Quote from: Mistwell;683283None of TCO, lokiare, or blacksheepcannibal claim to be 4e experts in that thread.

My friend has never claimed to be an expert at motorcycle repair.  However, his actions and conversations over the years clearly have illustrated that he is.

Can't lawyer-speak your way out this one.

QuoteNone of TCO, lokiare, or blacksheepcannibal claim mundane classes were able to replicate the spells and/or powers of caster classes in 4e in that thread.

So, are you mis-remembering, or simply lying?

Read them again.  I know you said you did, but clearly you didn't.  Because both TCO and lokaire have described at least once that their idea of 4e style of play includes fighters (or other mundane classes) having powers that replicate spell effects.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683281I gave you the links.  I gave you the names.  I even gave you quotes for Christ's sake.  So you're lying.  Those were given to you.

A link to the start of a 24 page thread, that upon investigation did not support your claim. Then a link to the start of a 17 page thread that also did not support your claim. No precise link to a post, no quote that supports your position. Then the poster you claimed to be quoting turns up and also does not support your claim.

Anyone reading this thread can see you are wrong. But the more you thrash around the more it looks like you have been caught in a lie rather than you just made a mistake.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683281What you did was say that I made a "daft" claim when in fact I was very clear from the beginning that it was not my claim.  You've also said that a group of people widely known to be the biggest fans and experts of a system should automatically be assumed to be lying.

You claimed that this was a common thing for 4e fans to say and yet you cannot provide one example of a 4e fan saying it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683280I just did.  When you give fighters abili....er...powers that replicate the effects of a spell, that's exactly the same thing as saying "fighters being able to replicate spells."

Because that's what replicate means.  You're replicating the effect.  Spell, power, whatever term doesn't matter.  The point is that you're giving the fighter a way to replicate the effect of a spell.

Nobody is talking about replicating the effects of spells except you. All I was saying is that I'd like to be able to use powers that are as potent and awesome as what a caster can do at that level. Not by replicating magic, but by having purely physical skills that are just that damn good.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683280I just did.  When you give fighters abili....er...powers that replicate the effects of a spell, that's exactly the same thing as saying "fighters being able to replicate spells."

Because that's what replicate means.  You're replicating the effect.  Spell, power, whatever term doesn't matter.  The point is that you're giving the fighter a way to replicate the effect of a spell.

Show me a spell that does what Come and Get it does. Show me even one.

Quote from: soviet;683287A link to the start of a 24 page thread, that upon investigation did not support your claim. Then a link to the start of a 17 page thread that also did not support your claim. No precise link to a post, no quote that supports your position.

Anyone reading this thread can see you are wrong. But the more you thrash around the more it looks like you have been caught in a lie rather than you just made a mistake.



You claimed that this was a common thing for 4e fans to say and yet you cannot provide one example of a 4e fan saying it.

Firstly, the first link did also have the conversation about this topic.  Clearly you never did read it.

Secondly, I even pasted quotes from there into this thread.  You seem to be ignoring all of the objective data that is proving you wrong.

Shine on, crazy diamond.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683290You seem to be ignoring all of the objective data that is proving you wrong.

Shine on, crazy diamond.

OMFG he's talking to himself now, the breakdown is complete.

This is just sad.

Quote from: LibraryLass;683289Show me a spell that does what Come and Get it does. Show me even one.

First, that's not the only power a fighter has.  Lokaire also mentioned effectively teleporting out of the grasp of whatever.

Secondly, even if that was the only power, I need to find just one spell that forces a target(s) to come to you?  There are several that can do that.  Suggestion?  Charm person?  Teleport other?  Trobriand's Baleful Teleport? Command?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683286My friend has never claimed to be an expert at motorcycle repair.  However, his actions and conversations over the years clearly have illustrated that he is.

Caught lying again.  Here is what you said:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683115The group that defines themselves as 4e experts...Running counter to my bias?  Dude, I already told you I don't pay 4e.  I don't know what powers do what.  So when a group of self professed 4e experts and defenders say that this is how it works in 4e and this is what they want in 5e in order for them to get the 4e playstyle, I have no reason to automatically assume they are lying.

You know what "defines themselves" means, right? You know what "self-professed" means, right? Neither means "implied by actions and conversations over years".  In fact, those phrases are the phrases you use to demonstrate it's not implied, but EXPLICIT.

QuoteRead them again.  I know you said you did, but clearly you didn't.  Because both TCO and lokaire have described at least once that their idea of 4e style of play includes fighters (or other mundane classes) having powers that replicate spell effects.

No, they do not.  I read it.  Carefully.  Looking specifically for your claim.  They don't make that claim.  None of them do.  They're talking about mundane powers on par with spell powers, as in potency, not replicating spells.  Those are the very words used, "on par with".  Nobody makes the claim you're talking about.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683292First, that's not the only power a fighter has.  Lokaire also mentioned effectively teleporting out of the grasp of whatever.

Secondly, even if that was the only power, I need to find just one spell that forces a target(s) to come to you?  There are several that can do that.  Suggestion?  Charm person?  Teleport other?  Trobriand's Baleful Teleport? Command?

So wait now it is your claim that fighters can replicate spells? You were pretty insistent earlier that you never said this, it was the ghostly internet experts.

