The New PHB is Morbidly Obese

RPGPundit · July 27, 2024, 02:43:42 AM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 26, 2024, 10:52:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2024, 05:33:06 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 25, 2024, 06:06:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2024, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: Monero on July 23, 2024, 08:57:54 PMImagine thinking 5e is "bloated" with rules. If anything 5e is rules lite which is why I don't like it.

Not sure if you watched the video, but I was specifically talking about how it is becoming relatively bloated for the mission statement of the original designers of 5e (including me): to create a game that is extremely friendly to "casual" players.

I think it's funny how as time goes on, your role in the design and development of 5e seems to have grown. At least as you tell it.

You were not one of the "original designers of 5e". You were a consultant, and one among many.

To my knowledge, the only one to have exchanged literally hundreds of correspondences with Mike Mearls. It was in fact one of the points I emphasized above all: that for 5e to be a long-running evergreen success it had to be the opposite of what Cook & Tweet had done with 'system mastery'. A lot of my consulting (and totally unlike any other consultant that I know of) consisted of picking apart elements of the early rules that were too complicated.

I don't doubt that you corresponded extensively with Mike Mearls, or that you emphasized a move away from "System Mastery", or that you picked apart parts of the rules from older editions. And the fact that WotC actually listed you by name (I recall they used your real name originally - did they change that to "RPGPundit" at some point?) in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy. That's cool.

That said, none of that makes you one of the "original designers of 5e". It makes you what you were: a consultant (sometimes also known as a playtester).

Regarding System Mastery, I don't think it's bad thing, but I agree it's less important than making the game approachable to casual players. The real trick, IMO, is designing a system that is approachable to new and casual players but that also rewards System Mastery.

Lou Prosperi

No. Wrong.

I was not a playtester. There were hundreds of playtesters, none of which got to talk to Mike Mearls. I did not play the game to test it at all. To my knowledge, no playtesters were paid either; I was, handsomely.

My title was consultant. I probably had more to do with the direction of 5e than most of the WotC D&D employees at the time. I'm sorry that seems to bother you, but facts don't care about your feelings.

LouProsperi · July 29, 2024, 12:29:34 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 27, 2024, 02:43:42 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 26, 2024, 10:52:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2024, 05:33:06 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 25, 2024, 06:06:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2024, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: Monero on July 23, 2024, 08:57:54 PMImagine thinking 5e is "bloated" with rules. If anything 5e is rules lite which is why I don't like it.

Not sure if you watched the video, but I was specifically talking about how it is becoming relatively bloated for the mission statement of the original designers of 5e (including me): to create a game that is extremely friendly to "casual" players.

I think it's funny how as time goes on, your role in the design and development of 5e seems to have grown. At least as you tell it.

You were not one of the "original designers of 5e". You were a consultant, and one among many.

To my knowledge, the only one to have exchanged literally hundreds of correspondences with Mike Mearls. It was in fact one of the points I emphasized above all: that for 5e to be a long-running evergreen success it had to be the opposite of what Cook & Tweet had done with 'system mastery'. A lot of my consulting (and totally unlike any other consultant that I know of) consisted of picking apart elements of the early rules that were too complicated.

I don't doubt that you corresponded extensively with Mike Mearls, or that you emphasized a move away from "System Mastery", or that you picked apart parts of the rules from older editions. And the fact that WotC actually listed you by name (I recall they used your real name originally - did they change that to "RPGPundit" at some point?) in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy. That's cool.

That said, none of that makes you one of the "original designers of 5e". It makes you what you were: a consultant (sometimes also known as a playtester).

Regarding System Mastery, I don't think it's bad thing, but I agree it's less important than making the game approachable to casual players. The real trick, IMO, is designing a system that is approachable to new and casual players but that also rewards System Mastery.

Lou Prosperi

No. Wrong.

I was not a playtester. There were hundreds of playtesters, none of which got to talk to Mike Mearls. I did not play the game to test it at all. To my knowledge, no playtesters were paid either; I was, handsomely.

My title was consultant. I probably had more to do with the direction of 5e than most of the WotC D&D employees at the time. I'm sorry that seems to bother you, but facts don't care about your feelings.

I didn't mean to suggest you were just a playtester. As I said above the fact that WotC actually listed you by name in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy.

