I had a discussion on my blog and G+ about what I called Whiners. These are the people who play one specific edition, any edition, and complain about it perpetually, about how it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, about how it's "broken", about how the publisher needs to fix it... and never, ever, do they switch to a different game or use a house rule to make their current game play the way they want it to play. They just whine about it continually.

It's possible that some are these are players only. They don't want to GM, they can't convince their fellow players to go along with any kind of change (or are afraid to suggest a change.) That might be an excuse, but then, why not find a group that plays the way they prefer?

No, I suspect something else. In particular, with regards to D&D, I suggested on G+ that most of the whiners have been the same people, across multiple editions. They have always played whatever the most recent edition is, and they have always whined. They whine and whine until a new edition comes out, they switch to that, and they keep whining. They are never satisfied.

Thus, some (all?) of the negative opinions of "4e players" is not really about 4e players, but about a particular group who just happens to be playing 4e *now*, but they were just as annoying back before there was a 4e, and were also the same people who whined back before there was a *3e*, perhaps even the same people who whined before 2e. When 5e comes out, they will switch, because they always do, but they will keep whining. They probably also whine about a lot of other, non-game things.

Thoughts?

There's probably truth to it.  Some people just love to whine about everything.  I certainly get that impression from reading certain forum boards.  You just want to reach out and slap them, "All you've done is bitch and moan, so why in God's name are you still reading/playing it?"  

However, the problem with most of the 4vengers is not that they whine about everything.  Quite the contrary, they whine about everything BUT 4e, which is the greatest thing ever and if you like anything else, you're engaging in badwrong fun.

Quote from: talysman;653574Thoughts?

This thread is
1) Too meta.
2) Too whiny.
3) Too speculative.
There's really nothing good about it.

I knew people like that with 3e, bitched about it constantly but never made a move to find something else. Though to be fair in my area it is a chore to get a game of anything but 3e or Pathfinder going. That may play a part in it, though I suspect they are just chronic whiners.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;653575There's probably truth to it.  Some people just love to whine about everything.  I certainly get that impression from reading certain forum boards.  You just want to reach out and slap them, "All you've done is bitch and moan, so why in God's name are you still reading/playing it?"  

However, the problem with most of the 4vengers is not that they whine about everything.  Quite the contrary, they whine about everything BUT 4e, which is the greatest thing ever and if you like anything else, you're engaging in badwrong fun.

I'm thinking I wouldn't even call what 4vengers do "whining". At worst, they're just fanatical about the thing they love. At best, maybe they're just ribbing people who play other editions?

I know I, as someone who prefers 0e, occasionally make jokes about 3e or 4e, but it's not like I really lose any sleep over those games, or worry about people playing them. I figure they probably like their game, so they should probably play it. And I figure there's got to be players of other editions who do the same: joke about how they think 0e sucks or 1e sucks, but really they don't care that much. I think there's too many cases where sensitive people interpret this kind of ribbing as some kind of "attack". Anyone who thinks you can "attack" a game, though, is an idiot; you can only attack a *discussion* about a game, swamping it with negative commentary to interrupt any useful conversation.

In that context, I think the 4vengers are very sensitive and have gone into some kind of permanent combat mode, but I don't think they're really whining about other games. A whine, I think, has to implicitly contain a plea that someone "fix it". 4vengers aren't asking that anything be fixed, except may that other gamers should stop playing other games or saying that other games are better for some purposes than 4e.

In their case, the whining is in the context of Next being announced and playtested.  A LOT of whining going on there.  It isn't just good enough to be content playing the game you like.  Nope, you have to be sure everyone knows, every day, how you're getting screwed.

Quote from: beejazz;653576This thread is
1) Too meta.
2) Too whiny.
3) Too speculative.
There's really nothing good about it.

And none of the other versions of this thread were any good, either.

The next one's gonna rock, though.

Then again, Warhammer 1e was the best Warhammer.

Quote from: Rincewind1;653607Then again, Warhammer 1e was the best Warhammer.

Damn fucking straight.

Third is second, and second is third.

Quote from: talysman;653595In that context, I think the 4vengers are very sensitive and have gone into some kind of permanent combat mode, but I don't think they're really whining about other games. A whine, I think, has to implicitly contain a plea that someone "fix it". 4vengers aren't asking that anything be fixed, except may that other gamers should stop playing other games or saying that other games are better for some purposes than 4e.

Five years of being constantly under fire from fans of the other editions will do that to the hardest core fanbase. "It's not real D&D!" Yeah, maybe not, so go off and play a version that you think is D&D. Stop fucking going on about it, unless you care more about the name than the game.

Quote from: talysman;653574Thoughts?

I'm sure its one among many problems. Ultimately I think it comes down to many people simply enjoy complaining. Its easier than coming up with something nice to say that is actually interesting and worth a response. Some people just crave attention. Some people are genuinely looking for honest debate. And some people genuinely dislike a system, have legitimate reasons for it, and very urgently want everyone in the world to know that. (shrug)

The thing about posts online, it doesn't matter how stupid, self-absorbed, offensive, or infuriating they are, reading them is always optional.

Quote from: Rincewind1;653607Then again, Warhammer 1e was the best Warhammer.

Preach it like it is.

Quote from: beejazz;653576This thread is
1) Too meta.
2) Too whiny.
3) Too speculative.
There's really nothing good about it.

You're just an edition-churner trying to get ThisThreadNEXT to ship too soon and gouge us fans of our hard-earned electrons.

Quote from: talysman;653574I had a discussion on my blog and G+ about what I called Whiners. These are the people who play one specific edition, any edition, and complain about it perpetually, about how it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, about how it's "broken", about how the publisher needs to fix it... and never, ever, do they switch to a different game or use a house rule to make their current game play the way they want it to play. They just whine about it continually.

To sum it up, you had a discussion about The Gaming Den.

Quote from: Ladybird;653628Five years of being constantly under fire from fans of the other editions will do that to the hardest core fanbase. "It's not real D&D!" Yeah, maybe not, so go off and play a version that you think is D&D. Stop fucking going on about it, unless you care more about the name than the game.

That's probably true. But again, I think there's some instances of taking things out of context. I've seen many cases where someone asks for opinions in a thread, and other people will post comparisons or personal experiences, and a sensitive soul will take the negative statements as some kind of crusade ("edition warring".) It's not. It's just someone expressing an opinion. If someone is busting into threads that are about 4e only or 3e only to say that those aren't real D&D, that's disruptive. In another context, though, it's just expressing an opinion. If someone doesn't like it, they can express a contrary opinion.

As an aside, this is one of (many) problems with The Banning Place. They interpret all negative comments (about 4e or Pathfinder, at least,) as "edition warring". They have no concept of context. They also interpret all positive comments about OD&D or 1e as edition warring, and the mods have a tendency to start off the negative comments themselves and reprimand anyone who disagrees with them, but that's another kind of stupid...

Sometimes partisans of other games offer a similar (but inaccurate) portrayal of people who have kept using old D&D or T&T books but house-ruled the hell out of them.

I have a friend who is basically an "AD&D forever" (and preferably all the time) guy. However, it's sometimes startling how ignorant he is of the actual by-the-book rules.