"The population of Krynn has always been mostly Tabaxi..."
What motivates WoTC to destroy Canon in D&D...
Steel production is bad for the environment so all non industrial or tool use of steel is terrible....so after the cataclysm they used lacquered leaves for currency.
"Why do they want to erase everything prior to 2014?"
Because it is part of their attempt, at an ascendancy to godhood.
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.
Quote from: Flipped Bird on July 29, 2021, 06:19:37 AM
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.
Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2021, 10:28:43 AM
Quote from: Flipped Bird on July 29, 2021, 06:19:37 AM
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.
Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"
(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2021, 10:37:55 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2021, 10:28:43 AM
Quote from: Flipped Bird on July 29, 2021, 06:19:37 AM
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.
Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"
(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
To be fair, in the sense that the original modules associated with the first trilogy were arguably Dragonlance at its best and COULD be played using your own PCs instead of the pre-gens if desired, I get the sentiment of "what if the pre-gens never met in the tavern and it's up to your PC's to save the world."
It's basically the same tact that worked REALLY well for 4E Dark Sun of rebooting the setting back to the situation at the start of the associated novel series where turmoil and adventure opportunities were most plentiful.
To be further fair, back in 2012-14 when 5e was coming together the project was not yet derangedly Woke either (the rise of the Orange Man had not yet driven them insane) so the initial setting material likely would not have changed the setting nearly as radically as if they were attempting a redo it today.
Honestly, a 5e centered around a redo of the original Dragonlance trilogy with players creating their own protagonists to adventure in a world dominated by the evil Dragon Armies is actually a really good idea that probably would have smoothed out a few things... ex. One of the earliest options for Dragonborn in 4E was alternate racial features to use them as Draconians so having a Draconian racial entry in the core book would have appealed to the nostalgia of the older fans and fit the setting perfectly.
That said, I'm done being pissed about what WotC does to their own settings. I care only in the academic sense of noting what they're doing wrong because every fan they piss off is another potential customer I could pick up.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 29, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2021, 10:37:55 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2021, 10:28:43 AM
Quote from: Flipped Bird on July 29, 2021, 06:19:37 AM
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.
Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"
(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
To be fair, in the sense that the original modules associated with the first trilogy were arguably Dragonlance at its best and COULD be played using your own PCs instead of the pre-gens if desired, I get the sentiment of "what if the pre-gens never met in the tavern and it's up to your PC's to save the world."
It's basically the same tact that worked REALLY well for 4E Dark Sun of rebooting the setting back to the situation at the start of the associated novel series where turmoil and adventure opportunities were most plentiful.
To be further fair, back in 2012-14 when 5e was coming together the project was not yet derangedly Woke either (the rise of the Orange Man had not yet driven them insane) so the initial setting material likely would not have changed the setting nearly as radically as if they were attempting a redo it today.
Honestly, a 5e centered around a redo of the original Dragonlance trilogy with players creating their own protagonists to adventure in a world dominated by the evil Dragon Armies is actually a really good idea that probably would have smoothed out a few things... ex. One of the earliest options for Dragonborn in 4E was alternate racial features to use them as Draconians so having a Draconian racial entry in the core book would have appealed to the nostalgia of the older fans and fit the setting perfectly.
That said, I'm done being pissed about what WotC does to their own settings. I care only in the academic sense of noting what they're doing wrong because every fan they piss off is another potential customer I could pick up.
Ah, well said. Yeah, that makes more sense.
But frankly, I wouldn't trust WotC to not fuck it up.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2021, 11:13:21 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 29, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2021, 10:37:55 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2021, 10:28:43 AM
Quote from: Flipped Bird on July 29, 2021, 06:19:37 AM
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.
Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"
(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
To be fair, in the sense that the original modules associated with the first trilogy were arguably Dragonlance at its best and COULD be played using your own PCs instead of the pre-gens if desired, I get the sentiment of "what if the pre-gens never met in the tavern and it's up to your PC's to save the world."
It's basically the same tact that worked REALLY well for 4E Dark Sun of rebooting the setting back to the situation at the start of the associated novel series where turmoil and adventure opportunities were most plentiful.
To be further fair, back in 2012-14 when 5e was coming together the project was not yet derangedly Woke either (the rise of the Orange Man had not yet driven them insane) so the initial setting material likely would not have changed the setting nearly as radically as if they were attempting a redo it today.
Honestly, a 5e centered around a redo of the original Dragonlance trilogy with players creating their own protagonists to adventure in a world dominated by the evil Dragon Armies is actually a really good idea that probably would have smoothed out a few things... ex. One of the earliest options for Dragonborn in 4E was alternate racial features to use them as Draconians so having a Draconian racial entry in the core book would have appealed to the nostalgia of the older fans and fit the setting perfectly.
That said, I'm done being pissed about what WotC does to their own settings. I care only in the academic sense of noting what they're doing wrong because every fan they piss off is another potential customer I could pick up.
Ah, well said. Yeah, that makes more sense.
But frankly, I wouldn't trust WotC to not fuck it up.
I see you're familiar with their track record.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2021, 11:13:21 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 29, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2021, 10:37:55 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2021, 10:28:43 AM
Quote from: Flipped Bird on July 29, 2021, 06:19:37 AM
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.
Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"
(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
To be fair, in the sense that the original modules associated with the first trilogy were arguably Dragonlance at its best and COULD be played using your own PCs instead of the pre-gens if desired, I get the sentiment of "what if the pre-gens never met in the tavern and it's up to your PC's to save the world."
It's basically the same tact that worked REALLY well for 4E Dark Sun of rebooting the setting back to the situation at the start of the associated novel series where turmoil and adventure opportunities were most plentiful.
To be further fair, back in 2012-14 when 5e was coming together the project was not yet derangedly Woke either (the rise of the Orange Man had not yet driven them insane) so the initial setting material likely would not have changed the setting nearly as radically as if they were attempting a redo it today.
Honestly, a 5e centered around a redo of the original Dragonlance trilogy with players creating their own protagonists to adventure in a world dominated by the evil Dragon Armies is actually a really good idea that probably would have smoothed out a few things... ex. One of the earliest options for Dragonborn in 4E was alternate racial features to use them as Draconians so having a Draconian racial entry in the core book would have appealed to the nostalgia of the older fans and fit the setting perfectly.
That said, I'm done being pissed about what WotC does to their own settings. I care only in the academic sense of noting what they're doing wrong because every fan they piss off is another potential customer I could pick up.
Ah, well said. Yeah, that makes more sense.
But frankly, I wouldn't trust WotC to not fuck it up.
I would trust 2012-14 WotC to do about as well with it as they did with the 5e core (take that as you will).
I wouldn't let 2021 WotC within a country mile of anything I actually cared about.
Quote from: Robert ConquestThe behavior of any bureaucratic organization can best be understood by assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies.
Not sure if WotC exhibits the same characteristics because they are that bureaucratic or because Mr. Conquest was insufficiently broad in his application of that idea.
I think Krynn is a dumb choice for a center setting. It's a reaction to the tropes of prior settings. Without those prior settings to compare its proposed changes with it goes from seeming different to merely having some quirks. Krynn is there to provide a contrast with the more conventional settings like Greyhawk or Blackmoor or The Forgotten Realms Tolkien pastiche.
1. The gods have been gone or at least under cover and suddenly they are coming back and sweeping away the false religion that more or less banned their worship. The dragons are returning as well as a new invading race of Draconian dragon men.
2. There was a cataclysm, later explained as a punishment from the gods where a meteor or asteroid destroyed the world equivalent of Rome at the height of its power. The cataclysm altered the land scape, brought gold in such high amounts that the metal lost its potential to be used as a currency metal. The gods left mankind to their own devices and in this time the dragons disappeared as well.
3. The gods were somehow formally organized into something like a government where one coming back brought others, their counterparts back as well as if some sort of arms limitation treaty was in effect. When they come back to Krynn directly their constellation reflects that by becoming invisible.
4. The mages being sorted into good, evil, and, neutral schools with some ability to change from one to the other and that have their own governing moon one of which is only visible to its followers is it's own strange thing.
5. Some of the races are altered somewhat. Kender replace halflings being loud, capricious, athletic, and rather child like rather than homesy stable slightly dumpy types.
