TheRPGSite

To me, those would be Bruce Baugh and Rebecca Borgstrom.

RPGPundit

Monte Cook

Quote from: RPGPunditTo me, those would be Bruce Baugh and Rebecca Borgstrom.

RPGPundit

Baught yes, overrated

Borgstrom, not sure. She did write Exalted & Nobilis. I don't like either of them but they are both well liked and Exalted has a large following.

Well, I can state the loudest and fullest of themselves without much reason to be.

John Wick
Gareth Michael Skarka

Quote from: GabrielWell, I can state the loudest and fullest of themselves without much reason to be.

John Wick
Gareth Michael Skarka

Skarka has a lot opinions and not much to show for it.

Before I was banned for the umpeenth time without any particular reason from the SJG forums, I once asked why people made all the gurps rules queries out to sean punch instead of steve jackson.

The general reply was that punch knew the gurps system, having written it mostly while jackson hadn't don't much for the new edition, being too busy being the 'EIC" for SJG.
 
G4e was mostly written by sean punch and dave pulver, but jackson's name came on first in the credits.

Is that being overrated?

Me, and I don't even *have* a rating!

-mice

I've missed out on a  lot of the Skarka drama, but he doesn't come across as the sort of person I want to buy stuff from, just from his attitude and ego.

But for me personally, I just don't get the hype surrounding Borgstrom.  If you write an RPG, your intent (flowery, non-sequitur prose aside) should be to make the system clearer, not buried under the weight of your own writing.

Another vote for Borgstrom here. I mean is it really considered a sign of talent to make rules more difficult by burying them in over elaborate prose?

Does anyone have any links to the drama in question?  I've never even considered the people behind the rules I use (except for E. Gary Gygax, obv) and I find the concept of "rpg personalities" pretty novel.

Man, am I a newbie or what?  :)

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI've missed out on a  lot of the Skarka drama, but he doesn't come across as the sort of person I want to buy stuff from, just from his attitude and ego.

But for me personally, I just don't get the hype surrounding Borgstrom.  If you write an RPG, your intent (flowery, non-sequitur prose aside) should be to make the system clearer, not buried under the weight of your own writing.

I know some people disagree (not on this forum but rpg.net) but I fully believe in "Speaking With Your Wallet" and GMS is one person that I refuse to buy anything from because of his attitude and ego.

And because it needs to be repeated and in Bold:

Quote from: McrowSkarka has a lot opinions and not much to show for it.

GMS is a must list.
Mark Rein*Hagen  needs to be there for starting the whole White Wolf thing.


I'll put Ron Edwards up there too, although to be honest he really isn't significant enough.

Quote from: gleichmanGMS is a must list.
Mark Rein*Hagen  needs to be there for starting the whole White Wolf thing.


I'll put Ron Edwards up there too, although to be honest he really isn't significant enough.

Well, he is overrated.

GMS isn't that big an industry figure is he?  He's mainly known for being an arrogant prick on discussion forums.

Quote from: JamesVAnother vote for Borgstrom here. I mean is it really considered a sign of talent to make rules more difficult by burying them in over elaborate prose?

I'd say that RSB has earned her fame for conceptual design and inspirational imagery more than anything else. Also, I've never understood the complaint that the rules of Nob are somehow lost in the fiction; if anything, I wondered why, say, the basic mechanics of the miracle system were repeated so many times, in each section on the different miracle types.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalGMS isn't that big an industry figure is he?  He's mainly known for being an arrogant prick on discussion forums.

Nah, he's a small fish, thus over rated.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, he is overrated.

Yep, you're right. Move Edwards to the top of my list.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalGMS isn't that big an industry figure is he?  He's mainly known for being an arrogant prick on discussion forums.

He likes to think he is. To be honest he is a guy I would like about 100 times more if he would just keep his yap shut. I think he's come up with some interesting ideas for some good niche gaming. Heroes of the New Wave for 80s pulp and Apollyon Noir's black magic meets the Napoleonic era were fuckin' keen. Then he not only passes on those fun ideas, but proceeds to open his mouth :footinmouth:.

It's depressing.

Monte Cook.

I can at least feel something toward Borgstrom, Wick or Edwards' work.

Cook just churns out so much stuff and so little of it is interesting in any way. If he wasn't too young, I'd almost suspect he was the reincarnation of Isaac Asimov. :)

Oh, I want to add Steve Long to my list.

Am I just limited to two?

Quote from: gleichmanOh, I want to add Steve Long to my list.

Why so?  I utterly and completely disagree, but am curious as to why he belongs on your list.

Rebecca Borgstrom wrote some good stuff, but in my opinion she's hugely overrated.  Whenever I hear certain people talk about her work, I can't help but think about this comic strip. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/05/27)

Quote from: hgjsRebecca Borgstrom wrote some good stuff, but in my opinion she's hugely overrated.  Whenever I hear certain people talk about her work, I can't help but think about this comic strip. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/05/27)

Brilliant, and true.

