TheRPGSite

The OSR SJWs are going after moderate liberals now. Their increasing ferocity suggests they realize they're losing their grip.





[video=youtube_share;4WcFU0eet68]https://youtu.be/4WcFU0eet68[/youtube]

We're already seeing Hypernormalization, and the purity spiral getting out of hand.  I feel bad for the legit hardworking people that are keeping their head down, not getting targeted directly, but will still loose their jobs either through forced hiring processes, or the inevitable decline of companies that can't keep solvent by chasing away their actual customers.

Meatball, Claimer of Attention, Destroyer of Books. Look on her works, ye mighty, and despair! :D (I have no idea how to get coffee stains out of books, sorry, other than new books.)

Here's the Studio Ghibli reaction rolls idea -- https://falsemachine.blogspot.com/2020/05/soft-ass-d.html It sounds to me like it could be really fun, especially as a way to introduce alternate challenges (more puzzles, more questing). Courtesy vs. charisma is interesting too.

The catch-22 of the SJW movement is that, like you said, the more people they demonize the more enemies they make, yet they have to keep demonizing more and more people for more and more trivial reasons to constantly show that they are more enlightened and woke than others.  And in our circle we'll see them going after more and more innocuous games, finding/making up objectionable things to continually prove their credentials. It's not enough for a game to be apolitical, it has to actively push their agenda, at the expense of actual gameplay if necessary.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1140363Meatball, Claimer of Attention, Destroyer of Books. Look on her works, ye mighty, and despair! :D (I have no idea how to get coffee stains out of books, sorry, other than new books.)

Here's the Studio Ghibli reaction rolls idea -- https://falsemachine.blogspot.com/2020/05/soft-ass-d.html It sounds to me like it could be really fun, especially as a way to introduce alternate challenges (more puzzles, more questing). Courtesy vs. charisma is interesting too.

A fine addition to my collection.

Enjoyed the video.

My one-sentence summary: A vocal minority have continued to move the line on us, so now we have alt-right bears to worry about.

My God, eventually this has to critical mass and fall off the cliff.

One can never be woke enough.

Unfortunately for them I'll not turn down a good product even if the author murders trans-tiefling kittens for fun on live tv. If Hitler himself made a decent module (mein kampf is unreadable trash and not a module) I'd play that shit too, same for stalin or even satan. There is a certain sense of relevance that must apply for me, what an author does in their spare time is to me completely irrelevant. Putting woke pride parades in the gaming product would be relevant and a reason to boycott, putting promotion of real world racial superiority of some sort in the product would be relevant; the author saying stupid shit outside of that, or beating their wifes son, or donating money to whatever is simply not relevant. Putting an admonition in the product that i should support either hitler or stalin would be relevant.

I will not acknowledge as valid the notion that one should be able to cancel production of a product because of things not relevant to that product. Adults are expected to keep their personal beliefs separate from their professional duties, not demand the duties change to dovetail with the beliefs; (a cop might believe all trans people should be exterminated but is expected to treat them the same as any other person, to view it any other way demands thought policing) I expect a similar paradigm in producing gaming content; shit not directly relevant to the game or its products gets dismissed, "oh pundit once said a mean thing about gays we must no longer allow his products to be sold"...uh no, unless he said it IN the gaming product I don't care and you should be forced to buy his product to atone for the attempt at thought policing.

I hope this is all relevant and in line with the topic and doesn't cross the no-politics line.

The OSR is dying. And I mean that literally. Every year more founding OSR members are passing away or getting cancelled/disowned. They are being replaced by kids that think OSR just means "rules lite" or "dungeon crawling". People whose recommended OSR game is Dungeon World or Torchbearer.

If the OSR does outlive WotC, it will be unrecognizable.

The most recommended OSR games I'm seeing on other forums are OSE and Basic Fantasy. OSE in particular got recommended so much on reddit people started up threads asking why it was recommended so much since it was basically just stock B/X.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1140438Unfortunately for them I'll not turn down a good product even if the author murders trans-tiefling kittens for fun on live tv. If Hitler himself made a decent module (mein kampf is unreadable trash and not a module) I'd play that shit too, same for stalin or even satan. There is a certain sense of relevance that must apply for me, what an author does in their spare time is to me completely irrelevant. Putting woke pride parades in the gaming product would be relevant and a reason to boycott, putting promotion of real world racial superiority of some sort in the product would be relevant; the author saying stupid shit outside of that, or beating their wifes son, or donating money to whatever is simply not relevant. Putting an admonition in the product that i should support either hitler or stalin would be relevant.

I will not acknowledge as valid the notion that one should be able to cancel production of a product because of things not relevant to that product. Adults are expected to keep their personal beliefs separate from their professional duties, not demand the duties change to dovetail with the beliefs; (a cop might believe all trans people should be exterminated but is expected to treat them the same as any other person, to view it any other way demands thought policing) I expect a similar paradigm in producing gaming content; shit not directly relevant to the game or its products gets dismissed, "oh pundit once said a mean thing about gays we must no longer allow his products to be sold"...uh no, unless he said it IN the gaming product I don't care and you should be forced to buy his product to atone for the attempt at thought policing.

I hope this is all relevant and in line with the topic and doesn't cross the no-politics line.

Your view is refreshing, and closer to my own than most.

In an era where in many places I cannot see a thread go by complaining about the conservative sins of some publisher, or here where I cannot read a thread without hearing about the liberal sins of some publisher, it's nice to hear someone say they just don't care about the perceived sins of publishers and it comes down to the product itself.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140657Your view is refreshing, and closer to my own than most.

In an era where in many places I cannot see a thread go by complaining about the conservative sins of some publisher, or here where I cannot read a thread without hearing about the liberal sins of some publisher, it's not to hear someone say they just don't care about the perceived sins of publishers and it comes down to the product itself.

Even if I like the product I will no longer give money to a company that flips the bird to customers that are guilty of 'wrongthink'.  

Now if they have a 'neutral' public face, I don't necessarily care what they do or believe; as long as it doesn't 'bleed into' the product where it feels out of place/jarring.  If their alleged medieval fantasy game is actually post-modern commentary and Burger Kings Kids Klub one-of-everything-diversity where it doesn't make sense, I'm out.  Likewise, if its Sons of Jesus Bible studies Battles, hard pass.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1140665Even if I like the product I will no longer give money to a company that flips the bird to customers that are guilty of 'wrongthink'.

Yes. I know. That seems to be the prominent opinion around here. It's coming from the same place as liberals who are boycotting companies for what they perceive as wrongthing. It's just each side thinks different stuff is wrongthink. And I don't give a damn about what either side thinks is wrongthink.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1140650The OSR is dying. And I mean that literally. Every year more founding OSR members are passing away or getting cancelled/disowned. They are being replaced by kids that think OSR just means "rules lite" or "dungeon crawling". People whose recommended OSR game is Dungeon World or Torchbearer.

If the OSR does outlive WotC, it will be unrecognizable.

Then it's up to us to keep the torch lit for the next generation and go against the grain. I'm young and I know I'll do what I can.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140676Yes. I know. That seems to be the prominent opinion around here. It's coming from the same place as liberals who are boycotting companies for what they perceive as wrongthing. It's just each side thinks different stuff is wrongthink. And I don't give a damn about what either side thinks is wrongthink.

I agree. People who refuse to give their money to, associate with or promote those who treat them like shit and/or promote an antagonistic political agenda are 100% the same as those who go out of their to--not only disassociate with--but attempt to outright cancel and smear people or products that merely fail to conform with their political agenda (sometimes in a strictly superficial or entirely subjective way). These two things are 100% analogous and not in any conceivable way falsely equivalent.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1140683I agree. People who refuse to give their money to, associate with or promote those who treat them like shit and/or promote an antagonistic political agenda are 100% the same as those who go out of their to--not only disassociate with--but attempt to outright cancel and smear people or products that merely fail to conform with their political agenda (sometimes in a strictly superficial or entirely subjective way). These two things are 100% analogous and not in any conceivable way falsely equivalent.

Oh please. There is a lot of smearing and canceling people here who are perceived to be SJW in the RPG field. It's so routine it's like a sport around here. SJW is wrongthink around here, and any publisher which appears to embrace SJW thoughts are considered wrongthink which should be cancelled and smeared. Any writer or artist who is also a SJW is to be smeared and canceled too. And their products are "fired" and their companies are "fired" by those who are against SJWs.

It is the same place, it's just uncomfortable for you to face that fact.

