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Which was the most mechanically complex game you ever participated in (playing, or GMing)?

And, importantly, did you like it?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;662968Which was the most mechanically complex game you ever participated in (playing, or GMing)?

And, importantly, did you like it?

RPGPundit

Space Opera, I hated it (although I've got some of the supplements for the Jeff Dee art and to mine for ideas). I will never play it again.

Although a special shout out needs to be given to Alernity's bullshit task resolution system which did nothing but slow the game down to a crawl whenever it was used.

And since you didn't specifically say RPGs, I will add that Star Fleet Battles is the most complex wargame I ever played. I also liked it, may God have mercy on my soul.

AD&D 2e.

My main problem with it wasnt so much its complication, but its overall non-intuitiveness.

I think this honor would be bestowed to Rolemaster with at least elements of Companions I, II, III, IV and VII involved, that I remember. There probably was some Arms Companion and Spell User's Companion mixed with this too, maybe some Companion V and VI, and perhaps more.

In any case, that was Rolemaster on steroids. The GM did a good job with the game, but he was handling stuff like keeping the character sheets up to date, bean-counting the details and all that. We would control our character's evolution and level up with the GM and stuff, but we would do it all together as a group with the GM, rather than separately between sessions.

It worked rather well, mostly because the GM mastered the intricacies of the options he had selected for the system, and because he too was a fine GM otherwise.

I really do not mind Rolemaster without the Companions, I think it's a fine system and I'd run it in a heartbeat, but with that shitload of options, it struck me as complication for complication's sake, and I'd never run that myself.

3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons. :)

Millenium's End.

The skills system was a simple roll-under percentile, but the combat was atrociously gimmicky; from the hit location system to the determination of the wound type and trauma and bleeding, all intersecting back at a remarkably simple incapacitation modifier to skills, it's pretty much the one game where even _I_ don't want to get in combat, because it's just too long and mechanically difficult to follow.

The most complicated game I played is Dangerous Journeys. I don't remember much other than having pages and pages of character sheet (pregen) which I promptly ignored. The only fun bits involved character interaction, the game itself disintegrated with a couple of sessions.

I still wonder what possessed the GM to run this game. Surely at some point during many long hours he must have spent creating all our characters he must have realised that this was insane?

RoleMaster 2e with a whole slew of options from the first four or five companions.

It was awesome, and creating a character record for it taught me how to program the fuck out of MS Excel (which has helped me immensely in making myself useful at my current job).  My players didn't like it so much, though.

A close second was the time I ran a very short-lived campaign of AD&D 2e with all (ALL) of the Player's Option rules in effect.  That sucked fat greasy donkey cock.

RMSS edition rolemaster was pretty bad. I GMed it for two separate groups, both times only for a session or two. What made it especially bad was that in one group I was the only person who'd read any of the rules. I'm thinking of GMing it again but if I do it will definitely be the older, less fiddly edition (2nd, I think. With the red borders on the covers.)

Oh, and D&D 3e and 4e are also both way over the top complexity wise.

3e, especially with all of the sourcebooks we were using. Loved it, though.

SPI's Dragonquest and Universe. RPGs made by wargame companies are a class into themselves.

Well, I did run Powers and Perils for a few sessions but it doesn't really deserve its reputation for complexity.

Anyhow, I think the most scary, out there game I ever ran was Lee Gold's Lands of Adventure published by FGU.  I wish I'd kept it now as it actually was very inspirational.

At the time the calculation for Skills seemed very complex but I think it was actually just averaging two stats for each skill.  There was a different formula for each skill anyhow.

Weapon damage was based on its weight and leverage.  I'd have to check the book but I think it was the taper pole lever equation my ninth grade science teacher was so fond of.

There was a formula for computing the energy cost of spells and a formula for divine intervention and a formula for armor and so on.

It's been so long I can't recall the details.  But where GURPS and Rolemaster NEVER get past fifth grade math, Lands of Adventure was pushing tenth grade pretty hard.

Probably Top Secret.  Only played it a couple times, so maybe that's why.  I never spent a lot of time getting familiar with it.

I recently got a copy of Dangerous Journeys, and that seems really complicated for an RPG.

