Quote from: RPGPundit on December 30, 2024, 08:46:27 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 29, 2024, 09:21:42 PMMy idea for magic is for it to be variable. 

Casting a spell to bend a spoon you're holding is easier than a spell to lift an army tank out of the mud from a mile away.

Both are telekinesis.

Let the GM set the target number for each time you cast a spell.

The target number can even change every time, even for the exact same task.  Why?  It's magic. It waxes and wanes based on mysterious patterns that nobody knows about. 

Fixed effects for fixed costs with exact numbers shouldn't be a thing.

Yes, and that reduces the number of spells you need. You don't need multiple healing spells, just multiple difficulties on the check necessary to cure stuff. You don't need dozens of attack spells, you just need different difficulties depending on the strength of the spell you want to cast, and maybe variations on the type of damage it does (ie. fire vs cold vs lightning).

The Genesys magic system from Realms of Terrinoth does that. Magic is splint into categories of effect (I think 7 or 8...) and each type of caster can only use 5 (IIRC) categories. This is the "wizards don't heal" block as typically seen in D&D. However, you can "build" your effects within each category with the total giving the Difficulty and possibly impacting the Strain of the casting. It's a nice little system.

I think Spheres of Power is a must here

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 30, 2024, 02:27:59 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 29, 2024, 09:21:42 PMThe target number can even change every time, even for the exact same task.  Why?  It's magic. It waxes and wanes based on mysterious patterns that nobody knows about.

Can't say as I or any of my players would like that. In most heroic fantasy game settings, magic is generally well understood and fairly predictable (even when it is not, such as "chaos magic"). When it stops following those rules, it's generally a big problem that PC-types have to go fix.

I think this is root of the problem. Most fantasy game settings magic is well-understood, predictable, and fits with a scientific world view.

This is different from magic in most literary settings like Middle Earth, Narnia, Amber, etc. -- where magic has a wondrous and/or mysterious quality to it.

Though being random and arbitrary isn't the same as being wondrous and mysterious. To be mysterious, there has to be hidden things to be learned from magic - so the waxing and waning should be something that the players can find out more about - though there could still be further mystery to it.

Quote from: jhkim on December 30, 2024, 02:19:17 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 30, 2024, 02:27:59 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 29, 2024, 09:21:42 PMThe target number can even change every time, even for the exact same task.  Why?  It's magic. It waxes and wanes based on mysterious patterns that nobody knows about.

Can't say as I or any of my players would like that. In most heroic fantasy game settings, magic is generally well understood and fairly predictable (even when it is not, such as "chaos magic"). When it stops following those rules, it's generally a big problem that PC-types have to go fix.

I think this is root of the problem. Most fantasy game settings magic is well-understood, predictable, and fits with a scientific world view.

This is different from magic in most literary settings like Middle Earth, Narnia, Amber, etc. -- where magic has a wondrous and/or mysterious quality to it.

Though being random and arbitrary isn't the same as being wondrous and mysterious. To be mysterious, there has to be hidden things to be learned from magic - so the waxing and waning should be something that the players can find out more about - though there could still be further mystery to it.

I've been toying with the idea lately that in order to keep magic in a fantasy game (for lack of a better word) "magical", you simply cannot let PCs have access to it. As soon as you put magic in the hands of PCs, you have to make it obey consistent game rules, and that necessarily disenchants the game world. Maybe the most you can do is let the players get hold of magical artifacts they don't even really understand the use of, but giving them the spell rules I think always cheapens the magic to a degree. On top of that, I don't think you can ever really have a "low magic" game world if your players can easily access magic, and if you can make a magician at character creation, that's easy access as far as I'm concerned.

I've been considering trying to put this into a practice and run a fantasy campaign where PCs simply cannot be spellcasters, but I strongly suspect the expectation of being able to play a wizard is so entrenched in fantasy gaming that I would not be able to get players for it.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 30, 2024, 03:57:27 PMI've been considering trying to put this into a practice and run a fantasy campaign where PCs simply cannot be spellcasters, but I strongly suspect the expectation of being able to play a wizard is so entrenched in fantasy gaming that I would not be able to get players for it.