Fuck all y'all for telling me what I should and should not buy based on anything other than whether the product itself is good or not for my tastes and needs. Fuck SJWs for telling me not to buy Vornheim because Zak is bad even though Vornheim is a helpful product for my games. Fuck you guys for telling me not to buy 5e because Jeremy Crawford is bad even though 5e is a good helpful product for my games.

Fuck you guys for your moralizing and orthodoxy while you pretend it's not moralizing and orthodoxy.  Sell me on the RPG product being good or bad, not the author or publisher and your personal ethical stances about them.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1140683I agree. People who refuse to give their money to, associate with or promote those who treat them like shit and/or promote an antagonistic political agenda are 100% the same as those who go out of their to--not only disassociate with--but attempt to outright cancel and smear people or products that merely fail to conform with their political agenda (sometimes in a strictly superficial or entirely subjective way). These two things are 100% analogous and not in any conceivable way falsely equivalent.

Wait a minute, you dont think they are the same at all!  o_O

Quote from: Shasarak;1140688Wait a minute, you dont think they are the same at all!  o_O

You guys are just arguing essentially about percentages. You think SJWs are x% worse at moralizing to others than you. As if that makes it "OK" that you're x%  better, even though you're still doing what they do just to a lesser degree. All of you are making the same "It's good to be intolerant of the intolerant" argument to justify your bad behavior.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140687Oh please. There is a lot of smearing and canceling people here who are perceived to be SJW in the RPG field. It's so routine it's like a sport around here. SJW is wrongthink around here, and any publisher which appears to embrace SJW thoughts are considered wrongthink which should be cancelled and smeared. Any writer or artist who is also a SJW is to be smeared and canceled too. And their products are "fired" and their companies are "fired" by those who are against SJWs.

It is the same place, it's just uncomfortable for you to face that fact.

Fuck all y'all for telling me what I should and should not buy based on anything other than whether the product itself is good or not for my tastes and needs. Fuck SJWs for telling me not to buy Vornheim because Zak is bad even though Vornheim is a helpful product for my games. Fuck you guys for telling me not to buy 5e because Jeremy Crawford is bad even though 5e is a good helpful product for my games.

Fuck you guys for your moralizing and orthodoxy while you pretend it's not moralizing and orthodoxy.  Sell me on the RPG product being good or bad, not the author or publisher and your personal ethical stances about them.

Like I was saying, I am in complete agreement. These two groups are obviously two sides of the exact same coin. When one group of people goes out of their way to promote their political agenda and involuntarily deputize the whole of society and all industries within it--and even imagine transgressions in various works of FICTION (such as RPG books) that aren't really there and persecute people for imaginary crimes--and then another group says "STOP!" and refuses to budge an inch without ever pushing their own politics, but merely opposing those insistent on ramming their politics down everyone else's throats and refusing to support them or their allies who enable them. Those two groups are obviously the same thing and operating under the exact same motivations and moralizing framework. And there is no distinction between them whatsoever.

One side is equally as guilty as the other and they're both trying to boycott and cancel, and force things on others in equal measure without distinction between the two. Fuck both these identical sides for equally moralizing and equally telling us not to buy RPG books for the exact same reasons!

Quote from: Shasarak;1140688Wait a minute, you dont think they are the same at all!  o_O

I have no clue what you’re talking about. I’m being completely ingenuous here, just like Mistwell!

Yes to all of that, Mistwell and VisionStorm.

The thing I'll give to rpgsite, though, is that while you might be insulted and attacked, you won't be moderated or banned for wrongthink. An important distinction, I'd say.

Let's leave aside the question of motivation and look exclusively at action. There are four actions:

1) Deciding not to buy a product;
2) Deciding not to buy a product and recommending others also not buy it;
3) Deciding not to buy a product and attempting to prevent others from being able to buy a product; and
4) Deciding not to buy a product and attempting to punish those who do buy it or enjoy it.

These are different actions. They do not have the same consequences for you, others, or the product maker.

If one wants to argue that the four actions are morally identical, then one must have a moral framework that says that action and consequences are irrelevant. That seems to be what Mistwell is arguing: only intent (moralizing) matters and hence right-wingers who do #1 and SJWs who do #4 are morally identical. I won't argue with Mistwell on that, he is entitled to whatever moral philosophy he espouses and he lays it out well.

I will say that I, personally, consider the nature of an action and its consequences to be morally relevant. Therefore I draw a sharp distinction between each category. I frequently engage in #1 on the basis of personal grudges, e.g. I don't give money to people who hate me. But I try not to do #2 even against people who hate me; I only offer public critique on the merits of the product itself ("this is a bad product" not "this product was made by a bad person"). I try never to do #3 or #4 at all.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140687Fuck all y'all for telling me what I should and should not buy based on anything other than whether the product itself is good or not for my tastes and needs.

Nobody is telling you what to buy or play. Have fun choking down as much WotC/Paizo/Chaosium/etc bullshit as you can.

The discussion has been for people who are sick of the woke garbage to consider other options.

If you're happy with woke garbage, enjoy! There's a cornucopia of woke nonsense offered by publishers big and small for those who want that in their purchases.

And nobody here is cancelling the woke fucks. This isn't even about boycotts. It's about shifting personal economics and attention.

It's simply discussing the concept of "Hey, good RPG products are being made by people who don't hate us. Let's give them our money, time and energy instead."

Quote from: Mistwell;1140687Oh please. There is a lot of smearing and canceling people here who are perceived to be SJW in the RPG field. It's so routine it's like a sport around here. SJW is wrongthink around here, and any publisher which appears to embrace SJW thoughts are considered wrongthink which should be cancelled and smeared. Any writer or artist who is also a SJW is to be smeared and canceled too. And their products are "fired" and their companies are "fired" by those who are against SJWs.

It is the same place, it's just uncomfortable for you to face that fact.

Fuck all y'all for telling me what I should and should not buy based on anything other than whether the product itself is good or not for my tastes and needs. Fuck SJWs for telling me not to buy Vornheim because Zak is bad even though Vornheim is a helpful product for my games. Fuck you guys for telling me not to buy 5e because Jeremy Crawford is bad even though 5e is a good helpful product for my games.

Fuck you guys for your moralizing and orthodoxy while you pretend it's not moralizing and orthodoxy.  Sell me on the RPG product being good or bad, not the author or publisher and your personal ethical stances about them.

Nobody here is telling you to do anything. Your whining about how rpgsite is just like the SJWs! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx5Rh-bkW9I) gets funnier everytime I see it, because you're obviously just pissed off and blindly flailing, hoping to score a point.

It's not the same behavior. I can't discuss ACKs products on SJW rpg sites without a ban, but I can discuss and promote WoTC products here. Also I've seen props given here to a couple RPG authors who may be considered 'left', but decide to keep all politics out of their products and discussion groups. For the typical SJW if you're apolitical then you're just another right winger.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140676Yes. I know. That seems to be the prominent opinion around here. It's coming from the same place as liberals who are boycotting companies for what they perceive as wrongthing. It's just each side thinks different stuff is wrongthink. And I don't give a damn about what either side thinks is wrongthink.

You missed half the quote; had I not been around here more than a couple days, I'd have assumed you only read the first paragraph, rather than think you were making a (poor) strawman to make a point.  Refresher below.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1140665Even if I like the product I will no longer give money to a company that flips the bird to customers that are guilty of 'wrongthink'.  

Now if they have a 'neutral' public face, I don't necessarily care what they do or believe; as long as it doesn't 'bleed into' the product where it feels out of place/jarring.  If their alleged medieval fantasy game is actually post-modern commentary and Burger Kings Kids Klub one-of-everything-diversity where it doesn't make sense, I'm out.  Likewise, if its Sons of Jesus Bible studies Battles, hard pass.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140687
Fuck all y'all for your personal ethical stances about them.

Fuck you in particular for deliberately cherry-picking and misrepresenting what people ARE saying.

Quote from: amacris;1140732Let's leave aside the question of motivation and look exclusively at action. There are four actions:

1) Deciding not to buy a product;
2) Deciding not to buy a product and recommending others also not buy it;
3) Deciding not to buy a product and attempting to prevent others from being able to buy a product; and
4) Deciding not to buy a product and attempting to punish those who do buy it or enjoy it.

These are different actions. They do not have the same consequences for you, others, or the product maker.

If one wants to argue that the four actions are morally identical, then one must have a moral framework that says that action and consequences are irrelevant. That seems to be what Mistwell is arguing: only intent (moralizing) matters and hence right-wingers who do #1 and SJWs who do #4 are morally identical. I won't argue with Mistwell on that, he is entitled to whatever moral philosophy he espouses and he lays it out well.