Dragon Quest Complex?  It's the sum of two stats plus 3% per rank for just about everything.

Star Frontiers is harder with its stat / 2 + 10 x rank.  Oooooh DIVISION!  SCARY!

Seriously though, we were playing Dragon Quest in seventh grade and never had a problem with it.  I do think the case numbering could be intimidating and a few things like the parry calculation were a bit fiddly as they were a percentage of the percentage chance to hit but that percentage boiled down to 1/4 or 1/5 I can't quite recall which.

Also, I thought Dangerous Journeys was complex upon reading it.  But that turned out to be Gygaxian prose causing confusion.  It's just a stat + fixed bonus for base skills.  Where it gets ugly is full practicioner spell books with their hundreds of entries.  Not particularly complex but a terrible chore.  The armor data blocks are similarly easy to use and horrible to copy out on your character sheet.

Quote from: David Johansen;662990Dragon Quest Complex?  It's the sum of two stats plus 3% per rank for just about everything.

Star Frontiers is harder with its stat / 2 + 10 x rank.  Oooooh DIVISION!  SCARY!

Fourth grade math is hard.

I honestly don't get that.  Fourth grade math is very basic skills for daily living math.  How people can even live in the modern world without using it is mystifying to me.

I think it's far more likely that the case numbered format and trying to figure out what the rules meant is the source of people's Dragon Quest problems.  I'm absolutely sure it's the source of their Dangerous Journeys issues.

Universe on the other hand was really a mess and hard to interpret.  It was one of those games where every skill had its own little batch of mechanics that didn't interelate directly with the other mechanics.  I think it could have been a heck of a game.  A early exploration, relatively hard sf game where aliens exist to be discovered and contacted and humanity is the protagonist and antagonist.

Quote from: David Johansen;662993I honestly don't get that.  Fourth grade math is very basic skills for daily living math.  How people can even live in the modern world without using it is mystifying to me.

It's not about difficulty, it's about tediousness of it all. I can get behind it, as the most complicated RPG I ever played was Polish Kryształy Czasu (Crystals of Time), where you had 12 types of Defences which were often calculated on these lines: Take 1/6 of your Dexternity, 1/2 of your Strength, 1/5 of Intelligence and 1/3 of Defence 3. It's not complicated per se, but it is pretty tedious.

That game, and D&D 3e. I had fun with both, though I leave D&D for NWN and Crystals of Time for, well, not as tedious games.

Dangerous Journeys because it was hard to understand. I just recently picked up the set again (Thanks Benoist... :p) and tried reading it. Some fun stuff in there. We enjoyed the game, despite the complicated mechanics (and new terms, and prose, and small font). I still love the bestiary, what a brilliant way to present monsters...

I think Hero 5er and GURPS 3/4e are the most complicated games I've ran and played. They are consistent, well written and explained, and plenty of examples. Once you learn them, they do well in play. And we LOVED the options!! But there is a LOT to learn. It takes some prep to play. I really enjoyed the many characters I played in our ongoing Fantasy Hero games. Thok the Druid Ogre will hold a special place in my heart. :-)

d20 - 3.5 and Pathfinder are ENORMOUS catalogs of options. I can't even fathom how to balance the stuff out. CR does not work as advertised (although most games can't nail this very well) which makes building encounters a crap shoot, and trying to remember all this stuff is painful. There is some serious fun to be had, and the Pathfinder folks are some seriously creative geniuses (love the flavor in these books). I absolutely LOVE me some D&D sometimes. I like the magic, the cosmos, and the menagerie of strange creatures. I just need to find a better way of playing/running it. :-)

OH, and honorable mention to AD&D if you use all the rules.  I grew up on, as was trained with, AD&D, so I don't know what it's like to pick up the books as a new player from scratch.  But my looking at the books, they really are quite complex.

Quote from: RPGPundit;662968Which was the most mechanically complex game you ever participated in (playing, or GMing)?

And, importantly, did you like it?

RPGPundit

Probably FantasyCraft. We stopped playing it after the 2nd session.

