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The OGL Leak Shows a Big Hasbro Mistake

Started by RPGPundit, January 06, 2023, 03:12:17 PM

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blackstone

#60
January 11, 2023, 07:13:24 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 10, 2023, 10:48:38 PM
None of this is likely to affect the OSR in a big way. A lot of OSR products (including some of mine, because of my publishers) used the OGL, but most of them never really had to.

My own games use basically NOTHING that originated with the SRD as proprietary material of Wizards of the Coast.  The only people WotC might have a claim against are the creators of clone products, products that have made use of specific vancian spell names for example, could be caught out.

But Armor Class, Hit Points, or Saving Throws are not something that they can make a claim over, because all of these predate the existence of D&D.

The only real effect this will have for most OSR writers is that they won't put the little OGL notice at the back of their books anymore.

All of this is 100% spot on. Multiple sources are out there to confirm this.

If I may add, Str, Int, Wis, Dex, Con, Cha also fall into this category. Tunnels & Trolls, Palladium, etc. use these terms as well and without any issues.
1. I'm a married homeowner with a career and kids. I won life. You can't insult me.

2. I've been deployed to Iraq, so your tough guy act is boring.

migo

#61
January 11, 2023, 07:14:46 AM
Quote from: S'mon on January 11, 2023, 06:55:14 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on January 10, 2023, 10:48:38 PM
None of this is likely to affect the OSR in a big way. A lot of OSR products (including some of mine, because of my publishers) used the OGL, but most of them never really had to.

My own games use basically NOTHING that originated with the SRD as proprietary material of Wizards of the Coast.  The only people WotC might have a claim against are the creators of clone products, products that have made use of specific vancian spell names for example, could be caught out.

But Armor Class, Hit Points, or Saving Throws are not something that they can make a claim over, because all of these predate the existence of D&D.

The only real effect this will have for most OSR writers is that they won't put the little OGL notice at the back of their books anymore.

I agree. It is a huge problem for the makers of retro-clones though. My view is that relying on the validity of OGL 1.0, as eg Stuart Marshall says he's doing with OSRIC, is a lot safer than trying to rejig a retro-clone to not need a licence, as Basic Fantasy RPG is attempting. Though in the latter case the author says he'll simply fold anyway if he gets a C&D, so *shrug*.

It depends on the nature of the retro-clone. BFRPG isn't trying to be exactly like B/X, just like it. It can keep the same play feel while changing enough to not rely on the OGL. OSRIC is trying to be an exact clone, like OSE, and that's where the OGL is really necessary.

LotFP would have a very easy time changing - it already doesn't have monsters, and stripping out all the OGL spells and changing the spellcasting is right in line with what Raggi wants anyway.

RPGPundit

#62
January 12, 2023, 01:06:54 PM
How nice for me that every single OSR game I've ever written doesn't have any original D&D monsters and none of them use the D&D magic system...
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blackstone

#63
January 12, 2023, 02:43:58 PM Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 03:03:54 PM by blackstone
UPDATE! Looks like WoTC is going to make a statement on Twitch at 3pm EST.
1. I'm a married homeowner with a career and kids. I won life. You can't insult me.

2. I've been deployed to Iraq, so your tough guy act is boring.

rytrasmi

#64
January 12, 2023, 02:55:30 PM
Quote from: blackstone on January 12, 2023, 02:43:58 PM
UPDATE! Looks like WoTC is going to make a statement on D&D Beyond (I believe that's the place) at 3pm EST.
I mean this will be interesting but I can't imagine what kind statement would do anything. It takes years to build goodwill and only a moment to destroy it.

My prediction is it will be a lot of spin with little substance.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry

blackstone

#65
January 12, 2023, 03:18:24 PM
Quote from: blackstone on January 12, 2023, 02:43:58 PM
UPDATE! Looks like WoTC is going to make a statement on Twitch at 3pm EST.

UPDATE! Twitch-stream is CANCELLED. LOL!
1. I'm a married homeowner with a career and kids. I won life. You can't insult me.

2. I've been deployed to Iraq, so your tough guy act is boring.

Chris24601

#66
January 12, 2023, 03:26:56 PM
Quote from: blackstone on January 12, 2023, 03:18:24 PM
Quote from: blackstone on January 12, 2023, 02:43:58 PM
UPDATE! Looks like WoTC is going to make a statement on Twitch at 3pm EST.

UPDATE! Twitch-stream is CANCELLED. LOL!
Does anyone still doubt my statement that we aren't dealing with evil geniuses, but a bunch of greedy first-stage thinkers who, now that the inevitable unconsidered backlash has struck literally have no idea what to do?

The leaker said all they care about are DBB subs as a metric they can immediately measure. I've watched a thread on their forums called "canceling my subscription" explode over there so my hunch? They looked at the number of cancelled subs (and rate they're coming in) and had a fresh panic attack.

jeff37923

#67
January 12, 2023, 03:31:03 PM
Quote from: blackstone on January 12, 2023, 03:18:24 PM
Quote from: blackstone on January 12, 2023, 02:43:58 PM
UPDATE! Looks like WoTC is going to make a statement on Twitch at 3pm EST.

