How is that trying to cancel you, idiot?

Being critical of your shitty atittude, or your shitty heartbreaker with it's shitty storytelling, or your shitty voice acting of your shitty script for your shitty video commercial for said shitty heartbreaker isn't trying to cancel you, slugger.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141086I agree, no one here is oppressing anyone - although there's definitely backlash for dissenting views from the default right-libertarian machismo.

Where I agree with Mistwell is that I think there are people on either side who are equally entrenched:

"Safe Spacers": Everything that is deemed offensive by anyone should be changed or cancelled, and anyone who disagrees is perpetuating racism, etc.
"From My Cold, Dead Hands": Nothing should be changed whatsoever, and any kind of disclaimers are offensive, therefore I'm boycotting WotC.

I personally don't think WotC needs to change the game as it is, and find the idea of taking down or editing old products to be absurd. But I also recognize that things change, a measly disclaimer and a few re-wordings aren't going to stop me from buying WotC products. If they go overboard, maybe.

This isn't an issue of "Left" vs "Right" (whatever those terms even mean anymore), but of Fact vs Falsehood--not even "fiction" (which can be positive or neutral), but outright LIES.

They're trying to promote the notion that the 80s and 90s were somehow this bigoted era were rampant prejudice existed everywhere that we have somehow "evolved" past from as a society. When in reality the 80s and specially the 90s where some of most open and tolerant eras in the entire span of human history--more tolerant than things are now, with all this Social "Justice" BS setting us back--where some of the greatest strides in achieving tolerance for even homosexuals where made. Yet these people want to sell us on the bullshit notion that those were bigoted times, and that material from that era engaged in the use of "prejudiced" terminology that we all agree as a society is "offensive" because our moral censors have declared them to be so.

That is what those disclaimers that they're adding to these books imply, and they're there to help perpetuate a lie. They aren't just "changes with the times" cuz we've "evolved" as a society or whatnot and now recognize that these works are "bigoted" (somehow). They're there to declare these works and the era on which they were made bigoted to help promote the narrative that our moral censors have set us on the right path.

And I don't go along with falsities. And I also don't support people who side with moral censors trying to rewrite history to their benefit, which is why I think holding WotC accountable is justified. They don't just have a passive role in this, they are helping perpetuate an outright lie for political ends.

Quote from: kythri;1141100How is that trying to cancel you, idiot?

Being critical of your shitty atittude, or your shitty heartbreaker with it's shitty storytelling, or your shitty voice acting of your shitty script for your shitty video commercial for said shitty heartbreaker isn't trying to cancel you, slugger.

"Heartbreaker" Will someone fetch the definition of a heartbreaker in TRPGs? I'm pretty sure none of my games were heartbreakers. Some people have a real hard time dealing with the truth. A non-woke startup told SJWs to go fuck themselves, played them like a fiddle, and became a 4digit $$$ best seller in under a year. Sounds like a success story to me.

I'm kinda surprised tabletop RPGing has lasted this long.

I would be very surprised if the OSR exists in 20 years, except for the rare table of us old bastards.

But then again, I don't expect the USA to exist in recognizable state in 10 years.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1141102This isn't an issue of "Left" vs "Right" (whatever those terms even mean anymore), but of Fact vs Falsehood--not even "fiction" (which can be positive or neutral), but outright LIES.

They're trying to promote the notion that the 80s and 90s were somehow this bigoted era were rampant prejudice existed everywhere that we have somehow "evolved" past from as a society. When in reality the 80s and specially the 90s where some of most open and tolerant eras in the entire span of human history--more tolerant than things are now, with all this Social "Justice" BS setting us back--where some of the greatest strides in achieving tolerance for even homosexuals where made. Yet these people want to sell us on the bullshit notion that those were bigoted times, and that material from that era engaged in the use of "prejudiced" terminology that we all agree as a society is "offensive" because our moral censors have declared them to be so.

That is what those disclaimers that they're adding to these books imply, and they're there to help perpetuate a lie. They aren't just "changes with the times" cuz we've "evolved" as a society or whatnot and now recognize that these works are "bigoted" (somehow). They're there to declare these works and the era on which they were made bigoted to help promote the narrative that our moral censors have set us on the right path.

And I don't go along with falsities. And I also don't support people who side with moral censors trying to rewrite history to their benefit, which is why I think holding WotC accountable is justified. They don't just have a passive role in this, they are helping perpetuate an outright lie for political ends.

