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Just saw this over at ENWorld. Is ANYONE surprised?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2874-Pathfinder-Online-Layoffs#.Veh9BfT6LfY (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2874-Pathfinder-Online-Layoffs#.Veh9BfT6LfY)

Only surprised that it took this long.

I was caught COMPLETELY unaware of this! Hell I didn't even know that there WAS a Pathfinder online game in development. Oh well, this article gets backstab damage against me I suppose. :p

And apparently Paizo customer service has been awful to this point concerning the Kickstarter and game...which goes against the popular "Paizo has awesome customer service" meme Paizobots always push. Take a look at the comments section of the Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo/comments).  So now Paizo is laying people off (OMG Paizo never lays people off!) and has bad customer service (OMG Paizo always has great customer service!) and appears to be circling the toilet on a Kickstarter they have thus far failed to deliver on (OMG Paizo always does what they say they are going to do!).

I do like many Paizo products (and own several), but I never liked the "Paizo is special" line the over-the-top Paizobots always push.  They're just a company, like any other.  They lay people off.  They outsource some jobs to China.  They sometimes have bad customer service.  They sometimes have dud products.  They sometimes fail to deliver.  None of this makes them a bad company or bad people - it just makes them a normal company with normal people.  Sometimes they do good stuff, sometimes bad stuff, sometimes adequate stuff.  Overall they're decent to good.  But, they're not special.

MMOs are like big-budget movies, only riskier and trickier. They have broken many men and stripped many deep coffers bare.

Quote from: Mistwell;853066And apparently Paizo customer service has been awful to this point concerning the Kickstarter and game...which goes against the popular "Paizo has awesome customer service" meme Paizobots always push. Take a look at the comments section of the Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo/comments).  So now Paizo is laying people off (OMG Paizo never lays people off!) and has bad customer service (OMG Paizo always has great customer service!) and appears to be circling the toilet on a Kickstarter they have thus far failed to deliver on (OMG Paizo always does what they say they are going to do!).

This game is being done by Goblinworks, which licensed the Pathfinder name from Paizo. It's not actually a Paizo product. It looks like Lisa Stevens from Paizo is stepping in to try and clean up the mess, kind of like how Stafford and Peterson have stepped in at Chaosium.

You could lay some blame at Paizo for doing business with Dancey, but it seems unfair to put it all on them.

CORRECTION: Looks like Lisa Stevens was at Goblineworks all along, so this is partly on her after all. It is still a separate company from Paizo though.

Quote from: Mistwell;853066I do like many Paizo products (and own several), but I never liked the "Paizo is special" line the over-the-top Paizobots always push.  

I have no particular love for Paizo, but I was under the impression that Goblinworks was a separate company. Ryan Dancey was involved; his track record continues...

Quote from: Baulderstone;853071This game is being done by Goblinworks, which licensed the Pathfinder name from Paizo.

This is, and always has been, a legal fiction.  It's a separate company Paizo created, for liability protection and other business reasons.  But, Lisa Stevens has always had authority there and is now the CEO, it's the MMO Paizo is making and promoting for their game, when you call their customer service it's Paizo employees who answer, when you want to discuss the game you go to the Paizo message boards, when they go to investors and ask for money it's with the backing of Paizo and Paizo's name they use to try and get that financing, when you look at the Goblinworks privacy policy it says, "Currently, Goblinworks works with Paizo, Inc. to manage certain customer data related to Kickstarter fulfilment and account management, and they retain all personal, financial, and demographic information provided to Goblinworks...", in the Kickstarter Paizo backed it and the Kickstarter said, "Paizo reached out to those publishers and asked them if they would be willing to donate a PDF or two (or sometimes even more) that we could bundle up and offer as part of the Crowdforger Kickstarter backers, and the response has been absolutely amazing—including Paizo's own contribution...", the Goblinworks employees that remain are now moving into the Paizo offices, etc..  We can pretend it's not all we want...but we all know it's Paizo.

Wow a MMORPG is failing?  I am shock.  No not really.  People the days of MMORPG have gone and past.  It's either WoW, Eve Oline, or some dinky free to play MMORPG.  It is suicide to make one now.  Pathfinder should had done a Shadowrun Returns type of game.