Quote from: David Johansen;662993I honestly don't get that.  Fourth grade math is very basic skills for daily living math.  How people can even live in the modern world without using it is mystifying to me.

I'm with you.  But not many others are.  I used to tutor algebra for college undergrads; they could barely do multiplication without begging for their calculators.  That was about 10 years ago...don't want to think what the situation is like now.

Hell 10 years ago people whined to high heaven about subtraction on RPGnet and the like.

Quote from: KenHR;663008I'm with you.  But not many others are.  I used to tutor algebra for college undergrads; they could barely do multiplication without begging for their calculators.  That was about 10 years ago...don't want to think what the situation is like now.

Hell 10 years ago people whined to high heaven about subtraction on RPGnet and the like.

Same as always really - some people do, some people don't. I'm baffled myself during CoC games when I see people reaching for mobiles to multiply by 20 or 5. C'est la vie.

Aftermath!
I've run it, of course I might consider Bureau 13 with all the options for combat it would be a close twin.

Mind you I've owned worse, but run/played?

Quote from: David Johansen;662993I honestly don't get that.  Fourth grade math is very basic skills for daily living math.  How people can even live in the modern world without using it is mystifying to me.

West End Games had to come up with a simpler version of the D6 system because people (at cons) apparently struggled with adding up d6s.

Not to mention, the whole THAC0 is too complicated stuff.

Quote from: Silverlion;663012Aftermath!
I've run it, of course I might consider Bureau 13 with all the options for combat it would be a close twin.

Mind you I've owned worse, but run/played?

Aftermath also won for me, at least the combat system.  I've run other games that were worse for chargen, or for otherstuff, but Aftermath took the cake for Combat being ridiculously more difficult than it needed to be.

3.5 / Pathfinder. We played that for 2-3 years and I recall each level-up spending hours paging through books trying to pick half decent feat paths and skills. I also recall trying to keep track of 6 or 7 modifiers per dice roll. At a certain point, the simplified house rules required binders of rule changes. I realized that the result of houseruling was essentially D&D B/X, so I tossed the PF books aside and have been happily playing B/X/LL ever since.

Quote from: trechriron;663000Dangerous Journeys because it was hard to understand. I just recently picked up the set again (Thanks Benoist... :p) and tried reading it. Some fun stuff in there. We enjoyed the game, despite the complicated mechanics (and new terms, and prose, and small font). I still love the bestiary, what a brilliant way to present monsters...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;662989I recently got a copy of Dangerous Journeys, and that seems really complicated for an RPG.

Heh. You're welcome, guys. I guess. :D

Dangerous Journeys didn't make it as my most complicated RPG because the Mythus Prime rules provide a rather smooth introduction to the system, then we graduate progressively to the Advanced Mythus rules. You introduce Joss Factors, then K/S Sub-areas, then split the stats in categories and sub-categories, and so on. I really like the game. Advanced Advanced D&D, in a way.

Quote from: KenHR;663008I'm with you.  But not many others are.  I used to tutor algebra for college undergrads; they could barely do multiplication without begging for their calculators.  That was about 10 years ago...don't want to think what the situation is like now.

Hell 10 years ago people whined to high heaven about subtraction on RPGnet and the like.

I'm with you.

It pains me to see Players cringe at the simple algebra in Classic Traveller. People seem to have this irrational fear of Math and Science.

Aftermath combat was the hardest thing for me to play, but we enjoyed ourselves while playing it.

Air War was the hardest game I have ever played, but I was in 7th grade when I played it.

Quote from: David Johansen;662988Well, I did run Powers and Perils for a few sessions but it doesn't really deserve its reputation for complexity.

Anyhow, I think the most scary, out there game I ever ran was Lee Gold's Lands of Adventure published by FGU.  I wish I'd kept it now as it actually was very inspirational.

At the time the calculation for Skills seemed very complex but I think it was actually just averaging two stats for each skill.  There was a different formula for each skill anyhow.

Weapon damage was based on its weight and leverage.  I'd have to check the book but I think it was the taper pole lever equation my ninth grade science teacher was so fond of.

There was a formula for computing the energy cost of spells and a formula for divine intervention and a formula for armor and so on.