None of which I significantly disagree with. I just think there are different ways to hold WotC accountable, and I personally am not at the point where I won't buy one of their products.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141086I agree, no one here is oppressing anyone - although there's definitely backlash for dissenting views from the default right-libertarian machismo.

Where I agree with Mistwell is that I think there are people on either side who are equally entrenched:

"Safe Spacers": Everything that is deemed offensive by anyone should be changed or cancelled, and anyone who disagrees is perpetuating racism, etc.
"From My Cold, Dead Hands": Nothing should be changed whatsoever, and any kind of disclaimers are offensive, therefore I'm boycotting WotC.

I personally don't think WotC needs to change the game as it is, and find the idea of taking down or editing old products to be absurd. But I also recognize that things change, a measly disclaimer and a few re-wordings aren't going to stop me from buying WotC products. If they go overboard, maybe.

Greetings!

Hello, my friend! "Safe Spacers!" Geesus that made me laugh!:D I also like "From my cold, dead hands!" You're damn straight on that! *laughs* I can't help but think of guns, the NRA, and our beloved 2nd Amendment. I'm definitely into guns. I have a revered collection of Guns & Ammo magazine.

Yeah, oppressing someone? I'm not seeing it. You think there's a backlash from the default right-libertarian machismo?

*Machismo* Love that too, Mercurius!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1141120Greetings!

Hello, my friend! "Safe Spacers!" Geesus that made me laugh!:D I also like "From my cold, dead hands!" You're damn straight on that! *laughs* I can't help but think of guns, the NRA, and our beloved 2nd Amendment. I'm definitely into guns. I have a revered collection of Guns & Ammo magazine.

Yeah, oppressing someone? I'm not seeing it. You think there's a backlash from the default right-libertarian machismo?

*Machismo* Love that too, Mercurius!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What I mean about backlash is that this site, like all online communities, has its own ideological "center of gravity" and that folks that diverge too much from it get whipped into shape, so to speak. Hey, its honest and free-wheeling, which is refreshing compared to some other rpg communities.

As for safe spacers, I was thinking of creating an rpg setting called Wokaria that involved safe spaces of purple light in which all differences were eradicated.

As for guns, I'm a left-libertarian who is probably going to buy a hand-gun. 'Tis the times.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141138What I mean about backlash is that this site, like all online communities, has its own ideological "center of gravity" and that folks that diverge too much from it get whipped into shape, so to speak.

The centre of gravity varies over time - Pundit used to have a bunch of left-wing Moderators who loved Cancelling any right-wing speaker who strayed off the reservation. It's much more relaxed now, and I'd agree the centre of gravity is right-libertarian. But right-libertarians don't Cancel people, except for cancelling the occasional Nazi. They may spew invective but they actually will defend their opponent's right to speak - even while vehemently wishing that opponent would STFU & FO.

Mistwell, apparently I was wrong. You are correct 1989 said nobody should play 5e nor support 5e. I must have missed that post and I disagree with 1989's sentiment.

Anyone who is happy with increasing amounts of woke bullshit in their gaming material, or just content with WotC shitting on D&D's past, its authors and its founders and declaring them all hateful racists, should play and buy as much 5e as they enjoy. If they are happy with what D&D has become, they should support WotC as much as they like.

Everyone else however is a different story.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815Oh did you miss the list being composed of sufficiently most to least woke companies being used to essentially blacklist those too woke for people to be buying?

It's a good list and I hope it grows.

I totally support gamers buying games from publishers who don't hate them.

But where is this blacklist?  

I don't support boycotts. I support buying things consciously and making a conscious choice where your money is going. As I've said many times, it's not about boycotting WotC/Paizo/Chaosium/etc. It's about buying from small publishers who are aligned with your values. Or not. That's everyone's choice.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815It's already becoming difficult around here to question the predominant orthodoxy, and half the responses to those who question it have become personal attacks.

Then go enjoy the always welcoming inclusiveness of RPG.net instead. If you're looking for a leftist safe space, you've got a dozen forums to choose from that would love your presence and permaban the rest of us.

theRPGsite is a free speech mosh pit. You know damn well you're welcome to say whatever you want here in a manner that doesn't exist elsewhere on the web. And you know damn well that plenty of us shit all over anyone who tries to deny free speech to any member, regardless how much SJW kool-aid they've consumed.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140815Do you really not see where that path is headed?

