Quote from: Seanchai;370520Neither. Both tables are populated with folks who are used to using minis. They'll both notice that play is difference.

If you want to demonstrate that 4e works better with minis or tokens or whatnot, there's no need - no one's disagreeing with that assertion.

First statement is false. You can take away the minis from an AD&D game, and the game can accommodate the change. They can keep playing RAW (remember Zeb Cook stating that 2e combat was a narrative game). If you take away the minis from a 4e game, the game does not accommodate. The RAW break down, and it's very noticeable.

What we are saying is that AD&D works well with or without minis while 4e does not. AD&D satisfies a number of playstyles while 4e craps all over anyone who doesn't like minis. Hence, the hate coming from many long-time D&Ders. Hence, the OSR getting underway with the advent of 3e and it's grid-based play (which is the major difference between it and 2e).

None of the RPG companies tried to sell us minis in the early years.

I had of course obtained an impressive collection of 1/72 miniatures before RPG games ever hit the scene, and had started collecting Airfix plastics sometime in 1971. This went hand-in-hand with Airfix and Hasegawa 1/72 models. I had awesome camo painted M5a1 Stuarts, and M3 Shermans, M3a1 halftracks, Willy jeeps galore, some with trailers, some with the 37mm AT gun, Pzkpfw II, Pzkpfw IV, Pk kpfv V (Panthers), Pk kpfv VI (Tigers), Pk kpfv VI-II (King Tigers), Marders, Hetzers, Sturmgeschutz Stgz III, Kettenkraftrad Sd.Kfz.2, Sdkfz 250/2 Halftracks, Schützenpanzerwagen Sd.Kfz.251 Ausf D Halftracks, Opel Trucks, American Deuce and a Half's, and several battalions of troops including an American Paratrooper Company, a Company of US Marines, More than a company of British eight army, amybe two. I also had a few Bren carriers for the brits, and PAK57 and a couple of the dual role 88mm Anti-aircraft batteries., I also had German paratroopers and tons of 1/72 regular Wermacht Infantry. There were had bunkers, and sandbag emplacements and I had a few aircraft as well, P-38 Lightnings, P-47 Thunderbolts, ME-109's and Japanese Zeros.... I think I had a platoon or two of Japanese Infantry as well..

Had started playing board wargames regularly in the summer of 1974, as the neighbor had a subscription to SPI, and was getting a new game every month. Any game he didn't like, he gave to me. Wish I had them all now, They would allow me to put my daughter through college. Anyway, started collecting Milton-Bradley, SPI, and Avalon Hill wargames and had a rather large collection of board wargames by the time I first came across 0D&D early in 1977.

Probably for the first couple years, we just played D&D with paper, and pencils, and dice. Eventually though the local hobbyshop started stocking Dragon magazine, and miniatures in small quantities as well, and we started buying them (Even though they were much more expensive than the 1/72 miniatures and models).

We knew of the release of the D&D Minis sets in 1979, and asked our FLCS (It was a comics store) to order them. The local toy store ordered a large quantity of Ral Partha minis as well. While I liked the official D&D minis, The Ral Partha Knights really sold me! These blisters contained one mounted, and one Knight on foot which was totally awesome! You could do Dungeons, and also Wilderness adventures with your character, since the fighter in the Kinights Pack was the same guy, only one version of the fighter was on foot, and the other was mounted, with lances. It totally rocked.

They had a hard time initially keeping these minis in stock, as we would buy out whatever we liked and the game stores would have to order more.

It was only after 82 when the market was flooded with dozens of new miniatures companies, and TSR really ramped up production of their mini boxed sets that the focus of 1st AD&D shifted towards minis. They made far more off the minis than they ever did selling books. By 1982 I had collected and painted 1200 or so.

Quote from: GameDaddy;370624We knew of the release of the D&D Minis sets in 1979, and asked our FLCS (It was a comics store) to order them. The local toy store ordered a large quantity of Ral Partha minis as well. While I liked the official D&D minis, The Ral Partha Knights really sold me! These blisters contained one mounted, and one Knight on foot which was totally awesome! You could do Dungeons, and also Wilderness adventures with your character, since the fighter in the Kinights Pack was the same guy, only one version of the fighter was on foot, and the other was mounted, with lances. It totally rocked.

