The OGL Leak Shows a Big Hasbro Mistake

Chris24601 · January 07, 2023, 04:48:38 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 04:40:26 PM
I agree that avoiding the OGL is possible... but... my question regards the Hit Dice Formula for monsters, etc. My games are pretty much not derivative of the SRD 3.5 or anything else from WotC, IMHO... except for the monster stats and the use of the Hit Dice Formula. Of all the crap that WofC claims as proprietary the Hit Dice Formula seems the most likely to be found to be a 'unique process intellectual property'.

How could you replace that? Is it necessary to replace it? Has the Hit Dice Formula become part of the public domain?

It would help if we knew what you meant by Hit Dice Formula. I'm aware of Hit Dice, but not of any special formula for their application.

squirewaldo · January 07, 2023, 05:07:12 PM

I asked the same question on my blog:

https://www.bozbat.com/2023/01/07/the-hit-dice-formula/

Here is the Hit Dice Formula as used in the SRD 3.*:

(X)d(Y)+(Z)
X = Number of HD
Y = Size of Dice (4, 6, 8, 10, 12 or 20)
Z = HD Bonus

From this formula the monster's level (X), attack bonus (X), and hit points (X * Mean Value of Die + Z) are derived. Replacing it would be a monumental task. Or at least that is what I am thinking right now.

Chris24601 · January 07, 2023, 05:10:08 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 05:07:12 PM
I asked the same question on my blog:

https://www.bozbat.com/2023/01/07/the-hit-dice-formula/

Here is the Hit Dice Formula as used in the SRD 3.*:

(X)d(Y)+(Z)
X = Number of HD
Y = Size of Dice (4, 6, 8, 10, 12 or 20)
Z = HD Bonus

From this formula the monster's level (X), attack bonus (X), and hit points (X * Mean Value of Die + Z) are derived. Replacing it would be a monumental task. Or at least that is what I am thinking right now.

Actually, that is a literal example of an uncopyrightable formula. If those values were laid out on a chart that chart could be copyrighted, but a basic formula like that is not copyrightable at all.

squirewaldo · January 07, 2023, 05:18:16 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 05:07:12 PM
I asked the same question on my blog:

https://www.bozbat.com/2023/01/07/the-hit-dice-formula/

Here is the Hit Dice Formula as used in the SRD 3.*:

(X)d(Y)+(Z)
X = Number of HD
Y = Size of Dice (4, 6, 8, 10, 12 or 20)
Z = HD Bonus

From this formula the monster's level (X), attack bonus (X), and hit points (X * Mean Value of Die + Z) are derived. Replacing it would be a monumental task. Or at least that is what I am thinking right now.
Actually, that is a literal example of an uncopyrightable formula. If those values were laid out on a chart that chart could be copyrighted, but a basic formula like that is not copyrightable at all.

I am not at all sure about that. Do you have any confirmation on that? Where does it say that formulas and algorithms are not subject to copyright? Plus the issue may not be about copyright so much as patent law. Over the last 30 years we have seen a lot of 'process patents' issued and winning in court. I suppose if it was a 'process' asset under patent law we would probably be ok, since it it has been about 50 years since its first introduction and it does appear to have been adopted by all sorts of people, suggesting a release to the public domain. I just don't want to be the test case to confirm this.

Chris24601 · January 07, 2023, 05:29:06 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 05:18:16 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 05:07:12 PM
I asked the same question on my blog:

https://www.bozbat.com/2023/01/07/the-hit-dice-formula/

Here is the Hit Dice Formula as used in the SRD 3.*:

(X)d(Y)+(Z)
X = Number of HD
Y = Size of Dice (4, 6, 8, 10, 12 or 20)
Z = HD Bonus

From this formula the monster's level (X), attack bonus (X), and hit points (X * Mean Value of Die + Z) are derived. Replacing it would be a monumental task. Or at least that is what I am thinking right now.
Actually, that is a literal example of an uncopyrightable formula. If those values were laid out on a chart that chart could be copyrighted, but a basic formula like that is not copyrightable at all.

I am not at all sure about that. Do you have any confirmation on that? Where does it say that formulas and algorithms are not subject to copyright? Plus the issue may not be about copyright so much as patent law. Over the last 30 years we have seen a lot of 'process patents' issued and winning in court. I suppose if it was a 'process' asset under patent law we would probably be ok, since it it has been about 50 years since its first introduction and it does appear to have been adopted by all sorts of people, suggesting a release to the public domain. I just don't want to be the test case to confirm this.

Patents are not copyrights. Process patents have a maximum lifespan of 20 years. Even if they had patented it in 2000 (they didn't), the patent has expired.

