Quote from: RPGPunditCall of Cthulhu wasn't like any of those. It was an already existing RPG that was already wildly popular, and the main book turned out to be a brilliantly-designed book that was already wildly successful.  The least bit of effort on chaosium's part would have guaranteed profits.

I'm not convinced that there's a risk-free fortune to be made publishing RPG adventures for any game, whether that's D&D, Vampire: The Masquerade, or whatever.  Maybe you've got some unique RPG wisdom, but from everything that I've heard from industry people, published adventures are part of the "supplement treadmill".  They don't really make you much profit, but they keep your game line alive.  

From what I've seen, Chaosium has trouble keeping up with the treadmill for their own "wildly popular" RPG.  Remember that any time taken out to do D20 products (which feeds the sales of Wizards' core book) is time taken away from doing projects which feed the sales of their own core book.

Quote from: RPGPunditCall of Cthulhu wasn't like any of those. It was an already existing RPG that was already wildly popular, and the main book turned out to be a brilliantly-designed book that was already wildly successful.

You know, Pundit, I'd really like to see some figures about CoC popularity. I'm a big CoC fan too, it's the only game I GMed more than D&D, but I can't help thinking CoC is well past its success years. The vibe I'm getting in France, tough I admit I've got no more hard data than you have, is that a majority of gamers have heard about it, but only old hands like you and me are still running it.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe least bit of effort on chaosium's part would have guaranteed profits.

I kinda agree with this. The only thing they had to do was to come up with one single damn new idea. I despaired when I realised they only intended to reissue existing material with dual stats. [/Rant] Shit, I wasn't asking for another Delta Green, but how did they not understand they had to release something actually new and at least a bit exciting to revive the market ?! Maybe the Pulp Cthulhu book would have been enough. CoC is a game where system truly doesn't matter, as long as you don't touch SAN. There is no significant gameplay difference between BRP and d20, despite BRP die-hards claims : changing the system alone wasn't going to accomplish much.[/Rant]

Quote from: RPGPunditYou know, the not-yet-existing fans? The ones you desperately want to gain?
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Sometimes, I wonder if they're actually looking for new fans. Most of their releases seem to be geared towards the existing community. Not that I care, since I'm not likely to buy anything not dual statted.

New Delta Green is on its way

Quote from: ImperatorNew Delta Green is on its way

Is that so ? Hasn't it been on its way for a long time now ?

Quote from: WeeklyIs that so ? Hasn't it been on its way for a long time now ?

Just like Pulp Cthulhu, which was originally going to be dual stats.  Quite a few people seemed psyched about it years ago.  If they could have put it out within 6 months of CoC D20, it probably would have sold well.

Here's what I found on it:
August 28, 2006 update: Most of this book has now been written. Art direction has not yet  begun. We hope to release PC Winter 2007.

Quote from: NicephorusJust like Pulp Cthulhu, which was originally going to be dual stats.  Quite a few people seemed psyched about it years ago.  If they could have put it out within 6 months of CoC D20, it probably would have sold well.

Pulp Cthulhu-that-was : the last best hope for CoC. It failed. And didn't become something greater...

Bitter ? Me ?! Not the least...

Quote from: jhkimI'm not convinced that there's a risk-free fortune to be made publishing RPG adventures for any game, whether that's D&D, Vampire: The Masquerade, or whatever.  Maybe you've got some unique RPG wisdom, but from everything that I've heard from industry people, published adventures are part of the "supplement treadmill".  They don't really make you much profit, but they keep your game line alive.  

I'm fairly convinced that D20 CoC would have been big profits.

But it didn't really have to be "big profits" to be a smart business move; it just had to be MORE profit than doing exactly the same thing with BRP CoC.

QuoteFrom what I've seen, Chaosium has trouble keeping up with the treadmill for their own "wildly popular" RPG.  Remember that any time taken out to do D20 products (which feeds the sales of Wizards' core book) is time taken away from doing projects which feed the sales of their own core book.

Yes, and profits from producing the oh-so-despised D20 books would have given them a buffer zone to allow them to publish their oh-so-superior regular books with security.

RPGPundit

re: the DG reprint...

it's printed, the boxes have been ordered and shipped (from China iirc), but are apparently still in-transit.  

most d20 fans should even be excited that d20 CoC was EVER in print, if only for the fact that there was/will be occasional releases with dual-stats.
(even though it reminds me of N*SYNC covering a "Pink Floyd" song...)


-k

Quote from: NicephorusJust like Pulp Cthulhu, which was originally going to be dual stats.  Quite a few people seemed psyched about it years ago.  If they could have put it out within 6 months of CoC D20, it probably would have sold well.

