I prefer roll to cast as well both as a way to add tension to magic in game but also as a simple replacement for spell slots and/or magic point record keeping.   I wouldn't personally want to use it in conjunction with them though.

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 22, 2025, 07:46:45 PMDude: where is the setting and over-arching concept of ShadowdarK? What is the game-world? How is it different from every abstract TTRPG that has come out in recent decades? What makes it different besides a torch mechanic and a few old-school rules variations, like roll-to-cast?

Seriously? Where is the beef? This game hasn't done a damn thing. Now maybe someone will come up with something great to go along with the rule set, and that will be great --I will fully support

but right now, this is a black-and-white min0book produced by some chick, and it isn't anything impressive

and like I said, it is a perfectly good system, but it is nothing outstanding and impressive. If it were written by a guy, it would have made 10k and vanished within a couple months

Yeah cuz there are no successful kickstarters by dudes. Lol get a load of this incel.

Quote from: jhkim on April 21, 2025, 03:07:10 PM

Quote from: Valatar on April 21, 2025, 02:12:12 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 21, 2025, 08:11:17 AMI don't think so. It might for a millisecond, but its sales are nowhere near what Pathfinder 1e was in its heyday.

Despite my hatred of it, Pathfinder 2 is doing reasonably well.  Here are the stats from the Foundry VTT team at the end of last year:



Can they maintain it?  No idea.  I certainly believe it's nowhere as ubiquitous as PF1 had been at its height; 5e took a lot of the market share back from them.  I'd expect the numbers to be at least reversed from back when PF1 was outselling 4e, so this represents a big drop from their height.

Yeah. I think sales over several years are important, and I'm not sure how well Kickstarter represents the enduring market for a given game. From the last few years, here are the TTRPG Kickstarter or Backerkit campaigns for standalone games (non-5E) that got two million or more:

(2024) $14.6M : Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere RPG
(2021) $9.5M : Avatar Legends: The Roleplaying Game
(2023) $4.6M : MCDM RPG: Draw Steel
(2019) $3.4M : Zombicide 2nd edition
(2024) $2.9M : Terry Pratchett's Discworld RPG
(2024) $2.2M : DC20
(2022) $2.1M : Old Gods of Appalachia Roleplaying Game
(2023) $2.0M : The Magnus Archives Roleplaying Game
(2021) $2.0M : THE ONE RING RPG, 2nd edition

The big question is how well these translate into continuing play and sales.

I think that list is your answer. Virtually all of the above made a huge bank, and then just vanished. No one talks about them or plays them, mostly.

Quote from: estar on April 22, 2025, 08:21:30 PMA minor correction to the video, the Creative Commons Attribution license doesn't require the person to share their work. There are two important requirements: attribution and the second is only relevant if the author decides to open up their work under a license.

This wasn't true of the OGL, which states that all open content used and anything based on it still had to be shared as open content under the same terms.

To highlight the difference. You can use the D&D 5e 5.1 SRD (the previous version) under the OGL or under the CC-BY license. If you make a RPG based on that and used the OGL version then you would have to make all the stuff based on the SRD open content under the OGL. If you used the CC-BY version you don't and all you have to do is include the attribution.

In contrast the folks at Atlas Games released the entire Ars Magica 5e product line under CC-BY-SA. The Creative Commons Attribution Share-alike. So if you make anything based on that content you have to share the text of your entire work under the same license.

Which would allow Atlas Games to use your content, except they would be required to share anything they created with your content under the same terms.

The main issue with using Creative Common is that it meant to license an entire book at once. Unlike the OGL, ORC, AELF it doesn't distinguish open context from content still under copyright. Which for works that is 100% original to the author not really an issue. But if you were trying to adapted the Ars Magica system to a licensed IP like Game of Thrones, Middle Earth, then that wouldn't happen because the IP holder would be required to put their content under the share-alike license as well.

But it not a problem with CC-BY licensed content like the D&D 5e SRD as you are not required to share the result with others.

Yes, I misspoke. I was talking about the license on D&D beyond or whatever. The one where anything published there, Wizards has the right to use in full and pay you nothing.

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 22, 2025, 10:59:46 PMI certainly like "roll to cast".  It helps keep the casters, a little closer to the martials, in overall damage output.

But it has appeared in other games, too.

DCC, and my games. And some others.