That said, playtesters are a form of consultant, though they're typically not paid and don't always correspond with the designers. In my time as a playtester (which is how I got started in the industry) I often corresponded with designers and developers about the materials I was testing, but it obviously works differently with different people and projects.

Lou Prosperi

hedgehobbit · July 29, 2024, 12:39:35 PM

Considering that the new version is called Revised and Expanded Fifth Edition, I just assumed that bloat was part of the deal.

And it makes sense. If the rules are bloated enough to be difficult to run face-to-face, then more players will use the digital tabletop version to help managed the myriad of bonuses and special cases. This is what we call "synergy".

Orphan81 · July 29, 2024, 04:43:02 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 29, 2024, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 27, 2024, 02:43:42 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 26, 2024, 10:52:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2024, 05:33:06 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 25, 2024, 06:06:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2024, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: Monero on July 23, 2024, 08:57:54 PMImagine thinking 5e is "bloated" with rules. If anything 5e is rules lite which is why I don't like it.

Not sure if you watched the video, but I was specifically talking about how it is becoming relatively bloated for the mission statement of the original designers of 5e (including me): to create a game that is extremely friendly to "casual" players.

I think it's funny how as time goes on, your role in the design and development of 5e seems to have grown. At least as you tell it.

You were not one of the "original designers of 5e". You were a consultant, and one among many.

To my knowledge, the only one to have exchanged literally hundreds of correspondences with Mike Mearls. It was in fact one of the points I emphasized above all: that for 5e to be a long-running evergreen success it had to be the opposite of what Cook & Tweet had done with 'system mastery'. A lot of my consulting (and totally unlike any other consultant that I know of) consisted of picking apart elements of the early rules that were too complicated.

I don't doubt that you corresponded extensively with Mike Mearls, or that you emphasized a move away from "System Mastery", or that you picked apart parts of the rules from older editions. And the fact that WotC actually listed you by name (I recall they used your real name originally - did they change that to "RPGPundit" at some point?) in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy. That's cool.

That said, none of that makes you one of the "original designers of 5e". It makes you what you were: a consultant (sometimes also known as a playtester).

Regarding System Mastery, I don't think it's bad thing, but I agree it's less important than making the game approachable to casual players. The real trick, IMO, is designing a system that is approachable to new and casual players but that also rewards System Mastery.

Lou Prosperi

No. Wrong.

I was not a playtester. There were hundreds of playtesters, none of which got to talk to Mike Mearls. I did not play the game to test it at all. To my knowledge, no playtesters were paid either; I was, handsomely.

My title was consultant. I probably had more to do with the direction of 5e than most of the WotC D&D employees at the time. I'm sorry that seems to bother you, but facts don't care about your feelings.

I didn't mean to suggest you were just a playtester. As I said above the fact that WotC actually listed you by name in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy.

That said, playtesters are a form of consultant, though they're typically not paid and don't always correspond with the designers. In my time as a playtester (which is how I got started in the industry) I often corresponded with designers and developers about the materials I was testing, but it obviously works differently with different people and projects.

Lou Prosperi

I'm just, literally curious what your intent here is in trying to diminish Pundit's role in the design of 5e.

Brad · July 29, 2024, 04:48:27 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 29, 2024, 04:43:02 PMI'm just, literally curious what your intent here is in trying to diminish Pundit's role in the design of 5e.

Pundit hates communists, so therefore he cannot possibly have done anything important. That's all it is.

GeekyBugle · July 29, 2024, 06:21:58 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 29, 2024, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 27, 2024, 02:43:42 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 26, 2024, 10:52:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2024, 05:33:06 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 25, 2024, 06:06:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2024, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: Monero on July 23, 2024, 08:57:54 PMImagine thinking 5e is "bloated" with rules. If anything 5e is rules lite which is why I don't like it.

Not sure if you watched the video, but I was specifically talking about how it is becoming relatively bloated for the mission statement of the original designers of 5e (including me): to create a game that is extremely friendly to "casual" players.

I think it's funny how as time goes on, your role in the design and development of 5e seems to have grown. At least as you tell it.

You were not one of the "original designers of 5e". You were a consultant, and one among many.