It's been so long I can't recall the details.  But where GURPS and Rolemaster NEVER get past fifth grade math, Lands of Adventure was pushing tenth grade pretty hard.

FGU standard system for Skill score is -  ((Stat + Stat + Trait)/y + optional number) + accrued skill points)/x
So climb might be ((Strength + Agility + athletics)/2 + 20 + skill points)/20

Aftermath is the winner for me. All that FGU complex goodness so you have stats and traits (traits being combativeness, Esthetics, athletics etc) hundreds of skills with arcane formulae. 30 Hit locations with piecemeal armour rules that vary for different weapon types. Complex rules for survival, foraging, radiation, disease, laser trauma cuased by water evaporation from laser wounds, weather, and of course the effect of wind direction on bow fire.

Aftermath, absolutely loved it.

Gurps 3/4e and 4e D&D.

4e, I can't stand and plan to never play again. Gurps, I put up with because the rest of my gaming group enjoys it. Still intensely dislike chargen, disadvantages, and the extreme levels of complexity that can be piled on top of Gurps.

Quote from: gonster;663025Air War was the hardest game I have ever played, but I was in 7th grade when I played it.

Air War and ASL in the hex and chit boardgame division.

For RPGs, Aftermath and Space Opera.

GURPS 3ed Vehicle book. A bunch of equations to build stuff, but man did I love it.

Quote from: KenHR;663008I'm with you.  But not many others are.  I used to tutor algebra for college undergrads; they could barely do multiplication without begging for their calculators.  That was about 10 years ago...don't want to think what the situation is like now.

Hell 10 years ago people whined to high heaven about subtraction on RPGnet and the like.

Nah, My daughter is 8 and I have taught her up to her 20 times table. She still stumbles on the top end eg. (18 x 15) or (17x 19) but I will have that beaten out of her by secondard school. :)

Another thiong I liked about FGU was that weapon damage extrapolted from real world physics.
So to work out the damage of a firearm (this is in Aftermath but also daredevils and others) you worked out the kinetic energy of the round and then divided it out to get dice damage.
I used the same model myself later for a modern merc game I wrote when i was a kid but I went to momentum of the round as reading the medical text books I go t the impression that trasfer of momemtum was a better measure than transfer of energy as very fast rounds pass through the body and only transfer a fraction of their energy whilst slow heavy rounds, like a webley .455 practially stop dead and trasfer all their energy (but based on 1/2mv^2 a high speed round has much more energy).
the difficult thing back in the 80s was getting hold of the data and the Encyclopedia of modern small arms was the best book I ever stole from the library

Quote from: Sacrosanct;662989Probably Top Secret.

What do you normally play? Uno? TS is not a complicated game.

A Time of War, the new(ish) Battletech RPG. Inexplicably complex, with no real payoff. I ended up just making characters using a quick-n-dirty d6 hack that directly corresponded to piloting and gunnery skills in the minis game and ditched that pos. It's too hard to even use as background material due to the shitty layout.

Someone else mentioned SFB...easily my favorite game, and it's insanely complicated, but you know that going in.

Quote from: RPGPundit;662968Which was the most mechanically complex game you ever participated in (playing, or GMing)?

And, importantly, did you like it?

RPGPundit

Chivalry and Sorcery 3e/4e -- complicated, but flavourful. I like it.

Hero 5e -- complicated, bland, and since I don't care about balance, anyway, it's all for nothing

Quote from: 1989;663050Hero 5e -- complicated, bland, and since I don't care about balance, anyway, it's all for nothing

Gotta agree with you here, and I like HERO. 6th edition is one of the best designed games I've ever seen, and yet provides no compelling reason to play due to a complete lack of flavor. I wrote up a fairly extensive SciFi campaign using Star Hero, but ended up just using Traveller because it was...I dunno, more gritty and realistic? The more I play RPGs, the more I'm a fan of systems tailored for genre; the "universal" system just doesn't work.

Quote from: Benoist;662976I think this honor would be bestowed to Rolemaster with at least elements of Companions I, II, III, IV and VII involved...

Same here. I ran a several year campaign with sometimes between 8-15 players (!!!), and it worked because I distributed tables to different players to help manage combat.

