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The playtest is dead... long live the playtest!

Started by The_Rooster, August 15, 2013, 08:24:41 PM

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Bedrockbrendan

#270
August 20, 2013, 03:18:43 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;683637Ooze, of course. I am only a mindless construct when in my sporangia phase.

I'm just worried that I might be sitting across the table from this should we meet. :p




Why does shadowrun have a pink pony on the cover?

Votan

#271
August 20, 2013, 03:19:08 PM
Quote from: LibraryLass;683578Here's Come and Get It



It's similar but I wouldn't call it the same. Come and Get It isn't language-dependent, it's not a mind-control effect (like I said, it's more of a narrative-necessity thing, which one can definitely call bullshit and I wouldn't fault them, but I'd think of it as being a different line of thinking because mind-affecting spells are forcing the opponent's hand diegetically. To put it another way, with Greater Command, the Cleric is forcing his opponents to approach him, with Come and Get It, the fighter's player is forcing his opponents to approach him.), and Greater Command doesn't end with the caster automatically smacking everyone who ended up in his reach. Similar, but I don't think I'd call them equivalent, you know?

To me that's the crucial difference, one is describing what happened, the other is describing why it happened.

I think the analogy I used upthread was a Finger of Death spell vs. shooting someone with a poisoned arrow. They have a comparable effect (The target saves vs fortitude or poison/death ray depending on the edition, if the save fails it dies) but few would say they're equivalent.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the explanation.

In general, the Fighter powers really seem to be a way to try and model the dynamic nature of combat coupled with a turn based movement system (like attacks of opportunity were in 3rd edition).  I certainly got that impression with the Rogue and the powers that were available in that class.  Now whether it was a good emulation is a very different question.

Bedrockbrendan

#272
August 20, 2013, 03:23:58 PM
Quote from: Votan;683643Ah, okay. Thanks for the explanation.

In general, the Fighter powers really seem to be a way to try and model the dynamic nature of combat coupled with a turn based movement system (like attacks of opportunity were in 3rd edition).  I certainly got that impression with the Rogue and the powers that were available in that class.  Now whether it was a good emulation is a very different question.

I guess my issue with stuff like come and get it is struck me as very WWE "Saruman, your momma wears combat boots. You're going down, brother!" I just could never quite shake that image from my head with that ability. I will concede people don't always do what is wise, but it seemed slightly comic to me to exert that kind of influence with a taunt.

Votan

#273
August 20, 2013, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;683647I guess my issue with stuff like come and get it is struck me as very WWE "Saruman, your momma wears combat boots. You're going down, brother!" I just could never quite shake that image from my head with that ability. I will concede people don't always do what is wise, but it seemed slightly comic to me to exert that kind of influence with a taunt.

I suspect that it was an attempt to bundle the effect of a wide range of tactical effects together under a single mechanic.  Whereas in previous editions I would describe what my fighter was doing to try and come to grips with Saruman, the 4E approach just implements a mechanic that assumes that a veteran fighter had a trick to get the wizard close.  

I dislike it for the same reason I dislike defender mechanics.  But it does take out the issue of different DMs adjudicating creativity and tactical plans differently.  In some senses that can be a good thing if consistency between tables is an important design goal.

Exploderwizard

#274
August 20, 2013, 03:36:10 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;683647I guess my issue with stuff like come and get it is struck me as very WWE "Saruman, your momma wears combat boots. You're going down, brother!" I just could never quite shake that image from my head with that ability. I will concede people don't always do what is wise, but it seemed slightly comic to me to exert that kind of influence with a taunt.

:rotfl:

THAT is something (completely silly) that I can accept as highly improbable, but possible, laugh and move on.

Its because the same kind of taunt also works on a zombie that there are issues.

It is an example of the larger problem of rules first, game world a distant second that makes the system so jarring.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

soviet

#275
August 20, 2013, 03:36:55 PM
Quote from: Haffrung;6836414E didn't appeal to enough existing players, and didn't attract enough new players, to meet WotC's goals. Not making enough money to please Hasbro was a side-effect of that unpopularity.

You just have to listen to the comments by the Next developers. We lost track of what D&D fans really wanted.

That's true of all editions though. When you make a new edition you get someone in to fix what they think the flaws of the previous edition were, and the critics of the previous edition are part of your audience so you appeal to them in your advertising. It'll be true of 6e as well.
Buy Other Worlds, it\'s a multi-genre storygame excuse for an RPG designed to wreck the hobby from within

soviet

#276
August 20, 2013, 03:39:19 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;683654:rotfl:

THAT is something (completely silly) that I can accept as highly improbable, but possible, laugh and move on.

Its because the same kind of taunt also works on a zombie that there are issues.

