what we today call Karens) were using and have since moved on to more modern venues to assert authority over other people's lives.
Remember, Tipper Gore was one of the bigger voices behind the "Moral Majority." It was only the Right in the sense that it valued religion, but in terms of politics, it spread from extreme Republicans to the most radical of Democrats.
These puritanicals glommed onto Christianity because until recently, it was THE vehicle for exerting influence over American society. The Scolding Church Lady was a real thing. But with rise of The State now as the prime influence over society the Scolds abandoned conservative religion for petitioning the State to crush those who refuse to be as miserable as they are.
And that's the common thread between the scolds of The Satanic Panic and the modern WokeScold infesting modern RPGs... miserable cat ladies using whichever was the effective lever of power for the time trying to ruin everyone else's fun because they're miserable and want everyone else to be too.
Quote from: Brad on January 23, 2025, 10:20:04 PMQuote from: Bedrockbrendan on January 23, 2025, 06:51:45 PMThe 700 club was pretty intensely on the anti-D&D train even well after the Satanic Panic ended. One of my favorite PSAs they used to run: https://youtu.be/kDJ1UOpxjt4?si=-21YOkBsnR3Ahtaw
That game looks super badass compared to a bunch of nerds playing D&D. Was this supposed to deter anyone?
No kidding. That's how we started. Now... we've reached apotheosis.
https://youtu.be/R0S8JZ6YO5c?si=tQF8kC4vQ9mNdLV-
Quote from: Fheredin on January 26, 2025, 10:20:25 PMReturning to the moral slippery slope; liberalism of the 90s and early 2000s had a fatal flaw in that it constantly underestimated the human potential for malice and corruption. Christian religious figures especially tend to be much more pessimistic about human behavior, with doctrines and beliefs ranging from original sin to spiritual warfare.
It's my general opinion that liberalism of the 00s was pushed down by people wanting power. And I don't just mean politicians; Anita Sarkeesian wanted reputation and influence and was more than willing to stretch the truth to get it. Humpty Dumpty was pushed. But at the same time, Humpty Dumpty wasn't exactly braced against anything to stop from getting pushed over, so Humpty Dumpty was definitely going to fall. It was just a question of how and when and who was going to try to capitalize on the power grab.
The shocking thing isn't that it happened, but that it basically happened the moment liberals thought the religious right was out of the way. There was no hesitation; this was premeditated action. In fact, part of the problem they had is that they got impatient and did it too soon. And that speaks volumes to the religious people having the generally better understanding of humanity than liberals.
There are a lot of liberal religious people. Both in the 1990s and today, being religious in general isn't a great predictor of Democrat/Republican - no better than gender or race.
Type of religion is a much better predictor. Evangelical Protestant skews strongly Republican, while Jewish or historically-black Protestant skews Democrat. Catholics are close to 50/50 currently.
In the 1990s, there was a lot of positivity in general about future progress, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the spread of democracy. This lead to Americans in general having a more rosy view of humanity. Many of the more overly optimistic views were dashed with 9/11. On the other hand, that was a result of much of the negativity of the 1980s being shown wrong.
In general, whoever currently has the most power will use the most popular levers to try to exert control over the population. That's a given. The big question is how violent and how effective the control is.
I'm personally more pessimistic now than in the late 1990s, particular because of the effectiveness of social media as a tool of manipulation. Still, I have hope that people will organize to rein that in - maybe not in the next few years, but over decades.
Quote from: jhkim on January 27, 2025, 12:03:25 PMI'm personally more pessimistic now than in the late 1990s, particular because of the effectiveness of social media as a tool of manipulation. Still, I have hope that people will organize to rein that in - maybe not in the next few years, but over decades.
Twitter's emancipation is a good sign.
Wait til the AI cults start organizing.
Quote from: jhkim on January 27, 2025, 12:03:25 PMQuote from: Fheredin on January 26, 2025, 10:20:25 PMReturning to the moral slippery slope; liberalism of the 90s and early 2000s had a fatal flaw in that it constantly underestimated the human potential for malice and corruption. Christian religious figures especially tend to be much more pessimistic about human behavior, with doctrines and beliefs ranging from original sin to spiritual warfare.
It's my general opinion that liberalism of the 00s was pushed down by people wanting power. And I don't just mean politicians; Anita Sarkeesian wanted reputation and influence and was more than willing to stretch the truth to get it. Humpty Dumpty was pushed. But at the same time, Humpty Dumpty wasn't exactly braced against anything to stop from getting pushed over, so Humpty Dumpty was definitely going to fall. It was just a question of how and when and who was going to try to capitalize on the power grab.
The shocking thing isn't that it happened, but that it basically happened the moment liberals thought the religious right was out of the way. There was no hesitation; this was premeditated action. In fact, part of the problem they had is that they got impatient and did it too soon. And that speaks volumes to the religious people having the generally better understanding of humanity than liberals.
There are a lot of liberal religious people. Both in the 1990s and today, being religious in general isn't a great predictor of Democrat/Republican - no better than gender or race.
Type of religion is a much better predictor. Evangelical Protestant skews strongly Republican, while Jewish or historically-black Protestant skews Democrat. Catholics are close to 50/50 currently.
In the 1990s, there was a lot of positivity in general about future progress, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the spread of democracy. This lead to Americans in general having a more rosy view of humanity. Many of the more overly optimistic views were dashed with 9/11. On the other hand, that was a result of much of the negativity of the 1980s being shown wrong.
In general, whoever currently has the most power will use the most popular levers to try to exert control over the population. That's a given. The big question is how violent and how effective the control is.
I'm personally more pessimistic now than in the late 1990s, particular because of the effectiveness of social media as a tool of manipulation. Still, I have hope that people will organize to rein that in - maybe not in the next few years, but over decades.