Hard to decide which were the most complicated as a player - Aftermath, Space Opera, Timelords (1st edition by BTRC), Bureau 13/Fringeworthy/Incursions (all Tri-Tac system).  But, I had fun with all of them.  I've run Timelords, Bureau 13, Fringeworthy, and Incursions with their original systems and it was tough going, but yes we had fun.

Now, I'll run those settings, but I'll use either GURPS or BRP for the system.

Quote from: estar;662987SPI's Dragonquest and Universe. RPGs made by wargame companies are a class into themselves.

Not exactly hard.  But I detest having to convert PC attributes and skill values to another number range to roll against at every skill check.

Rolemaster
Powers & Perils
Champions 3e (only edition I've played)
Aliens RPG

Quote from: jibbajibba;663029FGU standard system for Skill score is -  ((Stat + Stat + Trait)/y + optional number) + accrued skill points)/x
So climb might be ((Strength + Agility + athletics)/2 + 20 + skill points)/20

Nope, that's not it.  FGU was primarily a fulfilment / vanity press house.  Lee Gold of Alarums and Excursions fame and author of Land of the Rising Sun and GURPS Japan designed Lands of Adventure as her ultimate rpg.  It had a sourcebook covering Arthurian England and Greek Myth.  I've really got to get up to The Sentry Box and
pick up the copy they've had on their shelves for the last thirty years.  :D

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;663062Not exactly hard.  But I detest having to convert PC attributes and skill values to another number range to roll against at every skill check.

Or you can just write down the result the first time you work it out.  But IRRC the per rank multipier did change to reflect the difficulty sometimes.  Don't take my word for it, it's been years.

Quote from: 1989;663050Chivalry and Sorcery 3e/4e -- complicated, but flavourful. I like it.

Yeah, great system except that a first level fighter who puts 25 points into Strength and weilds a maul can kill trolls in a single blow.  I like so much about C&S 3e but there are some holes that are hard to plug.

Still, why fight when you can bring a case of liquor at the bottom of the supply cart and use it to bribe the orcs?

Quote from: jibbajibba;663029Aftermath is the winner for me. All that FGU complex goodness so you have stats and traits (traits being combativeness, Esthetics, athletics etc) hundreds of skills with arcane formulae. 30 Hit locations with piecemeal armour rules that vary for different weapon types. Complex rules for survival, foraging, radiation, disease, laser trauma cuased by water evaporation from laser wounds, weather, and of course the effect of wind direction on bow fire.

Aftermath, absolutely loved it.

Where do I sign up?

I kid.  I tried that game when it first came out, but settled for The Morrow Project (the pre-BRP version).  More of a sourcebook than a game.

Quote from: JeremyR;663013West End Games had to come up with a simpler version of the D6 system because people (at cons) apparently struggled with adding up d6s.

I believe that was their legend system. I was shocked when I heard about it, but I've only had one, maybe two, players who got confused adding dice together.

I was going to run a Lands of Adventure game set in Classical Greece. We rolled up characters and it just kind of fell apart. We played two sessions and then personal problems got in the way of the game. It's a shame because the party looked like it might be pretty interesting. I don't have my copy anymore. I remember the game being complex, but not more complex than Chivalry and Sorcery 1st or 2nd ed.

I've run C&S many times and it use to be my preferred fantasy game for most of the 80s. Still have my copies of 1st and 2nd edition.

The most complex game I've run that I didn't enjoy would be Space Opera. I had already been playing/running Traveller for a couple of years so Space Opera felt like lots more complication without any real payoff. I didn't think Rolemaster was overly complex, but I wasn't fond of the endless charts.

Bleah, sorry, I realize I'm rambling so let's shut this down.

Quote from: David Johansen;663075Or you can just write down the result the first time you work it out.  But IRRC the per rank multipier did change to reflect the difficulty sometimes.  Don't take my word for it, it's been years.

I just looked at the combat rules for Universe.  Painful.  Anyway, lots of squaring of numbers going on.  And charts to get new modifiers from.  And each skill has rules of its own to look up.

I never could get anyone to play this game when it first came out.  I liked the world generation bit from it though.