I was caught totally unawares.  Not ashamed to admit that.  Didn't see it coming at all.

Cuz I thought this thing was dead for years!

Quote from: Snowman0147;853101Wow a MMORPG is failing?  I am shock.  No not really.  People the days of MMORPG have gone and past.  It's either WoW, Eve Oline, or some dinky free to play MMORPG.  It is suicide to make one now.  Pathfinder should had done a Shadowrun Returns type of game.

Mostly true on the MMO front — the fad's definitely dialed back and even WoW is bleeding subscribers, but I feel GW2, ESO and Neverwinter are doing fine, even if not "WoW in 2008" fine — but yeah, a more trad CRPG would probably have been a safer bet.

Pathfinder Online was a perfect example of Hubris.

How many tabletop games have been made into Videogames outside of Dungeons and Dragons? Oh, that's right, about zero, except for Whitewolf who got two Vampire Games, an aborted Werewolf game and an aborted MMO.

Quote from: Snowman0147;853101Wow a MMORPG is failing?  I am shock.  No not really.  People the days of MMORPG have gone and past.  It's either WoW, Eve Oline, or some dinky free to play MMORPG.  It is suicide to make one now.  Pathfinder should had done a Shadowrun Returns type of game.

While Blizzard has a billions-with-a-'B' deep budget thanks to WoW's success, I wouldn't be the farm on World of Warcraft these days.  Yeah I'm thinking MMOs as the unshakable gold standard might be done.  Maybe.  I could be wrong though.  But something tells me they're waning.

Quote from: Orphan81;853131Pathfinder Online was a perfect example of Hubris.

Correct me if I'm remembering this wrong...

I remember in the early days of this project listening to a podcast (I think it was Fear the Boot) where Dancey was a guest and claimed that his team was going to revolutionize the MMORPG genre and finally bridge the gap between tabletop RPGs' freedom and computer convenience that would in time pave the way for tabletop GM obsolescence.

This was also around the time he was making lots of smug statements about tabletop being doooooooomed.

I'll always be grateful to him for the SRD, but talk about hubris...

Quote from: Orphan81;853131Pathfinder Online was a perfect example of Hubris.

How many tabletop games have been made into Videogames outside of Dungeons and Dragons? Oh, that's right, about zero, except for Whitewolf who got two Vampire Games, an aborted Werewolf game and an aborted MMO.

You forgot some hunter games that play like Diablo.  Pretty decent games I might add.

Quote from: Orphan81;853131Pathfinder Online was a perfect example of Hubris.

How many tabletop games have been made into Videogames outside of Dungeons and Dragons? Oh, that's right, about zero, except for Whitewolf who got two Vampire Games, an aborted Werewolf game and an aborted MMO.

Dude there's a huge raft of WH40k and WHFB/FRP videogames.

Quote from: Snowman0147;853150You forgot some hunter games that play like Diablo.  Pretty decent games I might add.

Oh shit yeah, and I loved those games too..

So yes, the number 1 and number 2 publishers of RPG's are the only ones who have gotten videogames.

QuoteCorrect me if I'm remembering this wrong...

I remember in the early days of this project listening to a podcast (I think it was Fear the Boot) where Dancey was a guest and claimed that his team was going to revolutionize the MMORPG genre and finally bridge the gap between tabletop RPGs' freedom and computer convenience that would in time pave the way for tabletop GM obsolescence.

This was also around the time he was making lots of smug statements about tabletop being doooooooomed.

I'll always be grateful to him for the SRD, but talk about hubris.

Oh god yes... Back in 2012 when folks like Garatha Skara were going on and on about "Transmedia" being the future, and any company that didn't diversify their tabletop games into novels, comics, tv, movies, and videogames was doomed, DOOOMED...

QuoteDude there's a huge raft of WH40k and WHFB/FRP videogames.

You got me there, but it's because I primarily think of Warhammer as a wargame first and foremost and the RPG just being one of the spin offs like their books, and videogames...

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;853070MMOs are Collectible Card Games, only riskier and trickier. They have broken many men and stripped many deep coffers bare.

Better analogy.

Quote from: Omega;853155Better analogy.

How so? It's possible to do a CCG on the cheap. An MMO is always gonna take a pretty penny to develop.