Quote from: SHARK on April 22, 2025, 07:15:27 PM

Quote from: Spobo on April 22, 2025, 10:14:00 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 07:26:30 PM

Quote from: Spobo on April 21, 2025, 06:23:35 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 21, 2025, 06:12:16 PM

Quote from: Venka on April 21, 2025, 04:28:26 PM

QuoteTime to enjoy some fresh coffee, my friend! Stay strong, brother!

This is you before coffee?  Holy moly!

Greetings!

Hello, Venka! *Laughing* Yeah, I can be in rare form when I have not had my coffee!

I wouldn't consider you a "Hater", Venka. Shadowdark is merely not your preference, as you like other kinds of games, as you said. A member here, Jeff, is a huge fan of Traveler. Tenbones, another member, is a huge fan of yet a different game as well. I imagine there are some uber fans of Palladium/Rifts. Having different preferences for whatever mechanics, theme, subject, style, and so on, is not a problem at all. Certainly not from me. For example, I don't like Traveler. I have absolutely nothing negative or hostile or critical to say about Traveler, far beyond then also having anything negative to say about the creator of Traveler, or the gamers that love Traveler, like Jeff.

Why?

Because I just don't really like any game based on science-fiction. I have very little interest in any RPG that deals with a time-subject beyond the Medieval period. Thus, I have nothing to say about Traveler, Star Wars, Aliens, Mecha games, Cyberpunk, et al.

I'm very much an Ancient History/Dark Ages/Medievalist person. *Laughing*

I should have included it here, but I will simply reference the video thing I posted previously, of some Shadowdark hater that did a whole video showcasing his hatred and contempt for Shadowdark as a game, Kelsey Dione the creator, and anyone and everyone that is a fan of Shadowdark. So, yeah, there are haters on YouTube. I don't do anything with Twitter, or Reddit or whatever. There's hatred just on YouTube. These kinds of hateful, ill-mannered troglodytes also show up in the comment section on actual fans of Shadowdark, as well as on Livestream commentary scrolls and so on. There's never many of them, but always a few, and they tend towards always being very loud, rude, and insulting.

Another example; On "Geek Gamers"--the host did a video walk through and discussion on "SoloDark"--the solo RPG rules for Shadowdark. Lots of positive, and interesting commentary and comments in her comment section. Very cool, interesting, and informative video. But then, there were a few morons that felt some deep-seated need to jump into the comment section, criticize and disparage the host for talking about Shadowdark, and then went on to discuss why they thought Shadowdark was absolute garbage.

That kind of behavior makes me want to chew on nails. *Laughing*

I also very much appreciate Alexander Macris. Macris is very talented, bright, and skilled. ACKS is a great game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It's worth noting that you have these over the top histrionic reactions to any criticism of the game or its fans, even if they don't say it in a mean way, so I don't really believe your descriptions of what other people are saying.

Greetings!

Well, Spobo, I don't think that your characterization of me is true, or accurate at all. In any event, I get tired of the stupid, baseless criticisms and arrogant attacks against Shadowdark, and generally, the gamers that enjoy Shadowdark. So, yeaah. I will blast them back ruthlessly. They deserve it in full.

As for "You don't believe" my descriptions of what others have said about Shadwdark? Ok, man. Whatever. Believe whatever you want. I posted a video previously of *precisely* the kind of arrogant, snotty, hate-filled and jealous ranting attacks made against Shadowdark. PROOF. There you go.

You don't believe me? WTF man?. Go pound sand then.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You have an absolute meltdown every single time the topic gets brought up, almost unprompted.

That's one video with barely any views. The last time this whole thing came up there were exactly two people with barely any views saying anything negative at all, that being Venger and Red Room. Then Pundit got dragged into it and had to explain to people that he was neither Venger nor Red Room and was fine with the game. There were also a handful of nobodies on twitter.

I'm sure some people say nasty things wherever you go but it's such a non-issue. What really gets me is that you use those people as a crutch to avoid anyone who has legitimate criticism.

For example you said this before:
"Shadowdark takes many ideas, blends them together, and presents them with polish, simplicity, modularity, and *style*. All these shriking morons cry about their dweeb game in a fucking basement. They choked. They don't have Shadowdark's organization, presentation, diverse inspirations, and style. That's why no one gives a fuck about their shrieking favourite game, and why so many people love Shadowdark. Simplicity, style, art, presentation, modularity, FUN. A STACK of fucking reasons why so many people love Shadowdark."