As for complex games no one ever playeed surely Eoris is in with a shout - http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15093.phtml

Powers & Perils. We didn't even make it beyond character creation.
Followed up by Aftermath and then Chivalry & Sorcery. Still, at least we actually played (and enjoyed) both of those.

Quote from: David Johansen;663077Yeah, great system except that a first level fighter who puts 25 points into Strength and weilds a maul can kill trolls in a single blow.  I like so much about C&S 3e but there are some holes that are hard to plug.

Earlier editions were worst. 1st edition far, far worse, and even more worse when you used the Vikings books. We had a 1st level priest of Odin who could kick a Nazgul to death in half a turn with his bare foot (with over 100% chance to hit), and couldn't die during the fight (but would afterwards if a fatal wounds were inflicted).

Quote from: David Johansen;663077Still, why fight when you can bring a case of liquor at the bottom of the supply cart and use it to bribe the orcs?

You know the reason the orcs only charge a toll of one copper piece? Because if it's higher, they can't count that high, and they can't tell coppy from silver or gold. Or cow dung, half the time.

Quote from: Jason Coplen;663084I believe that was their legend system. I was shocked when I heard about it, but I've only had one, maybe two, players who got confused adding dice together.

I've known people (one in particular) who have no problem with it, but insist on adding them up out loud, one at a time.

GURPS 3E Revised. As a player I enjoyed it, as a GM I had to simplify some stuff to find it enjoyable. I'm fine with its char gen.

MERPS

Quote from: Libertad;6629773rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons. :)

+1

Well, 3.x/Pathfinder. A horrible mess of assumptions and other stuff that I just couldn't grok.

Quote from: KenHR;663008I'm with you.  But not many others are.  I used to tutor algebra for college undergrads; they could barely do multiplication without begging for their calculators.  That was about 10 years ago...don't want to think what the situation is like now.

Hell 10 years ago people whined to high heaven about subtraction on RPGnet and the like.

It still goes on apparently...

As for "Maths is hard, call the waaambulance!" I teach in a Junior High School (12 -15 in age). Classes there where Deriving Quadratic Formula: x2 + 6x + 10 = 0

Seeing that on the board made my brain hurt! Though I could do it once, I seem to have forgotten.

undoubtedly burning wheel. i fucking hated every minute of it. it was the most un-fun rpg experience i have ever had.

Rolemaster certainly. I enjoyed the campaign as a player but I would never run such a monstrosity. Charts upon charts for everything.

Also, tedious chargen combined with a randomly lethal combat system is not a good mix. I don't mind frequent character death but combined with that much  pain in creating a new one its a waste of time.

Space Opera. Character generation took an entire day, and mostly involved plotting out half our character's lives, doing shit-loads of math, and deciding what university courses they took. Played one session and it was more work than fun. Space Opera was like taking a university course on a really boring subject when you're 12.

Comparatively, character generation in Chivalry and Sorcery wasn't so bad. However, we never did more than make characters for C&S.

Just to echo some of the previous ones.

Space Opera - OMG complicated but I learned a lot about astrophysics from its space and planetary generation system.

Tri-Tac systems - Fringeworthy, Bureau 13, Incursion etc. All great games with great backgrounds / settings but hell of a difficult combat system. I loved it before I knew better :) very realistic in some ways in others didn't work so well.

Aftermath - Another overly complex combat system but realistic (As much as I could ever want) and deadly.

Warp World - had a magic system that was overly complex but had very definitive rules about it but it was something I could barely "Get" even though I love systems and rules.

Quote from: David Johansen;662993I honestly don't get that.  Fourth grade math is very basic skills for daily living math.  How people can even live in the modern world without using it is mystifying to me.

Quote from: Rincewind1;662994It's not about difficulty, it's about tediousness of it all.

The math underlying doing your taxes isn't hard either. And yet a lot people pay someone else to do it because it's a drag.

My buddies and I were unusual among RPGers in the 80s in that we weren't geeks in the math and science sense. We were into comics and reading and drawing, but had a strong aversion to anything in a game that looked mathy. Could I work out a formula in grade 8 math test? Yep. Did I want to work our formulas as part of fun-time playing games? Nope.