Here's what I found on it:
August 28, 2006 update: Most of this book has now been written. Art direction has not yet  begun. We hope to release PC Winter 2007.

Yeah, the original dual-statted book was one I was really chomping at the bit for.

Big, big example of them dropping the ball and not using the popularity of the d20 book to drive sales.

Quote from: WeeklyYou know, Pundit, I'd really like to see some figures about CoC popularity. I'm a big CoC fan too, it's the only game I GMed more than D&D, but I can't help thinking CoC is well past its success years. The vibe I'm getting in France, tough I admit I've got no more hard data than you have, is that a majority of gamers have heard about it, but only old hands like you and me are still running it.

From the 1999 Wizards of the Coast Adventure Game Survey...  When asked what games TRPG players play monthly, the answers (multiple choices allowed) were:
  D&D: 66%  
  Vampire: The Masquerade: 25%  
  Star Wars: 21%
  Palladium: 16%
  Werewolf: The Apocalypse: 15%  
  Shadowrun: 15%
  Star Trek: 12%  
  Call of Cthulu: 8%  
  Legend of the Five Rings: 8%  
  Deadlands: 5%  
  Alternity: 4%
  GURPS: 3%

So at the time it was still pretty widely played (i.e. out of all roleplayers, 1 out of 12 played CoC monthly).  Things might have changed since then, but that is 18 years after it was published, so I don't think it was a fad.  

Quote from: WeeklyI despaired when I realised they only intended to reissue existing material with dual stats. [ Rant ] Shit, I wasn't asking for another Delta Green, but how did they not understand they had to release something actually new and at least a bit exciting to revive the market ?! Maybe the Pulp Cthulhu book would have been enough. CoC is a game where system truly doesn't matter, as long as you don't touch SAN. There is no significant gameplay difference between BRP and d20, despite BRP die-hards claims : changing the system alone wasn't going to accomplish much.[ /Rant ]

Er, the existing material was good, proven material -- and it would be going to primarily new D20 players rather than existing BRP CoC players, so there's no problem with releasing "old" stuff since the D20 players mainly haven't seen it before.  I've seen two surveys of CoC players, and for both the number preferring the D20 was only around 10-15%.

Quote from: Sojourner JudasBig, big example of them dropping the ball and not using the popularity of the d20 book to drive sales.

Is this the point at which I should remind everyone of Dragon Lords of Melniboné?

It was honestly hard for me to broach that topic, but I think it goes a long way toward supporting my contention that Chaosium was philosophically at odds with printing D20 books.  It simply wasn't what they did* and their heart plainly wasn't in it.

!i!

(*No, don't go pointing out the excellent multi-statted Thieves' World supplements.  That was another time and another world.)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIs this the point at which I should remind everyone of Dragon Lords of Melniboné?

It was honestly hard for me to broach that topic, but I think it goes a long way toward supporting my contention that Chaosium was philosophically at odds with printing D20 books.  It simply wasn't what they did* and their heart plainly wasn't in it.

I try not to count that one against them, because it came out extremely early on, and at around that point a good 90% of d20 products sucked from the sheer fact that nobody had the knack of it yet.

Quote from: Sojourner JudasI try not to count that one against them, because it came out extremely early on, and at around that point a good 90% of d20 products sucked from the sheer fact that nobody had the knack of it yet.

Come on, they didn't even try. Dragonlords was basically a bad cut-and-paste job. The lack of quality had nothing to do with the fact that D20 was new. If they tried to make a new edition and failed on the mechanics, okay. But if you take 90% of an existing book and add some half-assed D20 notes, it shows that you're mostly trying to make some cash with the least amount of work neccesary.

Quote from: SosthenesCome on, they didn't even try. Dragonlords was basically a bad cut-and-paste job.

Sadly, it was, and I'm not convinced they would have done differently with the CoC line, considering they were sitting on a library of similarly convertable material.

QuoteBut if you take 90% of an existing book and add some half-assed D20 notes, it shows that you're mostly trying to make some cash with the least amount of work neccesary.

I'll play the apologist for Chaosium, and suggest that what they were trying to do was make some cash while spending the least amount of money to produce it.  Long story short, I think they fell short of the manpower, the capital, and the drive to catch a ride on the D20 crazy-train.

!i!

Considering that Chaosium has survived for the last ten+ years by reprinting the same set of rules over and over again with virtually no change and calling it a "new edition", you could have something of a point there.

The difference is that the core CoC D20 book was excellent; we aren't talking theoretics here, we're talking something that already actually existed, and was a work of beauty.
After that, it would have been relatively simple and acceptable for them, for starters, to make a shitload of money presenting D20 CoC re-issues of some of their most classic campaigns.  Imagine how glorious D20 Masks Of Nyarlathotep could have been?

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