6. Krynn as an alternate material plane originally, and a different planetary sphere in the void later on(Spelljammer compatibility), takes a figure from the normal setting, Tiamat the Chromatic dragon, and changes the alignment from lawful evil to chaotic evil, changes the domain to the Abyss instead of a layer of Hell, and promotes the new being to major godhood thus opening up a lot of "what if" variations to be explored. Like maybe they could have a good Asmodeus equivalent or a neutral Demogorgon. Whatevs.
Krynn has it's main value as WEIRDO ALTERNATE D&D to be compared to earlier stuff by the DM and players. Some of the metagaming assumptions born of familiarity will be thrown out or twisted. That is the fun of it. It is not really great unto itself. It is Mirror Universe/ Sliders D&D where WW2 was started by The Dominican Republic or something odd like that. Without Earth Prime a Sliders universe doesn't mean much. Without the normal TOS Star Trek universe, to be a reaction to, the Mirror Universe is almost useless. It's just a ship full of rotten dickheads doing awful things.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2021, 11:13:21 AM
Ah, well said. Yeah, that makes more sense.
But frankly, I wouldn't trust WotC to not fuck it up.
Also to be fair, WOTC was getting desperate for a D&D movie and cartoon series and Dragonlance is about the only D&D setting that is not covered under Solomons blanket control over all things D&D media.
Unfortunately, it being FailOTC, they decided to reboot the setting with a new writer and not tell Weiss and co. The writer found out, talked to them, found out they were not on board, and that angle was dropped and thus another edition chained to Forgotten Realms.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 29, 2021, 10:37:55 AM
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2021, 10:28:43 AM
...
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
"What if Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman told WotC to go fuck themselves?"
(Not disagreeing with you, but gawd, WotC must be pretty dumb if that was Plan A.)
WOTC did try and do a Dragonlance reboot. They even hired Jim Butcher now of Dresden files fame to write it up. He was all exited about it and then he asked if Hickman and Weis were down with the re-boot plan... WOTC dissembled... Butcher then said:
"WTF!? They're not on board? Hell no, I'm out bitches!! Holla!...".I don't think that went down too well at WOTC. They were in the odd situation of being the IP owners, yet the setting creators were viewed by fandom as DL being 'their baby'.
Put on your tinfoil hats kids, Uncle Jaeger is goin' off the deep end now...
So fast forward to when Hickman and Weis Paid WOTC for a DragonLance license to write and publish three new books. Things went fine for a while, then their editor was changed to an almost parody of a SJW male, and they found that their approval process was stopped. So no new books, and H&W are SOL:
"Too bad so sad says WOTC..."Hickman and Weis then say:
"We are not just two rando's from the internet, we actually saved some cash from all those bestselling DragonLance books we wrote back in the day. We got lawyers and shit too motherfuckers!".
H&W then sue WOTC for breach of contract:
"Give us ten million dollars bitches for fucking with the license we paid you for!"
In an epically fast turnaround for a multi-million dollar corporation; WOTC backed down.
(IMHO some kind of out of court agreement was reached.) H&W withdrew their lawsuit, and like fucking magic all their approval issues went away...
IMHO, Hickman and Weiss had a legit case, and someone from Hasbro legal came down from on high and said:
"WTF are you guys doing!?".*Insert corporate overlord bitch-slaps here*So fast forward to today; The SJW editor that gave H&W grief is fired, and the first of the new DragonLance novels is set to drop soon.
As to the new trilogy: I would find it absolutely incredulous that H&W would retcon and invalidate their past writings for the three new books primarily marketed to current DL fandom.
So how does this relate to Crawfords musings:
"The only D&D Lore that is 'cannon', is what we make for 5e motherfuckers. Suck it grognards!" 1: WOTC has been on a bit of a kick lately taking popular older settings like Ravenloft, and absolutely fucking them up.
2: It is also rather interesting that Crawford
specifically cites DragonLance as an example of something that was ok in its day, but is not considered in any way sacrosanct now...
3: How much you wanna bet the SJW's like Crawford hate the fact that Hickman and Weis still got to do their books, and hate the fact that last time they tried to do a DL setting reboot without them; Butcher bounced...
Any takers?
4: Remember: SJW's always lie. SJW's always project. And SJW's
always double-down.
IMHO the timing of this might have to do with the fact that although new DragonLance books will becoming out by Hickman and Weiss. There is zero indication or announcements of any kind by WOTC that the new DL trilogy even exists...
5: There is this:
https://screenrant.com/dungeons-dragons-setting-classic-ravenloft-wizards-coast/
One of the two classic setting set to make a comeback could very easily be a DragonLance setting book that retcons huge swaths of H&W established Lore, bringing it
"in line with modern sensibilities" pouring on as much gay, bisexual, gender, and race swapping that they can, and still call it "DragonLance".
Why?
Because: "Fuck You Hickman and Weis!"
That's why.
Critical Drinker explains: Why Canon Matters
When canon doesn't matter you get a rock named Geode who navigates "the vessel" to fight "Darth Badguy" on the planet "World" so he can't use " The Weapon". You get bald empathic homunculus twins named Ceret and Terec. You get an immortal Doctor who isn't really a time lord. Basically without canon any fool can just open up the shit faucets.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 29, 2021, 11:12:17 PM
As to the new trilogy: I would find it absolutely incredulous that H&W would retcon and invalidate their past writings for the three new books primarily marketed to current DL fandom.
How familiar are you with their work? ;) Weis & Hickman have been fine with retconning their own work on Dragonlance, and downright cheerful about retconning the work of other hands. Sometimes they regret it and wind up retconning their retcons. Track the evolution of the High God and Chaos through their own writings if you don't believe me. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 30, 2021, 03:07:27 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on July 29, 2021, 11:12:17 PM
As to the new trilogy: I would find it absolutely incredulous that H&W would retcon and invalidate their past writings for the three new books primarily marketed to current DL fandom.
How familiar are you with their work? ;) Weis & Hickman have been fine with retconning their own work on Dragonlance, and downright cheerful about retconning the work of other hands. Sometimes they regret it and wind up retconning their retcons. Track the evolution of the High God and Chaos through their own writings if you don't believe me. :)
Very this. At some point they apparently went back and re-writ some of the books, exvept now several of the main characters get killed off. And thats not even getting to the various cataclysm 2.0 3.0 etc the gods are back-the gods are gone-the gods are back-the gods are gone ad nausium.
Quote from: Omega on July 30, 2021, 04:08:16 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 30, 2021, 03:07:27 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on July 29, 2021, 11:12:17 PM
As to the new trilogy: I would find it absolutely incredulous that H&W would retcon and invalidate their past writings for the three new books primarily marketed to current DL fandom.
How familiar are you with their work? ;) Weis & Hickman have been fine with retconning their own work on Dragonlance, and downright cheerful about retconning the work of other hands. Sometimes they regret it and wind up retconning their retcons. Track the evolution of the High God and Chaos through their own writings if you don't believe me. :)
Very this. At some point they apparently went back and re-writ some of the books, exvept now several of the main characters get killed off. And thats not even getting to the various cataclysm 2.0 3.0 etc the gods are back-the gods are gone-the gods are back-the gods are gone ad nausium.
Good points, so I looked into it...
IMHO most of the enthusiasm and fond memories I see online for DL overwhelmingly revolves around the Original DragonLance trilogy.
And from what I have read online; the continuity is such a epic fucking mess that most have just stopped paying any attention to the continuity whatsoever. (The 'continuity' rundowns I have read bear that out... LOL WTF! What a disaster!)
But, it is worth noting that it is a continuity disaster. Not a woke disaster.
H&W book license that they have is not the work for hire situation they were under in the past. (Which directly led to a lot of the previous retconning.) They went after, and paid for a license to use for books that they wanted to put out.
IMHO the big tell here is that as far as WOTC D&D PR is concerned; the new H&W DL trilogy Does. Not. Exist.
I highly doubt H&W would willingly do the kind of woke to the gills changes to DragonLance that Crawford and Co. would gleefully impose on the setting if given half a chance.
As this is all SWAG tea-leaf reading, I could be wrong.
But the books will drop shortly, and then we'll see what two classic setting WOTC will put out, and we can compare.
Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2021, 10:28:43 AM
Quote from: Flipped Bird on July 29, 2021, 06:19:37 AM
I think you've put the cart before the horse. It's been the case for a while now that a lot of lazy writers see canon as a burden and rely heavily on prequels, remakes, and soft reboots that allow them to cherry pick the most memorable (and marketable) parts of an IP and cut away the rest. The fact that they will be creating an opportunity to force more of their politics into their settings is just icing on the cake for them.