To my knowledge, the only one to have exchanged literally hundreds of correspondences with Mike Mearls. It was in fact one of the points I emphasized above all: that for 5e to be a long-running evergreen success it had to be the opposite of what Cook & Tweet had done with 'system mastery'. A lot of my consulting (and totally unlike any other consultant that I know of) consisted of picking apart elements of the early rules that were too complicated.

I don't doubt that you corresponded extensively with Mike Mearls, or that you emphasized a move away from "System Mastery", or that you picked apart parts of the rules from older editions. And the fact that WotC actually listed you by name (I recall they used your real name originally - did they change that to "RPGPundit" at some point?) in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy. That's cool.

That said, none of that makes you one of the "original designers of 5e". It makes you what you were: a consultant (sometimes also known as a playtester).

Regarding System Mastery, I don't think it's bad thing, but I agree it's less important than making the game approachable to casual players. The real trick, IMO, is designing a system that is approachable to new and casual players but that also rewards System Mastery.

Lou Prosperi

No. Wrong.

I was not a playtester. There were hundreds of playtesters, none of which got to talk to Mike Mearls. I did not play the game to test it at all. To my knowledge, no playtesters were paid either; I was, handsomely.

My title was consultant. I probably had more to do with the direction of 5e than most of the WotC D&D employees at the time. I'm sorry that seems to bother you, but facts don't care about your feelings.

I didn't mean to suggest you were just a playtester. As I said above the fact that WotC actually listed you by name in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy.

That said, playtesters are a form of consultant, though they're typically not paid and don't always correspond with the designers. In my time as a playtester (which is how I got started in the industry) I often corresponded with designers and developers about the materials I was testing, but it obviously works differently with different people and projects.

Lou Prosperi

Except that you did:

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 26, 2024, 10:52:25 AMsnip

That said, none of that makes you one of the "original designers of 5e". It makes you what you were: a consultant (sometimes also known as a playtester).

snip

Lou Prosperi

A quote that's right there, above to what you're responding to, the giant brass balls to lie when your words proving you a liar are right there.

LouProsperi · July 29, 2024, 06:48:46 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 29, 2024, 04:43:02 PM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 29, 2024, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 27, 2024, 02:43:42 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 26, 2024, 10:52:25 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 26, 2024, 05:33:06 AM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 25, 2024, 06:06:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2024, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: Monero on July 23, 2024, 08:57:54 PMImagine thinking 5e is "bloated" with rules. If anything 5e is rules lite which is why I don't like it.

Not sure if you watched the video, but I was specifically talking about how it is becoming relatively bloated for the mission statement of the original designers of 5e (including me): to create a game that is extremely friendly to "casual" players.

I think it's funny how as time goes on, your role in the design and development of 5e seems to have grown. At least as you tell it.

You were not one of the "original designers of 5e". You were a consultant, and one among many.

To my knowledge, the only one to have exchanged literally hundreds of correspondences with Mike Mearls. It was in fact one of the points I emphasized above all: that for 5e to be a long-running evergreen success it had to be the opposite of what Cook & Tweet had done with 'system mastery'. A lot of my consulting (and totally unlike any other consultant that I know of) consisted of picking apart elements of the early rules that were too complicated.

I don't doubt that you corresponded extensively with Mike Mearls, or that you emphasized a move away from "System Mastery", or that you picked apart parts of the rules from older editions. And the fact that WotC actually listed you by name (I recall they used your real name originally - did they change that to "RPGPundit" at some point?) in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy. That's cool.

That said, none of that makes you one of the "original designers of 5e". It makes you what you were: a consultant (sometimes also known as a playtester).

Regarding System Mastery, I don't think it's bad thing, but I agree it's less important than making the game approachable to casual players. The real trick, IMO, is designing a system that is approachable to new and casual players but that also rewards System Mastery.

Lou Prosperi

No. Wrong.

I was not a playtester. There were hundreds of playtesters, none of which got to talk to Mike Mearls. I did not play the game to test it at all. To my knowledge, no playtesters were paid either; I was, handsomely.

My title was consultant. I probably had more to do with the direction of 5e than most of the WotC D&D employees at the time. I'm sorry that seems to bother you, but facts don't care about your feelings.