I do. That's why I started a whole thread about where this path is headed in Pundy's forum. It's 40 pages now.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1141160Mistwell, apparently I was wrong. You are correct 1989 said nobody should play 5e nor support 5e. I must have missed that post and I disagree with 1989's sentiment.

Anyone who is happy with increasing amounts of woke bullshit in their gaming material, or just content with WotC shitting on D&D's past, its authors and its founders and declaring them all hateful racists, should play and buy as much 5e as they enjoy. If they are happy with what D&D has become, they should support WotC as much as they like.

Everyone else however is a different story.

Considering the context, the calls for boycott have so far been in reply to people who agree that they're unhappy with WOTC wokeness affecting their business decisions.

And they've led to good discussion about the effectiveness of boycotts, and how anyone who feels that way can direct their purchases towards products they like.

I feel that's a pretty important distinction.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1141241Considering the context, the calls for boycott have so far been in reply to people who agree that they're unhappy with WOTC wokeness affecting their business decisions.

And they've led to good discussion about the effectiveness of boycotts, and how anyone who feels that way can direct their purchases towards products they like.

I feel that's a pretty important distinction.

  One thing that may be indicative: I don't think any of the critics of WotC's recent direction here have jumped on Twitter's #FireMikeMearls bandwagon.

Quote from: Mercurius;1141138What I mean about backlash is that this site, like all online communities, has its own ideological "center of gravity" and that folks that diverge too much from it get whipped into shape, so to speak. Hey, its honest and free-wheeling, which is refreshing compared to some other rpg communities.

As for safe spacers, I was thinking of creating an rpg setting called Wokaria that involved safe spaces of purple light in which all differences were eradicated.

As for guns, I'm a left-libertarian who is probably going to buy a hand-gun. 'Tis the times.

Greetings!

Yeah, I agree. There's a center of gravity for sure! I like that our site here is honest and free wheeling!

You are going to arm up, my friend? In Pundits forum, I have a thread you will enjoy, about guns and stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1141251One thing that may be indicative: I don't think any of the critics of WotC's recent direction here have jumped on Twitter's #FireMikeMearls bandwagon.

Not even after him "firing" us all from the hobby. I might be laughing my ass off on the sweet, sweet, schadenfreude of the hyenas turning on him but I'm not gonna move a finger in either direction, not to ask for his cancellation nor to defend him.

Of course OSR will outlast WotC. Any competent professional has the funds to make an OSR book as a hobby. DriveThruRPG POD set ups means good books can sell long after the author is dead and it would take a lot of wild factors before these little money making machines get shut down (something like severe economic collapse, because even if DriveThruRPG goes bankrupt, the assets will get sold off to make money, People would literally have to stop buying books en-mass and the internet would have to collapse before all the good OSR books on that site become unavailable).

I'm pretty sure Stars Without Number is something like the most sold product on DriveThruRPG so it's not like OSR is even niche.

OSR is also the best "system" to make money in the ttRPG hobby. You don't spend tons of time theorycrafting a system and therefore have more time for good writing, art, and layout to shine through. Since all the stuff is broadly compatible, enthusiast are encouraged to buy games they will never use.

Much of all of this translates so well, that I imagine OSR will outlast capitalism. In theorized reputation economies, small independent game efforts that are broadly compatible would still be highly valued.

Quote from: S'mon;1141152The centre of gravity varies over time - Pundit used to have a bunch of left-wing Moderators who loved Cancelling any right-wing speaker who strayed off the reservation. It's much more relaxed now, and I'd agree the centre of gravity is right-libertarian. But right-libertarians don't Cancel people, except for cancelling the occasional Nazi. They may spew invective but they actually will defend their opponent's right to speak - even while vehemently wishing that opponent would STFU & FO.

Thanks for the background - I signed up a few years ago but have only started postly recently. But I agree re: right-libertarians. Some of my leftie friends get annoyed at my tolerance for right-libertarians, which in my mind goes against their so-called liberalism. I'd consider myself a "free speech absolutist," which is probably the biggest different I have with fellow lefties.

Quote from: SHARK;1141252Greetings!

Yeah, I agree. There's a center of gravity for sure! I like that our site here is honest and free wheeling!

You are going to arm up, my friend? In Pundits forum, I have a thread you will enjoy, about guns and stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Probably not for awhile--I'm moving back to the east coast from Hawaii and shipping my car, so am pretty broke. But I feel with these times it would be a wise thing to do. If and when I do so, I'll make sure to look for the thread and ask advice.