Being blunt; liberal religious people have a long history of being practically a non-factor in politics. For decades abortion has been a Catholic issue where the leadership and teachers expressed clear strongly negative views while the laity generally dismisses their leadership almost out of hand. And this kind of phenomenon is far from unique to Catholics (although they may have a worse case of it than Protestants on average.) I have to conclude that for many religious liberals, unless they are in church leadership, the religion yields to liberalism practically categorically. And I suppose it's worth noting that religious liberalism is less of a thing after COVID, anyways; lockdowns ended a great deal of church attendance, with liberal churches taking a disproportionate loss.
That said, it is generally my conclusion that I don't want to sit around and do nothing as the internet gets worse. Sure, we have islands of the internet yesteryear like this site, but we also have a great deal of sites where things are actively getting worse. And by worse, I don't mean a rise of liberalism. I would be fine with liberalism if they stuck to their guns on the inclusive mandate from 15-20 years ago. I mean replacing rational discussion with a midwit inquisition like you see in places like Bluesky and TBP.
It's my conclusion that to make an internet community which can both stand the pressures of this era and to stand the needs of the future, you need to discuss monetization, governance, and sustainability all in a single social contract and have a critical mass of users understand all three pillars simultaneously. Most web communities talk one, maybe two.
For example, X's big problem right now is that they don't have great ways to monetize. TBP's big problem right now is that the community's governance has no consequences for mishandling platform governance, and has turned into a sandwich of sewage as a result. Everyone on smaller websites are getting their finances rug-pulled right now because banner advertisement revenue rates on most websites are through the floor.
This is also the core reason for "enshitification." Websites and web services start with only one pillar well defined, but when they need to bring another of these pillars online, it disrupts the social contract that current users are expecting. You have to pass all three parts of the social contract of the website simultaneously.
And I do want to emphasize sustainability as a subtle pillar most people will miss on their first brainstorm. Sustainability is what will eventually kill Youtube and Google, with their absolutely bananas storage demands, and it's a key reason I think that stuff like decentralized hosting on IPFS or ARWEAVE or directly on a blockchain is functionally unobtainium. If you try to host a web community on something like ARWEAVE and storage prices sneeze? There goes your community. Sustainability is one of those concerns that doesn't matter until it's suddenly the only thing that matters.
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 27, 2025, 09:20:59 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on January 27, 2025, 07:21:08 AMFortunately, the right also changed, including the religious right. Being forced to become more ecumenical to operate as a voting bloc meant that they gradually became more focused on the core common issues, and less likely to go nuts about someone playing with miniatures and strange dice.
I don't know that it was so much the Right changing (or even that they were the prime mover in the persecution), so much as it was the vehicle that the moral busybodies (what we today call Karens) were using and have since moved on to more modern venues to assert authority over other people's lives.
Remember, Tipper Gore was one of the bigger voices behind the "Moral Majority." It was only the Right in the sense that it valued religion, but in terms of politics, it spread from extreme Republicans to the most radical of Democrats.
These puritanicals glommed onto Christianity because until recently, it was THE vehicle for exerting influence over American society. The Scolding Church Lady was a real thing. But with rise of The State now as the prime influence over society the Scolds abandoned conservative religion for petitioning the State to crush those who refuse to be as miserable as they are.
And that's the common thread between the scolds of The Satanic Panic and the modern WokeScold infesting modern RPGs... miserable cat ladies using whichever was the effective lever of power for the time trying to ruin everyone else's fun because they're miserable and want everyone else to be too.
Well said!
I agree that some of the people who would have become the moral busybody "church ladies" in the 1980s are today instead becoming Hillary-voting childless cat ladies. The core element wasn't religion for them, it was finding a socially-approved means of interfering in other people's lives.
But that shows how much change has taken place.
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 29, 2025, 08:25:08 AMI agree that some of the people who would have become the moral busybody "church ladies" in the 1980s are today instead becoming Hillary-voting childless cat ladies. The core element wasn't religion for them, it was finding a socially-approved means of interfering in other people's lives.
But that shows how much change has taken place.
I agree with the statement, just not in the way you probably intend.
Its not like the scolds began in the 80s. They were scolds of Rock & Roll before that, and of behavior in the roaring 20's before that, and... you get the picture.
The only thing that's really changed is we stopped stigmatizing the scold (sort of). Even as late as the 1980's mainstream media mocked the Scold. Little House on the Prairie had Mrs. Olsen as a scold to be overcome and mocked. SNL's Church Lady skits were absolutely mocking what today would be just another Karen. In past centuries dunking, stocks and other public humiliations were inflicted on scolds.
I say "kind of" because even today we mock people as "Karens" so its not like the stigma is gone entirely.
I think the key as relates to the Satanic Panic and modern WokeScolds is that to get around their stigma they chose already marginal targets... D&D was mostly played by the uncool kids so it was a target that would have few defenders to them flexing their moral busybody muscles. Their attempts at influence target authorities who will go along with whatever causes the least disruption. Uncool kids getting dumpec on more is about as undisruptive as it gets.
That's why the modern WokeScold couches all their attempts at influence in terms of various "moral evils"; Racism, sexism, colonialism, etc. The goal is to paint the target as someone not worth defending just like the uncool kids playing D&D in the 80s.
In other words, I'd say very little has changed at all. The walls have a new coat of paint, but it's still the same miserable people upset that others aren't doing what they want running the shop.
Human nature is human nature whether it's AD 2025, AD 1025, or 1025 BC. The scolds have always been with us just as the social outcasts they enjoy targeting have been.
Well, you're not wrong. But the change is that they're now much less likely to be using a religious context for their scolding.