Quote from: soviet;683294So wait now it is your claim that fighters can replicate spells? You were pretty insistent earlier that you never said this, it was the ghostly internet experts.

Pretty much.

Quote from: Mistwell;683293Caught lying again.  Here is what you said:



You know what "defines themselves" means, right? You know what "self-professed" means, right? Neither means "implied by actions and conversations over years".  In fact, those phrases are the phrases you use to demonstrate it's not implied, but EXPLICIT.

It's actually kind of cute to watch you try to weasel your way and change things, hoping no one notices.  In order for it to be a lie I would have had to say that they never claimed to be experts.  Can you show me where I explicitly said that?

Didn't think so.  Now you did try to say, "Show me where they claimed to be experts in that thread."

Now, that's pretty disingenuous, isn't it?  Because they've made a lot more posts in a lot more forums than just that thread.  And I'm not going to go through every forum on the internet looking for every post they ever made.  What I do know, and most reasonable people who have been paying attention would agree, is that over the years, they have in fact positioned themselves as experts of 4e, either directly, or by inference due to their frequent correcting of others as to how 4e is actually played.

QuoteNo, they do not.  I read it.  Carefully.  Looking specifically for your claim.  They don't make that claim.  None of them do.  They're talking about mundane powers on par with spell powers, as in potency, not replicating spells.  Those are the very words used, "on par with".  Nobody makes the claim you're talking about.

Once again, lokaire specifically gives an example of being able to teleport, along with some other abilities.  If you read the thread like you claimed, you would have seen that.

Quote from: soviet;683294So wait now it is your claim that fighters can replicate spells? You were pretty insistent earlier that you never said this, it was the ghostly internet experts.

You know, just because you keep trying to find inconsistency where there is none doesn't mean you'll actually ever find one.

Me:  These people are saying this
You:  You made this claim
Me: No I didn't.  The very first post is me saying the others made that claim.  I don't know enough about 4e to make such a claim
Library lass:  Find one spell that replicates this 4e power
Me: Ok.  How about these.l

There's no inconsistency there.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683306Me:  These people are saying this
You:  You made this claim
Me: No I didn't.  The very first post is me saying the others made that claim.  I don't know enough about 4e to make such a claim
Library lass:  Find one spell that replicates this 4e power
Me: Ok.  How about these.l

There's no inconsistency there.

You know what? On re-reading that's true, Library Lass did ask you to do that. Fair enough, I retract the point.

Although I also note that that part of the thread started when LL asked you to show an example of a 4e fan claiming what you said, and instead you tried to provide the explanation yourself. So you haven't really answered LL's original question.

Guys, come on, the point is 4e sucks.

We all know that.

WotC knows that.

And anyone who drank the WotC Kool-Aid and supported that pile of shit should hang his head in shame.

Someone contact a behavioral geneticist.  Sac has a complete and total lack of the "resist troll" gene.  It's unbelievable.

:popcorn:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;683306Now you did try to say, "Show me where they claimed to be experts in that thread."

Now, that's pretty disingenuous, isn't it?  Because they've made a lot more posts in a lot more forums than just that thread.  And I'm not going to go through every forum on the internet looking for every post they ever made.  What I do know, and most reasonable people who have been paying attention would agree, is that over the years, they have in fact positioned themselves as experts of 4e, either directly, or by inference due to their frequent correcting of others as to how 4e is actually played.

You said they said they were self-professed experts. I said bullshit they say no such thing.  The you shifted to "it's implied by their actions over years". I repeated your words back to you, and now you're claiming it WAS explicit, just not in that thread, but in some unspecified other thread, somewhere, at some point, which you won't find?

And then you again return to the "by inference" claim, after you previously made it very clear to me you mean they said it explicitly.

So yes Sac, you're a fucking liar.   We just established that.  They didn't proclaim themselves to be experts.  

Now, if "posts for years about 4e, correcting others misconceptions about 4e" qualifies one as a 4e expert, then I would be a 4e expert.  Indeed, a few years ago people joked about the Mistophacy I made concerning 4e, and regularly called me a 4e fanboi.  And I've repeatedly told you that you're wrong about this issue in 4e.  So if that makes one an expert, then I would meet that definition, and I am telling you you're wrong. TCO told you the same thing.

QuoteOnce again, lokaire specifically gives an example of being able to teleport, along with some other abilities.  If you read the thread like you claimed, you would have seen that.

Neither he, nor anyone else, says or implies that mundane powers can replicate spells.  Never.  Not once.  Not Lokaire, not CO, nobody.  There is nothing in that thread which supports your claim.  IF YOU DISAGREE, QUOTE IT.  I've done all that could be done at this point to disprove a negative.  You said it was there, I did a search and didn't find it.  Then I read every post in that thread, and didn't find it.  Then I went back to look at the names you claimed, and never found it.  CO also came here, and said he never said such a thing.  Soviet quoted you the only text in that thread that even uses the word "replicate", and it's one that seems to explain your mistake with CO, and you claimed it wasn't that.

So, if you disagree, at this point the burden is back on you to find it.  Right now, you just look like you were mistaken, and when backed into a corner you just started to lie and make personal attacks and weasel.  It looks bad man.  I never thought of you as one of the assholes.  Right now, that's what you are. Time to put up or shut up.  I am sure you can save face at this point if you just back it down a bit, but will your ego let you?