UPDATE! Twitch-stream is CANCELLED. LOL!

WotC now stands for Wizards of the Clown World.
"Meh."

THE_Leopold

#68
January 12, 2023, 03:35:15 PM
It looks like they have a routine Thursday 3pm EST live stream planned.  Wisely they canceled it due to the sheer volume of expected outrage that would show up and crash that live stream.  There's another one at 5pm EST (after the bell closes in Wall Street). Let's see if they cancel that one as well.
NKL4Lyfe

S'mon

#69
January 12, 2023, 03:56:56 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on January 12, 2023, 03:35:15 PM
It looks like they have a routine Thursday 3pm EST live stream planned.  Wisely they canceled it due to the sheer volume of expected outrage that would show up and crash that live stream.  There's another one at 5pm EST (after the bell closes in Wall Street). Let's see if they cancel that one as well.

No, 5pm Tuesday now.

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rytrasmi

#70
January 12, 2023, 03:58:11 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 12, 2023, 03:26:56 PM
Quote from: blackstone on January 12, 2023, 03:18:24 PM
Quote from: blackstone on January 12, 2023, 02:43:58 PM
UPDATE! Looks like WoTC is going to make a statement on Twitch at 3pm EST.

UPDATE! Twitch-stream is CANCELLED. LOL!
Does anyone still doubt my statement that we aren't dealing with evil geniuses, but a bunch of greedy first-stage thinkers who, now that the inevitable unconsidered backlash has struck literally have no idea what to do?

The leaker said all they care about are DBB subs as a metric they can immediately measure. I've watched a thread on their forums called "canceling my subscription" explode over there so my hunch? They looked at the number of cancelled subs (and rate they're coming in) and had a fresh panic attack.
Yeah I'm thinking they did not expect this much backlash. I don't think they're geniuses but they did have an evil plan. Now they're scrambling for a way control the damage. They test of whether their idiots or not will be their statement.

If they try to stuff the fart back into the asshole, they're idiots.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry

Bruwulf

#71
January 12, 2023, 04:17:33 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 12, 2023, 03:58:11 PM
If they try to stuff the fart back into the asshole, they're idiots.

I basically see three ways they might go.


  • "Yup, we're evil, live with it, get fucked complainers." A.K.A. the Blizzard strategy. No apology, no contrition, no attempts to justify or obfuscate.
  • "You're all misunderstanding, we'll try to clear up any confusion and concerns." We might even get a new version of 1.1 that is functionally identical to the leaked version, but slightly re-worded. This means they think we're all idiots and that this will die down, but they still wanna try to placate us.
  • "Yeah, we screwed up, here's out counter offer:" The best we can hope for realistically, I think, is that they admit that 1.1 was/is real, and that going forward all their new content will be put out under 1.1a but they don't revoke 1.0a. Basically they write off the OSR/Pathfinder markets as a casualty, accept that realistically there's nothing they can do about them that will profit them, decide it isn't worth it, and try to earn a little good PR by promising to leave them alone. I don't expect this, but I would say there's an outside chance of it.



Possibilities 4 and 5 would be "Those responsible have been sacked", and "It was all a big hoax", which are both I suppose technically possible, but I think are too unlikely to be worth real consideration.

rytrasmi

#72
January 12, 2023, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf on January 12, 2023, 04:17:33 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on January 12, 2023, 03:58:11 PM
If they try to stuff the fart back into the asshole, they're idiots.

I basically see three ways they might go.


  • "Yup, we're evil, live with it, get fucked complainers." A.K.A. the Blizzard strategy. No apology, no contrition, no attempts to justify or obfuscate.
  • "You're all misunderstanding, we'll try to clear up any confusion and concerns." We might even get a new version of 1.1 that is functionally identical to the leaked version, but slightly re-worded. This means they think we're all idiots and that this will die down, but they still wanna try to placate us.
  • "Yeah, we screwed up, here's out counter offer:" The best we can hope for realistically, I think, is that they admit that 1.1 was/is real, and that going forward all their new content will be put out under 1.1a but they don't revoke 1.0a. Basically they write off the OSR/Pathfinder markets as a casualty, accept that realistically there's nothing they can do about them that will profit them, decide it isn't worth it, and try to earn a little good PR by promising to leave them alone. I don't expect this, but I would say there's an outside chance of it.



Possibilities 4 and 5 would be "Those responsible have been sacked", and "It was all a big hoax", which are both I suppose technically possible, but I think are too unlikely to be worth real consideration.
3 would be realistic and ideal, but that would mean they suddenly give a shit about the hobby. I don't think the execs there play D&D outside of mandated team building events. My money is on 2, they make some token changes to 1.1 and try to bafflegab their way past it.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry

Jam The MF

#73
January 12, 2023, 05:27:29 PM
It's like some powerful arcane entity, has compelled WOTC to self destruct?
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Jam The MF

#74
January 12, 2023, 05:47:37 PM
Over on RPG.wet, they have an official thread at the top of the D&D page; but the moderators are commenting more than the membership is.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.
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