It is an example of the larger problem of rules first, game world a distant second that makes the system so jarring.

I think 4e relies on players being able to justify the use of their powers through description. If you've got players who can and will do that, a lot of the 'that's jarring' problem goes away.
Buy Other Worlds, it\'s a multi-genre storygame excuse for an RPG designed to wreck the hobby from within

LibraryLass

#277
August 20, 2013, 03:40:29 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;683642Why does shadowrun have a pink pony on the cover?

It's a photoshop, sadly.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;683647I guess my issue with stuff like come and get it is struck me as very WWE "Saruman, your momma wears combat boots. You're going down, brother!" I just could never quite shake that image from my head with that ability. I will concede people don't always do what is wise, but it seemed slightly comic to me to exert that kind of influence with a taunt.

I actually had a fighter in 4e at one point that was flavored as a professional wrestler. It was pretty fucking fun.
http://rachelghoulgamestuff.blogspot.com/
Rachel Bonuses: Now with pretty

Quote from: noismsI get depressed, suicidal and aggressive when nerds start comparing penis sizes via the medium of how much they know about swords.

Quote from: Larsdangly;786974An encounter with a weird and potentially life threatening monster is not game wrecking. It is the game.

Currently panhandling for my transition/medical bills.

Haffrung

#278
August 20, 2013, 03:42:38 PM
Quote from: soviet;683655That's true of all editions though. When you make a new edition you get someone in to fix what they think the flaws of the previous edition were, and the critics of the previous edition are part of your audience so you appeal to them in your advertising. It'll be true of 6e as well.

I don't think that's true. Previous editions have been promoted as doing what you always wanted D&D to do, but in a better way. WotC is admitting that with 4E they took D&D in the wrong direction altogether.
 

Exploderwizard

#279
August 20, 2013, 03:55:42 PM
Quote from: soviet;683659I think 4e relies on players being able to justify the use of their powers through description. If you've got players who can and will do that, a lot of the 'that's jarring' problem goes away.

Justify the use of their powers? You mean play mother fucking may I? :rolleyes:
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

robiswrong

#280
August 20, 2013, 03:59:01 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;683674Justify the use of their powers? You mean play mother fucking may I? :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure that's not what he meant.  "Come up with a description for how this makes sense" is probably closer to what he meant.

Not justify in terms of asking the GM if they can use the power.

Rincewind1

#281
August 20, 2013, 04:02:49 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;683637Ooze, of course. I am only a mindless construct when in my sporangia phase.

I'm just worried that I might be sitting across the table from this should we meet. :p


What was seen can not be unseen.
Furthermore, I consider that  This is Why We Don\'t Like You thread should be closed

Mistwell

#282
August 20, 2013, 04:05:22 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;683579No, I've never liked Traveler.

Traveller, on the other hand, I view as a tool. Certain versions are a better fitting tool for the campaign ideas that I have. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. It is a very good tool, but still a tool for playing RPGs.

That is like 4E. If I wanted to play a version of D&D that resembles WoW and provides a good boardgame miniatures version of that with a twink wushu flavor reminiscant of Exalted - then 4E is the version of D&D I would use. It is just that the playstyle of 4E does not appeal to me.

The rabid 4E fanatics are a turn-off as well. Not the fans, the fanatics (why I keep using the terms 4venger and 4ron).

I agree the rabid 4e fanatics are a turn-off.  The rabid Pathfinder fanatics are a turn-off for me as well.  Rabid fandom in general makes me instinctively pull away.  I can sometimes get over it, and I don't know if my reaction is a "fair" reaction, but it's a real reaction.

Mistwell

#283
August 20, 2013, 04:08:23 PM
Quote from: Bill;683586I have years of 4e experience; I play it, and gm it, both, currently.

I hate 'Come and Get it'  because no matter how much a warrior insults a mages mother, or calls him a coward, the mage is NOT going to walk over and get stabbed. period.

Well, most mages anyway.

Some 4E martial powers cross the line from martial to mystical in my opinion, and I don't usually like that.

Unless its a mystic warrior :)

Yeah see I never viewed the power as magical in nature, I viewed it as story-game in nature.  As in the player was taking narrative control over the monster and making them move to a specific spot, not through magic, but through some sort of fucked-up mundane taunt power that had something similar to an intimidate power involved.

Warthur

#284
August 20, 2013, 04:26:07 PM
Quote from: LibraryLass;683289Show me a spell that does what Come and Get it does. Show me even one.
I think it might help to look at it from a different perspective: how is Come and Get It to be rationalised *without* magic when it can affect opponents who shouldn't be capable of responding to a fighter taunting them from the other side of a room? If a golem is created with magical instructions to target magic-users first, for instance, how does Come and Get It override that?
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don\'t want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

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