  There's The One Ring and Pendragon, but those are very specific flavors of fantasy. It's an experiment I've wanted to try as well. If you want something in the d20 vein, I think FantasyCraft is going to be the best starting point.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 30, 2024, 03:57:27 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 30, 2024, 02:19:17 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 30, 2024, 02:27:59 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 29, 2024, 09:21:42 PMThe target number can even change every time, even for the exact same task.  Why?  It's magic. It waxes and wanes based on mysterious patterns that nobody knows about.

Can't say as I or any of my players would like that. In most heroic fantasy game settings, magic is generally well understood and fairly predictable (even when it is not, such as "chaos magic"). When it stops following those rules, it's generally a big problem that PC-types have to go fix.

I think this is root of the problem. Most fantasy game settings magic is well-understood, predictable, and fits with a scientific world view.

This is different from magic in most literary settings like Middle Earth, Narnia, Amber, etc. -- where magic has a wondrous and/or mysterious quality to it.

Though being random and arbitrary isn't the same as being wondrous and mysterious. To be mysterious, there has to be hidden things to be learned from magic - so the waxing and waning should be something that the players can find out more about - though there could still be further mystery to it.

I've been toying with the idea lately that in order to keep magic in a fantasy game (for lack of a better word) "magical", you simply cannot let PCs have access to it. As soon as you put magic in the hands of PCs, you have to make it obey consistent game rules, and that necessarily disenchants the game world. Maybe the most you can do is let the players get hold of magical artifacts they don't even really understand the use of, but giving them the spell rules I think always cheapens the magic to a degree. On top of that, I don't think you can ever really have a "low magic" game world if your players can easily access magic, and if you can make a magician at character creation, that's easy access as far as I'm concerned.

I've been considering trying to put this into a practice and run a fantasy campaign where PCs simply cannot be spellcasters, but I strongly suspect the expectation of being able to play a wizard is so entrenched in fantasy gaming that I would not be able to get players for it.

Well, I heard from a pretty credible source that originally Gary Gygax didn't want to let players play magic-users in D&D.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 30, 2024, 04:37:53 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 30, 2024, 03:57:27 PMI've been considering trying to put this into a practice and run a fantasy campaign where PCs simply cannot be spellcasters, but I strongly suspect the expectation of being able to play a wizard is so entrenched in fantasy gaming that I would not be able to get players for it.

  There's The One Ring and Pendragon, but those are very specific flavors of fantasy. It's an experiment I've wanted to try as well. If you want something in the d20 vein, I think FantasyCraft is going to be the best starting point.

OK, but D&D is also a very specific, limited flavor of fantasy. I agree with Pundit that while D&D has inspirations, it really is doing it's own thing. Especially in magic, it is creating its own subgenre that doesn't emulate anything else.

It's a subjective things, but I feel like magic can remain fairly magical even with PC magic-users as long as the GM keeps up mysterious elements to it - secrets that are beyond player knowledge, but that they can make some progress on. It has worked for me in some campaigns like Call of Cthulhu, Amber Diceless, and RuneQuest - as well as various homebrews.

For example, in my RuneQuest-based vikings game, there was a PC viking shaman who learned more about the spirits of the new land as well as engaging in dream quests for their own spirits. In Amber games (both ones that I played and GMed), it was common for the GM to reveal new secrets about the structure of the universe - revealing strange new shadows and powers and such. Call of Cthulhu similarly would often have new secrets being revealed (often horrifying ones, of course).

One of my favorite RPG's is Pocket Fantasy.  It is super rules lite.

Magic consists of six known combat spells.  These don't change. 