Thats been a thing since at least the 70s.
Keep in mind WOTC wanted to hard reboot Dragonlance as its 5e setting. "What if the group never met at the tavern?"
It's been a thing since ancient mythology and fairy tales. "Canon" is actually a modern invention. Originally storytellers would make stuff up willy nilly without regard for consistency. That's why we have multiple versions of old stories. I think that diversity of stories is a good thing.
While I can understand the problem with SJW craziness, rebooting is not an inherently bad thing. I think Transformers has benefited immensely from being rebooted a dozen times. Each reboot has been influenced by what came before. Furthermore, the Transformers multiverse has provided an excellent case study in cataloging a modern mythopoeia with all the permutations of a living story cycle. It's not always resulted in the best choices by writers (that time IDW made Arcee a transgender Frankenstein's monster comes to mind), but having options and diversity of thought is great.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 06:28:50 PMIt's been a thing since ancient mythology and fairy tales. "Canon" is actually a modern invention.
I guess if modern is a few thousand years old then yeah I suppose it is in comparison to literally oral tradition stories.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 30, 2021, 06:48:10 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 06:28:50 PMIt's been a thing since ancient mythology and fairy tales. "Canon" is actually a modern invention.
I guess if modern is a few thousand years old then yeah I suppose it is in comparison to literally oral tradition stories.
I know, right.
Thats why we have so many stories about how Jesus was an African Transwoman because no Canon.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 30, 2021, 06:56:01 PM
I know, right.
Thats why we have so many stories about how Jesus was an African Transwoman because no Canon.
I think the first time canon was applied to a set of fictional texts as opposed to religious or literary ones (the latter in the sense of the 'canon of the Western tradition', etc.) was Msgr. Ronald Knox laying the foundation of Sherlockian fandom. I believe he was doing that in part as a satire of the 'higher criticism' of Scripture.
Like I will admit Im not one of those people that obsesses over 'Why the third button from the right launched lasers from season 1-2 but in episode 6 it sounded the alarm', but continuity is important.
Those that discard continuity are the kind of people with the attention span of a goldfish. And if that is the case then the presence or absense of continuity will not bother those folks.
Discarding continuity and not trying to keep what happens strait is just people being lazy and letting their ego have control over ongoing narrative.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 30, 2021, 07:50:56 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on July 30, 2021, 06:56:01 PM
I know, right.
Thats why we have so many stories about how Jesus was an African Transwoman because no Canon.
I think the first time canon was applied to a set of fictional texts as opposed to religious or literary ones (the latter in the sense of the 'canon of the Western tradition', etc.) was Msgr. Ronald Knox laying the foundation of Sherlockian fandom. I believe he was doing that in part as a satire of the 'higher criticism' of Scripture.
You mean Epic of Gilgamesh. Probably had some rando wanting to reboot the franchise right back in 2000 BC
You try maintaining continuity across franchises that are many decades old and have countless entries and writers working on them. It's impossible. Doctor Who, Warcraft, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer, Cthulhu mythos, etc couldn't do it even before the SJW infestation.
And what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
You're letting your hatred of the SJWs cloud your judgement. Reboot is a tool like anything else. It can be used for good or ill.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:13:20 PMAnd what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
Make a new franchise and story.
Im not clouded by anything. I hated endless reboots and shitty lazy sequels and IP worship before I ever heard the term SJW.
If you can't be bothered with basic fucking details of an existing story, just make ORIGINAL CONTENT.
Its shackling to remember the original, but its not lazy to use existing material for easy writing?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:13:20 PM
You try maintaining continuity across franchises that are many decades old and have countless entries and writers working on them. It's impossible. Doctor Who, Warcraft, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer, Cthulhu mythos, etc couldn't do it even before the SJW infestation.
And what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
You're letting your hatred of the SJWs cloud your judgement. Reboot is a tool like anything else. It can be used for good or ill.
Is it impossible? Really?
In these days with hyperlinked wikipedia-type sites and searchable texts, it is getting less and less impossible.
Unless you are just so lazy and or unimaginative that you cant work within the existing framework.
And just for the sake of your argument. Which author are you referring to when you say they are wanting to "reboot" their setting? Obviously you must have 2 or 3 that you can name off the top of your head.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 30, 2021, 09:39:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:13:20 PMAnd what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
Make a new franchise and story.
Fucking This.
Reportedly, when George Lucas coudn't get the rights to Flash Gordon, he made a little fantasy sci fi movie called Star Wars. You may have heard about it.
It was a risk. A huge gamble. A challenge to create something new, inspired by other sources, sure, but not a sequel or a reboot or a reimagining with Flash Gordon slapped on the box.
I don't even mind a reimagining or a reboot or a sequel. Some of them turn out rather well. But we've got the modern, corporate machine cranking them out according to a formula gleaned from algorythms and focus groups. A crutch for less creative people to make cookie cutter films that are quickly consumed and forgotten.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 31, 2021, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 30, 2021, 09:39:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:13:20 PMAnd what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
Make a new franchise and story.
Fucking This.
Reportedly, when George Lucas coudn't get the rights to Flash Gordon, he made a little fantasy sci fi movie called Star Wars. You may have heard about it.
It was a risk. A huge gamble. A challenge to create something new, inspired by other sources, sure, but not a sequel or a reboot or a reimagining with Flash Gordon slapped on the box.
I don't even mind a reimagining or a reboot or a sequel. Some of them turn out rather well. But we've got the modern, corporate machine cranking them out according to a formula gleaned from algorythms and focus groups. A crutch for less creative people to make cookie cutter films that are quickly consumed and forgotten.
Should Superman still be an aggressive guy beating up reporters because of wrongthink? Because the truth, justice, and the American Way boyscout is a retcon.
As far as I can tell, people are fine with retcons as long as they're done well. It's only when they're not done well that people start complaining about purity and canon.
Krynn is a weird example, because it sounds like the canon has become a huge mess. On top of that, it's a setting that's specifically a reaction to other settings. It doesn't seem as moored in canon in the first place.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 30, 2021, 09:39:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:13:20 PMAnd what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
Make a new franchise and story.
Im not clouded by anything. I hated endless reboots and shitty lazy sequels and IP worship before I ever heard the term SJW.
If you can't be bothered with basic fucking details of an existing story, just make ORIGINAL CONTENT.
Its shackling to remember the original, but its not lazy to use existing material for easy writing?
Does an alternate universe of the prior work count as new or does that set off your nerd autism too?
Quote from: Shasarak on July 30, 2021, 10:26:17 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:13:20 PM
You try maintaining continuity across franchises that are many decades old and have countless entries and writers working on them. It's impossible. Doctor Who, Warcraft, Star Trek, Star Wars, Warhammer, Cthulhu mythos, etc couldn't do it even before the SJW infestation.
And what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
You're letting your hatred of the SJWs cloud your judgement. Reboot is a tool like anything else. It can be used for good or ill.
Is it impossible? Really?
In these days with hyperlinked wikipedia-type sites and searchable texts, it is getting less and less impossible.
Unless you are just so lazy and or unimaginative that you cant work within the existing framework.
And just for the sake of your argument. Which author are you referring to when you say they are wanting to "reboot" their setting? Obviously you must have 2 or 3 that you can name off the top of your head.
Tolkien. He once complained about the finality of publishing preventing him from changing a story afterward.
C.J. Cherryh released revised versions of her Rusalka trilogy that were heavily altered compared to their previous versions.
Chris Metzen, once creative director at Blizzard Entertainment, knowingly retconned his own work numerous times.
The 2002 He-Man reboot and 2011 Thundercats reboot. Those were great because they were made by people who actually liked the source material.
The premise of the alternate history genre is that historical events go in a different direction compared to our timeline, but prior to that divergence point it's the same universe as ours.
Mythology and fairy tales normally have multiple versions of the same stories. Fairy tales recycle the same plots so often that the ATU index exists specifically to organize and track it.
Any fiction with multiverses.
Quote from: Pat on July 31, 2021, 06:27:18 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 31, 2021, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 30, 2021, 09:39:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:13:20 PMAnd what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
Make a new franchise and story.
Fucking This.