I will say that I, personally, consider the nature of an action and its consequences to be morally relevant. Therefore I draw a sharp distinction between each category. I frequently engage in #1 on the basis of personal grudges, e.g. I don't give money to people who hate me. But I try not to do #2 even against people who hate me; I only offer public critique on the merits of the product itself ("this is a bad product" not "this product was made by a bad person"). I try never to do #3 or #4 at all.

This is good, but I'm pretty sure that this is one of the few forums where you can do action 1a)

1a) Deciding not to buy a product and explaining to those interested in reading it, why you made that decision;

Quote from: amacris;1140732Let's leave aside the question of motivation and look exclusively at action. There are four actions:

1) Deciding not to buy a product;
2) Deciding not to buy a product and recommending others also not buy it;
3) Deciding not to buy a product and attempting to prevent others from being able to buy a product; and
4) Deciding not to buy a product and attempting to punish those who do buy it or enjoy it.

These are different actions. They do not have the same consequences for you, others, or the product maker.

If one wants to argue that the four actions are morally identical, then one must have a moral framework that says that action and consequences are irrelevant. That seems to be what Mistwell is arguing: only intent (moralizing) matters and hence right-wingers who do #1 and SJWs who do #4 are morally identical. I won't argue with Mistwell on that, he is entitled to whatever moral philosophy he espouses and he lays it out well.

I will say that I, personally, consider the nature of an action and its consequences to be morally relevant. Therefore I draw a sharp distinction between each category. I frequently engage in #1 on the basis of personal grudges, e.g. I don't give money to people who hate me. But I try not to do #2 even against people who hate me; I only offer public critique on the merits of the product itself ("this is a bad product" not "this product was made by a bad person"). I try never to do #3 or #4 at all.

Very well said. This is by and large my position also.
I am less charitable and think Mistwell's position comes across as wrongheaded at best, cynical Alinskyite tactics ("Always hold them to their own standards") at worst.

I will confess to buying 2e's 25th anniversary edition of house of strahd soley for the map of castle ravenloft.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1140768I will confess to buying 2e's 25th anniversary edition of house of strahd soley for the map of castle ravenloft.

Oh! Public confessional!

I confess that I recently ordered POD of the Premium Reprints of the 1e PHB, MM, and DMG, as I lost my originals in one of my two broke-as-hell games purges a couple of decades ago.

Quote from: Slipshot762;1140438Unfortunately for them I'll not turn down a good product even if the author murders trans-tiefling kittens for fun on live tv. If Hitler himself made a decent module (mein kampf is unreadable trash and not a module) I'd play that shit too, same for stalin or even satan. There is a certain sense of relevance that must apply for me, what an author does in their spare time is to me completely irrelevant. Putting woke pride parades in the gaming product would be relevant and a reason to boycott, putting promotion of real world racial superiority of some sort in the product would be relevant; the author saying stupid shit outside of that, or beating their wifes son, or donating money to whatever is simply not relevant. Putting an admonition in the product that i should support either hitler or stalin would be relevant.

I will not acknowledge as valid the notion that one should be able to cancel production of a product because of things not relevant to that product. Adults are expected to keep their personal beliefs separate from their professional duties, not demand the duties change to dovetail with the beliefs; (a cop might believe all trans people should be exterminated but is expected to treat them the same as any other person, to view it any other way demands thought policing) I expect a similar paradigm in producing gaming content; shit not directly relevant to the game or its products gets dismissed, "oh pundit once said a mean thing about gays we must no longer allow his products to be sold"...uh no, unless he said it IN the gaming product I don't care and you should be forced to buy his product to atone for the attempt at thought policing.

I hope this is all relevant and in line with the topic and doesn't cross the no-politics line.

I would ideally like this to be my stance as well, but unfortunately I couldn't live up to it.  I really wanted the Maze of the Blue Medusa, for example, but didn't buy it for a long time because I didn't like the idea of putting money in Zak S's pocket.  I just recently did get it by telling myself that I was putting money in the pocket of Patrick Stuart.  I really don't like the idea of giving my money to someone who is repugnant to me, even if the product that person produced is a good one.

I am having this same problem right now with Shadow of the Demon Lord.  I have been searching for a new fantasy RPG and was in the process of settling on Shadow of the Demon Lord, went to Schwalb Entertainment's website and saw his post of the receipt for his donation to the bail project.  The game may be great, but I can't stomach the idea of giving him more money to donate to BLM.  Besides which, I find posting the receipts of your donations on your website to be a disgusting display of self aggrandizement and virtue signaling.  I make donations now and then to causes I find worthy, but I don't feel the need to trumpet them to the world.

However, I do stop at the point of cancelling or censoring someone.  While I may not personally want to buy a game made by someone I have problems with, I absolutely don't want that person's games to be taken off the shelves or off Drivethrurpg.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1140739Nobody is telling you what to buy or play.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1140742Nobody here is telling you to do anything.

Quote from: 1989;1139491Nobody should be buying anything from WotC anymore, and nobody should be playing 5e anymore, either.

Not like it will make a difference, but it's the principle.

Like SpinachCat has preached many times, here: people need to get a backbone and stop supporting it. Spend your dollars elsewhere, with publishers who are not bowing down to politics.

LOL Spinachcat was even his inspiration for that message and he credits him in the post!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1140739And nobody here is cancelling the woke fucks. This isn't even about boycotts. It's about shifting personal economics and attention.

Oh did you miss the list being composed of sufficiently most to least woke companies being used to essentially blacklist those too woke for people to be buying? Funny enough, 1989 started that list too. But others gleefully jumped in.

This is how this shit starts. Always with good intentions. It's already becoming difficult around here to question the predominant orthodoxy, and half the responses to those who question it have become personal attacks. Some who questioned the orthodoxy opted to leave here, making this place more of an echo chamber in the process. I can't blame them, as I am feeling it too as my every post is given a spin of the least charitable version with no benefit of the doubt and frequent attacks about my character and intelligence (and while that is one theme of the board, it's never been this level before). Do you really not see where that path is headed?

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815LOL Spinachcat was even his inspiration for that message and he credits him in the post!



Oh did you miss the list being composed of sufficiently most to least woke companies being used to essentially blacklist those too woke for people to be buying? Funny enough, 1989 started that list too. But others gleefully jumped in.

This is how this shit starts. Always with good intentions. It's already becoming difficult around here to question the predominant orthodoxy, and half the responses to those who question it have become personal attacks. Some who questioned the orthodoxy opted to leave here, making this place more of an echo chamber in the process. I can't blame them, as I am feeling it too as my every post is given a spin of the least charitable version with no benefit of the doubt and frequent attacks about my character and intelligence (and while that is one theme of the board, it's never been this level before). Do you really not see where that path is headed?

Pray tell, how is that "Black list" gonna impact those publishers?

By letting people know that said publisher is woke, people are going to do what? Burn their building? Dox them and go to their house in a mob? Get them fired? Publish articles in all the lamestream media about how their product is a pipeline to the alt-right? Ban their shit from DTRPG, conventions and hound the payment processors so they can't make a living selling their shit?

Nope, that's shit your fellow travelers do, we're just gonna make an informed decision on whether we buy or not their shit. And plenty here have said they will if the product is "good", so not even a real boycott.

What it is is a BUYCOTT, as in go buy from non-woke publishers (or at least publishers that don't inject their politics into their products/forums.

And this is your real issue, you know damn well that it will work, that people will buy products with ZERO IRL politics over the opposite, and YOU don't want us to make it easy for anyone to make such informed decision.

Quote from: S'mon;1140764Very well said. This is by and large my position also.
I am less charitable and think Mistwell's position comes across as wrongheaded at best, cynical Alinskyite tactics ("Always hold them to their own standards") at worst.

That's exactly what he is doing. You can bet your RPG collection that he doesn't dare try his Both-sides-ism on Big Purple. They'd Popper Paradox him and ban him in 5 seconds.

Quote from: Aglondir;1140830That's exactly what he is doing. You can bet your RPG collection that he doesn't dare try his Both-sides-ism on Big Purple. They'd Popper Paradox him and ban him in 5 seconds.

He couldn't even if he wanted too... as wacky as we think Mistwell is, he's already been permabanned at TBP for not being woke enough for them. Think on that a moment... Mistwell is not as woke as the people pushing this stuff into RPGs.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815LOL Spinachcat was even his inspiration for that message and he credits him in the post!