Out of combat a wizard can cast anything they want, but the GM sets the difficulty number for the spell, or may even make it impossible. The only rule is summoned things have a duration of 1 day. 

A wizard gets two combat per fight, every fight.  Out of combat they get two spells per session. 

Turning in re-roll tokens can be used to cast additional combat and non-combat spells. 

If a wizard wants to cast a spell on a farmer's house to repair the roof, go for it.  Difficulty is simple. 3-6 on a 1D6. Want to conjure up a small castle out of thin air to sleep in for the night.  Ok, not a big deal as a GM I wasn't planning to mess with the party during the night, so why not?  Average difficulty.  A 4-6 on a 1D6. 

But running from the litch they just woke up the party needs a heavily barred door open, and right now!  Ok, I am not going to let my Players escape every fight.  They've already teleported to safety the last three boss fights.  This is getting to be a habit.  A bad habit.  Not this time.  It's a very difficult spell because of the rush, and the winds of magic are not cooperating, plus the stars for it are out of alignment or some other BS.  Either way, using magic to bypass a danger isn't the GM's plan. The difficulty is set to max, or even denied.

That's a magic system with a variable difficulty number that works for me

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 30, 2024, 04:37:53 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 30, 2024, 03:57:27 PMI've been considering trying to put this into a practice and run a fantasy campaign where PCs simply cannot be spellcasters, but I strongly suspect the expectation of being able to play a wizard is so entrenched in fantasy gaming that I would not be able to get players for it.

  There's The One Ring and Pendragon, but those are very specific flavors of fantasy. It's an experiment I've wanted to try as well. If you want something in the d20 vein, I think FantasyCraft is going to be the best starting point.

Interesting suggestion. Why would you pick that one?

My first instinct would be to go for something very rules-light and open-ended, on the grounds that if your players can't use magic to solve their problems, they need to be able to leverage their creativity to the utmost. Plus, if you're trying to keep magic abstract, seems like a more abstract game would complement that.

I've generally written off FantasyCraft in the past, just because it seems too fiddly, too many moving parts for my taste. However I do think you'd want a game with a skill system for such a campaign, and cutting out player magic would trim down the system significantly.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 30, 2024, 05:41:35 PMWell, I heard from a pretty credible source that originally Gary Gygax didn't want to let players play magic-users in D&D.

If Uncle Gary couldn't hold the line on it, that doesn't bode well for my chances.

Quote from: jhkim on December 30, 2024, 06:26:26 PMOK, but D&D is also a very specific, limited flavor of fantasy. I agree with Pundit that while D&D has inspirations, it really is doing it's own thing. Especially in magic, it is creating its own subgenre that doesn't emulate anything else.

It's a subjective things, but I feel like magic can remain fairly magical even with PC magic-users as long as the GM keeps up mysterious elements to it - secrets that are beyond player knowledge, but that they can make some progress on. It has worked for me in some campaigns like Call of Cthulhu, Amber Diceless, and RuneQuest - as well as various homebrews.

For example, in my RuneQuest-based vikings game, there was a PC viking shaman who learned more about the spirits of the new land as well as engaging in dream quests for their own spirits. In Amber games (both ones that I played and GMed), it was common for the GM to reveal new secrets about the structure of the universe - revealing strange new shadows and powers and such. Call of Cthulhu similarly would often have new secrets being revealed (often horrifying ones, of course).

I think Call of Cthulhu's approach, where no one really begins the game as a magician and you have to learn little bits of magic as the campaign proceeds, is one that's worth trying to emulate in a more conventional fantasy milieu. I also like the idea that several games have played with, where spells have to be found and equipped or attuned, and then you need a sufficient attribute or skill level to use them. That's what I'm using in my own game, if I ever get around to finishing it.

Somewhat unrelated, but another thing I'd like to try doing is medieval-style fantasy with only psionics. A compromise I've considered related to this topic is a campaign setting in which psychic powers are relatively common and available to PCs, but magic of the more traditional flavor is the province of a few NPCs only. Outside of the Lone Wolf books, I don't think I've seen that approach taken.

