Quote from: RPGPunditMark Rein"Lookatmydot"Hagen had fuck all to do with Shadowrun, other than the fact that he lacked the creativity to make his own game system, so he stole Shadowrun's instead.

RPGPundit

You know, I really don't understand all the hate for Storyteller or Markey-Mark. It's a good system when you want something quick. It's not perfect, but what is?  It's also a lot simpler than Shadowrun. But Rein-Hagen accomplished a great deal with White Wolf and should definitely be credited for that. Don't forget, he also worked on Ars Magica, something that is still in publication and not connected to Vampire et al.

By the same token, I suppose people who make OGL games like Green Ronin lack creativity because they're just ripping off d20 by changing some things around and filing off the serial number.

Seriously, I'd really like to know where does all this White Wolf hatred come from?

Quote from: pigames.netYou know, I really don't understand all the hate for Storyteller or Markey-Mark. It's a good system when you want something quick. It's not perfect, but what is?  

*Snip*

Seriously, I'd really like to know where does all this White Wolf hatred come from?

Mine comes from annoyance at the game promising something that it fails utterly to deliver (a more storylike gaming experience).

I am the most overrated figure.


Really.


Actually... I never really bothered to read 'GM advice' or what have you in any game book I ever bought. I mean, I've tried to, but generally it's stupid, pointless and boring. I read the rules, teh character creation stuff, the shit I will actually use. I'll read the setting> Hell, I'll read the fucking Index before I bother reading what ever the hell some asshole in Pawtucket thinks about 'what gaming is'.   Seriously. Maybe that's why I was so late to recognize the pretentions of the WW games. Maybe that's why I base my hate on real issues with system or setting... rather than worrying about some stupid dot in a name.

I am the yellow spanky God of RPG design, and I fucking Rule. :eek:

Quote from: pigames.netYou know, I really don't understand all the hate for Storyteller or Markey-Mark.

I think NWoD is a high quality product.  I think the rules are fine, not great but not bad either and some really good supplements.

As for original Vampire, it brought a ton of people into the hobby, which is cool.

That said, the games did not deliver what they promised and that is annoying, plus all that "be a storyteller" crap which I would be fine with if it helped you be just that but it doesn't which makes it pretentious.

To be clear, I don't think aiming to tell stories is pretentious, I think pretending to do so while still basically playing DnD is.  You're doing the same as the other guy, but dressing it up to look prettier.  That is what I find pretentious.

Quote from: JMcL63Meanwhile Steve Long has taken a system that I still love and systematically drained it of all interest and excitement with a range of products that I feel are increasingly blatant attempts shamelessly to milk my loyalty to a vision of the game that Long himself is no longer propounding.

That was very well said indeed.

Quote from: pigames.netSeriously, I'd really like to know where does all this White Wolf hatred come from?

Pretension.

Beyond that I have objections to it on moral and social levels, but I'm extremely likely to be the only one here like that. Everyone can now pass on flaming me for this, I've heard it all before and it only gives me additional personal proof.


Edit: The mechanics did suck (but WW isn't alone in this), and new versions still suck because dice pools suck (all IMO of course). The whole failed promise of Story however only exists in the minds of Forgies and near-Forgies- real gamers understood what that was all about.

Moral grounds?  As in you think they're actively evil?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalMoral grounds?  As in you think they're actively evil?

Actively as in demons in book form? No.

Quote from: RPGPunditI hope now that I've proven that, you will choose to stay here for something more than to just try to crap on this site?

RPGPundit

I'm not crapping on the site. Just on your intellectually bankrupt rhetoric. Because it makes me sad that you are wasting your skill on that.

Quote from: blakkieI'm not crapping on the site. Just on your intellectually bankrupt rhetoric. Because it makes me sad that you are wasting skill on that.

No, you're not.  I disagree with a fair bit you say but I rather like reading it and it is a valid contribution, for what that's worth.

Hell, if we all agreed with each other what would be the point.

Quote from: BalbinusHell, if we all agreed with each other what would be the point.

The Kool-aid?

Quote from: BalbinusThat said, the games did not deliver what they promised and that is annoying, plus all that "be a storyteller" crap which I would be fine with if it helped you be just that but it doesn't which makes it pretentious.

Interesting, because when I bought the game(s), I didn't expect anything more out of them than I did for any other RPG. All RPGs are storytelling games - no one tried to convince me that Storyteller was any different, just that they'd be fun to play. So, perhaps because I wasn't looking for anything different, I wasn't disappointed. (and in this day and age, haven't we learned not to listen to hype?)

Quote from: pigames.netInteresting, because when I bought the game(s), I didn't expect anything more out of them than I did for any other RPG. All RPGs are storytelling games - no one tried to convince me that Storyteller was any different, just that they'd be fun to play. So, perhaps because I wasn't looking for anything different, I wasn't disappointed. (and in this day and age, haven't we learned not to listen to hype?)

Well, to be clear I am talking about the original old WoD.  NWoD I think is genuinely excellent and a really good game.

Plus I was younger and more naieve back then, now of course I am old and jaded...

Quote from: BalbinusWell, to be clear I am talking about the original old WoD.  NWoD I think is genuinely excellent and a really good game.

Plus I was younger and more naieve back then, now of course I am old and jaded...

Yeah, I was talking about the original. I started with 1st edition Vampire. Like I said, I wouldn't say it was fantastic, but it was a solid game. Now the new one on other hand holds no interest for me as I'm rather sick of the line I think all of Storyteller is now overrated simply for that reason, but no particular people associated with it.

Quote from: pigames.netYeah, I was talking about the original. I started with 1st edition Vampire. Like I said, I wouldn't say it was fantastic, but it was a solid game. Now the new one on other hand holds no interest for me as I'm rather sick of the line I think all of Storyteller is now overrated simply for that reason, but no particular people associated with it.

I haven't posted any nominations to this thread, there are people in the industry who's work I always check out but there isn't really anyone I have a great animus towards.

Well, except I suppose Vincent Baker, I loved Kill Puppies for Satan and I thought Dogs was a great game even if not to my taste, but I understand his new game is called Balbinus Doesn't Deserve to Live! which seems a tad unnecessary.

That said, Vincent is definitely not overrated.