RPGPundit

Quote from: GabrielWhy so?  I utterly and completely disagree, but am curious as to why he belongs on your list.

What good work he does on HERO System is little more than that of a editor. In that role, he did good things by combining nearly all the rules into a single book (although even here there were significant failures).

Meanwhile what changes he does bring to the system are more often than not... what's a good word... terrible. Poorly thoughtly out at best, damaging to game balance and genre at worst. I've had to go and row back many of his efforts with house rules to have a playable game. That was painful because previous the only changes I had to make to HERO was in Construction Style and the Strength Progression.

Other than Ultimate Martial Artists (mostly another editing job), everything he's written after the core book has been useless to me. A complete waste of money and I've stopped buying HERO System products as result.

Very overrated.

In fact in impact on me, Long should be at the top of my list even over Edwards. I can't believe I forgot him when I made the post.

Quote from: JamesVHe likes to think he is. To be honest he is a guy I would like about 100 times more if he would just keep his yap shut. I think he's come up with some interesting ideas for some good niche gaming. Heroes of the New Wave for 80s pulp and Apollyon Noir's black magic meets the Napoleonic era were fuckin' keen. Then he not only passes on those fun ideas, but proceeds to open his mouth :footinmouth:.

  I always imagine him as being like one of those American wrestlers.  Probnably sitting at his computer with his shirt off with long flowing hair being INCREDIBLY intense, intimidating and ANGRY online the whole time.

  He's got an imagination on him but Jesus does he need to chill out.

  I'll never really hate him though simply because of the fantastic way he waltzed out of The Forge.  "Enjoy your little cult.  Remember to try the Koolaid".


  I think that "Big" Ron Edwards is in a similar league to GMS.  He's well known for being on online forums but as an actual designer he's a small fry.  He's not even the most well known, talented or respected designer on his own Forum.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI'll never really hate him though simply because of the fantastic way he waltzed out of The Forge.  "Enjoy your little cult.  Remember to try the Koolaid".

This one:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=11288.msg121117#msg121117


Very nice in a number of ways.

MJ hit the nail on the head original insult to GMS, and GMS caught the Forge at its hypocritical best.

I'd forgotten how spectacular that thread is.

I love MJ say how a lot of moderation goes on behind the scenes.  If Ron had said that then fair enough but the offending poster saying it himself makes the whole thing seem like a renaissance court or a gentleman's club.

"It wouldn't do for Ron to dress me down in public but I can assure you that I will be the target of a few cutting remarks tonight in the library over cognac and mutual masturbation"

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI think that "Big" Ron Edwards is in a similar league to GMS.  He's well known for being on online forums but as an actual designer he's a small fry.  He's not even the most well known, talented or respected designer on his own Forum.

Is that what he's famous for? His own forum? Does he post much outside it, if at all? Is he just a lightning rod because of how he runs the forum and how he tends to split the same hair a dozen times? :(

P.S.  You know, with RPGPundit starting up his own printing press messageboard, and with tones of self promotion that rivals Steve Jackson putting his name at the top of the credits of a product he largely didn't work on, I really think he's earned inclusion in the discussion. Not saying top spot nessasarily. Because IMO I see someone needing to have high rating to be overrated (sorry flyingmice :( ;) ) and because there are times I appreciate his pure entertainment value (like the Kool-aid send-off thread).

You know, when you consider their similarities, their penchant for ranting and bloviating, their sharply expressed opinions, one can only conclude that RPGPundit and Gareth Michael Skarka are both Don Rickles sock puppets.

Quote from: mythusmageYou know, when you consider their similarities, their penchant for ranting and bloviating, their sharply expressed opinions, one can only conclude that RPGPundit and Gareth Michael Skarka are both Don Rickles sock puppets.

There are many similarities between GMS and RPGPundit. ;)

They wear different coloured shirts though.

Quote from: One Horse TownThey wear different coloured shirts though.

That's photo-manipulation at its finest!  :)  It's like Michael and LaToya Jackson: you never see them together and it's enough to make you wonder.  ;)

Quote from: gleichmanMark Rein*Hagen  needs to be there for starting the whole White Wolf thing.

Overrated doesn't mean "designed a game I don't like."  Nor does it mean "pretentious."  I have no opinion on him either way but calling the man who created one of the most commercially successful RPGs of all time "overrated" shows a lack of perspective.  I think his status in the industry (which nowadays isn't all that elevated anyways... it isn't 1994 anymore) is entirely commensurate with his contributions to it, unlike GMS or Ron Edwards.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old SchoolNor does it mean "pretentious."  

I don't know. It could mean "pretentious."  ;)

Quote from: King of Old SchoolOverrated doesn't mean "designed a game I don't like."  Nor does it mean "pretentious."

Popularity itself is overrated and is no protection.

Quote from: VellorianThere are many similarities between GMS and RPGPundit. ;)

Wow...