Reportedly, when George Lucas coudn't get the rights to Flash Gordon, he made a little fantasy sci fi movie called Star Wars. You may have heard about it.
It was a risk. A huge gamble. A challenge to create something new, inspired by other sources, sure, but not a sequel or a reboot or a reimagining with Flash Gordon slapped on the box.
I don't even mind a reimagining or a reboot or a sequel. Some of them turn out rather well. But we've got the modern, corporate machine cranking them out according to a formula gleaned from algorythms and focus groups. A crutch for less creative people to make cookie cutter films that are quickly consumed and forgotten.
Should Superman still be an aggressive guy beating up reporters because of wrongthink? Because the truth, justice, and the American Way boyscout is a retcon.
As far as I can tell, people are fine with retcons as long as they're done well. It's only when they're not done well that people start complaining about purity and canon.
Krynn is a weird example, because it sounds like the canon has become a huge mess. On top of that, it's a setting that's specifically a reaction to other settings. It doesn't seem as moored in canon in the first place.
It's also a case of "canon, like history, begins the moment you start following it."
For example, I didn't start reading Superman comics in earnest until the early 90's so, from my perspective, Lois Lane had always known Clark Kent was Superman and was his fiancée/wife. Sure, I reasoned there was a point early on when she didn't know and that's the point the movies were referencing... but the Lois & Clark tv show did the reveal at the end of season two so that just reinforced my assumption of the "Love Triangle for Two" being mostly "early installment weirdness" that people doing new versions jusr played with for a bit before moving on.
Of course I later learned about all the previous things; how the love triangle for two had been THE story for decades...
But I also that Jimmy Olsen and Kryptonite were only added because of the radio drama (wherein Superman arrived on Earth full grown) and that Clark and Lois originally worked at the Daily Star of Cleveland under editor George Taylor and, far from being the world's greatest reporter, Lois Lane was a 19 year old girl stuck writing a love advice column for the paper and kept getting into trouble because she took risks trying prove she could get and write real stories and that Clark (who was in his very early 20's) was his real identity, he had only normal human abilities turned up to 11+ by Earth's low gravity and he was a vigilante hunted by the police...
... and that Superman's original writers had originally planned for Lois to learn Clark's secret and become his full partner as an ongoing part of the story all the way back in 1941 (so barely three years/36 issues after Action Comics #1) only to have it nixed by executive meddling.
So tell me again, what's the canon for Superman?
I tend to doubt it's the vigilante crusader whose powers were just human ability turned up several notches, who stands up for the little guy against corrupt government and corporate figures, is teamed up with Lois Lane who knows his secret (and no red-headed kid sidekick to be found), works for George Taylor at the Daily Star in Depression-era Cleveland and whose greatest enemy is The Ultra-Humanite (who was actually the main character of S&S's original Super-man story).
Rather, I'm going to guess that for each person its whatever version you first encountered that you really paid attention to.
I'll admit though... the original recipe with no executive meddling actually sounds Kickass and if adapted as a period piece would probably be an amazing film.
And by the same token; someone give me the definitive canon for King Arthur and Robin Hood. Remember, by the standards some hold it must include every story organized in such a way that there are no contradictions.
And that's the situation for all the various fantasy gaming worlds that have now been around for 30-40 years too. I'd wager just a tiny fraction of Realms fans have even looked at the original Grey Box and the vast majority didn't even start into it until the Time of Troubles novels or the first Drzzt novel and most gamers under the age of 35 are only familiar with its 3e and later incarnations.
"Canon" has its uses (mostly for continuity within a single author's story) but it's not the end all and be all. It makes even less sense for RPGs where each DM is making the world their own and each FR campaign is probably mutually exclusive of every other FR campaign in terms of continuity.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:16:12 AM
Does an alternate universe of the prior work count as new or does that set off your nerd autism too?
If you see any disagreement to your ideas as just misplaced nitpicking (even though I stated im not a hyper stickler for canon), and start off the conversation that I am a fool for disagreeing with you, then I don't think it really makes sense for me to continue the conversation with me since you see me in such a low light.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 31, 2021, 08:56:39 AM
So tell me again, what's the canon for Superman?
Nothing, because nothing is sacred in Superhero comics. I wouldn't use the medium thats imploding because of constant neverending meddling and battles between different writers and editors (while the stories get more rehashed and tired with every decade) as an example of the benefits of loose cannon.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 31, 2021, 08:56:39 AM
"Canon" has its uses (mostly for continuity within a single author's story) but it's not the end all and be all. It makes even less sense for RPGs where each DM is making the world their own and each FR campaign is probably mutually exclusive of every other FR campaign in terms of continuity.
Got it, and I am mostly in alignment with you. I do not care about the different Superman versions. I still gravitate to the one produced from Marlon Brando's balls, but I am okay with the others existing.
What I reject is WOTC going Disney's Star Wars on the past, and simply erasing it. They lack the talent to do a remaster and go toe to toe with prior settings/versions. It won't stand up. And they know it. Instead, they are going to erase what was there and tell the fans to accept the new or move along.
The early Superman history you shared sounds interesting. It is a shame it did not work out like the original creators intended.
Quote from: Pat on July 31, 2021, 06:27:18 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 31, 2021, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 30, 2021, 09:39:28 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 09:13:20 PMAnd what if an author decides to reboot their setting because they have new ideas that can't fit into it? Should they shackle themselves because of your nerd autism?
Make a new franchise and story.
Fucking This.
Reportedly, when George Lucas coudn't get the rights to Flash Gordon, he made a little fantasy sci fi movie called Star Wars. You may have heard about it.
It was a risk. A huge gamble. A challenge to create something new, inspired by other sources, sure, but not a sequel or a reboot or a reimagining with Flash Gordon slapped on the box.
I don't even mind a reimagining or a reboot or a sequel. Some of them turn out rather well. But we've got the modern, corporate machine cranking them out according to a formula gleaned from algorythms and focus groups. A crutch for less creative people to make cookie cutter films that are quickly consumed and forgotten.
Should Superman still be an aggressive guy beating up reporters because of wrongthink? Because the truth, justice, and the American Way boyscout is a retcon.
As far as I can tell, people are fine with retcons as long as they're done well. It's only when they're not done well that people start complaining about purity and canon.
That's why I said I don't neccessarily mind retcons when they're done well. And done well is the heart of the matter. Breaking canon in order to do something stupid with a character or story makes it stick out all the more. Like tossing out three movies worth of character development to make Luke Skywalker or Han Solo into shitty characters.
QuoteKrynn is a weird example, because it sounds like the canon has become a huge mess. On top of that, it's a setting that's specifically a reaction to other settings. It doesn't seem as moored in canon in the first place.
Canon and lore aren't so important to a D&D game. All campaigns have an element of "alternate reality". This is pretty much necessary when you have thousands of campaigns set in the same world, where one GM replaces the official main characters with their party of player characters. Or has events change due to the PCs decisions altering the "history" of how the published DL campaign goes.
But Lore is important. When they killed off all the major bad guys and turned Athas into a greener world, the setting lost a lof of it's appeal. 4th ed wisely "rebooted" Dark Sun back to the time of Kalak's death, because the metaplot changed the setting so much that the original appeal was gone.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 31, 2021, 08:56:39 AM
So tell me again, what's the canon for Superman?
I tend to doubt it's the vigilante crusader whose powers were just human ability turned up several notches, who stands up for the little guy against corrupt government and corporate figures, is teamed up with Lois Lane who knows his secret (and no red-headed kid sidekick to be found), works for George Taylor at the Daily Star in Depression-era Cleveland and whose greatest enemy is The Ultra-Humanite (who was actually the main character of S&S's original Super-man story).
....
I'll admit though... the original recipe with no executive meddling actually sounds Kickass and if adapted as a period piece would probably be an amazing film.
I've used Superman 1938 or maybe up to the war, fairly frequently in super-hero games. Not with the same name, of course, because I favor original worlds. But the same personality and power set. He's a fun character, plus the power set is strong but not as overwhelming as later Superman became.
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 29, 2021, 08:32:46 PM
I think Krynn is a dumb choice for a center setting. It's a reaction to the tropes of prior settings. Without those prior settings to compare its proposed changes with it goes from seeming different to merely having some quirks. Krynn is there to provide a contrast with the more conventional settings like Greyhawk or Blackmoor or The Forgotten Realms Tolkien pastiche.