Ral Partha was awesome. I found out about them much later, at the end of the 80s, but man... I loved those. Still do.

Ral Partha was the Gold Standard. I had the same knight pack and I spent hours painting them up. I still remember, emerald green and royal blue. I REALLY wish I still had that mounted mini (I bet it is SOMEWHERE in the attic - I never got rid of anything from those days).

Quote from: Benoist;370531Nobody's saying that "AD&D is intended as a minis-free paradise".

"This new red box is nothing like the old red box.

Are you guys just being willfully ignorant?

The old red box:

"THIS GAME REQUIRES NO GAMEBOARD BECAUSE THE ACTION TAKES PLACE IN THE PLAYER'S IMAGINATION . . ."

The new red box:

The game requires a square-grid map, and miniatures/tokens/etc. (all included).

Come on guys; these are two totally different games. One is boardgame; the other is not.

The old D&D was a revolutionary new hobby, unlike any other game (no gameboard! everything in the mind's eye!).

The new D&D, 4e, is just a board game, a tactical miniatures board wargame of fantasy superheroes.

I love the old D&D - in a class of its own. I wouldn't touch this new miniatures boardgame, this so-called D&D.

This new red box will be a failure just like all the other basic sets that Wizards has released.

When Wizards finally realizes what it was that made D&D such a huge success (i.e. a game played totally in the imagination, requiring only the imagination), then they will be able to recapture some of what was lost. It may be too late, though. The last decade of D&D has been all square-grid, and it keeps getting worse.

Wizards releases crap like tiles and miniatures. THAT'S DEFEATING THE WHOLE POINT! We don't want our imaginations to be limited by what others have produced (i.e. tiles that say "this is what the dungeon looks like", or miniatures that say "this is what your guy looks like").

Wizards just doesn't understand what it is that separates the RPG from other games.

Gary gave the "gift of endless imagination". Hard to have endless imagination when you are constrained by limited tiles, miniatures, etc."

Seanchai

Quote from: 1989;370605First statement is false. You can take away the minis from an AD&D game, and the game can accommodate the change.

Given that areola's statement concerns the players, not the system, it's hardly false.

But the idea that 4e can't be played without miniatures, tokens, mats, etc., is horseshit. I've done it. I wouldn't do it frequently and it wasn't as easy as playing with minis and a mat, but we did it without changing anything.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;370739Given that areola's statement concerns the players, not the system, it's hardly false.

But the idea that 4e can't be played without miniatures, tokens, mats, etc., is horseshit. I've done it. I wouldn't do it frequently and it wasn't as easy as playing with minis and a mat, but we did it without changing anything.

Seanchai

If it wasn't as easy, you changed something.

Quote from: Seanchai;370734"This new red box is nothing like the old red box.

Are you guys just being willfully ignorant?

The old red box:

"THIS GAME REQUIRES NO GAMEBOARD BECAUSE THE ACTION TAKES PLACE IN THE PLAYER'S IMAGINATION . . ."

The new red box:

The game requires a square-grid map, and miniatures/tokens/etc. (all included).

Come on guys; these are two totally different games. One is boardgame; the other is not.

The old D&D was a revolutionary new hobby, unlike any other game (no gameboard! everything in the mind's eye!).

The new D&D, 4e, is just a board game, a tactical miniatures board wargame of fantasy superheroes.

I love the old D&D - in a class of its own. I wouldn't touch this new miniatures boardgame, this so-called D&D.

This new red box will be a failure just like all the other basic sets that Wizards has released.

When Wizards finally realizes what it was that made D&D such a huge success (i.e. a game played totally in the imagination, requiring only the imagination), then they will be able to recapture some of what was lost. It may be too late, though. The last decade of D&D has been all square-grid, and it keeps getting worse.

Wizards releases crap like tiles and miniatures. THAT'S DEFEATING THE WHOLE POINT! We don't want our imaginations to be limited by what others have produced (i.e. tiles that say "this is what the dungeon looks like", or miniatures that say "this is what your guy looks like").