I could almost be convinced of this...

Quote from: gleichmanWhat good work he does on HERO System is little more than that of a editor. In that role, he did good things by combining nearly all the rules into a single book (although even here there were significant failures).

-SNIP-

In fact in impact on me, Long should be at the top of my list even over Edwards. I can't believe I forgot him when I made the post.

Good rant man! I suspect that your rage is less 'Steve Long is overrated' than it is 'Steve Long screwed over the HERO system'. No matter- I empathise with your pain. ;)

Quote from: gleichmanThis one:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=11288.msg121117#msg121117

Just read that thread.

Ugh.

:combust:

Quote from: gleichmanPopularity itself is overrated and is no protection.

You know, I'm thinking Gary Gygax at times borders on the top 10. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a colourful old coot and "pretentious" is not the word that springs to mind at all. But still...well I think he gets a more rating than his fair share.

P.S. For those that didn't know of ENWorld, you likely also didn't know that for coming on 6 years he's posted there.  Almost exclusively in the series of Ask Col. Playdoh threads (he uses the handle 'Col. Playdoh').

Quote from: JMcL63Good rant man! I suspect that your rage is less 'Steve Long is overrated' than it is 'Steve Long screwed over the HERO system'. No matter- I empathise with your pain. ;)

Hey! He screwed over the greatest published game system of all time and some people think he's the sow's ears!

I call that overrated :hissyfit:

Hmm... you may have a point.

"The sow's ears"?  Are those like the dog's bollocks?

Quote from: Mr. Analytical"The sow's ears"?  Are those like the dog's bollocks?

And "chicken lips."  Never forget "chicken lips."

Yum!  :D

Quote from: Mr. Analytical"The sow's ears"?  Are those like the dog's bollocks?

Sow's ears, as in something fools think you can get silk from from...

Ok, it wasn't the best choice of wording, but I was having a hissyfit ok?

Oh yes, I see.

I thought it was some weird local expression from wherever it is you're from.  In London "Dog's bollocks" or "Mutt's nuts" generally means something is fantastic, like "The cat's pyjamas"

Over-rated game designers are those who extol their own importance and genius.

If a game designer's reputation comes from those who enjoy their games, they aren't over-rated.

-Stuart

Quote from: gleichmanPopularity itself is overrated and is no protection.

It is if your high rating is on the basis of designing popular games.  It is, in fact, the only "protection" someone like Rein*Hagen needs.  He's rated highly for making popular games, the games he makes are popular by any objective measure, thus he's not overrated.

Now if you wanted to qualify your statement with something like "Rein*Hagen is overrated as a designer of game mechanics," I wouldn't take issue.  Of course, I know very few people who think the Storyteller v1.0 mechanics are all that solid so I'd argue he's not actually overrated in that department either...

KoOS

Well King, I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one.

Based on my experience with game designers:

They all seem like nice noraml people, like me and you all.  I've encountered nothing that makes me think rating them is even worth it.

To me, they're all overrated.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolOverrated doesn't mean "designed a game I don't like." Nor does it mean "pretentious." I have no opinion on him either way but calling the man who created one of the most commercially successful RPGs of all time "overrated" shows a lack of perspective. I think his status in the industry (which nowadays isn't all that elevated anyways... it isn't 1994 anymore) is entirely commensurate with his contributions to it, unlike GMS or Ron Edwards.
 
KoOS

Tom Dowd who also created Vampire also created Shadowrun, and Mage Knight. He's a good designer who's very good a creating popular games. I also like that it seems the people who didn't/don't play Vampire take it more seriously than the people who do! Pretense...please. How pretensious is a Big Ass Vampire with a Shotgun and Biker Jacket?
 
Go Play

Quote from: KrakaJakMark Rein*Hagen also created Shadowrun, and Mage Knight. He's a good designer who's very good a creating popular games. I also like that it seems the people who didn't/don't play Vampire take it more seriously than the people who do! Pretense...please. How pretensious is a Big Ass Vampire with a Shotgun and Biker Jacket?
 
Go Play

Judging from certain people's inability to let an opinion go by in a thread about nothing but opinions...

Quote from: gleichmanJudging from certain people's inability to let an opinion go by in a thread about nothing but opinions...

yup.

Quote from: KrakaJakMark Rein*Hagen also created Shadowrun

:confused:

Wasn't it Nigel Findley and two others whose names escape me right now?

I thought Mark Reign-Hagen just ripped off the mechanic for Vampire and used 10 siders instead of sixes?