1. The gods have been gone or at least under cover and suddenly they are coming back and sweeping away the false religion that more or less banned their worship. The dragons are returning as well as a new invading race of Draconian dragon men.
2. There was a cataclysm, later explained as a punishment from the gods where a meteor or asteroid destroyed the world equivalent of Rome at the height of its power. The cataclysm altered the land scape, brought gold in such high amounts that the metal lost its potential to be used as a currency metal. The gods left mankind to their own devices and in this time the dragons disappeared as well.
3. The gods were somehow formally organized into something like a government where one coming back brought others, their counterparts back as well as if some sort of arms limitation treaty was in effect. When they come back to Krynn directly their constellation reflects that by becoming invisible.
4. The mages being sorted into good, evil, and, neutral schools with some ability to change from one to the other and that have their own governing moon one of which is only visible to its followers is it's own strange thing.
5. Some of the races are altered somewhat. Kender replace halflings being loud, capricious, athletic, and rather child like rather than homesy stable slightly dumpy types.
6. Krynn as an alternate material plane originally, and a different planetary sphere in the void later on(Spelljammer compatibility), takes a figure from the normal setting, Tiamat the Chromatic dragon, and changes the alignment from lawful evil to chaotic evil, changes the domain to the Abyss instead of a layer of Hell, and promotes the new being to major godhood thus opening up a lot of "what if" variations to be explored. Like maybe they could have a good Asmodeus equivalent or a neutral Demogorgon. Whatevs.
Krynn has it's main value as WEIRDO ALTERNATE D&D to be compared to earlier stuff by the DM and players. Some of the metagaming assumptions born of familiarity will be thrown out or twisted. That is the fun of it. It is not really great unto itself. It is Mirror Universe/ Sliders D&D where WW2 was started by The Dominican Republic or something odd like that. Without Earth Prime a Sliders universe doesn't mean much. Without the normal TOS Star Trek universe, to be a reaction to, the Mirror Universe is almost useless. It's just a ship full of rotten dickheads doing awful things.
While most of your points are broadly correct, your assessment couldn't be more wrong.
On a sidenote, every new setting tries to do something fresh and contrasting. The subversive world was Dark Sun, btw, not Dragonlance.
But here's a shocker:
What D&D lacks is a great fantasy world with mass appeal. Let that sink in.
D&D does not have a great "standard fantasy world". Krynn was their best shot, so far.
Nobody aside from hardcore fans associates any elves, dwarves, any characters like powerful mages, any lands or big events with D&D.
Warhammer kept everything super simple, copied our world, crank all tropes about the standard races to ten. After Lord of the Rings they are probably number two along with Warcraft in terms of world branding.
Forgotten Realms was utterly forgetable aside from the a tiny corner starring a certain Dark Elf, who now gets his LGBT covid jab and will be a lackluster cartoon of himself.
Rebooting Krynn might be their best chance at establishing something with mass appeal.
Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on July 31, 2021, 07:20:24 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 29, 2021, 08:32:46 PM
I think Krynn is a dumb choice for a center setting. It's a reaction to the tropes of prior settings. Without those prior settings to compare its proposed changes with it goes from seeming different to merely having some quirks. Krynn is there to provide a contrast with the more conventional settings like Greyhawk or Blackmoor or The Forgotten Realms Tolkien pastiche.
1. The gods have been gone or at least under cover and suddenly they are coming back and sweeping away the false religion that more or less banned their worship. The dragons are returning as well as a new invading race of Draconian dragon men.
2. There was a cataclysm, later explained as a punishment from the gods where a meteor or asteroid destroyed the world equivalent of Rome at the height of its power. The cataclysm altered the land scape, brought gold in such high amounts that the metal lost its potential to be used as a currency metal. The gods left mankind to their own devices and in this time the dragons disappeared as well.
3. The gods were somehow formally organized into something like a government where one coming back brought others, their counterparts back as well as if some sort of arms limitation treaty was in effect. When they come back to Krynn directly their constellation reflects that by becoming invisible.
4. The mages being sorted into good, evil, and, neutral schools with some ability to change from one to the other and that have their own governing moon one of which is only visible to its followers is it's own strange thing.
5. Some of the races are altered somewhat. Kender replace halflings being loud, capricious, athletic, and rather child like rather than homesy stable slightly dumpy types.
6. Krynn as an alternate material plane originally, and a different planetary sphere in the void later on(Spelljammer compatibility), takes a figure from the normal setting, Tiamat the Chromatic dragon, and changes the alignment from lawful evil to chaotic evil, changes the domain to the Abyss instead of a layer of Hell, and promotes the new being to major godhood thus opening up a lot of "what if" variations to be explored. Like maybe they could have a good Asmodeus equivalent or a neutral Demogorgon. Whatevs.
Krynn has it's main value as WEIRDO ALTERNATE D&D to be compared to earlier stuff by the DM and players. Some of the metagaming assumptions born of familiarity will be thrown out or twisted. That is the fun of it. It is not really great unto itself. It is Mirror Universe/ Sliders D&D where WW2 was started by The Dominican Republic or something odd like that. Without Earth Prime a Sliders universe doesn't mean much. Without the normal TOS Star Trek universe, to be a reaction to, the Mirror Universe is almost useless. It's just a ship full of rotten dickheads doing awful things.
While most of your points are broadly correct, your assessment couldn't be more wrong.
On a sidenote, every new setting tries to do something fresh and contrasting. The subversive world was Dark Sun, btw, not Dragonlance.
But here's a shocker:
What D&D lacks is a great fantasy world with mass appeal. Let that sink in.
D&D does not have a great "standard fantasy world". Krynn was their best shot, so far.
Nobody aside from hardcore fans associates any elves, dwarves, any characters like powerful mages, any lands or big events with D&D.
Warhammer kept everything super simple, copied our world, crank all tropes about the standard races to ten. After Lord of the Rings they are probably number two along with Warcraft in terms of world branding.
Forgotten Realms was utterly forgetable aside from the a tiny corner starring a certain Dark Elf, who now gets his LGBT covid jab and will be a lackluster cartoon of himself.
Rebooting Krynn might be their best chance at establishing something with mass appeal.
Frankly, when it comes to Dragonlance, I don't think it needs a reboot so much as a straight reset... i.e. don't change the lore, just redo the DL1-15 modules for 5e complete with the "how to use your own PCs instead of the pre-gens" that every one of those modules included and an overview of Ansalon c. The War of the Lance.
Because frankly, that's precisely how it got played back in the day; the players made their own PCs and ran with it. It's been decades, but as I recall the DM back then even contrived something to swing us back around from the Tanis/Sturm/Laurana group that swung west then north and joined up with the main armies opposed to the Dragon Lords and got us down to Sylvanoth to do the east around to the Bloodsea/Maelstrom and down for the final battle that Caramon, Raistlin and company did in the modules.
In terms of setup it's very 1e WEG Star Wars... where the default campaign was that you're playing the heroic Rebellion on the run from and trying to overthrow the evil Empire.
And I think 5e's bounded accuracy actually works really well in that sort of setup too since sufficient numbers of mooks can still be a threat to PCs you don't need to continually introduce newer tougher monster troops to keep the PCs from just liberating cities left and right the way high level 3e-4E PCs could because they could wipe out whole legions of 1-2HD critters without serious risk to themselves.
You're basically Robin Hood types but with higher magic and fantastic monsters to fight.
Quote from: FingerRod on July 31, 2021, 03:05:02 PM
...
What I reject is WOTC going Disney's Star Wars on the past, and simply erasing it... ...they are going to erase what was there and tell the fans to accept the new or move along.
This!!!!
Box crayons: "But ,but, but look at all the reboots in x,y, and z!.." Misses the point.
This is the point:
Quote from: FingerRod on July 31, 2021, 03:05:02 PM
... They lack the talent to do a remaster and go toe to toe with prior settings/versions. It won't stand up. And they know it...
Everything WOTC has touched recently has proven that they are not up to the creative standards of the people who originally developed the classic properties they are "re-imagining" and bringing "inline with modern sensibilities."
The whole point of rebooting a creative IP is because somewhere along the line it had lost its way and gotten played out. The re-boots that work do so because they respect the original source material and stay true to the original creative intent and spirit behind it. Something the SJW's are incapable of doing.
i.e. Ravenloft. They only know that it was popular. So they did a reboot. They did not, and are incapable of understanding
why it was popular; which is why the WOTC NuRavenloft
Fucking Sucks...
Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on July 31, 2021, 07:20:24 PM
...
But here's a shocker:
What D&D lacks is a great fantasy world with mass appeal. Let that sink in.
D&D does not have a great "standard fantasy world". Krynn was their best shot, so far.
Nobody aside from hardcore fans associates any elves, dwarves, any characters like powerful mages, any lands or big events with D&D.
Warhammer kept everything super simple, copied our world, crank all tropes about the standard races to ten. After Lord of the Rings they are probably number two along with Warcraft in terms of world branding.
Forgotten Realms was utterly forgetable aside from the a tiny corner starring a certain Dark Elf, who now gets his LGBT covid jab and will be a lackluster cartoon of himself.
Rebooting Krynn might be their best chance at establishing something with mass appeal.
This guy gets it.
FR was designed by a hippie with little understanding of how or why myth, and culture were actually important. Lets be honest; most of the "worldbuilding" that people actually like like about the FR was done by the authors of the FR books who went in and wrote their own stories on top of Greenwoods bland pastiche of other pastiches.
The DragonLance Trilogy is no Lord of the Rings. That's for Damn sure. But unlike Greenwood's Forgotten Realms, when it came to fantasy worldbuilding, Krynn was created by people who at least had a clue.
The 'Realms has been so badly curated as a setting over the years that it is nigh impossible to unwind without a complete and total nuke it from orbit and remake from the ground up. More spell plagues just ain't gonna cut it anymore. And they know it.
Krynn gives them a shot at a more 'clean-sheet' reboot that won't ruffle any of the new fans feathers, as the IP has been relatively dormant for so long.
Either way they are demonstrating a singular lack of faith in their own "creative abilities" and confidence to create a new and evocative setting that will draw people in. Probably because deep down they know that they are not as good as the old TSR crew that came before them...
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 31, 2021, 07:48:32 PM
...
Frankly, when it comes to Dragonlance, I don't think it needs a reboot so much as a straight reset... i.e. don't change the lore, just redo the DL1-15 modules for 5e complete with the "how to use your own PCs instead of the pre-gens" that every one of those modules included and an overview of Ansalon c. The War of the Lance.
...
As NuRavenloft has shown, WOTC is utterly incapable of doing anything
straight...
Quote from: Jaeger on July 31, 2021, 09:07:32 PM
Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on July 31, 2021, 07:20:24 PM
...
But here's a shocker:
What D&D lacks is a great fantasy world with mass appeal. Let that sink in.
D&D does not have a great "standard fantasy world". Krynn was their best shot, so far.
Nobody aside from hardcore fans associates any elves, dwarves, any characters like powerful mages, any lands or big events with D&D.
Warhammer kept everything super simple, copied our world, crank all tropes about the standard races to ten. After Lord of the Rings they are probably number two along with Warcraft in terms of world branding.
Forgotten Realms was utterly forgetable aside from the a tiny corner starring a certain Dark Elf, who now gets his LGBT covid jab and will be a lackluster cartoon of himself.
Rebooting Krynn might be their best chance at establishing something with mass appeal.
This guy gets it.
FR was designed by a hippie with little understanding of how or why myth, and culture were actually important. Lets be honest; most of the "worldbuilding" that people actually like like about the FR was done by the authors of the FR books who went in and wrote their own stories on top of Greenwoods bland pastiche of other pastiches.
The DragonLance Trilogy is no Lord of the Rings. That's for Damn sure. But unlike Greenwood's Forgotten Realms, when it came to fantasy worldbuilding, Krynn was created by people who at least had a clue.
The 'Realms has been so badly curated as a setting over the years that it is nigh impossible to unwind without a complete and total nuke it from orbit and remake from the ground up. More spell plagues just ain't gonna cut it anymore. And they know it.
Krynn gives them a shot at a more 'clean-sheet' reboot that won't ruffle any of the new fans feathers, as the IP has been relatively dormant for so long.
You guys are rating Warhammer, Warcraft and Krynn above Forgotten Realms for branding and mass appeal?
And Hickman and Weiss above Greenwood for fantasy worldbuilding?
OK, I'd at least like to look at your evidence for that.
Quote from: Jaeger on July 31, 2021, 09:07:32 PM
The whole point of rebooting a creative IP is because somewhere along the line it had lost its way and gotten played out. The re-boots that work do so because they respect the original source material and stay true to the original creative intent and spirit behind it.
100% and when it is done for these reasons, it can work.
Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on July 31, 2021, 07:20:24 PM
While most of your points are broadly correct, your assessment couldn't be more wrong.
On a sidenote, every new setting tries to do something fresh and contrasting. The subversive world was Dark Sun, btw, not Dragonlance.
Dark Suns came out about seven years after DragonLance so it really has no useful place in a discussion about how Krynn was envisioned as a reference to earlier D&D backgrounds encouraging the "what's different" game. Also there isn't much Krynn does that means anything without a conventional realm to rest on as a contrast. Krynn is suitable to be a fruit on a branch but isn't seminal, and can't play the role of a root or standard. It needs a root to be meaningful.
What I'm going to explain is by no means controversial. This should be somewhat common knowledge.
In order to properly build a franchise, the best practise is to create a big, world saving plot with lots of likable/well dislikable characters that drag you around colourful corners as they experience their coming of age/heroe's journey. You don't just "build" a realistic globe and go from there even though that seems like the logical method.
Greyhawk lacks everything in every department, badly. It's an utter fail from a franchise perspective.
Nobody knows who all these characters are, half of which derived from Gygax private groups, complete with silly, George Lucas-tier names.
Dragonlance novels were bestsellers. It was D&D's literary breakout. The writer duo managed to come up with truly iconic characters.
Salvatore managed that, too, but here's the twist: They all like the dark elf, the rest is unimportant. Neither are most plots epic, nor are the places magical, special or worth remembering. Forgotten Realms choked under its own obese worldbuilding.
Dragonlance on the other hand has at its core a pretty clever mythological trope variation which the idiots at TSR/WotC often didn't even bother to see through. This alone is practically enough.
The world has the right size as the heroes travel through most corners (of Ansalon).
Kenders almost broke into mainstream. The FR Dark Elves were a fresh take on matriarchy, a USP which the faggots now wanna squash!
Dark Sun tried hard but the novels were just ok.
Krynn has absolutely enough potential to make D&D hyoooge.
If the upper management/marketing had any sense, they would have specifically advised Weiss & Hickman to make the reboot TV compatible and bank on a netflix deal or something like that. The old trilogy would need some work in that regard. The christian angle has to go along with redundant shit like Fizban and the deus ex angle. Sex has to be cranked up etc. But it's very doable.
Then it was a "see what's different" and now it's nostalgia at best. Rose tinted nostalgia. With a pile of sequels that fit less and less with the original trilogy. Oh and some side stories about Huma and Soth and stuff.
Krynn is absolutely not "very different". I don't get how you would insist on it. It's fairly standard, which in terms of marketability is a good thing.
Piles of sequels are made possible through milking a decent franchise. Lord Soth was iconic btw. As was Raistlin (and in extension, Caramon). And Tasslehoff.
Even Tanis and Sturm had far more potential which the more experienced W&H duo will probably make good use of.
I've outgrown the original trilogy so that a reread is out of the question. So how would I even be nostalgic? My post outlines a plethora of arguments which you can try to debunk. Just repeating what you already said won't do the trick.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 30, 2021, 06:48:10 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 30, 2021, 06:28:50 PMIt's been a thing since ancient mythology and fairy tales. "Canon" is actually a modern invention.
I guess if modern is a few thousand years old then yeah I suppose it is in comparison to literally oral tradition stories.
You fail Mythology... FOREVER.
Quick education then since you need it badly.
As far back as Ancient Roman times people have been messing with established data and putting new twists on them. And sometimes those changes even supplant the originals. Theres myriad examples just in Greek religion and then more and more as branch out. And some of it is deliberately malicious alterations.
Screwing with established tales for some agenda is nothing new.
I think you fail and quite spectacularly so.
Myths are powerful, useful and ultimately good (in a biologically, adaptive sense) because one of their core qualities is the difficulty of screwing them up. They are narratives with a read/write protection retold orally for millenia.
And Rome fell -hard!- as a consequence, in case you didn't notice.