Oh did you miss the list being composed of sufficiently most to least woke companies being used to essentially blacklist those too woke for people to be buying? Funny enough, 1989 started that list too. But others gleefully jumped in.

This is how this shit starts. Always with good intentions. It's already becoming difficult around here to question the predominant orthodoxy, and half the responses to those who question it have become personal attacks. Some who questioned the orthodoxy opted to leave here, making this place more of an echo chamber in the process. I can't blame them, as I am feeling it too as my every post is given a spin of the least charitable version with no benefit of the doubt and frequent attacks about my character and intelligence (and while that is one theme of the board, it's never been this level before). Do you really not see where that path is headed?

It's already been pointed out to you that we're talking about boycotting, not cancelling. WOTC can put out whatever garbage they like, and we can boycott them all we like. You don't have to agree. You don't have to participate. But equating our opinions with cancel culture is laughable.

I don't give your posts any charity because they're stupid and easily refutable, as I just did. As many have done over and over.

Let me know when anyone here calls for a "woke" RPG product to get pulled from DTRPG, and the idea gets serious traction with the rest of the posters. Until something comparable happens, you're comparing oranges to apples and failing miserably at it.

Quote from: Chris24601;1140837He couldn't even if he wanted too... as wacky as we think Mistwell is, he's already been permabanned at TBP for not being woke enough for them. Think on that a moment... Mistwell is not as woke as the people pushing this stuff into RPGs.

Mistwell banned at TBP? Seems I have made an incorrect assumption. My apologies for that, Mistwell. I do applaud your efforts to "question orthodoxy," as that spirit of inquiry should always be welcome in a free society. However, on this particular issue I don't see Wokist cancel culture and the "buycott" as equivalent.

Quote from: Chris24601;1140837He couldn't even if he wanted too... as wacky as we think Mistwell is, he's already been permabanned at TBP for not being woke enough for them. Think on that a moment... Mistwell is not as woke as the people pushing this stuff into RPGs.

Mistwell is a moderate even by EN World standards! I guess on RPGnet he was an Alt-Reich Schitlard!

Quote from: S'mon;1140846Mistwell is a moderate even by EN World standards! I guess on RPGnet he was an Alt-Reich Schitlard!

Ha, EN World standards!  Good one.

Considering Mistwell, it's hard to be a dissenting voice anywhere, even on a free speech RPG forum. So, though I disagree with you on many points (or perhaps because I disagree with you), Mistwell, I appreciate having you around.

It's true the level of acrimonious prose has recently risen here, but... people are tense, because the world around them (around us) seems to hurl itself into craziness : Covid-19, unemployment, riots, pseudo-religious fanatics (i.e a good many SJWs)... Things are not looking good.

About buycott - yeah, it seems a good idea to me. Most businesses will only change their woke virtue signaling if it costs them money. It's just that it's easier for them to bow to the moral panic than fight it, and it seems to cost them less sales... though I think  that, in the RPG business, it's an erroneous perception,  and that it will save their asses in the very short term, but it will ruin them in the long run.

Greetings!

Hmmm. How is it that people expressing the view of "Hey! This company are woke, SJW morons. Company A is not SJW, and you should support them,"--oppressing anyone here?

That is just discussing how politics influences companies and the marketplace.

No one is being oppressed or persecuted.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The best thing about boycotting buying RPG products at the moment is not having to pay the eye watering shipping charges.

No wonder China is eating your lunch.

Quote from: SHARK;1141032Greetings!

Hmmm. How is it that people expressing the view of "Hey! This company are woke, SJW morons. Company A is not SJW, and you should support them,"--oppressing anyone here?

That is just discussing how politics influences companies and the marketplace.

No one is being oppressed or persecuted.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I agree, no one here is oppressing anyone - although there's definitely backlash for dissenting views from the default right-libertarian machismo.

Where I agree with Mistwell is that I think there are people on either side who are equally entrenched:

"Safe Spacers": Everything that is deemed offensive by anyone should be changed or cancelled, and anyone who disagrees is perpetuating racism, etc.
"From My Cold, Dead Hands": Nothing should be changed whatsoever, and any kind of disclaimers are offensive, therefore I'm boycotting WotC.

I personally don't think WotC needs to change the game as it is, and find the idea of taking down or editing old products to be absurd. But I also recognize that things change, a measly disclaimer and a few re-wordings aren't going to stop me from buying WotC products. If they go overboard, maybe.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815Oh did you miss the list being composed of sufficiently most to least woke companies being used to essentially blacklist those too woke for people to be buying?

Oh fuck you, dude.

How the fuck is anyone here trying to "blacklist" a company or a developer/creative?

Nobody here is trying to "cancel" anyone.

The cancel culture brigade actively works to get people fired from their jobs, and actively works to put companies/individuals out of business.

That's a night and fucking day difference from people here advocating not buying a product, advocating not supporting a company/individual, or advocating spending your money with an alternative company/individual.

You're such a disingenuous piece of shit.

Are you' so mentally damaged, that you can't tell the difference between "don't support them" and "burn them to the ground and end their participation in this hobby" ?!

I do not see many people ever attack mistwell for his views.  He gets attacked or pushback for his tone.  He seems fine with starting a good deal of his disagreements with disparaging remarks and insult.  He seems a bit sensitive as to getting it tossed back at him.  I can not I have seen him do this every time, and I can not say he has not been unduly insulted.  I can say he seems to always start out every time in combat mode of discussion instead of putting forth his position.   My thoughts are he is likely a natural contrarian who gets a dopamine hit from struggle/conflict and posts for sport, not to troll, but enjoys a tussle.  I could be wrong.

   That said, if a company tells me they do not want me as part of their customer base, I have a hard time accepting the charge that I am blacklisting anyone.  Seems they told me they do not serve my kind there.

Quote from: kythri;1141087Oh fuck you, dude.

How the fuck is anyone here trying to "blacklist" a company or a developer/creative?

Nobody here is trying to "cancel" anyone.

The cancel culture brigade actively works to get people fired from their jobs, and actively works to put companies/individuals out of business.

That's a night and fucking day difference from people here advocating not buying a product, advocating not supporting a company/individual, or advocating spending your money with an alternative company/individual.

You're such a disingenuous piece of shit.

Are you' so mentally damaged, that you can't tell the difference between "don't support them" and "burn them to the ground and end their participation in this hobby" ?!

This fucking moron tried cancelling me in the past... Didn't go so well did it? :rolleyes:
Source:https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40735-New-Horizon-Development-Coming-Q1-2020/page2

Quote from: kythri;1141087Read his other two threads in this review forum, read his responses to reviews on DTRPG, and look for "Knights & Legends" threads on RPGgeek. This guy is a whackadoo. He's evasive, hyper-defensive, hyper-paranoid, and he grossly exaggerates any positive claim he makes. Hell, you've seen his responses in this thread already, yeah?

Also, he apparently can't answer most people, unless he validates your "credentials" or some such nonsense.

How is that trying to cancel you, idiot?

Being critical of your shitty atittude, or your shitty heartbreaker with it's shitty storytelling, or your shitty voice acting of your shitty script for your shitty video commercial for said shitty heartbreaker isn't trying to cancel you, slugger.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141086I agree, no one here is oppressing anyone - although there's definitely backlash for dissenting views from the default right-libertarian machismo.

Where I agree with Mistwell is that I think there are people on either side who are equally entrenched:

"Safe Spacers": Everything that is deemed offensive by anyone should be changed or cancelled, and anyone who disagrees is perpetuating racism, etc.
"From My Cold, Dead Hands": Nothing should be changed whatsoever, and any kind of disclaimers are offensive, therefore I'm boycotting WotC.

I personally don't think WotC needs to change the game as it is, and find the idea of taking down or editing old products to be absurd. But I also recognize that things change, a measly disclaimer and a few re-wordings aren't going to stop me from buying WotC products. If they go overboard, maybe.

This isn't an issue of "Left" vs "Right" (whatever those terms even mean anymore), but of Fact vs Falsehood--not even "fiction" (which can be positive or neutral), but outright LIES.

They're trying to promote the notion that the 80s and 90s were somehow this bigoted era were rampant prejudice existed everywhere that we have somehow "evolved" past from as a society. When in reality the 80s and specially the 90s where some of most open and tolerant eras in the entire span of human history--more tolerant than things are now, with all this Social "Justice" BS setting us back--where some of the greatest strides in achieving tolerance for even homosexuals where made. Yet these people want to sell us on the bullshit notion that those were bigoted times, and that material from that era engaged in the use of "prejudiced" terminology that we all agree as a society is "offensive" because our moral censors have declared them to be so.