Quote from: VellorianThere are many similarities between GMS and RPGPundit. ;)

Well I don't know anything about GMS really. But I will give RPGPundit credit where it is due.  I come in here to the internet equivalent of his front porch, drop my pants, squeeze out a big foamy soft-serve in his lap, and still feel there is zero chance of any banning or censorship.  I gotta give respect for that. :pundit:

Quote from: blakkieWell I don't know anything about GMS really. But I will give RPGPundit credit where it is due.  I come in here to the internet equivalent of his front porch, drop my pants, squeeze out a big foamy soft-serve in his lap, and still feel there is zero chance of any banning or censorship.  I gotta give respect for that. :pundit:

Thanks for the visual!:cough:

Quote from: Vellorian:confused:

Wasn't it Nigel Findley and two others whose names escape me right now?

I thought Mark Reign-Hagen just ripped off the mechanic for Vampire and used 10 siders instead of sixes?

Oops...sorry about the misinformation I meant:
 
"Tom Dowd, who helped create Vampire, also created Shadowrun...."
 
Total Brainfart....sorry:)

Quote from: McrowThanks for the visual!:cough:

With these words I will paint a picture bold and vivid! :serenade:

Quote from: KrakaJakOops...sorry about the misinformation I meant:
 
"Tom Dowd, who helped create Vampire, also created Shadowrun...."

More like "Tom Dowd, one of Shadowun's creators, also helped create Vampire..." :p

Quote from: blakkieWith these words I will paint a picture bold and vivid! :serenade:

Not only are you vile, you're proud of it.:deviousgrin:

Quote from: blakkieWell I don't know anything about GMS really. But I will give RPGPundit credit where it is due.  I come in here to the internet equivalent of his front porch, drop my pants, squeeze out a big foamy soft-serve in his lap, and still feel there is zero chance of any banning or censorship.  I gotta give respect for that. :pundit:

I hope now that I've proven that, you will choose to stay here for something more than to just try to crap on this site?

RPGPundit

Quote from: VellorianI thought Mark Reign-Hagen just ripped off the mechanic for Vampire and used 10 siders instead of sixes?

Mark Rein"Lookatmydot"Hagen had fuck all to do with Shadowrun, other than the fact that he lacked the creativity to make his own game system, so he stole Shadowrun's instead.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMark Rein"Lookatmydot"Hagen had fuck all to do with Shadowrun, other than the fact that he lacked the creativity to make his own game system, so he stole Shadowrun's instead.

RPGPundit

That is very true.   Just talking about Shadowrun brings back great memories I had playing the game.

If I knew that my group would without a doubt play it I would run it.  Right now there are enough games going on where I dont think anyone has the time to.

Quote from: gleichmanHey! He screwed over the greatest published game system of all time and some people think he's the sow's ears!

I call that overrated :hissyfit:

Hmm... you may have a point.

Eh. I consider Star Hero, Pulp Hero and Dark Champions to be three of the best ten RPG books of the last decade, but that's just me.

Any changes he's made to the HERO rules are so arcane that only multi-decade die-hard could even notice them, let alone care. He's left 95+% of the system alone, which is more than enough for me.

Quote from: YamoEh. I consider Star Hero, Pulp Hero and Dark Champions to be three of the best ten RPG books of the last decade, but that's just me.

I gave up on him before the first two, but I fell for Dark Champions.

It is the worst HERO book of all time IMO, and one of the worse RPG books for that matter. It was completed the run to my current opinion of him that 5th edition started.

As for not noticing his changes...

Anyone who seriously played, understood, and used HERO would notice the changes within a handful of gaming sessions. I've even had people new to the product point out how stupid some of them were.

I don't have Star Hero. I don't have Pulp Hero but I hear from people I trust that it's great. I do have Fantasy Hero for 5e, and it IS great. It has all the goodness of a Fantasy Cookbook/Bible that 4e's version had, minus the chip on the shoulder about D&D and stupid reservations about using the power system to its fullest to do magic.

I was following Hero 5e, but when it became clear I was not going to get my play-time money's worth out of following the line, I decided it was time to cut my losses.

So, what is so bad or good about the Hero line these days (Star Hero in particular)? What am I (not) missing out on?

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI don't have Star Hero. I don't have Pulp Hero but I hear from people I trust that it's great. I do have Fantasy Hero for 5e, and it IS great. It has all the goodness of a Fantasy Cookbook/Bible that 4e's version had, minus the chip on the shoulder about D&D and stupid reservations about using the power system to its fullest to do magic.

I was following Hero 5e, but when it became clear I was not going to get my play-time money's worth out of following the line, I decided it was time to cut my losses.

So, what is so bad or good about the Hero line these days (Star Hero in particular)? What am I (not) missing out on?

Hudson City is an excellent city book for any kind of "dark" modern genre (Punisher-style super-vigilante, gritty crime, etc).

Terran Empire for Star Hero is a really good space opera setting. It's kind of like Traveller in tone without the decades of detail baggage, conflicting canon, etc.

Turakian Age is one of the best high fantasy settings I've ever seen. See my review on RPG.Net for more details on this one.

I don't know much about the Champions line. It's huge, though, so it probably varies a lot.