You cannot copyright formulas. Period. Its basic copyright law. If that doesn't convince you then you're just trying to scare yourself for the adrenaline hit.

S'mon · January 07, 2023, 05:46:37 PM

Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 05:18:16 PM
I am not at all sure about that. Do you have any confirmation on that? Where does it say that formulas and algorithms are not subject to copyright?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102

(b)In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

That's US law - 17 U.S. Code § 102 - Subject matter of copyright.

I can dig up the Berne Convention, TRIPS, and our UK CDPA 1988 if you remain unconvinced.

squirewaldo · January 07, 2023, 06:03:05 PM

Quote from: S'mon on January 07, 2023, 05:46:37 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 05:18:16 PM
I am not at all sure about that. Do you have any confirmation on that? Where does it say that formulas and algorithms are not subject to copyright?

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102

(b)In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

That's US law - 17 U.S. Code § 102 - Subject matter of copyright.

I can dig up the Berne Convention, TRIPS, and our UK CDPA 1988 if you remain unconvinced.

Thank you!

I am a worrier, and I like asking questions. Rather like 'doubting Thomas'... but seeing is believing!

GeekyBugle · January 08, 2023, 11:39:38 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 05:29:06 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 05:18:16 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 07, 2023, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: squirewaldo on January 07, 2023, 05:07:12 PM
I asked the same question on my blog:

https://www.bozbat.com/2023/01/07/the-hit-dice-formula/

Here is the Hit Dice Formula as used in the SRD 3.*:

(X)d(Y)+(Z)
X = Number of HD
Y = Size of Dice (4, 6, 8, 10, 12 or 20)
Z = HD Bonus

From this formula the monster's level (X), attack bonus (X), and hit points (X * Mean Value of Die + Z) are derived. Replacing it would be a monumental task. Or at least that is what I am thinking right now.
Actually, that is a literal example of an uncopyrightable formula. If those values were laid out on a chart that chart could be copyrighted, but a basic formula like that is not copyrightable at all.

I am not at all sure about that. Do you have any confirmation on that? Where does it say that formulas and algorithms are not subject to copyright? Plus the issue may not be about copyright so much as patent law. Over the last 30 years we have seen a lot of 'process patents' issued and winning in court. I suppose if it was a 'process' asset under patent law we would probably be ok, since it it has been about 50 years since its first introduction and it does appear to have been adopted by all sorts of people, suggesting a release to the public domain. I just don't want to be the test case to confirm this.
Patents are not copyrights. Process patents have a maximum lifespan of 20 years. Even if they had patented it in 2000 (they didn't), the patent has expired.

You cannot copyright formulas. Period. Its basic copyright law. If that doesn't convince you then you're just trying to scare yourself for the adrenaline hit.

Plus you CAN'T patent something that everybody is already using. For instance go and try to patent the process of brewing beer.

Plus MANY of the processes algorithms and formulas in D&D come from much older wargames.

GhostNinja · January 08, 2023, 12:27:45 PM

So last night I went to the game store where I run my D&D game and there were a lot of people talking about this subject. That includes people in my group an people who work in the store.

So it's clear that this has left the confounds of the internet and is now being talked about in person. Wizards/Hasbro has really screwed up.

One thing a player said to me was that while Pathfinder 1 is based on the OGL and would be hurt by this change, Pathfinder 2 is a different system that gets away from the OGL and it wouldnt have any effect. I know nothing about Pathfinder 2. Is this true?

Semaj Khan · January 08, 2023, 12:59:37 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on January 08, 2023, 12:27:45 PM
So last night I went to the game store where I run my D&D game and there were a lot of people talking about this subject. That includes people in my group an people who work in the store.

So it's clear that this has left the confounds of the internet and is now being talked about in person. Wizards/Hasbro has really screwed up.

One thing a player said to me was that while Pathfinder 1 is based on the OGL and would be hurt by this change, Pathfinder 2 is a different system that gets away from the OGL and it wouldnt have any effect. I know nothing about Pathfinder 2. Is this true?

Looking at the pdf I have of the core book, I'd say no. I haven't looked really hard at the mechanics, but just perusing the spell lists, I see so many spells that go back to OD&D and are definitely in the SRD. That's from a 30 second glance, so anyone who thinks differently... I'd be happy to hear it.

Armchair Gamer · January 08, 2023, 01:16:25 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 08, 2023, 12:59:37 PM
Looking at the pdf I have of the core book, I'd say no. I haven't looked really hard at the mechanics, but just perusing the spell lists, I see so many spells that go back to OD&D and are definitely in the SRD. That's from a 30 second glance, so anyone who thinks differently... I'd be happy to hear it.

