Quote from: WeeklyConcerning d20 CoC, I'd say its 'failure' is due primarily to CoC being a niche market and d20 CoC not offering enough incentive to make the switch to BRP players. I made it, but  I was already dissatisfied with BRP, particulary with the way it handled action scenes.  This said, from what I read at the time on various French boards, there was also a sizable minority of CoC players who had made 'I'm not a D&D player' a big part of their identity and reacted quite badly to the idea of the new CoC using D&D's system.

No, you have to understand: D20 CoC wasn't an economic failure.  It was discontinued for reasons that had nothing to do with business.

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Quote from: RPGPunditNo, you have to understand: D20 CoC wasn't an economic failure.  It was discontinued for reasons that had nothing to do with business.

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Sources?  

Being a long-time BRP CoC fan, and d20 CoC book owner, i've always wondered what the deal was.  IIRC, the only thing that ever came out was the core book and GM Screen.  (and supposedly the new Delta Green printing will be dual-stated for BRP/d20)


-k

Quote from: kregmosierSources?  

Being a long-time BRP CoC fan, and d20 CoC book owner, i've always wondered what the deal was.  IIRC, the only thing that ever came out was the core book and GM Screen.  (and supposedly the new Delta Green printing will be dual-stated for BRP/d20)


-k

No, as mentioned earlier in the thread, there were 3 (at least) dual-statted products released.

There was also the sole D20 CoC campaign book, "Nocturnum".

Anyways, I don't go around hording all my sources. You'll have to take my word for it.

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It was Chaosium that dropped the ball on d20 CoC supplements, if I remember. WotC just made the corebook and let 'em run with it, not unlike the Dragonlance situation.

Quote from: Sojourner JudasIt was Chaosium that dropped the ball on d20 CoC supplements, if I remember. WotC just made the corebook and let 'em run with it, not unlike the Dragonlance situation.

Well, if neither Wizards nor Chaosium put out supplements, I'd say they both dropped the ball.  Wizards dropped the ball and put it on Chaosium, which has a lot less resources.  

As far as I can tell, the core rulebook was a very uneasy joint venture which neither side was much invested in.  They wrote their parts (rules and background) independently, then stitched it together.  Wizards was just testing the waters for branch-off D20 games (like Wheel of Time), and never intended to support it.  Chaosium just wanted some more publicity for Call of Cthulhu via the WotC machine.

Quote from: jhkimWell, if neither Wizards nor Chaosium put out supplements, I'd say they both dropped the ball.  Wizards dropped the ball and put it on Chaosium, which has a lot less resources.

The contract didn't allow WOTC to produce support products; that was Chaosium's job.

QuoteAs far as I can tell, the core rulebook was a very uneasy joint venture which neither side was much invested in.  They wrote their parts (rules and background) independently, then stitched it together.  Wizards was just testing the waters for branch-off D20 games (like Wheel of Time), and never intended to support it.  Chaosium just wanted some more publicity for Call of Cthulhu via the WotC machine.

WOTC handed Chaosium a license to print money--something they still need in desperate quantities--and for reasons having to do with petty politics Chaosium shat on it.  Even the reasonable detractors of d20 at the time knew this to be a stupid idea.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWOTC handed Chaosium a license to print money--something they still need in desperate quantities--and for reasons having to do with petty politics Chaosium shat on it.  Even the reasonable detractors of d20 at the time knew this to be a stupid idea.

The D20 craze was a philosophical disconnect for Chaosium, and an odd fit for their flagship game.  Frankly, Chaosium wasn't the company to capitalise on an opportunity that had the appearance of selling out on their in-house design.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe D20 craze was a philosophical disconnect for Chaosium, and an odd fit for their flagship game.  Frankly, Chaosium wasn't the company to capitalise on an opportunity that had the appearance of selling out on their in-house design.

I'd really say that the d20 version was one of the better-done conversions I've really seen. Nicely written, painstakingly put together, and keeping the best aspects of the original.

Is it bad of me that the d20 games I've liked best were licensed WotC one-shots that never went anywhere because of the restrictiveness of the license they were under? Between this and Wheel of Time I see some of WotC's finest gamecraft. Heck, I could even put the Dragonlance corebook under that, because damned if Sovereign Press can seem to do much with the license that even remotely interests me. That mystifies me, considering they're a company started by the setting's creators.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe D20 craze was a philosophical disconnect for Chaosium, and an odd fit for their flagship game.  Frankly, Chaosium wasn't the company to capitalise on an opportunity that had the appearance of selling out on their in-house design.

!i!

Kenny: What's a sell out?
Cartman: Anyone who makes any money in the entertainment industry.

Well, they mustn't do anything that might make Chaosium stable and profitable.  Why, if they had to run it like real company that might cut into their yog-sothoth.com time!