Myths are bound to be attacked by degenerous forces. Now these also play their part and produce some good effects if kept in line. But for the myth to work, it cannot be fundamentally changed. Myths are not stories.
Quote from: Omega on August 01, 2021, 06:33:28 AMYou fail Mythology... FOREVER.
And failed at reading comprehension. Why do people who argue against cannon have to resort to personal attacks?
The discussion was about cannon, story consistency and consistent internal rules.
I argued that cannon (in the sense of established rules for a longterm work) had existed for more then just 'modern times', and even before the printing press (which itself is about 500 years old).
And all of this is side to the fact we are discussing literary works AFTER the invention of the printing press and the profiltration of mass education! Why the hell are we bringing stories from the era of oral fucking traditions into the equation as if it means anything?
When the Dragonlance books and modules came out "this is different" was the whole theme. That was the whole deal. STEEL PIECES. There are no gods they are a myth from before the cataclysm...oh wait maybe there are gods! Maybe dragons are real! Oh the first cleric in a long time has appeared among barbarians from the plains! Sure it borrows from Tolkien but the whole freaking DRAW of Dragon Lance when it came out was that Krynn is not like the realms. All the stuff you think you KNOW from reading the monster manual is WRONG. I get that 2nd Ed went even further out from the baseline but when it came out its differences where the whole point. Yes I know people rolled their own settings then and before. Nonetheless Krynn was invented as a flavor B. It is vanilla coke. It will never replace coke. It is not meant to. It has its fans. it made a splash in its day but it is not and never will be the central product while remaining what it is because it refers to the central product as a modification of it.
Remember what WotC did to Waterdeep. Hell, remember what TSR did to Krynn for that matter.
No, different was not the theme at all.
Every new setting has to introduce some deviations. Steel pieces were just that. You could reprint all DL books and replace them with gold coins. It wouldn't matter one bit.
Now what was the real core of Dragonlance? How about Dragons and a giant, invading army on all parts of the continent? Experiencing the heroe's journey/Bildungsroman while fighting back and even rediscovering the proper spirituality.
The initial novels and modules were from '84 - at the time the Realms are still just a series of hot flashes Ed Greenwood sometimes experiences when sleeping with his red panties on.
This introduction to Krynn in medias res was the most bombastic way to kickstart an RPG franchise in the history of paper & pen. Some people realised this and while I hate reboots (a civilised society would surely put those to death threatening to reboot anything) I have to admit it makes absolutely sense, business wise
Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on August 01, 2021, 11:15:48 AM
No, different was not the theme at all.
Every new setting has to introduce some deviations. Steel pieces were just that. You could reprint all DL books and replace them with gold coins. It wouldn't matter one bit.
Now what was the real core of Dragonlance? How about Dragons and a giant, invading army on all parts of the continent? Experiencing the heroe's journey/Bildungsroman while fighting back and even rediscovering the proper spirituality.
The initial novels and modules were from '84 - at the time the Realms are still just a series of hot flashes Ed Greenwood sometimes experiences when sleeping with his red panties on.
This introduction to Krynn in medias res was the most bombastic way to kickstart an RPG franchise in the history of paper & pen. Some people realised this and while I hate reboots (a civilised society would surely put those to death threatening to reboot anything) I have to admit it makes absolutely sense, business wise
Yep. Krynn was only a "reaction" for people who didn't have the creativity to imagine a world different than whatever baseline they read in their RPG books.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 01, 2021, 09:17:22 AM
And failed at reading comprehension. Why do people who argue against cannon have to resort to personal attacks?
That's right! Cannons are wasted in personal attacks! They should be used to knock down the wall of a castle, or as part of a broadside against a ship of the line!
(Canon, not cannon. Several pages of that typo is probably enough. :) )
Quote from: Pat on August 01, 2021, 03:24:01 PM(Canon, not cannon. Several pages of that typo is probably enough. :) )
Eh, words are always evolving and changing. Proper spelling is a modern invention anyway. Im not gonna shackle my methods of self expression to the desires grammur autists. ;D
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 01, 2021, 03:35:29 PM
Quote from: Pat on August 01, 2021, 03:24:01 PM(Canon, not cannon. Several pages of that typo is probably enough. :) )
Eh, words are always evolving and changing. Proper spelling is a modern invention anyway. Im not gonna shackle my methods of self expression to the desires grammur autists. ;D
Prepare for a volley!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0cqBj_m08k
(edit: The comments are entertaining :) )
Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on July 31, 2021, 07:20:24 PM
But here's a shocker:
What D&D lacks is a great fantasy world with mass appeal. Let that sink in.
D&D does not have a great "standard fantasy world". Krynn was their best shot, so far.
Nobody aside from hardcore fans associates any elves, dwarves, any characters like powerful mages, any lands or big events with D&D.
Warhammer kept everything super simple, copied our world, crank all tropes about the standard races to ten. After Lord of the Rings they are probably number two along with Warcraft in terms of world branding.
Forgotten Realms was utterly forgetable aside from the a tiny corner starring a certain Dark Elf, who now gets his LGBT covid jab and will be a lackluster cartoon of himself.
Rebooting Krynn might be their best chance at establishing something with mass appeal.
The problem with Krynn is that it really has one epic story to tell and its already been told.
Thats not to say there are not still stories that you can tell in Krynn but none of them is going to be as epic as the War of the Lance.
The advantage Forgotten Realms has over Krynn is that its not a one and done setting. Its huge and has many different stories to tell within its confines. Even the time of troubles did not reshape the realms as much as the cataclysm did to krynn.
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did. Rebooting Krynn again for what, the tenth time? I dont see that it will do any better then it did in its prime and that is without the novel support that it used to have. WotC will do a one book adventure and then they will continue on trying desperately to find the new hotness.
Quote from: Shasarak on August 01, 2021, 06:15:58 PM
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.
Ehhh, I'm unaware of the player-wide surveys that established that. Seems to me that TSR/WotC determined which setting would be featured in each edition, and not the players. I can say that most of the players I have known have no attachment to FR at all. The only reason they use any of it is because the modules are written with that as the default...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 01, 2021, 06:57:42 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 01, 2021, 06:15:58 PM
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.
Ehhh, I'm unaware of the player-wide surveys that established that. Seems to me that TSR/WotC determined which setting would be featured in each edition, and not the players. I can say that most of the players I have known have no attachment to FR at all. The only reason they use any of it is because the modules are written with that as the default...
If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?
Quote from: Shasarak on August 01, 2021, 07:07:20 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 01, 2021, 06:57:42 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 01, 2021, 06:15:58 PM
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.
Ehhh, I'm unaware of the player-wide surveys that established that. Seems to me that TSR/WotC determined which setting would be featured in each edition, and not the players. I can say that most of the players I have known have no attachment to FR at all. The only reason they use any of it is because the modules are written with that as the default...
If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?
If I printed 30 of A and 5 of B, then sold your numbers, then I'd probably make more of B. I had a 33% demand for A and 100% for B.
Quote from: Shasarak on August 01, 2021, 07:07:20 PM
If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?
I feel that it would be hard not to sell 10 of A before 5 or B when B doesn't exist as an option until well after A has been released and supplemented numerous times. If at all, in the case of the current edition. They can't sell more of Dragonlance or Planescape or Spelljammer or Dark Sun if they don't release them. Sure, FR might have sold more in some previous editions of the game (mainly because of its more frequent released supplement books), but we won't know which setting would sell more than FR in this edition until it's out. And even then, the only thing we might have to measure that by is Amazon rankings, because I'm sure they won't release a numeric sales comparison between the existing settings and the "new-old" settings they claim to be releasing.
I feel like any decently-done DL setting book will probably blow the doors off of all of the current setting specific books. But then FR is kinda in just about
everything WotC have released to date, so do we count all of those books in FR's corner too then? Or just SCAG? I'm pretty certain DL could outsell that.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 01, 2021, 07:39:10 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 01, 2021, 07:07:20 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 01, 2021, 06:57:42 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 01, 2021, 06:15:58 PM
Krynn has been around for almost as long as the Realms but just failed to capture that critical mass of appeal that the Realms did.
Ehhh, I'm unaware of the player-wide surveys that established that. Seems to me that TSR/WotC determined which setting would be featured in each edition, and not the players. I can say that most of the players I have known have no attachment to FR at all. The only reason they use any of it is because the modules are written with that as the default...