I think there are a lot of games out there that have baseline mechanics that are either generic enough or different from the SRD that they can maintain the skeleton, but that are going to have to deal with reworking the spells, monsters, and magic items, and possibly the classes.

Chris24601 · January 08, 2023, 01:34:17 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 08, 2023, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 08, 2023, 12:59:37 PM
Looking at the pdf I have of the core book, I'd say no. I haven't looked really hard at the mechanics, but just perusing the spell lists, I see so many spells that go back to OD&D and are definitely in the SRD. That's from a 30 second glance, so anyone who thinks differently... I'd be happy to hear it.

I think there are a lot of games out there that have baseline mechanics that are either generic enough or different from the SRD that they can maintain the skeleton, but that are going to have to deal with reworking the spells, monsters, and magic items, and possibly the classes.

I generally agree, and to be on the safe side I suggest not just renaming things, but a complete rewrite of the fluff as well.

Things I'd look out for; use of chromatic/metallic dragons (with Dragons in their name I expect OneD&D to be especially prickly about offbrand use of their dragon categories), use of Alignment-based anything (planes, spells, monsters), planar structure in general (particularly wheels/mirrored structures), Vancian/X slots per spell level style magic systems... also Halflings and Reptilian Kobolds.

David Johansen · January 08, 2023, 01:43:09 PM

I've posted some notes on a renaming convention over here: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/so-how-many-osr-games-are-going-to-go-away-if-ogl-1-1-is-a-thing/

All open to discussion of course. If something of the sort is to be done it needs to be in place as soon as possible to prevent multiple variations.

GeekyBugle · January 08, 2023, 01:46:26 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 08, 2023, 01:34:17 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 08, 2023, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 08, 2023, 12:59:37 PM
Looking at the pdf I have of the core book, I'd say no. I haven't looked really hard at the mechanics, but just perusing the spell lists, I see so many spells that go back to OD&D and are definitely in the SRD. That's from a 30 second glance, so anyone who thinks differently... I'd be happy to hear it.

I think there are a lot of games out there that have baseline mechanics that are either generic enough or different from the SRD that they can maintain the skeleton, but that are going to have to deal with reworking the spells, monsters, and magic items, and possibly the classes.
I generally agree, and to be on the safe side I suggest not just renaming things, but a complete rewrite of the fluff as well.

Things I'd look out for; use of chromatic/metallic dragons (with Dragons in their name I expect OneD&D to be especially prickly about offbrand use of their dragon categories), use of Alignment-based anything (planes, spells, monsters), planar structure in general (particularly wheels/mirrored structures), Vancian/X slots per spell level style magic systems... also Halflings and Reptilian Kobolds.

This is correct, since WotC can't copyright Dragons, but the TYPE of Dragons and the fluff is IP therefore falls under the OGL and you could use it under it only.

I'm already working on a Bestiary that'll be placed under CC By SA. Mostly the fluff since I think it needs to be as system agnostic as possible.

honeydipperdavid · January 08, 2023, 02:03:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 08, 2023, 01:46:26 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 08, 2023, 01:34:17 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 08, 2023, 01:16:25 PM
Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 08, 2023, 12:59:37 PM
Looking at the pdf I have of the core book, I'd say no. I haven't looked really hard at the mechanics, but just perusing the spell lists, I see so many spells that go back to OD&D and are definitely in the SRD. That's from a 30 second glance, so anyone who thinks differently... I'd be happy to hear it.

I think there are a lot of games out there that have baseline mechanics that are either generic enough or different from the SRD that they can maintain the skeleton, but that are going to have to deal with reworking the spells, monsters, and magic items, and possibly the classes.
I generally agree, and to be on the safe side I suggest not just renaming things, but a complete rewrite of the fluff as well.

Things I'd look out for; use of chromatic/metallic dragons (with Dragons in their name I expect OneD&D to be especially prickly about offbrand use of their dragon categories), use of Alignment-based anything (planes, spells, monsters), planar structure in general (particularly wheels/mirrored structures), Vancian/X slots per spell level style magic systems... also Halflings and Reptilian Kobolds.

This is correct, since WotC can't copyright Dragons, but the TYPE of Dragons and the fluff is IP therefore falls under the OGL and you could use it under it only.

I'm already working on a Bestiary that'll be placed under CC By SA. Mostly the fluff since I think it needs to be as system agnostic as possible.

Paizo could have Liquid Dragons (replacement for metalics) and Emotions (replacements for chromatics), Bahamut and Tiamat in for their dragons and there isn't a dang thing WotC could do to stop them (damn Zoroasterites coming up with Bahamut and Tiamat).