I can't understand it.  They made a great, great game that has been a favorite for decades.  They followed it up with intermittent releases of the best supplements the genre's ever seen.  

How can you fuck that up?

Just ask them.

C'mon Chaosium, finish going tits up.  Please?  Maybe then the German licensee will take over and we'll see what would happen if CoC was put out by a company instead of Fatbeards Anonymous.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThe contract didn't allow WOTC to produce support products; that was Chaosium's job.

That's a license which both of them negotiated.  I am highly doubtful that the 300-pound gorilla of Wizards was at a disadvantage in the negotiation.  I also think Wizards wouldn't want to make support products, because of the well-known principle (a la Ryan Dancy) that the majority of RPG profits come from the core book -- while adventures are a lot of work for little direct gain that simply feeds sales of the core book.  

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWOTC handed Chaosium a license to print money--something they still need in desperate quantities--and for reasons having to do with petty politics Chaosium shat on it.  Even the reasonable detractors of d20 at the time knew this to be a stupid idea.

The idea that making a D20 version of your game is a "license to print money" is bullshit.  The market is seen tons of D20 games, including many popular licenses like Wheel of Time, Stargate, Farscape, EverQuest, World of Warcraft, etc.  A few of them -- like Conan -- have been successful.  However, it's by no means a sure thing.  

From two surveys I've seen, the D20 version of Cthulhu was not typically preferred by existing CoC fans.  So there's no particular leverage there.  That makes  it just another in the list of D20 licensed games to the general D20 market -- and further one which would likely compete with Chaosium's own Call of Cthulhu core book.

Quote from: jhkimFrom two surveys I've seen, the D20 version of Cthulhu was not typically preferred by existing CoC fans.  So there's no particular leverage there.

Existing CoC fans often have the same sort of attitude I attribute to existing Palladium fans. Sort of a battered spouse syndrome that comes from a company that steadfastly refuses to bring their ruleset into the modern gaming market and up their production values beyond what was popular in the 70's and 80's.

And I say that as a person who owns an assload of Chaosium stuff.

Quote from: jhkimWell, if neither Wizards nor Chaosium put out supplements, I'd say they both dropped the ball.  Wizards dropped the ball and put it on Chaosium, which has a lot less resources.  

As far as I can tell, the core rulebook was a very uneasy joint venture which neither side was much invested in.  They wrote their parts (rules and background) independently, then stitched it together.  Wizards was just testing the waters for branch-off D20 games (like Wheel of Time), and never intended to support it.  Chaosium just wanted some more publicity for Call of Cthulhu via the WotC machine.

Wizards wasn't ALLOWED to produce material for it. That was part of the deal.

It was Chaosium's decision, Chaosium dropped the ball; Chaosium took a money-printing machine and shat on it for ideological reasons.

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Quote from: jhkimThat's a license which both of them negotiated.  I am highly doubtful that the 300-pound gorilla of Wizards was at a disadvantage in the negotiation.  I also think Wizards wouldn't want to make support products, because of the well-known principle (a la Ryan Dancy) that the majority of RPG profits come from the core book -- while adventures are a lot of work for little direct gain that simply feeds sales of the core book.  

Sure, fine. Wizards probably readily agreed to the contract which stipulated they couldn't put out supplements, because it wasn't their plan to put out supplements in the first place. It still means that it was ENTIRELY Chaosium's fortune to easily generate or stupidly walk away from, and they chose the latter.

QuoteThe idea that making a D20 version of your game is a "license to print money" is bullshit.  The market is seen tons of D20 games, including many popular licenses like Wheel of Time, Stargate, Farscape, EverQuest, World of Warcraft, etc.  A few of them -- like Conan -- have been successful.  However, it's by no means a sure thing.  

Call of Cthulhu wasn't like any of those. It was an already existing RPG that was already wildly popular, and the main book turned out to be a brilliantly-designed book that was already wildly successful.  The least bit of effort on chaosium's part would have guaranteed profits.

QuoteFrom two surveys I've seen, the D20 version of Cthulhu was not typically preferred by existing CoC fans.  So there's no particular leverage there.  That makes  it just another in the list of D20 licensed games to the general D20 market -- and further one which would likely compete with Chaosium's own Call of Cthulhu core book.

No, it wouldn't. You just said it: the majority of EXISTING CoC fans didn't prefer it. There was no chance BRP was going to go tits up if D20 CoC existed. Shit, most of the "existing CoC fans" (ie. drooling cthulhu fanatics like me) would have bought the D20 books even if it wasn't the system they "preferred" just because it was CoC material anyways.
And what they WOULD have gained is all the D20 fans, most of whom dig Cthulhu but didn't want to play BRP.
You know, the not-yet-existing fans? The ones you desperately want to gain?

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