Quote from: Orphan81;853131Pathfinder Online was a perfect example of Hubris.

How many tabletop games have been made into Videogames outside of Dungeons and Dragons? Oh, that's right, about zero, except for Whitewolf who got two Vampire Games, an aborted Werewolf game and an aborted MMO.

Shadowrun: four console games, SNES, Genesis, Sega CD, and XBox. At least one PC game. and a MUD.

Tunnels & Trolls: one or two PC games and one rather popular PC game made from the rules called Wasteland, which is the inspiration for Fallout.

Traveller: At least one PC game.

Space 1889: PC game.

Skyrealms of Jorune: PC game.

Champions: A failed PC game and then finally an MMO.

And a few others, not counting board games like Car Wars, Battletech, TOG, etc.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;853159How so? It's possible to do a CCG on the cheap. An MMO is always gonna take a pretty penny to develop.

There are countless dead companies now thanks to trying to get in on the CCG craze. A couple of major RPG companies and hundreds of little startups. CCGs are appallingly costly to make and can exceed the cost of minis intensive games. Retailers can and will flat out refuse to host them and are pressuring more and more to go to standalone or non-random expansion based formats.

Whenever a new designer asks on the forums how to make and publish a CCG, the usual answer is. Dont.

Back on topic. So how is this project supposed to get completed if they laid off the programmers?

MMOs are hard.

Quote from: Omega;853164Shadowrun: four console games, SNES, Genesis, Sega CD, and XBox. At least one PC game. and a MUD.

Tunnels & Trolls: one or two PC games and one rather popular PC game made from the rules called Wasteland, which is the inspiration for Fallout.

Traveller: At least one PC game.

Space 1889: PC game.

Skyrealms of Jorune: PC game.

Champions: A failed PC game and then finally an MMO.

And a few others, not counting board games like Car Wars, Battletech, TOG, etc.

My brain just stopped working apparently, considering I fucking OWN every Shadowrun videogame...Genesis, Supernintendo, and Returns (But not the shitty microsoft version)

Fuck me, I'm just flat out wrong... but in my defense I'm suffering from some extreme insomina at the moment.

Quote from: Omega;853167There are countless dead companies now thanks to trying to get in on the CCG craze. A couple of major RPG companies and hundreds of little startups. CCGs are appallingly costly to make and can exceed the cost of minis intensive games. Retailers can and will flat out refuse to host them and are pressuring more and more to go to standalone or non-random expansion based formats.

There are also countless dead RPG companies that happened during the D20 craze.  The analogy doesn't hold up.

Quote from: Omega;853167Whenever a new designer asks on the forums how to make and publish a CCG, the usual answer is. Dont.

And someone comes along and makes one that's actually pretty successful anyway, because they didn't listen to conventional wisdom.

Look up the electronic CCG called Hearthstone, which is put out by Blizzard.  Apple and Google have a deluge of pretty good ones as well which seem to be doing OK.

Quote from: Omega;853167Back on topic. So how is this project supposed to get completed if they laid off the programmers?

We haven't heard anything about this game for at least 4 years, what makes you think there was anything done in the first place?

Quote from: Orphan81;853172My brain just stopped working apparently, considering I fucking OWN every Shadowrun videogame...Genesis, Supernintendo, and Returns (But not the shitty microsoft version)

Fuck me, I'm just flat out wrong... but in my defense I'm suffering from some extreme insomina at the moment.

You have the Japan only Mega CD too? Ive only seen that in play as a demo at a convention way back.

Quote from: The Butcher;853123Mostly true on the MMO front — the fad's definitely dialed back and even WoW is bleeding subscribers, but I feel GW2, ESO and Neverwinter are doing fine, even if not "WoW in 2008" fine — but yeah, a more trad CRPG would probably have been a safer bet.

I think they are, but it's worth each of them is building on a tried and true videogame franchise; Guild Wars 2 is the sequel to an existing MMO and therefore could expect a certain portion of the market to give it attention, Neverwinter was building off the reputation of Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, neither of which were MMOs but which did have strong online communities and did have a strong multiplayer aspect and so could be expected to be have a certain overlap with the MMO audience, and Elder Scrolls Online is the MMO adaptation of one of the most popular computer RPG franchises out there at the moment.