If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?
If I printed 30 of A and 5 of B, then sold your numbers, then I'd probably make more of B. I had a 33% demand for A and 100% for B.
So its just because they did not print enough?
Thats a new one, I guess.
Quote from: Dropbear on August 01, 2021, 07:51:51 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on August 01, 2021, 07:07:20 PM
If you sell 10 of A and 5 of B then which one would you choose to feature?
I feel that it would be hard not to sell 10 of A before 5 or B when B doesn't exist as an option until well after A has been released and supplemented numerous times. If at all, in the case of the current edition. They can't sell more of Dragonlance or Planescape or Spelljammer or Dark Sun if they don't release them. Sure, FR might have sold more in some previous editions of the game (mainly because of its more frequent released supplement books), but we won't know which setting would sell more than FR in this edition until it's out. And even then, the only thing we might have to measure that by is Amazon rankings, because I'm sure they won't release a numeric sales comparison between the existing settings and the "new-old" settings they claim to be releasing.
Greyhawk was released in 1980
Dragonlance was released in 1984
Forgotten Realms was released in 1987
2nd Edition was released in 1989
So it seems like it is the opposite of what you claim, 2e deciding to go with the "new" hotness rather then the older established campaign settings.
QuoteI feel like any decently-done DL setting book will probably blow the doors off of all of the current setting specific books. But then FR is kinda in just about everything WotC have released to date, so do we count all of those books in FR's corner too then? Or just SCAG? I'm pretty certain DL could outsell that.
I have not seen any decently done setting books from WotC for so long that I dont believe they have it in them.
TSR/WotC has made no less than five major attempts at pushing Dragonlance gaming, and each attempt except the last sputtered out—and that last was outsourced to a third party for everything after the core setting. It's been successful in novels, but the game audience just isn't there.
Most things sputter out and Dragonlance wasn't Dragonlance anymore anyhow.
In fact, Dragonlance holds the dubious honor of being the most story-raped RPG setting, with multiple game paradigm shifting events changing the flavour of what it actually meant to play a DL campaign significantly. While the Realms endured this, too, they weren't as deeply affected from a rules
and background perspective.
This is actually an interesting topic and deserves some further analysis:
Most designers would agree,
to keep things fresh, you gotta introduce some change from time to time. While I don't personally agree and while there's franchises who are just fine without it (for instance
Lord o.t. Rings), within the particular strategy of TSR/WOTC it made some sense.
Dragonlance had many loyal fans, attested by the absurd amount of third rate novels being produced. So how would you tap into their wallets?
Since FR and later Eberron was the main supplement focus, DL became an experimental platform. The bizarre shakeups were nostalgically connected by introducing second or third generation family of the Heroes of the Lance who suffered through these idiotic setting changes and twists. Surely the
suckers fans could buy at least a couple of additional supplements, which then didn't appear or were very subpar to begin with. But then the nostalgic value gets diminished through shamelessly pimping out the abused setting.
Oh wait, we'll just do another shakeup, this time we'll get it right!This was all before the era of the brazen reboot. Now the optimal solution to the milking problem of nostalgic hearts is better understood. And if done correctly, it also introduces new fans!
QuoteThe problem with Krynn is that it really has one epic story to tell and its already been told.
Thats not to say there are not still stories that you can tell in Krynn but none of them is going to be as epic as the War of the Lance.
There is something to this and I've met countless people telling me the exact same thing over the gaming table. TSR/WOTC/HASBRO probably was aware of the sentiment.
It's simply a fuckup by the designers, because the campaign source material (both the '87 and '92 books, which were ok but certainly not great) did a piss-poor job of introducing an exciting post war situation. In fact, why even end post-war?
The real gem was the Taladas box from 89. (btw this is a big recommendation to check it out. If you're in need for a cool standard-ish setting that supports lots of playstyles, this is it!) And if the designers had any sense, they would have simply switched continents and continue the war. But we don't have guys who understand both game design, story design and sales.
I don't know how this reboot will take place. There's multiple angles from which to approach it and there worst would be a straight rewrite, complete with a more inclusive cast and stronker womb-men.
Reboot v2 would entail a retelling with different twists. The story would branch off immediately and permanently kill off a character or two to make it clear.
The best thing would be a parallel story of a new group losely in contact with the Lance Heroes (maybe underlings), focusing on what came after the war and fleshing out a chessboard of interesting, war torn regions. The whole religious angle of gods coming in and heading off away again and again should be dropped like the foul smelling potato it always was.
The Kinslayer and Dwarfgate Wars are two interesting time periods for a campaign. And there are others.
The overall theme of evil turning upon itself may have had a bigger impact than the heroes. It has been a minute, but I have run plenty of DL campaigns that were not tied to the Heroes of the Lance.
Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on August 02, 2021, 05:17:09 AM
Reboot v2 would entail a retelling with different twists. The story would branch off immediately and permanently kill off a character or two to make it clear.
Good, maybe Sturm can make it though the whole way this time.
Kill off Flint and Tasslehoff, no one likes that comedy duo.
Quote from: Shasarak on August 02, 2021, 05:31:32 PM
Quote from: strcondex18cha3 on August 02, 2021, 05:17:09 AM
Reboot v2 would entail a retelling with different twists. The story would branch off immediately and permanently kill off a character or two to make it clear.
Good, maybe Sturm can make it though the whole way this time.
Kill off Flint and Tasslehoff, no one likes that comedy duo.
Kill off all the main characters and replace them with Hip Teens.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 29, 2021, 01:09:09 PMI wouldn't let 2021 WotC within a country mile of anything I actually cared about.
If "country mile" is the new term for "light year", I'm good with that distance.
ALL of my players had read the Dragonlance novels several times before 2e ever dropped. We all loved them up to War of the Twins.
None of them wanted to play in Dragonlance - though we'd run the modules to death. We loves the elements of setting, but frankly, I didn't feel the system captured what we envisioned from the books.
The *absolute* best use I ever got out of Dragonlance was mining the holy fuck out of it for Spelljammer. Knights of Solamnia establishing a keep on the Rock of Bral? Fuck yeah. Minotaur from the League PC, slugging it out in fighting pits among the stars? Kender in Spaaaace?
Plus it allowed me to distance my feelings from the abomination they turned DL into after nuking Tasslehoff.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 31, 2021, 02:51:02 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:16:12 AM
Does an alternate universe of the prior work count as new or does that set off your nerd autism too?
If you see any disagreement to your ideas as just misplaced nitpicking (even though I stated im not a hyper stickler for canon), and start off the conversation that I am a fool for disagreeing with you, then I don't think it really makes sense for me to continue the conversation with me since you see me in such a low light.
I'm sorry. I'm frustrated.
I understand what you guys mean by franchises being ruined. I keep seeing that all the time.
I'm something of a stickler for continuity. I hate retcons, particularly because most of the time they're terrible (the Blizzard IPs are my go-to example), so I have a preference for reboots. But only if done well.
For example, the 2002 He-Man reboot was good. It respected its predecessors. Many of the Transformers cartoons (which are all reboots) are great.
Transformers is a perfect case study for how to experiment with reboots. https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 04, 2021, 04:24:23 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 31, 2021, 02:51:02 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 31, 2021, 08:16:12 AM
Does an alternate universe of the prior work count as new or does that set off your nerd autism too?
If you see any disagreement to your ideas as just misplaced nitpicking (even though I stated im not a hyper stickler for canon), and start off the conversation that I am a fool for disagreeing with you, then I don't think it really makes sense for me to continue the conversation with me since you see me in such a low light.
I'm sorry. I'm frustrated.
I understand what you guys mean by franchises being ruined. I keep seeing that all the time.
I'm something of a stickler for continuity. I hate retcons, particularly because most of the time they're terrible (the Blizzard IPs are my go-to example), so I have a preference for reboots. But only if done well.
For example, the 2002 He-Man reboot was good. It respected its predecessors. Many of the Transformers cartoons (which are all reboots) are great.
Transformers is a perfect case study for how to experiment with reboots. https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Continuity
Remember all the times the Bible got reconned? Good times.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 04, 2021, 04:24:23 PMI'm sorry. I'm frustrated.
I understand what you guys mean by franchises being ruined. I keep seeing that all the time.
Err...Apology accepted, but why the 180? This is pretty radically different from the 'authors should do whatever with pre-existing materials' angle.