Quote from: YamoHudson City is an excellent city book for any kind of "dark" modern genre (Punisher-style super-vigilante, gritty crime, etc).

Terran Empire for Star Hero is a really good space opera setting. It's kind of like Traveller in tone without the decades of detail baggage, conflicting canon, etc.

Turakian Age is one of the best high fantasy settings I've ever seen. See my review on RPG.Net for more details on this one.

I don't know much about the Champions line. It's huge, though, so it probably varies a lot.

I do have Turakian Age. Seems a bit bog standard. Which I guess would be just what you'd want if you want fantasy hero over d20, but no siren song for me there.

Don't follow champions so much. I mean it was cool in the day, but DC Heroes is my mainstay supers game. I started Hero with champions, but what really kept me there was the fantasy and martial arts stuff.

Well, so long as it lasted, at least.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI do have Turakian Age. Seems a bit bog standard. Which I guess would be just what you'd want if you want fantasy hero over d20, but no siren song for me there.

For me, it's a craftsmanship thing. Standard material, perfect handling. Like the most superbly-tailored cotton t-shirt ever crafted by the hand of man. :)

HERO5 nearly doubled the pagecount from the basic 4th edition rules. This was bearable, although I could never stop wondering why so many extra pages were needed- was it crunch or verbiage in other words. Then I started investing in the genre books and the Ultimates line. Fantasy HERO5 I agree is very, very good indeed. The single best supplement in the entire line IMO, and probably the best encyclopedia of how to set up a fantasy campaign that has ever been published. It was probably still too long though. The other genre books and the Ultimates line books I bought were OK.

It was Steve Long's approach to package deals that first made me feel that something was going wrong. In the rules he talks about them being around 15pts or so max. In the various supplements he was dishing out cookie cutter package deals costing 80pts or more. These were poorly conceived, badly designed, and of limited utility in any case I felt. And then I began to get tired of reading the same 'copy-and-paste with minor edits' in the different genre books, eg. the sections on power levels and so on. The munchkinistic points-bloat and legalistic verbiage was beginning to get to me.

The last straws for me were HERO5R and Pulp HERO.

The former added some 140 pages to the already bloated big black book. I couldn't fucking beleive it. Not just overblown, but the new book's pagination also meant that all future rules references would be utterly useless unless I chose to shell out for the same game all over again.

It was the superskills in the latter which I couldn't take. One of them was 'Strong Swimmer'. What was this?- 1" extra swimming. Long wrote an entire paragraph explaining that the way to be a strong swimmer was to buy more... swimming (a basic attribute btw). And that was only the most egregious example of a design philosophy gone utterly bonkers.

Long later erected the headstone on the grave of this fan's willingness to buy into his edition any more when he wrote on HERO forums about the work he was doing on The Ultimate Skill. He proudly told us that he had written 12000 words about one single skill! I rest my case, sad to say. ;)

Quote from: JMcL63It was Steve Long's approach to package deals that first made me feel that something was going wrong. In the rules he talks about them being around 15pts or so max. In the various supplements he was dishing out cookie cutter package deals costing 80pts or more. These were poorly conceived, badly designed, and of limited utility in any case I felt. And then I began to get tired of reading the same 'copy-and-paste with minor edits' in the different genre books, eg. the sections on power levels and so on. The munchkinistic points-bloat and legalistic verbiage was beginning to get to me.

I have different issues with them, but package deals are my main letdown for 5e. :(

Quote from: JMcL63Long later erected the headstone on the grave of this fan's willingness to buy into his edition any more when he wrote on HERO forums about the work he was doing on The Ultimate Skill. He proudly told us that he had written 12000 words about one single skill! I rest my case, sad to say. ;)

He also created Sidekick, which makes the BBB look like a bloated slab of a tome. :)

Seriously, though, I guess that kind of thing doesn't bother me. Do you look at a whole buffet and get pissed because you can't eat it all?

Just take what you want/need and leave the rest.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI have different issues with them, but package deals are my main letdown for 5e. :(

Are you perhaps referring to the dropping of the package bonus? I didn't like that either. It would've been the easiest thing in the world to allow the bonus to apply only to normal/heroic characters IMO.

My main beef was that package deals were initially supposed to be templates representing the utterly typical example of their kind. Under Long they essentially became bloated pregenerated character classes. Heck, some of them even included characteristics increases, eg. Priest, +5 EGO. And then Long had to go and explain how package deal costs might have to be adjusted if the included characteristics violated maxima. He couldn't even just say that you should assume these were bought before you spent your other points on characteristics. Legalistic pettifogging of the worst sort IMO. Sheesh. ;)

Quote from: JMcL63Are you perhaps referring to the dropping of the package bonus?

(http://users.gmpexpress.net/adkohler/agree.gif)

I mean I understood that the whole "racial stat limits" thing wasn't working, but the package "kickback" was the one thing that kept HERO in my constellation of "structured games". It's like it fell from grace at that point.