Wizards just doesn't understand what it is that separates the RPG from other games.

Gary gave the "gift of endless imagination". Hard to have endless imagination when you are constrained by limited tiles, miniatures, etc."

Seanchai

Read carefully. AD&D allows both playstyles -- minis and no minis; 4e does not.

So, you could say that AD&D was a paradise where mini-lovers and mini-haters could all do their own thing.

Quote from: Seanchai;370739Given that areola's statement concerns the players, not the system, it's hardly false.

But the idea that 4e can't be played without miniatures, tokens, mats, etc., is horseshit. I've done it. I wouldn't do it frequently and it wasn't as easy as playing with minis and a mat, but we did it without changing anything.

Seanchai

I call bullshit on this. 4e RAW with no physical representation -- Bullshit.

Unless you were all sitting around in a tavern, or some other such scenario.

But standard 4e adventure combat encounters RAW with no physical representation. Not gonna buy that.

Quote from: 1989;370806I call bullshit on this. 4e RAW with no physical representation -- Bullshit.

Unless you were all sitting around in a tavern, or some other such scenario.

But standard 4e adventure combat encounters RAW with no physical representation. Not gonna buy that.

I call BS on this. I think you are gonna buy it. I have no reason to believe you're lying, but I'm going to assume you're lying anyway.

Quote from: Fifth Element;370816I think you are gonna buy it.

lol!

Quote from: Seanchai;370734Are you guys just being willfully ignorant?

Are you a retard?

Do you understand the difference between:

1/ "AD&D is intended as a minis-free paradise"
and
2/ "AD&D can be played with or without miniatures" (whereas 4e's rules imply the use of miniatures)

Well? Do you? :rolleyes:

Quote from: Seanchai;370734"This new red box is nothing like the old red box.

You are aware that the "old red box" is Mentzer D&D, which is not the same thing as "Advanced D&D", right? Either we compare AD&D and 4e, or Mentzer D&D with 4e, but comparing any and all pre-2000 editions of the game with 4e just leads to a multitude of misunderstandings and silly arguments (like quoting EGG talking about the use of minis in AD&D when in fact comparing the two Red Boxes, aka Mentzer D&D and 4e).

So... which games are we comparing, exactly?

Quote from: Benoist;370832Are you a retard?

Do you understand the difference between:

1/ "AD&D is intended as a minis-free paradise"
and
2/ "AD&D can be played with or without miniatures" (whereas 4e's rules imply the use of miniatures)

Well? Do you? :rolleyes:


You are aware that the "old red box" is Mentzer D&D, which is not the same thing as "Advanced D&D", right? Either we compare AD&D and 4e, or Mentzer D&D with 4e, but comparing any and all pre-2000 editions of the game with 4e just leads to a multitude of misunderstandings and silly arguments (like quoting EGG talking about the use of minis in AD&D when in fact comparing the two Red Boxes, aka Mentzer D&D and 4e).

So... which games are we comparing, exactly?

I didn't say anything you quoted in your post. That was 1989.

Seanchai

Quote from: 1989;370806I call bullshit on this. 4e RAW with no physical representation -- Bullshit.

Unless you were all sitting around in a tavern, or some other such scenario.

But standard 4e adventure combat encounters RAW with no physical representation. Not gonna buy that.

Nope. It was a battle - the group freeing slaves. One group ran off the map (it was being used mostly for the fight which was set up to distract the bad guys).

A player asked, "Shall we set up another mat?"

I said, "Nope."

He said, "How far away from the slavers am I?"

I said, "Narrative distance. How far do you want to be?"

He said, "I need to be within 10 squares of him to use my Power. I don't want him to be able to use a standard move to get to me."

I said,"Okay, so about nine squares away."

And then we proceeded from there.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;370956Nope. It was a battle - the group freeing slaves. One group ran off the map (it was being used mostly for the fight which was set up to distract the bad guys).

A player asked, "Shall we set up another mat?"

I thought you said you weren't using any of that.