Compare to Pathfinder, which prior to this had no exposure in the world of video games whatsoever. Like you say, making a trad CRPG should really have been their first port of call - that could allow them to build an audience beyond the tabletop RPG crowd and also get some experience under their belt before moving on to the MMO. Even Blizzard had to cut their teeth on the conventional Warcraft games before doing World of Warcraft, after all.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;853177There are also countless dead RPG companies that happened during the D20 craze.  The analogy doesn't hold up.

And someone comes along and makes one that's actually pretty successful anyway, because they didn't listen to conventional wisdom.

Look up the electronic CCG called Hearthstone, which is put out by Blizzard.  Apple and Google have a deluge of pretty good ones as well which seem to be doing OK.

We haven't heard anything about this game for at least 4 years, what makes you think there was anything done in the first place?

1: Dead RPGs dont tend to bankrupt the designer. CCGs and minis games have. Its the startup cost that is the factor.

2: In the last 10 years that has been just short of zero. Chaotic comes to mind as the most recent to still be around. Most others last months at best, assuming they even get to the retail stage.

3: Even the ECGs are faltering. One problem is that they have a faster burnout stage where players realize that they are paying for nothing. And the ephemeral nature is causing a gradual distrust. A couple of mif-level ECGs just folded and players are starting to clue in.

4: From the article linked it sounded like they had been progressing it, else they would not be asking for more funding?

Wasn't there a RIFTS videogame that bombed? Or did that ever even come out?

I think the RIFTS game was for a cell phone or something? I remember it was called "the taco," can't recall what it was called for real.

The ShadowRun games are pretty solid, fwiw, you should check them out if you're into SR.

Funny thing, I remember catching crap for being mystified that people would put money into the PF MMO--it wasn't even going to use the PF rules, which to me makes it just another MMO with a license.

The real issue with MMOs is they cost many millions to make, many millions on top of that to be any good, and their all-consuming nature means that if you play one MMO, you really don't have time for another That was fine back when there were like 3 decent MMOs around (EQ and Asheron's Call), but once the "one game to rule them all" came around (no  need to name), there's just no way anyone else can fit into the market. You also need a critical mass to be sustaining...and that's a problem, too, since most everyone is playing the "one game."

And this is the real comparison to CCGs. Nobody can really play 2 CCGs seriously, they're bloody expensive...and you kinda need someone to play with, just about as problematic as for a MMO.  CCG companies go bankrupt often, too, but it's more a matter of "there's no way we're putting another 10k into this," while with MMOs, you gotta spend 2 million before you can even consider if bankruptcy is the right option.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;853206Wasn't there a RIFTS videogame that bombed? Or did that ever even come out?

It came out on the nGage. It bombed _for that platform_.

I followed the Goblinworks Twitch channel and watched their public play streams. Game looked like EQ, and that won't fly now; hell, WOW's graphic quality gets shit on nowadays, so go figure what a new MMO has to bring to the table. None of the promised features were panning out, defaulting instead to a mush of a themepark MMO- and thus not justifying its existence where WOW is still king by a country mile.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;853206Wasn't there a RIFTS videogame that bombed? Or did that ever even come out?

Yes. It apparently did come out in some small release. I am pretty sure one of my players had a copy. But might be mixing it up with the un-related MMO.

re-found it. Rifts: Promise of Power for the N-Gage in 2005. What the heck is an N-Gage?

N-Gage was a cell phone as dedicated portable game console. It failed because it did not establish easy user interface, cheaper disposable games, on an established application provider platform, and freedom of cell contract. It would take until Apple to get all those pieces together bit by bit until the iPhone became a perfect storm for casual gaming apps. Puzzle solvers have never been happier, until pay to win (and social data collaters) arose and now things are swinging back to quality productions, albeit slowly.

Think smartphone before there was smart phones.  I think the game came with cartridges.  It was suppose to compete with Nintendo and Sony at the time.  It was a flop as you can see.

Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;853054Just saw this over at ENWorld. Is ANYONE surprised?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2874-Pathfinder-Online-Layoffs#.Veh9BfT6LfY (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2874-Pathfinder-Online-Layoffs#.Veh9BfT6LfY)

Personally I think it's a shame.  I'd much rather MMO in Golarion than Neverwinter as envisioned by the microtransaction pimps and whores at ARC Games.  75 fucking dollars to play a dragonborn?

The crazy goblins would have been pretty funny.

Quote from: Orphan81;853152Oh god yes... Back in 2012 when folks like Garatha Skara were going on and on about "Transmedia" being the future, and any company that didn't diversify their tabletop games into novels, comics, tv, movies, and videogames was doomed, DOOOMED...

wotc has comic books, video games, novels, a movie in the works (fucking please please be decent) and likely a raft of cartoons. I dunno about doomed but the number one rpg company is doing exactly that.

Quote from: Orphan81;853131Pathfinder Online was a perfect example of Hubris.

How many tabletop games have been made into Videogames outside of Dungeons and Dragons? Oh, that's right, about zero, except for Whitewolf who got two Vampire Games, an aborted Werewolf game and an aborted MMO.

There's Drakensang Online, which is much bigger in Europe than the US, and is based on Der Schwarz Auge, the biggest pen-and-paper RPG in Germany.

So the pathfinder mmo is failing before it was even finished? colour me completely unsurprised, it was a pile of utter shite and had literally nothing to do with golarion or pathfinder at all on top of being so badly dated graphically that even eq1 looks more cutting edge and modern....so er yeah it was a waste of time and effort even bothering to continue it in that pisspoor state.

As others have said goblinworks should have gone for a more traditional crpg or two first so folks outside the limited playerbase of the tabletop could learn about the setting and such, then if mmorpg's are still a think in say 5 years maybe have a go at one then if the golarion games are mega hits(which tbh i doubt they would be with dancey involved).

Well, I never saw the boondoggle coming, but to be fair I was blissfully unaware of an attempt at a Pathfinder MMO to begin with.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;853284Well, I never saw the boondoggle coming, but to be fair I was blissfully unaware of an attempt at a Pathfinder MMO to begin with.

It's kind of like that time in 1987 when I got pissed off because the Jefferson Starship front office was slow getting my season tickets out and I missed a really rare, really fucking smokin' 'We Built This City (On Rock and Roll)' at the Clark County Fair. I got over it. But sometimes, torn by both self-loathing and a diabolical predilection for insomnia, I wake up late in the night and scream 'Fuck you. Starship!' at bloodcurdling volumes. Boondoggles, man. Fuck boondoggles.

Quote from: Warthur;853186I think they are, but it's worth each of them is building on a tried and true videogame franchise

That seems to be a prerequisite; very few MMOs (oleies like EQ1, DAoC, GW1, EVE, and more recently The Secret World) succeed without building on established IP.

And even that is no guarantee; WAR died an ignonimious death and Age of Conan... is it even still around?

Quote from: The Butcher;853307And even that is no guarantee; WAR died an ignonimious death and Age of Conan... is it even still around?

It is. I'm still playing it.

Funcom has up until December 2016, though, before officially going bankrupt. And that's after they managed to get a 6-months debt extension from their biggest creditor.

Quote from: Jason D;853276There's Drakensang Online, which is much bigger in Europe than the US, and is based on Der Schwarz Auge, the biggest pen-and-paper RPG in Germany.

Thanks for reminding me.

There is also at least one, maybee two PC ports of Drakar oc Demoner.

Quote from: Orphan81;853131Pathfinder Online was a perfect example of Hubris.

This. The original business model that was based on the Eve Online Subscription Model is good and it works. It wasn't executed in this case though...

With Eve Online a very small tightly focused team of ten or so game designers built a beautiful and playable science fiction world with some basic combat, trade, and crafting mechanics, then they setup one unified server, and signed up people to play. The team focused on creating aesthetic experiences over game balance, and game play.

The Eve universe was visually stunning, and their was a superb original soundtrack that released by the composer Jon Hallur that was included in game with a jukebox.  I used to sit for hours in an asteroid belt somewhere happily mining with my gaming peeps listening to songs like Under The Asteroids, Jovian Influence,  Miner Stories, Hidden Momentos, and We Fight Proud for the Holder. There was really nothing else like this in online gaming...