Lots of games do have Shadowdark's "diverse inspirations", "style", art, and modularity. The primary thing it adds is the polish, organization, and presentation. Sure, that's great. But you're being unnecessarily arrogant and shrill for no reason. It's this kind of over the top bloviating about how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and has NEVER BEEN DONE BEFORE that makes people have a negative reaction.

I don't even know which "favourite game" you're referring to or who said that, because usually what people correctly point out is that it isn't a single game, it's a movement of games called the OSR. People usually like several games within it. If I had to pick one, the one that Shadowdark borrows from the most, it would be Dungeon Crawl Classics. DCC isn't an obscure game no one has heard of, it's a pretty successful long-term moneymaker for Goodman Games you can find in a lot of game stores. I know for certain that Kelsey herself has heard of it, both because she clearly derived a lot of Shadowdark from it, and because she told me in a youtube comment.

Greetings!

*Laughing* I use the example people as a crutch to avoid anyone with legitimate criticism? Geesus. That's BS. I totally disagree with you. Most "legitimate criticism" is really just emotionally-based shrieking and hatred rooted in jealousy and envy. Oh, and also truckloads of absolute hypocrisy.

Anyone that likes OSE, DCC, Dragonslayer, Minotaurs & Mazes, et. al, should logically have a positive assessment of Shadowdark. Failing to do so is from what I have seen, again, mostly rooted in emotionalism, hatred, jealousy, and absolutely mind-boggling levels of hypocrisy. Perhaps one of the greatest strengths of Shadowdark is that as I have mentioned in many previous Shadowdark threads--many before you joined here, for example--is that Shadowdark takes many inspirations and elements from different sources, and pits them all together in one book. Many other OSR games don't do that as well, or in the same smooth way that Shadowdark does so. Next, Shadowdark embraces so many good elements, while simultaneously avoiding embracing serious flaws that many other games in the OSR have. Like DCC, for example. Too bloated, too many charts, just too many rules. And crazy dice. And interweaving a much higher degree of Gonzo throughout. All of that kind of problems--Shadowdark avoids.

Again though, much like my commentary about science fiction based RPG's, if a person really prefers DCC, well, fine. What rationale would such a person have for hating Shadowdark? Some people like Pathfinder. Some people love OSE, or the Minotaur game. Or Dragonslayer. Preferences is not the problem. The problem is seething hatred, intellectual dishonesty, hypocrisy, jealousy, and envy.

An example of a legitimate "criticism"--if that is even necessary--is say, "Well, I love lots of crunch, and Shadowdark is certainly less on crunch. That's why I love Pathfinder. Or DCC." Or, "I've already invested in OSE, have all the books, and don't want to change systems." Ok, fine. You, I think, have a difficult time actually identifying what the difference is between a legitimate criticism and emotionally-based BS. Actually think about the nuances of what I am saying here, and pointing out.

In my view, Shadowdark embraces all of the standards cherished in the OSR--and the true, deeper beauty, is that Shadowdark embraces these virtues and elements *without* getting tripped up with a bunch of over-wrought mechanics, endless rules, or other BS. That powerful dynamic in my mind is an absolute HUGE win for Shadowdark, and makes Shadowdark a strong and clear winner beyond most other games in the OSR. Editing, organization, layout, presentation, all of that are certainly powerful, and very present with Shadowdark. Many other games in the OSR are retarded and like baby cows in comparison to Shadowdark. Their owners and management have far less understanding of what great editing, organization, layout, presentation, and marketing can mean for a game product. *Within* those absolutely critical elements--which so many morons sneeringly dismiss--is a key attribute that builds in a foundational factor on why Shadowdark is so popular. And so hugely successful, also when compared to many other games in the OSR. That salient and compelling factor is "Less is More". What you include in such a game product is important, but also perhaps even more so, is what you CHOOSE TO EXCLUDE, OR CUT OUT.

Shadowdark has successfully done this, embraced this key dynamic, where so many others HAVE FAILED.

You can see this within the pages of the rules themselves. Also, however, within the rationale and aruments that many Shadowdark fans have described. Why do they prefer Shadowdark? Why are they shelving other games and converting their campaigns over to Shadowdark? What I have discussed are powerful elements that are seen with Shadowdark fans again and again, even if they do not use my exact phrasing or terminology.