EDIT: I just realized that arguably Carcosa takes the same approach I just mentioned, but that's more science fiction/fantasy than medieval fantasy.

D&D may be the 800lb gorilla, but its magic system is awful.

There.  I said it.  I don't like Vancian magic. 

I'm more used to magic having an energy point system. Palladium books for example. 

Along with 50 years of D&D we have 49 years and 11 months of this complaint. I like the retro criticism though.

Maybe you can do a video on how you can make combat more realistic with parry and dodge rules next.

QuoteWell, I heard from a pretty credible source that originally Gary Gygax didn't want to let players play magic-users in D&D.

You mean like his own character, Mordenkainen? Or his son's character, Tenser?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 30, 2024, 10:23:25 PMD&D may be the 800lb gorilla, but its magic system is awful.

There.  I said it.  I don't like Vancian magic. 

I'm more used to magic being an energy point system. Palladium books for example. 

I always loved Earthdawn's magic system...at least until I tried running a game with full-on Thread Weaving. Very cool, but a shit-ton of book-keeping.

I've been messing around with a magic system in an RPG I've been noodling around with developing, where there are variants of some spells.  Stronger versions of the spell use the prefix, "Bi-" or "Tri-" to identify them.  Stronger variants require greater magic abilities to cast, have a greater cost, but require the same roll result to cast successfully.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 30, 2024, 03:57:27 PMI've been toying with the idea lately that in order to keep magic in a fantasy game (for lack of a better word) "magical", you simply cannot let PCs have access to it. As soon as you put magic in the hands of PCs, you have to make it obey consistent game rules, and that necessarily disenchants the game world. Maybe the most you can do is let the players get hold of magical artifacts they don't even really understand the use of, but giving them the spell rules I think always cheapens the magic to a degree. On top of that, I don't think you can ever really have a "low magic" game world if your players can easily access magic, and if you can make a magician at character creation, that's easy access as far as I'm concerned.

I've been considering trying to put this into a practice and run a fantasy campaign where PCs simply cannot be spellcasters, but I strongly suspect the expectation of being able to play a wizard is so entrenched in fantasy gaming that I would not be able to get players for it.

I think there are limits to how much you can "get away with" for most players, and that does necessarily take out some of the mystery of magic.  Plus, it's just a plain hassle for the GM in many cases, whereas I'm always looking for ways to put things back on the players--where it doesn't hurt too much.

That said, there's no reason to take things to the infinite conclusion, either.  Oh well, magic isn't perfectly mysterious, so we'll make it utterly bland--so "scientific" that's it is more rigid and symmetrical than real world science.  I think there's a happy excluded middle to play in.

Some of the things I'm doing along those lines:

- Magic is somewhat siloed by definition (in my setting/rules).  Yeah, a PC can get access to the Faerie magic tradition, but when he does, it rules out his mind/body/soul being able to perform Celestial, Primeval, or Wizardry traditional magic.  To reinforce this, there are ZERO cross-over spells in the traditions. There are some similar effects, but done with at least slight differences in both flavor and utility.  When you get some magic, you are automatically excluded from doing a lot of other things that magic can do.

- Take a note from Runequest. Make "common" magic that anyone can learn (within the constraints above) is not always the most powerful.  It's useful, but not all encompassing.

- Magic accessible to players is not all the magic. There are specialty spells that not just anyone can learn, though during play a character will stumble across some of these spells and might get lucky enough to learn a handful of them. That doesn't translate to a later character. The GM can afford to take some risks here with custom spells, because each one is so niche, for player purposes it often dies with the PC.

- Not coincidentally, this makes magic not very attractive to some players, who will naturally gravitate towards characters who can do a wide range of things through mundane means. This makes the magic that is left seem a little more mysterious to the party as a whole, if not the players of the casters.