I didn't mean to suggest you were just a playtester. As I said above the fact that WotC actually listed you by name in the credits of the early printing(s) suggests that your contributions were note worthy.

That said, playtesters are a form of consultant, though they're typically not paid and don't always correspond with the designers. In my time as a playtester (which is how I got started in the industry) I often corresponded with designers and developers about the materials I was testing, but it obviously works differently with different people and projects.

Lou Prosperi

I'm just, literally curious what your intent here is in trying to diminish Pundit's role in the design of 5e.

My only point is to clarify that, despite his recent claim, he was NOT "one of the original designers of 5e". He just clarified that his "title was Consultant." Beyond that we have only his word that he had any influence at all in the game. Given his generally narcissistic demeanor, I think it's reasonable to doubt some of his claims.

Lou Prosperi

LouProsperi · July 29, 2024, 06:52:30 PM

Quote from: Brad on July 29, 2024, 04:48:27 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 29, 2024, 04:43:02 PMI'm just, literally curious what your intent here is in trying to diminish Pundit's role in the design of 5e.

Pundit hates communists, so therefore he cannot possibly have done anything important. That's all it is.

EDITED. I crossed a line. Apologies.

Lou Prosperi

GeekyBugle · July 29, 2024, 07:10:37 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 29, 2024, 06:52:30 PM
Quote from: Brad on July 29, 2024, 04:48:27 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 29, 2024, 04:43:02 PMI'm just, literally curious what your intent here is in trying to diminish Pundit's role in the design of 5e.

Pundit hates communists, so therefore he cannot possibly have done anything important. That's all it is.

More like he's a malignant narcissist who claimed to be "one of the original designers of 5e" when, in his own words, his "title was consultant". Which is it?

Lou Prosperi

Except Pundit ISN'T a communist.

Brad · July 29, 2024, 07:18:02 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 29, 2024, 06:52:30 PMMore like he's a malignant narcissist who claimed to be "one of the original designers of 5e" when, in his own words, his "title was consultant". Which is it?

Lou Prosperi

Two questions: when did you perform your psychological examination on Pundit and where did you get your doctorate and/or MD from?

Eirikrautha · July 29, 2024, 07:48:16 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 29, 2024, 06:52:30 PMMore like he's a malignant narcissist...

Says the guy that chases down a dude on his own website to nitpick his commentary.

For your sake, I hope that IMax isn't litigious, because you are infringing on their patent for massive projection...

Omega · July 29, 2024, 08:47:28 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 29, 2024, 12:39:35 PMConsidering that the new version is called Revised and Expanded Fifth Edition, I just assumed that bloat was part of the deal.

No. wotc is lying, as usual.

This is not a "revised" or "expanded" edition. It is a new system that is not compatible with 5e.

Tod13 · July 30, 2024, 07:51:08 AM

I'm a software developer who started in the 80s, with Dilbert in full bloom.

I keep reading PHB as Pointy Haired Boss.

(Good video as usual!)

LouProsperi · July 30, 2024, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Brad on July 29, 2024, 07:18:02 PM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 29, 2024, 06:52:30 PMMore like he's a malignant narcissist who claimed to be "one of the original designers of 5e" when, in his own words, his "title was consultant". Which is it?

Lou Prosperi

Two questions: when did you perform your psychological examination on Pundit and where did you get your doctorate and/or MD from?

You're right. I crossed a line and sincerely apologize for suggesting that he has a mental disorder. That's nothing to joke about or accuse anyone of.

Lou Prosperi

Eirikrautha · July 30, 2024, 02:08:17 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 30, 2024, 08:51:03 AM
Quote from: Brad on July 29, 2024, 07:18:02 PM
Quote from: LouProsperi on July 29, 2024, 06:52:30 PMMore like he's a malignant narcissist who claimed to be "one of the original designers of 5e" when, in his own words, his "title was consultant". Which is it?

Lou Prosperi

Two questions: when did you perform your psychological examination on Pundit and where did you get your doctorate and/or MD from?

You're right. I crossed a line and sincerely apologize for suggesting that he has a mental disorder. That's nothing to joke about or accuse anyone of.

Lou Prosperi

Inform the woke! Lou Prosperi joked about mental illness! He must be cancelled!

Live by the sword...