As an aside, yeah, just having the free sample try out rules doesn't provide a comprehensive base for truly knowing about the game. YOU might think that when the gibbering morons spew that, that such is sufficient. I don't. If you cannot be bothered to own the complete rule book, then your assessment is significantly compromised, right off the bat.

Shadowdark is an excellent game system, very well designed, and beautifully presented. Shadowdark is brilliantly minimalist, while simultaneously providing a solid and strong framework for a DM to add *only* the additional elements desired for their campaign--without needing to wade through a swamp of things that they don't want.

If someone prefers a different game system, then great! ENJOY THAT OTHER SYSTEM. That is no reason to hate Shadowdark though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Okay you're just doing what I described again. You're getting way more emotional about this than anyone I've actually seen who doesn't like it.

Who is getting jealous and envious? Most people are not publishing their own games. I think you're talking about Venger again, who is one guy.

The criticism is not so much about the game itself as about its fans and the misleading way they present the game. It's a fine game and if someone invited me to play it at their table I'd play it (with some caveats). I do have some things I don't like about it just like I have things I don't like about lots of other OSR games. But it's a fine game largely because it's pieced together from other games and blogs.

This is what I mean when I say it's a constant motte and bailey argument.

The bailey is "Shadowdark is innovative and fresh, it brings old school gaming back, I really love new stuff like hex crawling, slot-based inventory, keeping track of resources, random tables, roll to cast, 0-level funnel, luck points, simplified classes, putting 5e advantage/disadvantage in an old school game", etc. etc.
As Pundit has pointed out this mainly comes from 5e players who have never played any other games, but other people repeat it freely as part of the word of mouth marketing.

When it gets pointed out that nothing it does is actually innovative or fresh for people who were paying attention the whole time, and all that stuff has been done before, including minimalism, you get a retreat to the motte:

"Sure, other games had all those things, but Shadowdark puts them all together in a nice slick package with a beautiful layout, it cuts out all the cruft," etc.

People constantly say the first one, when it's just blatantly not true, and then when called on it they go to the second one, which is mostly true. (It still has lots of parts I would consider unnecessary or cruft.) Then the next time it comes up they're back to the first one.
Then you get appeals to popularity and essentially "the real innovation is the friends we made along the way" and you're just a hater.

The response I usually get is "well what do you want??? you want Kelsey to tell everyone that she didn't invent the d20?? every RPG is built from other RPGs!"
It's not that extreme but I think some more public acknowledgement of the sources would be nice, at least from people hawking the game. The gold standard for this is Ben Milton who wrote Knave, another game that does something similar by combining lots of material from different OSR games and blogs and putting it together in a minimalist package with a nice layout (it also has more original ideas than Shadowdark does.) Knave has a dedicated section explaining all the influences on the game and the purpose behind them.
The various 5e clone games like Tales of the Valiant and Nimble are very upfront that they're 5e derivatives. Likewise most OSR games tell you that they're OSR. Shadowdark does not. The tagline is "old school gaming, modernized" which is vague and misleading. It isn't really based on OD&D, Basic, or AD&D. It's based on other games that came out in the last decade, and 5e. You can say this is just good marketing. Okay, so what?

I think Kelsey did take these criticisms to heart at least a little bit, because in the new kickstarter book there is a part acknowledging that the concept of a West Marches game came from someone else.

Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2025, 09:57:49 AM

Quote from: Spobo on April 22, 2025, 09:57:22 AMWhy would they own the book? It's 30 dollars and the free version already gives you everything you need to know about it.

If you made a video about Mork Borg based on the free version you'd be skipping over the impossible to find anything and eye melting graphic design. Your video would be very, very incomplete. Shadowdark is the same except in a positive way. If you are gonna review the the thing, review the thing properly. Even a PDF would be better than just going by the free version.

This is an absurd standard that no one here applies to any other games. Mork Borg is an even worse example because most players are going to end up using the rules summary in the back of the book for actual play, which means the contents of the free version.

The entire point of the Shadowdark free version is to give people the core of the game so they know what they're buying ahead of time. It's a good thing to do and it shows you what the system is like. I definitely appreciate that aspect of it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 25, 2025, 04:26:35 PMI think that list is your answer. Virtually all of the above made a huge bank, and then just vanished. No one talks about them or plays them, mostly.

Kickstarter is a terrible judge of if a game is successful or not, and there is such a long lag between the Kickstarter and delivery that most lose momentum.

Having said that Shadowdark's second Kickstarter shows they didn't lose momentum.