That is what those disclaimers that they're adding to these books imply, and they're there to help perpetuate a lie. They aren't just "changes with the times" cuz we've "evolved" as a society or whatnot and now recognize that these works are "bigoted" (somehow). They're there to declare these works and the era on which they were made bigoted to help promote the narrative that our moral censors have set us on the right path.

And I don't go along with falsities. And I also don't support people who side with moral censors trying to rewrite history to their benefit, which is why I think holding WotC accountable is justified. They don't just have a passive role in this, they are helping perpetuate an outright lie for political ends.

Quote from: kythri;1141100How is that trying to cancel you, idiot?

Being critical of your shitty atittude, or your shitty heartbreaker with it's shitty storytelling, or your shitty voice acting of your shitty script for your shitty video commercial for said shitty heartbreaker isn't trying to cancel you, slugger.

"Heartbreaker" Will someone fetch the definition of a heartbreaker in TRPGs? I'm pretty sure none of my games were heartbreakers. Some people have a real hard time dealing with the truth. A non-woke startup told SJWs to go fuck themselves, played them like a fiddle, and became a 4digit $$$ best seller in under a year. Sounds like a success story to me.

I'm kinda surprised tabletop RPGing has lasted this long.

I would be very surprised if the OSR exists in 20 years, except for the rare table of us old bastards.

But then again, I don't expect the USA to exist in recognizable state in 10 years.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1141102This isn't an issue of "Left" vs "Right" (whatever those terms even mean anymore), but of Fact vs Falsehood--not even "fiction" (which can be positive or neutral), but outright LIES.

They're trying to promote the notion that the 80s and 90s were somehow this bigoted era were rampant prejudice existed everywhere that we have somehow "evolved" past from as a society. When in reality the 80s and specially the 90s where some of most open and tolerant eras in the entire span of human history--more tolerant than things are now, with all this Social "Justice" BS setting us back--where some of the greatest strides in achieving tolerance for even homosexuals where made. Yet these people want to sell us on the bullshit notion that those were bigoted times, and that material from that era engaged in the use of "prejudiced" terminology that we all agree as a society is "offensive" because our moral censors have declared them to be so.

That is what those disclaimers that they're adding to these books imply, and they're there to help perpetuate a lie. They aren't just "changes with the times" cuz we've "evolved" as a society or whatnot and now recognize that these works are "bigoted" (somehow). They're there to declare these works and the era on which they were made bigoted to help promote the narrative that our moral censors have set us on the right path.

And I don't go along with falsities. And I also don't support people who side with moral censors trying to rewrite history to their benefit, which is why I think holding WotC accountable is justified. They don't just have a passive role in this, they are helping perpetuate an outright lie for political ends.

None of which I significantly disagree with. I just think there are different ways to hold WotC accountable, and I personally am not at the point where I won't buy one of their products.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141086I agree, no one here is oppressing anyone - although there's definitely backlash for dissenting views from the default right-libertarian machismo.

Where I agree with Mistwell is that I think there are people on either side who are equally entrenched:

"Safe Spacers": Everything that is deemed offensive by anyone should be changed or cancelled, and anyone who disagrees is perpetuating racism, etc.
"From My Cold, Dead Hands": Nothing should be changed whatsoever, and any kind of disclaimers are offensive, therefore I'm boycotting WotC.

I personally don't think WotC needs to change the game as it is, and find the idea of taking down or editing old products to be absurd. But I also recognize that things change, a measly disclaimer and a few re-wordings aren't going to stop me from buying WotC products. If they go overboard, maybe.

Greetings!

Hello, my friend! "Safe Spacers!" Geesus that made me laugh!:D I also like "From my cold, dead hands!" You're damn straight on that! *laughs* I can't help but think of guns, the NRA, and our beloved 2nd Amendment. I'm definitely into guns. I have a revered collection of Guns & Ammo magazine.:D

Yeah, oppressing someone? I'm not seeing it. You think there's a backlash from the default right-libertarian machismo?

*Machismo*:D Love that too, Mercurius!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1141120Greetings!

Hello, my friend! "Safe Spacers!" Geesus that made me laugh!:D I also like "From my cold, dead hands!" You're damn straight on that! *laughs* I can't help but think of guns, the NRA, and our beloved 2nd Amendment. I'm definitely into guns. I have a revered collection of Guns & Ammo magazine.:D

Yeah, oppressing someone? I'm not seeing it. You think there's a backlash from the default right-libertarian machismo?

*Machismo*:D Love that too, Mercurius!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What I mean about backlash is that this site, like all online communities, has its own ideological "center of gravity" and that folks that diverge too much from it get whipped into shape, so to speak. Hey, its honest and free-wheeling, which is refreshing compared to some other rpg communities.

As for safe spacers, I was thinking of creating an rpg setting called Wokaria that involved safe spaces of purple light in which all differences were eradicated.

As for guns, I'm a left-libertarian who is probably going to buy a hand-gun. 'Tis the times.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141138What I mean about backlash is that this site, like all online communities, has its own ideological "center of gravity" and that folks that diverge too much from it get whipped into shape, so to speak.

The centre of gravity varies over time - Pundit used to have a bunch of left-wing Moderators who loved Cancelling any right-wing speaker who strayed off the reservation. It's much more relaxed now, and I'd agree the centre of gravity is right-libertarian. But right-libertarians don't Cancel people, except for cancelling the occasional Nazi. They may spew invective but they actually will defend their opponent's right to speak - even while vehemently wishing that opponent would STFU & FO. :D

Mistwell, apparently I was wrong. You are correct 1989 said nobody should play 5e nor support 5e. I must have missed that post and I disagree with 1989's sentiment.

Anyone who is happy with increasing amounts of woke bullshit in their gaming material, or just content with WotC shitting on D&D's past, its authors and its founders and declaring them all hateful racists, should play and buy as much 5e as they enjoy. If they are happy with what D&D has become, they should support WotC as much as they like.

Everyone else however is a different story.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815Oh did you miss the list being composed of sufficiently most to least woke companies being used to essentially blacklist those too woke for people to be buying?

It's a good list and I hope it grows.

I totally support gamers buying games from publishers who don't hate them.

But where is this blacklist?  

I don't support boycotts. I support buying things consciously and making a conscious choice where your money is going. As I've said many times, it's not about boycotting WotC/Paizo/Chaosium/etc. It's about buying from small publishers who are aligned with your values. Or not. That's everyone's choice.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815It's already becoming difficult around here to question the predominant orthodoxy, and half the responses to those who question it have become personal attacks.

Then go enjoy the always welcoming inclusiveness of RPG.net instead. If you're looking for a leftist safe space, you've got a dozen forums to choose from that would love your presence and permaban the rest of us.

theRPGsite is a free speech mosh pit. You know damn well you're welcome to say whatever you want here in a manner that doesn't exist elsewhere on the web. And you know damn well that plenty of us shit all over anyone who tries to deny free speech to any member, regardless how much SJW kool-aid they've consumed.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815Do you really not see where that path is headed?

I do. That's why I started a whole thread about where this path is headed (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42174-It-s-time-for-the-USA-to-balkanize-How-can-that-happen-peacefully) in Pundy's forum. It's 40 pages now.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1141160Mistwell, apparently I was wrong. You are correct 1989 said nobody should play 5e nor support 5e. I must have missed that post and I disagree with 1989's sentiment.

Anyone who is happy with increasing amounts of woke bullshit in their gaming material, or just content with WotC shitting on D&D's past, its authors and its founders and declaring them all hateful racists, should play and buy as much 5e as they enjoy. If they are happy with what D&D has become, they should support WotC as much as they like.

Everyone else however is a different story.

Considering the context, the calls for boycott have so far been in reply to people who agree that they're unhappy with WOTC wokeness affecting their business decisions.

And they've led to good discussion about the effectiveness of boycotts, and how anyone who feels that way can direct their purchases towards products they like.

I feel that's a pretty important distinction.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1141241Considering the context, the calls for boycott have so far been in reply to people who agree that they're unhappy with WOTC wokeness affecting their business decisions.

And they've led to good discussion about the effectiveness of boycotts, and how anyone who feels that way can direct their purchases towards products they like.

I feel that's a pretty important distinction.