Not like I couldn't house rule it back in, but it sort of sets the tenor for the nature of the game as a whole.

Quote from: YamoHe also created Sidekick, which makes the BBB look like a bloated slab of a tome. :)

Seriously, though, I guess that kind of thing doesn't bother me. Do you look at a whole buffet and get pissed because you can't eat it all?

Just take what you want/need and leave the rest.

Sidekick was a failed attempt to solve the problem of introducing new players to HERO. It failed not because Sidekick didn't work as HERO-lite, but because it was the wrong way to approach the issue, and because Long showed no further interest in it.

And my problem with HERO is that I really just can't be arsed with the effort anymore. I just don't have the energy to deal with it as a would-be GM. Meanwhile Steve Long has taken a system that I still love and systematically drained it of all interest and excitement with a range of products that I feel are increasingly blatant attempts shamelessly to milk my loyalty to a vision of the game that Long himself is no longer propounding.

If a GM wants to run it I'll play it happily. And I might even just consider running an SF campaign or somesuch using HERO (M&M is an option, but it just can't deliver quite the same detailed crunch to the armoury). But I'm fed up with DoJ's iteration of HERO. Pissed off? You bet. And not just at Long, but also that it's come to this at all. ;)

Quote from: Caesar Slaad(http://users.gmpexpress.net/adkohler/agree.gif)

I mean I understood that the whole "racial stat limits" thing wasn't working, but the package "kickback" was the one thing that kept HERO in my constellation of "structured games". It's like it fell from grace at that point.

Not like I couldn't house rule it back in, but it sort of sets the tenor for the nature of the game as a whole.

I know how you feel with that last point. Long was determined to raise overall points levels in keeping with his cost restructuring while simultaneously stripping out all the minor freebies that were so useful for low powered characters. Remember the 'Real Frees'?- that AK: Home, PS: a job, and Native Tounge 4 that you used to get as real points? Gone too. Why? Why? :confused:

And I did come up with a fix for the racial stats thing that worked for me: the package paid the points for increased maxima, and they increased the base value too- eg. pay 3pts for STR max 23 and you had base STR 13. At the same time I included the cost of increased characteristic maxima in the total cost of the package for the package bonus, and expanded the package bonus table up into the high 100's. This proved to be really handy for designing templates for alien beasties, eg. Tyranid hiveships. ;)

Quote from: Caesar Slaad(http://users.gmpexpress.net/adkohler/agree.gif)
Not like I couldn't house rule it back in, but it sort of sets the tenor for the nature of the game as a whole.

My point about my own version of the species package characteristic maxima has rebounded off this remark of yours with another thought: the big difference between HERO5 and 4th ed. is that the sheer bulk of legalistic verbiage in the former discourages the very houseruling that I found so easy to do in with my work on alien bugs under the reign of the latter. 'Sets the tenor' indeed wouldn't you think? ;)

Quote from: joewolzBased on my experience with game designers:

They all seem like nice noraml people, like me and you all.  I've encountered nothing that makes me think rating them is even worth it.

To me, they're all overrated.

I agree completely, but some are less normal than othersl :)

Quote from: RPGPunditMark Rein"Lookatmydot"Hagen had fuck all to do with Shadowrun, other than the fact that he lacked the creativity to make his own game system, so he stole Shadowrun's instead.

RPGPundit

You know, I really don't understand all the hate for Storyteller or Markey-Mark. It's a good system when you want something quick. It's not perfect, but what is?  It's also a lot simpler than Shadowrun. But Rein-Hagen accomplished a great deal with White Wolf and should definitely be credited for that. Don't forget, he also worked on Ars Magica, something that is still in publication and not connected to Vampire et al.

By the same token, I suppose people who make OGL games like Green Ronin lack creativity because they're just ripping off d20 by changing some things around and filing off the serial number.

Seriously, I'd really like to know where does all this White Wolf hatred come from?

Quote from: pigames.netYou know, I really don't understand all the hate for Storyteller or Markey-Mark. It's a good system when you want something quick. It's not perfect, but what is?  

*Snip*

Seriously, I'd really like to know where does all this White Wolf hatred come from?

Mine comes from annoyance at the game promising something that it fails utterly to deliver (a more storylike gaming experience).

I am the most overrated figure.


Really.


Actually... I never really bothered to read 'GM advice' or what have you in any game book I ever bought. I mean, I've tried to, but generally it's stupid, pointless and boring. I read the rules, teh character creation stuff, the shit I will actually use. I'll read the setting> Hell, I'll read the fucking Index before I bother reading what ever the hell some asshole in Pawtucket thinks about 'what gaming is'.   Seriously. Maybe that's why I was so late to recognize the pretentions of the WW games. Maybe that's why I base my hate on real issues with system or setting... rather than worrying about some stupid dot in a name.

I am the yellow spanky God of RPG design, and I fucking Rule. :eek:

Quote from: pigames.netYou know, I really don't understand all the hate for Storyteller or Markey-Mark.