The Eve Online team continued working on improving this game with regularly scheduled patch releases that included bug fixes, game play rebalancing, updates, new content, and new art. It was a no-brainer to sign up for this. Even now, ten years after joining I still play Eve Online regularly. It does have some issues though, and it's those issues, combined with a bit of old fashioned greed, that crippled Pathfinder Online.

Pathfinder Online is still very much a salvageable game property by the way, with the right focus.

One of the main reasons that I let my subscription to Eve Online lapse from time-to-time is because of two game play issues... First... where the game was focused on providing significantly more benefits for large groups such as corporations and alliances. Because of the combat and movement mechanics, a large corporation or alliance in Eve could control significant amounts of territory in Eve and could block individual players and small teams from gathering the resources necessary for growth. The largest alliance for example, the Goonswarm at one time fielded 50,000 active players.

This fail mechanic was built right into Pathfinder Online right from the very beginning, and put me off from subscribing.

The second main reason I let my subscription to Eve Online lapse was because of griefing. Everyone understands Eve Online is a brutal universe. Play against another individual or team that is better than you, and you die and lose your stuff. I get it. Outside of the high security Empire space is a no holds barred frontier where there are no rules at all, and you only get to hold soveriegnty, and keep your hard earned rewards if your team can consistently block any other team that shows up from destroying your ships, taking your space stations, and interfering with your efforts at resource gathering and building.

I'm ok with that. The problem was, that the alliances and corporations that were in control of nullsec went to highsec and interfered with the new players... Everything from can flipping, and war declarations, where a very experienced corporation would declare war on a new corporation and siege the new players for weeks or months to effectively block the new corporations ability to gather enough resources to meaningfully participate in the game.

The few were so effective at this in Eve Online, that of the 750,000 people that have signed up to play this game since I started in 2006, there are only about 60,000-75,000 remaining with only 35-40,000 regular players.

19 of 20 people that signed up to play Eve Online quit. Mostly because of the griefing.  

But CCP finally got it. In 2011 they introduced wormholes. Hard to reach hidden areas of space where small corporations and groups could effectively build bases of operations and grow their companies, or at least accumulate enough resources so that when they clashed with a much larger corporation or alliance they wouldn't be totally wiped out. Continuously losing is not a fun experience.

In the initial Pathfinder Online Demo there was no indication that the Pathfinder team grokked these simple truths, and they were busy building large guilds that would control territories in much the same manner as the large alliances in Eve Online. There was nothing in the demo that I saw that convinced me I would be successful in opening a small trading post or crafting shop in any Pathfinder Online territory.

There were also a couple of significant differences in marketing the game as well. I should have been on a mailing list and received regular updates concerning Pathfinder Online. The first year while they were busy doing the Kickstarter I rceived three of four major updates and was watching with significant interest.

After the Kickstarter, didn't even get a single email. No offers to playtest, or play online for a week or two to see how the game has been improved, just nothing... from Paizo or Pathfinder Online.

At CCP they never quit. Even after my subscription had lapsed they would send me regularly updates about every couple of months about what was going on in the Eve Universe, and several times a year they would offer free gameplay time. I never minded paying CCP online though, and don't spend my ingame earnings Plexing my account to play for free. They deserve to get paid for making and running one of the best games ever.

I wouldn't expect to play Pathfinder Online for free either. Last few years, they haven't let me know what is going on though, and no one there asked for my help either.

Quote from: Omega;853236Yes. It apparently did come out in some small release. I am pretty sure one of my players had a copy. But might be mixing it up with the un-related MMO.

re-found it. Rifts: Promise of Power for the N-Gage in 2005. What the heck is an N-Gage?

it was Nokia's phone/game system that came out a few years too early.

I worked on the Rifts game and I still have my copy of the goldmaster cart. It is a really good game just on the wrong system.

I am sorry for all the Pathfinder fans. I think PF suxxors, but I know people who were all excited to play the MMO and invested in the KS and this news is gonna crap their weekend.

Quote from: Orphan81;853172Fuck me, I'm just flat out wrong... but in my defense I'm suffering from some extreme insomina at the moment.

Holy shit! You've just admitted to being wrong...ON THE INTERNET!!! That's just not done! Get some sleep!