  One thing that may be indicative: I don't think any of the critics of WotC's recent direction here have jumped on Twitter's #FireMikeMearls bandwagon.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141138What I mean about backlash is that this site, like all online communities, has its own ideological "center of gravity" and that folks that diverge too much from it get whipped into shape, so to speak. Hey, its honest and free-wheeling, which is refreshing compared to some other rpg communities.

As for safe spacers, I was thinking of creating an rpg setting called Wokaria that involved safe spaces of purple light in which all differences were eradicated.

As for guns, I'm a left-libertarian who is probably going to buy a hand-gun. 'Tis the times.

Greetings!

Yeah, I agree. There's a center of gravity for sure! I like that our site here is honest and free wheeling!

You are going to arm up, my friend? In Pundits forum, I have a thread you will enjoy, about guns and stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1141251One thing that may be indicative: I don't think any of the critics of WotC's recent direction here have jumped on Twitter's #FireMikeMearls bandwagon.

Not even after him "firing" us all from the hobby. I might be laughing my ass off on the sweet, sweet, schadenfreude of the hyenas turning on him but I'm not gonna move a finger in either direction, not to ask for his cancellation nor to defend him.

Of course OSR will outlast WotC. Any competent professional has the funds to make an OSR book as a hobby. DriveThruRPG POD set ups means good books can sell long after the author is dead and it would take a lot of wild factors before these little money making machines get shut down (something like severe economic collapse, because even if DriveThruRPG goes bankrupt, the assets will get sold off to make money, People would literally have to stop buying books en-mass and the internet would have to collapse before all the good OSR books on that site become unavailable).

I'm pretty sure Stars Without Number is something like the most sold product on DriveThruRPG so it's not like OSR is even niche.

OSR is also the best "system" to make money in the ttRPG hobby. You don't spend tons of time theorycrafting a system and therefore have more time for good writing, art, and layout to shine through. Since all the stuff is broadly compatible, enthusiast are encouraged to buy games they will never use.

Much of all of this translates so well, that I imagine OSR will outlast capitalism. In theorized reputation economies, small independent game efforts that are broadly compatible would still be highly valued.

Quote from: S'mon;1141152The centre of gravity varies over time - Pundit used to have a bunch of left-wing Moderators who loved Cancelling any right-wing speaker who strayed off the reservation. It's much more relaxed now, and I'd agree the centre of gravity is right-libertarian. But right-libertarians don't Cancel people, except for cancelling the occasional Nazi. They may spew invective but they actually will defend their opponent's right to speak - even while vehemently wishing that opponent would STFU & FO. :D

Thanks for the background - I signed up a few years ago but have only started postly recently. But I agree re: right-libertarians. Some of my leftie friends get annoyed at my tolerance for right-libertarians, which in my mind goes against their so-called liberalism. I'd consider myself a "free speech absolutist," which is probably the biggest different I have with fellow lefties.

Quote from: SHARK;1141252Greetings!

Yeah, I agree. There's a center of gravity for sure! I like that our site here is honest and free wheeling!

You are going to arm up, my friend? In Pundits forum, I have a thread you will enjoy, about guns and stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Probably not for awhile--I'm moving back to the east coast from Hawaii and shipping my car, so am pretty broke. But I feel with these times it would be a wise thing to do. If and when I do so, I'll make sure to look for the thread and ask advice.

I've been growing suspicious of "right-libertarians" because freedom of association can be used to exclude protected classes from your business. Which is just a way to re-legalize racism.

Racists sure do like hiding among regular people. Some people here are concerned that OSR will stop being OSR because all of the "old guard" will eventually die out. Hmmmmmm. I wonder what set of beliefs is actually dying out? It's certainly not good GMing practices.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141458I've been growing suspicious of "right-libertarians" because freedom of association can be used to exclude protected classes from your business. Which is just a way to re-legalize racism.

Racists sure do like hiding among regular people. Some people here are concerned that OSR will stop being OSR because all of the "old guard" will eventually die out. Hmmmmmm. I wonder what set of beliefs is actually dying out? It's certainly not good GMing practices.

Yeah, because the "progressives" aren't already discriminating...

Oh wait, it's not against "protected classes",

Yep, it's like all the bestest like GMs evah are like Millenials?!

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141458I've been growing suspicious of "right-libertarians" because freedom of association can be used to exclude protected classes from your business. Which is just a way to re-legalize racism.

Why would you want to patronize a business that's owned by racists?

QuoteRacists sure do like hiding among regular people. Some people here are concerned that OSR will stop being OSR because all of the "old guard" will eventually die out. Hmmmmmm. I wonder what set of beliefs is actually dying out? It's certainly not good GMing practices.

Curses! You found me out!

(https://png.pngitem.com/pimgs/s/71-717040_snidely-whiplash-hd-png-download.png)

Foiled again!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1141477Why would you want to patronize a business that's owned by racists?



Curses! You found me out!

(https://png.pngitem.com/pimgs/s/71-717040_snidely-whiplash-hd-png-download.png)

Foiled again!

Greetings!

*laughing* I'm curious, Ratman, who are all of these racists? Furthermore, who all is being "excluded"?

I'm very exclusive in my home games. No SJW's, no whining jackasses, no fucking nutjobs. *shrugs* I usually vet people as family, known friends, or at least new friends that I really get along well with, and the same kind of gamers recommended by my already family and friends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1141481Greetings!

*laughing* I'm curious, Ratman, who are all of these racists? Furthermore, who all is being "excluded"?

I'm very exclusive in my home games. No SJW's, no whining jackasses, no fucking nutjobs. *shrugs* I usually vet people as family, known friends, or at least new friends that I really get along well with, and the same kind of gamers recommended by my already family and friends.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It's easy to chuck out accusastions of racism to try and shut people up. I'm glad the tactic gets mocked for the stupidity that it is.

I could go all "I game with a black dude", because I do. I game with all kinds of people. They'e all Good Joes, and that's all I care about.
But the tactic wants to make you apologize and prove your anti-racism, and make you grovel for acceptance, and I don't care to do that. So fuck 'em. I don't care if some asshole thinks I'm a racist.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141458I've been growing suspicious of "right-libertarians"...

Yeah, that would be because you're one of the bad guys! :p

Quote from: S'mon;1141488Yeah, that would be because you're one of the bad guys! :p

Most of those who responded to me are already on my "ignored racists" lists. It's comforting to see how right it was. It's amazing how hard some racists people work to create all this coded language to mingle in with regular people. It's funny though because now-a-days you automatically know any COVID19-denier is also racist. They are two unrelated topics so no coded language has been invented yet, but it is basically a 100% correlation between those opinions and conscious racism. Perhaps one only comes to the conclusion that "the plague is a hoax" with the same mental handicaps required to be racist.

I don't think the racists in the OSR community will drag it down. OSR is too big with too many players for all but the most racist woke people to consider OSR as a block of people who agree about everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141506Most of those who responded to me are already on my "ignored racists" lists. v=Ev373c7wSRg[/url]

Oh noes. I might get put on Rhedyn's "ignored racists" list. I'll never be happy again.

All this talk about racists makes me want to find a way to get Drow into my campaign somehow.

Hopefully my party will capture one to keep with their Red Dragon.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141458Racists sure do like hiding among regular people. Some people here are concerned that OSR will stop being OSR because all of the "old guard" will eventually die out. Hmmmmmm. I wonder what set of beliefs is actually dying out? It's certainly not good GMing practices.

The fact that you assume that anyone who supports the original OSR is racist, tells me everything I need to know. Even my post about OSR members dying off gave specific reasons why I think it's bad that have absolutely nothing to do with the race in any way.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141506Most of those who responded to me are already on my "ignored racists" lists. It's comforting to see how right it was. It's amazing how hard some racists people work to create all this coded language to mingle in with regular people. It's funny though because now-a-days you automatically know any COVID19-denier is also racist. They are two unrelated topics so no coded language has been invented yet, but it is basically a 100% correlation between those opinions and conscious racism. Perhaps one only comes to the conclusion that "the plague is a hoax" with the same mental handicaps required to be racist.

I don't think the racists in the OSR community will drag it down. OSR is too big with too many players for all but the most racist woke people to consider OSR as a block of people who agree about everything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg

Greetings!

Rhedyn, it is "comforting to see how right it was"--about what? People responding to you saying what, exactly? Who are these racists you keep talking about? What "coded" language are you talking about?

In addition, there's "100% correlation between Covid-10 deniers is also racist." What the hell? Correlation from where? With whom?