I think NWoD is a high quality product.  I think the rules are fine, not great but not bad either and some really good supplements.

As for original Vampire, it brought a ton of people into the hobby, which is cool.

That said, the games did not deliver what they promised and that is annoying, plus all that "be a storyteller" crap which I would be fine with if it helped you be just that but it doesn't which makes it pretentious.

To be clear, I don't think aiming to tell stories is pretentious, I think pretending to do so while still basically playing DnD is.  You're doing the same as the other guy, but dressing it up to look prettier.  That is what I find pretentious.

Quote from: JMcL63Meanwhile Steve Long has taken a system that I still love and systematically drained it of all interest and excitement with a range of products that I feel are increasingly blatant attempts shamelessly to milk my loyalty to a vision of the game that Long himself is no longer propounding.

That was very well said indeed.

Quote from: pigames.netSeriously, I'd really like to know where does all this White Wolf hatred come from?

Pretension.

Beyond that I have objections to it on moral and social levels, but I'm extremely likely to be the only one here like that. Everyone can now pass on flaming me for this, I've heard it all before and it only gives me additional personal proof.


Edit: The mechanics did suck (but WW isn't alone in this), and new versions still suck because dice pools suck (all IMO of course). The whole failed promise of Story however only exists in the minds of Forgies and near-Forgies- real gamers understood what that was all about.

Moral grounds?  As in you think they're actively evil?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalMoral grounds?  As in you think they're actively evil?

Actively as in demons in book form? No.

Quote from: RPGPunditI hope now that I've proven that, you will choose to stay here for something more than to just try to crap on this site?

RPGPundit

I'm not crapping on the site. Just on your intellectually bankrupt rhetoric. Because it makes me sad that you are wasting your skill on that. :(

Quote from: blakkieI'm not crapping on the site. Just on your intellectually bankrupt rhetoric. Because it makes me sad that you are wasting skill on that. :(

No, you're not.  I disagree with a fair bit you say but I rather like reading it and it is a valid contribution, for what that's worth.

Hell, if we all agreed with each other what would be the point.

Quote from: BalbinusHell, if we all agreed with each other what would be the point.

The Kool-aid? :D

Quote from: BalbinusThat said, the games did not deliver what they promised and that is annoying, plus all that "be a storyteller" crap which I would be fine with if it helped you be just that but it doesn't which makes it pretentious.

Interesting, because when I bought the game(s), I didn't expect anything more out of them than I did for any other RPG. All RPGs are storytelling games - no one tried to convince me that Storyteller was any different, just that they'd be fun to play. So, perhaps because I wasn't looking for anything different, I wasn't disappointed. (and in this day and age, haven't we learned not to listen to hype?)

Quote from: pigames.netInteresting, because when I bought the game(s), I didn't expect anything more out of them than I did for any other RPG. All RPGs are storytelling games - no one tried to convince me that Storyteller was any different, just that they'd be fun to play. So, perhaps because I wasn't looking for anything different, I wasn't disappointed. (and in this day and age, haven't we learned not to listen to hype?)

Well, to be clear I am talking about the original old WoD.  NWoD I think is genuinely excellent and a really good game.

Plus I was younger and more naieve back then, now of course I am old and jaded...

Quote from: BalbinusWell, to be clear I am talking about the original old WoD.  NWoD I think is genuinely excellent and a really good game.

Plus I was younger and more naieve back then, now of course I am old and jaded...

Yeah, I was talking about the original. I started with 1st edition Vampire. Like I said, I wouldn't say it was fantastic, but it was a solid game. Now the new one on other hand holds no interest for me as I'm rather sick of the line :) I think all of Storyteller is now overrated simply for that reason, but no particular people associated with it.

Quote from: pigames.netYeah, I was talking about the original. I started with 1st edition Vampire. Like I said, I wouldn't say it was fantastic, but it was a solid game. Now the new one on other hand holds no interest for me as I'm rather sick of the line :) I think all of Storyteller is now overrated simply for that reason, but no particular people associated with it.

I haven't posted any nominations to this thread, there are people in the industry who's work I always check out but there isn't really anyone I have a great animus towards.

Well, except I suppose Vincent Baker, I loved Kill Puppies for Satan and I thought Dogs was a great game even if not to my taste, but I understand his new game is called Balbinus Doesn't Deserve to Live! which seems a tad unnecessary.

That said, Vincent is definitely not overrated.

Quote from: BalbinusThat said, Vincent is definitely not overrated.

Now that I totally disagree with.

Quote from: pigames.netNow that I totally disagree with.

Fair enough.

I think your stuff is underrated, particularly games like Vice Squad.  Hopefully there we can reach better agreement.

Quote from: BalbinusFair enough.

I think your stuff is underrated, particularly games like Vice Squad.  Hopefully there we can reach better agreement.

