Agility/dexterity type stats too strong in modern/sci-fi games?

jhkim · December 15, 2014, 04:27:04 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;804617It may be foolish to consider physical toughness or strength a viable dump stat in sci-fi games. (....) While technology can be used to mitigate these examples, it will not eliminate them, especially since technology can always break down.

I don't think the idea is that strength is never useful in sci-fi, but that strength is less useful in a typical sci-fi game (like Star Wars or Star Trek) than in a typical fantasy game (like Conan or Tolkien).

Then again, in any game, some stats and/or skills are going to be less useful than others. Personally, I think should be fine to have a game where strength is less useful and charisma is critically useful, or a game where strength is critically useful. I shouldn't have to tailor the action of the game to reflect the system. Instead, if strength is going to be less useful, then it should simply be adjusted cost less, in my opinion.

RunningLaser · December 15, 2014, 04:38:43 PM

Bob Munden can draw a colt saa fast as lightning. That's speed and dexterity right there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGl8ocDWggM

However, while his hands are fast, I don't see him leaping across ship chasms, dual wielding laser swords, ect. Mosey down a loading platform, sure.

James Gillen · December 15, 2014, 08:12:45 PM

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;803951Is fusing strength and toughness a solution?

I do find it odd that people can't accept agility and whole-body coordination as the same stat but are willing to blend stamina and muscle power.

JG

JonWake · December 15, 2014, 08:27:18 PM

In my current project, I fused Agility and Endurance into the general term Fitness. It works out and is good enough for the vast majority of uses-- mainly because any task that requires good Agility (that is, the ability to rapidly accelerate and decelerate your body) also requires good Endurance (or you start making mistakes and there goes your Agility.)

This lets Dexterity take the reigns as fine motor control and reaction speed, and Intelligence take over for the ability to predict objects in motion (and thus give the damage bonus to ranged attacks). I'm a few weeks out from playtesting, so we'll see if it works out.

Kyle Aaron · December 15, 2014, 08:29:39 PM

Quote from: RunningLaser;804657Bob Munden can draw a colt saa fast as lightning. That's speed and dexterity right there. [...]

However, while his hands are fast, I don't see him leaping across ship chasms, dual wielding laser swords, ect. Mosey down a loading platform, sure.

A practiced skill is not the same as an innate talent. This is why we get systems where it's Attribute + Skill + dice roll. The range of the possible attribute numbers vs the range of the possible skill numbers will decide whether attributes or skills are more important in the game.

Shawn Driscoll · December 15, 2014, 08:38:23 PM

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;803779Having perused a number of modern/sci-fi games and people's discussions of them, I've started to wonder if the inclusion of a broadly defined agility or dexterity type stat is a questionable design choice. Such a stat often covers gun accuracy, speed, initiative, moving through difficult terrain and a host of useful skills, which makes other stat choices look bad. Of course this is just my impression at the moment.

What have your experiences with agi/dex stats in such games been like?

It comes down to how players narrate what their characters are doing. If they talk in concrete terms, then brute strength or dexterity will be focused on more.

Phillip · December 18, 2014, 02:02:58 PM

Manual and athletic coordination seem to me rather less important in a more technologically advanced context than in a more primitive one! Machinery's precision increasingly takes over, common tools eventually surpassing the native adroitness of any human.

A parallel development is weapons that rely not on precision but on relatively indiscriminate destruction (machineguns, explosive shells, etc.).

Intelligence and social acumen are more likely to be the key aptitudes for characters of the sort usual in adventure games.

Phillip · December 18, 2014, 02:14:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim;804656I don't think the idea is that strength is never useful in sci-fi, but that strength is less useful in a typical sci-fi game (like Star Wars or Star Trek) than in a typical fantasy game (like Conan or Tolkien).

Traveller the New Era may be atypical, but as I recall Strength in it is a prime attribute for infantrymen: both the attribute applicable to firearm skills and the one governing ability to handle recoil.

I think it also applies to a number of athletic skills, and combines with Endurance in determining wound severity.

Attributes do weigh very significantly in that system - but training, equipment and tactics ultimately count for more.

QuoteThen again, in any game, some stats and/or skills are going to be less useful than others. Personally, I think should be fine to have a game where strength is less useful and charisma is critically useful, or a game where strength is critically useful. I shouldn't have to tailor the action of the game to reflect the system. Instead, if strength is going to be less useful, then it should simply be adjusted cost less, in my opinion.

jan paparazzi · December 18, 2014, 02:44:25 PM

I am most familiar with new WoD. In that game you use your dexterity (combined with wits) for defense and for gunbased attacks in combination with the firearms skill. If you take the weapon finesse merit you can also use dexterity in combination with the weaponry skill. So yes, in that game dex is overpowered as well.