It could be interesting to create a Covid-like disease that Drow Elves can spread to others. That would make the Drow-Elves even more fun! People that think there is something wrong with Drow-Elves and such--deeming such races as "racist" are weak-minded morons that have been brainwashed by Marxists.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak;1141516All this talk about racists makes me want to find a way to get Drow into my campaign somehow.

Hopefully my party will capture one to keep with their Red Dragon.

  Drow, seem very racist.  Their whole society seems to be the very definition of what a racist society would look like.  And red dragons....they are so racist they even hate one another.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141517The fact that you assume that anyone who supports the original OSR is racist, tells me everything I need to know. Even my post about OSR members dying off gave specific reasons why I think it's bad that have absolutely nothing to do with the race in any way.

Greetings!

Hello, Hedgehobbit! What is so wrong with the "Old Guard" of the OSR and gaming in general? Rhedyn believes that the "Old Guard" of gaming are racists?

Where the hell does he get that idea? That sounds like total nonsense to me. Why would Rhedyn want to believe that?

I think that the "Old Guard" preserves a lot of knowledge and wisdom in running games, the game lore, and good attitudes towards keeping the game base strong, and not diluted or corrupted by Forge-isms, or the current racist hysteria.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1141511Oh noes. I might get put on Rhedyn's "ignored racists" list. I'll never be happy again.

Greetings!

Ratman! I checked the last two pages of the thread--is there some context that I'm missing? What is Rhedyn talking about? Does he think you and GeekyBugle are racists? That's fucking funny.

Has Rhedyn been having some weird argument with himself?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I think this is veering dangerously off-topic, so I'll just say that the OSR will definitely outlive the SJWs, and hopefully WotC too, cuz WotC SUCKS! :p

I would advise perhaps editing ones comments to discuss the Drow and their Red dragons, as IMO these two are decent examples of racism and privilege.  Well I guess the whole having to live underground thing can be taken as a set back.   But OSR wise, these were two sterling examples of racist creatures I think.

Quote from: SHARK;1141524Greetings!

Ratman! I checked the last two pages of the thread--is there some context that I'm missing? What is Rhedyn talking about? Does he think you and GeekyBugle are racists? That's fucking funny.

Has Rhedyn been having some weird argument with himself?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You quoted the post I was responding to.

Greetings!

Drow Elves are Drow-Supremacists. What's so "problematic" about that? The Drow-Elves are Ink-Black in colour, with red or purple eyes, and silver or white hair. That description has never been a problem for anyone I have gamed with. Drow-Elves are a race of evil, sadistic, subterranean-dwelling villains. Yes, they hate everyone. It makes them an interesting race and culture. All of my players love to hate the Drow! *laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1141522Greetings!

Hello, Hedgehobbit! What is so wrong with the "Old Guard" of the OSR and gaming in general? Rhedyn believes that the "Old Guard" of gaming are racists?

Where the hell does he get that idea? That sounds like total nonsense to me. Why would Rhedyn want to believe that?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Because I don't believe that. Part of secret racist mental judo is to defend against arguments no one made.

Nothing is wrong with the "Old Guard" and old school ideas/good GMing tactics aren't dying out. Racist people are dying out. So if someone is concerned that "OSR" won't be recognizable in the future and effectively "die out", I have to wonder what sort of things they are really going to miss.

And to put it clearly, I suspect anyone actually worried about the future of OSR, are just worried that the racists people won't be around to make content for it not that good OSR content stops getting made.

OSR is great. The woke people can't cancel it nor are they going to "ruin" it (people don't buy crap, so crap can't take over). I do suspect that consciously racist people will disappear and find it harder and harder to find anything that confirms to their view point.

If someone is wondering why an unrelated point has been interpreted as them being racists its because racists aren't kind enough to inform you of their racism and we all know full well that actual racists assholes post here. Am I 100% certain everyone I've ignored or called racists is a racists? No, but I'm not calling your employer to get you fired either or causing any other real harm. The stakes aren't high.

Quote from: oggsmash;1141521Drow, seem very racist.  Their whole society seems to be the very definition of what a racist society would look like.  And red dragons....they are so racist they even hate one another.

I am going to make my Drow into Virus deniers so that they can be even more racist.

Quote from: Shasarak;1141532I am going to make my Drow into Virus deniers so that they can be even more racist.

    Given their great material wealth, and access to fantastic health care, their obvious dedication to staying trim (no one wants to be the drow not invited to orgy night)  I am certain their denial of a virus is for certain racist.  Like a far reaching racist plot to have the virus afflict  the most vulnerable why they go on and on about not knowing anyone who has died from what ever the virus is.   Or maybe we could just keep them as murdering demon worshipers who would likely try to conspire with the Mind Flayers to put out the sun if the Mind Flayers were not so damned.....racist.

   But there is something pretty awesome about where they were introduced (the G1-3 series I think) and the modules after, the D series and the Q1.   I have those 1st edition modules on pdf, and reading them gives me goosebumps; which is of course a heavy dose of dopamine nostalgia.    I even adapted the G series for GURPs.  I have the 5th edition version too, but it strikes me odd that they did not adapt the D series and the Q1 modules to 5th edition.    Talk about a dungeon series you could get killed in....  I also thought it had a great deal of flexibility built in for the DM to do as he wished in many parts (heh maybe too much in D1 and D2.

I've been hearing something about a anti-censorship bill signed in May that could potentially take the fun away from the SJWs and make them functional members of society. This could potentially mean the cancel culture will be over soon.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141531If someone is wondering why an unrelated point has been interpreted as them being racists its because racists aren't kind enough to inform you of their racism and we all know full well that actual racists assholes post here. Am I 100% certain everyone I've ignored or called racists is a racists? No, but I'm not calling your employer to get you fired either or causing any other real harm. The stakes aren't high.

Are you one of those secret racists? Is this some kind of weird code you use to find other racists to connect with on the internet?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141531Because I don't believe that. Part of secret racist mental judo is to defend against arguments no one made.

Nothing is wrong with the "Old Guard" and old school ideas/good GMing tactics aren't dying out. Racist people are dying out. So if someone is concerned that "OSR" won't be recognizable in the future and effectively "die out", I have to wonder what sort of things they are really going to miss.

And to put it clearly, I suspect anyone actually worried about the future of OSR, are just worried that the racists people won't be around to make content for it not that good OSR content stops getting made.

OSR is great. The woke people can't cancel it nor are they going to "ruin" it (people don't buy crap, so crap can't take over). I do suspect that consciously racist people will disappear and find it harder and harder to find anything that confirms to their view point.

If someone is wondering why an unrelated point has been interpreted as them being racists its because racists aren't kind enough to inform you of their racism and we all know full well that actual racists assholes post here. Am I 100% certain everyone I've ignored or called racists is a racists? No, but I'm not calling your employer to get you fired either or causing any other real harm. The stakes aren't high.

You failed your roll for sanity, you're now foaming at the mouth crazy, and as such an NPC. As the GM I'm gonna have you suck my Mayan dick.

I Agree Drow are Drow Supremacists, they're also Misandrists their culture oppresses all the males preventing them from ever gaining any status/power. By the rules of the intersectional cult this means all Male Drow have the right to hate their oppressors, say anything about them, even stuff that would be deemed proff of sexism and they can't be sexists because sexism is Power + Prejudice.

We need a module where the male Drow revolt against their oppressors, put them all into camps where they can be taken out like books from a library.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1140650The OSR is dying. And I mean that literally. Every year more founding OSR members are passing away or getting cancelled/disowned. They are being replaced by kids that think OSR just means "rules lite" or "dungeon crawling". People whose recommended OSR game is Dungeon World or Torchbearer.

If the OSR does outlive WotC, it will be unrecognizable.

I'm not sure who you mean. Do you mean the originators of the RPG hobby? Because sure, they're dying out slowly. But the OSR guys? I mean, other than Zak and Bledsaw Jr, who died or was successfully 'canceled'?

Quote from: SHARK;1141522Rhedyn believes that the "Old Guard" of gaming are racists?

Where the hell does he get that idea? That sounds like total nonsense to me. Why would Rhedyn want to believe that?

The Nazis made up libels about Jews. The Bolsheviks made up libels about Kulaks. Evil is very predictable - and repetitive.

Rhedyn would've been right at home in Salem, circa 1600 or so.

Yeah, I went there. Suck it down.

The 'Old Guard' of RPGs were anything BUT racists. Once again, rampant and half-assed attempt at rewriting history. The 'Old Guard' were the outcasts. The misfits. The peeps who just didn't fit in.

