Quote from: BedrockBrendan;683847I don't think 4E is poorly designed but I do think it quite obviously failed as far as editions of D&D go.

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4E did exceptionally poorly as an edition of dungeons and dragons.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;683847Sure, they always see their new edition as an improvement. But I think the key difference in this instance is they are visibly backtracking from the changes 4E introduced. So it isn't the standard transition.

I don't think 4E is poorly designed but I do think it quite obviously failed as far as editions of D&D go. The fanbase really fractured around it in a way I never seen before. This is not simply building on what came before. I just don't see any other way to read all the developments, news, and statements we've seen over the last few years. 4E did exceptionally poorly as an edition of dungeons and dragons.

Quote from: 1989;683773Anyone who likes 4e is no friend of authentic TSR D&D.

Quote from: LibraryLass;683873I wasn't aware we were only allowed to like one kind of thing. I guess I'll throw all the pasta and beans out of my pantry, because since Chinese food is my favorite I can't genuinely enjoy Italian or Mexican food anymore

Quote from: Rincewind1;683874You'd better, or else the RPG Police will come to your house and arrest you.

Quote from: JonWake;683879Ah, don't worry about them. They're mostly idiots. I just put on a fake mustache when I play.

Quote from: Rincewind1;683880They are? The Board Games Police are pretty tough lads.

Quote from: JonWake;683890Oh, the Board Games Police are some right bastards. The RPG Police are as passive as Ghandi's diaper.

Quote from: robiswrong;683891Passive?  Have you ever EATEN curry?

Quote from: 1989;683773People seem to ignore this point.

WotC designers admitted they done wrong with 4e.

They came right out and listed the faults . . . just as we had told them all along.

Anyone who likes 4e is no friend of authentic TSR D&D.

From what people say, it looks like WotC have returned to something that more closely resembles authentic D&D, which is TSR-era D&D.

Quote from: robiswrong;683632Some of it's supposed to be your ability to provoke and piss off your opponent so they're not thinking rationally - I've seen people do *very* stupid things when pissed off, and done some *very* stupid things when pissed off.  And if you think people think rationally and coolly when in the middle of anything resembling a fight, then you probably haven't been in one.

But, yeah, there are times when it (and the general 4e policy of 'powers *work*, but the justification may be different') stretch believability.  So if you're going to play 4e, you just have to kind of come to terms with the fact that there are things in it that don't make total sense if you deconstruct them, accept it, and get on with the game because you like the other things it does well enough.

For me, that's no different than hp in any version of D&D, or lots of other things that are embedded into the game.  They work well enough in most cases, and in most cases you can come up with some kind of justification (even if it's not always the same one), but there are some edges that are just insane.  So if I'm playing D&D (any edition), I just shrug my shoulders, turn my suspension of disbelief to eleven, and get on with the things in the game that make it fun.

I may have an easier time with it, ironically, from my years playing GURPS.  I'm so used to a more realistic injury/damage/etc. system that I have to crank my suspension of disbelief up to get past hp, and so some of the illogical bits in 4e don't bug me as much.  If I was primarily a D&D player all along, and had really well internalized hp to the point where I *didn't* notice them, I could see the *new* illogical bits in 4e (as opposed to the old illogical bits from 3.x and before) seriously bugging me.

I don't think that "Come and Get It" is really the problem people have with 4e.  I think if they liked the game as a whole, they could get over it.  I think it's mainly that 4e is a different game that targets and satisfies different 'needs', and de-emphasizes some of the needs that 3.x satisfied very, very well.

Since one would assume that after close to ten years of 3.x, there would have been some self-selection in the playerbase for people *with* those needs, it's easy to see where there'd be a disconnect and disgust from 3.x fans going to 4e.

The fact that they smacked into the uncanny valley with the game mechanics (things are 'kinda like' earlier D&D, but different - see:  Saving Throws), it's not surprising to me at all that the game got such a visceral reaction.  Again, the uncanny valley effect probably hit me less because most of my gaming history *wasn't* D&D.