This is just one of those screwy treads ;)

Quote from: BalbinusWell, except I suppose Vincent Baker, I loved Kill Puppies for Satan and I thought Dogs was a great game even if not to my taste, but I understand his new game is called Balbinus Doesn't Deserve to Live! which seems a tad unnecessary.

  Ya what?

  Lumpley's the kind of bible basher I can cope with essentially.  Puppies and Dogs both had strong christian messages to them but those messages were portrayed in a quite delicate and intelligent fashion.  The only piece of christian lecturing I can think of that competes with his stuff is something like The Exorcist.

  Having said that, in the case of Dogs it was enough to make me lose interest and Puppies didn't really work for me because my principles and demarcation between games and reality are quite clear to me so at no point would I slip into semi-depressed introversion as is clearly intended.  I mean, once you've playerd a couple of Kult games in which you were part of a paedophile ring of demon worshippers who eventually got caught and raped to death in prison, putting hamsters in a blender just doesn't really do it for you.

It's surprising how few people realise that KPFS is essentially a game with a strong Christian message.

I think they're good designs, that doesn't make me want to play them.  I think current DnD is for various reasons a brilliant design, but I would need some pitching to play it and there is no way in hell I would ever run it.

Essentially, what I think is good and what I want to play are not always the same thing.

None of them are a patch on Space 1889 though, but then what is?

Quote from: pigames.netSeriously, I'd really like to know where does all this White Wolf hatred come from?

I never had any hate on for Storyteller/WW. Sure, they were pretentious at times in the writing, but it was fun in the mindset while you were reading it.  A game aimed at Goths that was filled with quotes from goth/alternative music, and the guidance sections dripped with pretension? It rocked, seriously. I did find the game incongruent with what it was "supposed to be about" (see below), but I didn't have "hate" for it. As a consumer, I just ignored it and yet focused on the lines I found interesting (Like MAGE or WRAITH, which DID support "what the game was supposed to be about").

Plus, it brought lots of hot goth girls into gaming.

I wasn't hung up on the whole "system broke" thing (like a machine gun having an equal chance of killing you as blowing up in the weilder's face because of the crit/fumble system), but I see that nWod fixes a lot of that.

Quote from: gleichmanThe whole failed promise of Story however only exists in the minds of Forgies and near-Forgies- real gamers understood what that was all about.

I wasn't the only one that was put off by the fact that the game's text, the "what you're supposed to do with this game", was all "explore the vampire/human nature", "seek redemption or ditch humanity altogether", etc, but all the game play examples and rules were Gunfights and Vampire Control Politics. Then the supplement treadmill started, and the Vampire Control Politics became the game. In the second edition, IIRC, the whole "Golconda" stuff (basically attempting to become human again, or achieving this zen-like balance between the worlds) became "A Lie", and the game focused even more on Gunfights (now against Werewolves, Technocracy and Antitribu!) and even more vampire control politics. And yet the whole "explore vampire/human nature; seek redemption or ditch humanity" stuff was still paid lip service to even though it totally didn't support it.

It would be like seeing an advertisement in the back of Dungeon magazine for a new "Immortals Box Set" (ala D&D) where it says that it's about what happens when Humans become Immortal. You buy it, expecting all D&D style fantasy adventure at a high scale. It even says that's what the game is about on the back blurb and the Introduction. Then you flip to page Two and the book is actually NOBILIS. In fact, it's NOBILIS without even rules for combat... And yet, all the pages of game fiction contained in this fictional NOBILIS-hybrid is about mighty godlings fighting each other with weapons and magic.

Folks who love the whole tactical gunfight and Vampire social control politics stuff (and there were a lot of people who liked it, hence the game's popularity) loved Vampire. Folks who loved the ideas written on the back cover of the rulebook, and Introduction/"What is this Game About" chapter and Game Fiction of the rulebook, were put off by the realization that the game contained none of those things on the back cover or intruduction. At least MAGE and WRAITH (and perhaps WEREWOLF, but I wasn't as familiar with that game) were a hell of a lot closer in the game rules and examples as to what was described on the cover of the book and the Introductory text.

-Andy

You know guys, threads about whether or not Vampire delivers as it promises for some reason never seem to go well.  Not sure why, but I'd suggest we all back away slowly without making any sudden movements and go back to arguing about historical games or something.

Quote from: Andy KI wasn't the only one that was put off by the fact that the game's text, the "what you're supposed to do with this game", was all "explore the vampire/human nature", "seek redemption or ditch humanity altogether", etc, but all the game play examples and rules were Gunfights and Vampire Control Politics.

That's because you're in with the Forgies Andy :)

Seriously, if you needed rules to explore the vampire/human nature thing- you had already missed the boat on what role-playing games of the era were and allowed in the first place. That was pure Meta-game layer design common to the period.

Some times you just got to... role-play.

Quote from: gleichmanSome times you just got to... role-play.

Couldn't have said that better myself!