Forget being judged by 'the color of our skin', we were judged by the things we liked and didn't like.

Sexist? Yeah, some of us were socially inept. But we'd have crawled on broken glass for a girl to -talk- to us and not treat us like something she scraped off her shoe.

Pathetic attempt at rewriting history by Rhedyn, 2/10 would not recommend.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141570Rhedyn would've been right at home in Salem, circa 1600 or so.

Yeah, I went there. Suck it down.

The 'Old Guard' of RPGs were anything BUT racists. Once again, rampant and half-assed attempt at rewriting history. The 'Old Guard' were the outcasts. The misfits. The peeps who just didn't fit in.

Forget being judged by 'the color of our skin', we were judged by the things we liked and didn't like.

Sexist? Yeah, some of us were socially inept. But we'd have crawled on broken glass for a girl to -talk- to us and not treat us like something she scraped off her shoe.

Pathetic attempt at rewriting history by Rhedyn, 2/10 would not recommend.

Kind of like how one bad experience at a gaming table is the equivalent of being a victim of "gatekeeping". Not three or even two bad experiences just one so it's a plot to keep that particular person out of the hobby. Or maybe just maybe the first group one played with were a bunch of jerks and assholes. Same way they encounter one racist gamer and that means each and everyone is hardcore racist the equivalent of Hitler.

Don't feed or give attention to the Trolls. Rhedyn like many SJWs have crafted carefully constructed personal narratives and anything and everything that goes against said narrative is to be summarily ignored.

Quote from: S'mon;1141562The Nazis made up libels about Jews. The Bolsheviks made up libels about Kulaks. Evil is very predictable - and repetitive.

Agreed and seconded. Remember kids nothing can go against the almighty power of the Narrative!. No matter how hard anyone or everyone tells an SJW they might be wrong they are always right and we are nasty terrible racists.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141506Most of those who responded to me are already on my "ignored racists" lists. It's comforting to see how right it was. It's amazing how hard some racists people work to create all this coded language to mingle in with regular people.

Have you blocked yourself yet? You're the one who sees a violent ugly stupid fantasy monster and thinks "black person."

You're so racist you don't even think you're racist; you think assigning people into groups based on purely cosmetic features that you label as "disadvantaged" (i.e. inferior and in need of special help) makes you better than those who just see people as people (some of whom are in circumstances where they need a genuine hand up), but you're too far gone to see how racist you are.

You thinking Orc = Black Person tells everyone just what you think of black people; you're these guys...

[video=youtube;Ev373c7wSRg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg&app=desktop&persist_app=1[/youtube]

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141506It's amazing how hard some racists people work to create all this coded language to mingle in with regular people. It's funny though because now-a-days you automatically know any COVID19-denier is also racist. They are two unrelated topics so no coded language has been invented yet, but it is basically a 100% correlation between those opinions and conscious racism. Perhaps one only comes to the conclusion that "the plague is a hoax" with the same mental handicaps required to be racist.

The last guy I know who claimed that someone was using "coded language" because they were a racist, was calling a black liberal Hillary Clinton voter a racist because he used triple parenthesis for emphasis. Not the best day for rational thought with that man. Please, for your own sake, pull your head out of your ass because a lot of people here are just laughing at you now.

Quote from: Chris24601;1141576Have you blocked yourself yet? You're the one who sees a violent ugly stupid fantasy monster and thinks "black person."

You're so racist you don't even think you're racist; you think assigning people into groups based on purely cosmetic features that you label as "disadvantaged" (i.e. inferior and in need of special help) makes you better than those who just see people as people (some of whom are in circumstances where they need a genuine hand up), but you're too far gone to see how racist you are.

You thinking Orc = Black Person tells everyone just what you think of black people; you're these guys...

[video=youtube;Ev373c7wSRg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg&app=desktop&persist_app=1[/youtube]

I've said nothing about orcs?

Let me know how that fight with the strawman goes.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1141570Rhedyn would've been right at home in Salem, circa 1600 or so.

Yeah, I went there. Suck it down.

The 'Old Guard' of RPGs were anything BUT racists. Once again, rampant and half-assed attempt at rewriting history. The 'Old Guard' were the outcasts. The misfits. The peeps who just didn't fit in.

Forget being judged by 'the color of our skin', we were judged by the things we liked and didn't like.

Sexist? Yeah, some of us were socially inept. But we'd have crawled on broken glass for a girl to -talk- to us and not treat us like something she scraped off her shoe.

Pathetic attempt at rewriting history by Rhedyn, 2/10 would not recommend.

1. Yes it is a witch hunt. I can't argue with that.

2. I never said anything bad about "the old guard". I said racist people were dieing out and that was fine. Either you lack reading comprehension or you like arguing against strawmen.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141592I've said nothing about orcs?

Let me know how that fight with the strawman goes.

Quote from: Rhedyn;11415931. Yes it is a witch hunt. I can't argue with that.

2. I never said anything bad about "the old guard". I said racist people were dieing out and that was fine. Either you lack reading comprehension or you like arguing against strawmen.

>Comes in making incongruous blanket accusations about RaCiSm that are irrelevant to the discussion
>Arguments and snipes at its incoherent ramblings are somehow StRaWmEn

Either you're an escaped mental patient or you're a bridge dwelling troll.

Quote from: Rhedyn;11415931. Yes it is a witch hunt. I can't argue with that.

2. I never said anything bad about "the old guard". I said racist people were dieing out and that was fine. Either you lack reading comprehension or you like arguing against strawmen.

1. And like with ALL witch hunts you'll find exactly zero witches but will kill thousands of innocent people...

And you are okay with this, because, for religious zealots the end always justifies the means.

2. I'll just let ou argue with your self from a few pages back:

Quote from: Rhedyn;1141458I've been growing suspicious of "right-libertarians" because freedom of association can be used to exclude protected classes from your business. Which is just a way to re-legalize racism.

Racists sure do like hiding among regular people. Some people here are concerned that OSR will stop being OSR because all of the "old guard" will eventually die out. Hmmmmmm. I wonder what set of beliefs is actually dying out? It's certainly not good GMing practices.

Yeah, you totally weren't implying that the "Old Guard" was full of racists, that they were dying out and that this was a good thing...

Celebrating the death of people because in your addled brain they somehow are racists, probably because they don't agree with your cult's dogma that we should judge people based on immutable characteristic or give privileges based on said immutable characteristics.

I need to take notes and seriously analyze your behavior and patterns of speech to write better cultists for my games.

Everybody else: Roll for sanity less the troll manages to lower your IQ to room temperature by killing your brain cells with his sheer stupidity.

Quote from: SHARK;1141519In addition, there's "100% correlation between Covid-10 deniers is also racist." What the hell? Correlation from where? With whom?

Get with the program Shark!!!

The correlation is "Everything I don't like is waaaaaaaaycist!!!!"

It totally makes sense once you accept that days of the week don't end in -y anymore.

What is frightening is how Rheydn and the gaming buddy I banned from Facebook is how very much alike their behaviour is.

- Absolutely no critical thinking about anything and everything. Pretty much "who is racist just point me to the whom ever  it is" . No attempt to check and see if the person is truly racist. Just give them an approved racist list and off they go.

-Even worse morning actually thinking of any kind. Either agree with their position or your (insert word)ist, Misogynistic etc.

- Eithee one must approve and agree with them 10000% or they casually start tossing out ad homin personal attacks and insults. The friend who I banned got angry because I posted a video about how the new actress cast for Bateman was simply a diversity hire so that the producers could check off a box on the list. He b list his shit on Facebook. What do you call it when the main character in comics is white, the first actress is white and the replacement is a POC. Don't piss on my leg then tell me it's not raining.

-Lack the courage to insult a person directly, issue blanket insults and ad homein attacks. Try to hide behind general blanket statements thinking they are somehow smart (guess what your not) thinking no one will notice. Then try to claim no insult or attack was intended because no one was named directly. Again nice try unlike yourself we actually engage in the art of thinking and not being mindless sheep.

-while getting angry, offended and triggered when they get called out on their bullshit bad behaviour. While adamantly refusing to admit 2+2=5 dammit! As because they drank the look-aid and so afraid of not being part of the SJW herd and banned from their approved websites that they rather toss away any and all self-respect along with all personal freedoms and liberties.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1141517The fact that you assume that anyone who supports the original OSR is racist, tells me everything I need to know. Even my post about OSR members dying off gave specific reasons why I think it's bad that have absolutely nothing to do with the race in any way.

The best DM's I know are all pre 3.x DM's