GURPS Lite

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;663187Tri-Tac systems - Fringeworthy, Bureau 13, Incursion etc. All great games with great backgrounds / settings but hell of a difficult combat system. I loved it before I knew better :) very realistic in some ways in others didn't work so well.

Definitely these.

When I tell people about the damage system (roll a d20 to hit, roll percentage dice for hit location, then roll d6s for exact hit location, roll damage, count points of damage as bullets pass through body and encounter internal organs/bones/arteries/etc., roll on subsequent tables such as "Spleen Damage" and "Bone Damage" when appropriate, then roll for hydrostatic shock, etc.) they think I'm joking or exaggerating.

Edged weapons are just as bad, with rolls to determine what percentage of a blade strikes the target, modified by a blade sharpness multiplier.

A simple fistfight between a player character an an NPC thug took almost half an hour to resolve and resulted in broken teeth, crushed noses, contusions, etc. absurdly detailed down to the specific section of the body.

It's awesomely capped off with a "This system is not recommended for NPCs" caveat.

Good times...

Hands down for me was Phoenix Command published by Leading Edge Games.

I don't remember who said on the thread that they felt like Rolemaster wasn't that complicated. I come from the exact same place actually: I think RM is actually fairly easy to run when you have a minimum of organization (marking pages with relevant weapon charts and criticals, and the like). When we played it with that 12 year old friend who was our GM* - first game mastering on his part I'll add, and no problem whatsoever playing the game -, that's what he did: he used tapes of different colors to mark the pages and it ran super-smoothly, in fact.

It's when you add all the Companions and Laws this and that that it becomes exponentially complex, mostly, if memory serves, by front-loading a whole bunch of shit during character creation which makes it last for hours, and hair-splitting things further and further when you level up, like ranks in skills, spell lists and whatnot.

* The guy I talked about earlier who ran the game with all the Companions and stuff was a different guy, a few years later.

Quote from: Drohem;663218Hands down for me was Phoenix Command published by Leading Edge Games.

I never actually played Phoenix Command, but from reading it certainly seemed like the most complex.  

For actually played, it's probably a toss-up between Champions (Hero System) and Aftermath.  I loved Champions and played it for years and in many variations.  However, Aftermath was a mess that I didn't particularly enjoy. I remember trying to use the combat flowchart and getting hopelessly bogged down.

Quote from: Haffrung;663188My buddies and I were unusual among RPGers in the 80s in that we weren't geeks in the math and science sense. We were into comics and reading and drawing, but had a strong aversion to anything in a game that looked mathy. Could I work out a formula in grade 8 math test? Yep. Did I want to work our formulas as part of fun-time playing games? Nope.

Exactly.  And doing math just to get a straight yes or no answer from an NPC is a drag.

I've played or read just about everything listed in thread with but few exceptions. None ever impressed me as complex although they had other fatal failings.

Given that I don't consider any of them complex, I can't really pick a most complex one- however going by the sheer number of rules D&D is the standout consistently over the years.

I'd have to nominate Phoenix Command and Hârnmaster. The former is obvious. The latter is not so complex in play, but keeping track of separate armour values for your knees, elbows, hands, and feet is a little over the top. And varying skill talents by zodiac sign (sunsign in the parlance of the game) is pretty extreme detail.

That said, I had enormous fun with both for years.

I seem to be fortunate in not playing "complicated" games.  But then I don't consider HERO that complicated.
GURPS I do.  To me, it attempts to do the same thing as HERO, but with even less intuitive math.  But then, I've never actually played GURPS.
I've played Palladium, and while that's not precisely complicated, it requires too much number-crunching for what you get out of it.

My nominee would probably be Rolemaster in the Middle-Earth version, which I played for a few weeks with a group.  There's a lot of figures and tables that you have to consult, and in great respect they get in the way.  Fortunately I wasn't playing a spellcaster, so I didn't have to specialize in Bone Ways, Organ Ways, Prostate Ways or any of that.

JG

For games in general, I'm going to go with Advanced Squad Leader. (Which I only played once, but there it is.)

For RPGs specifically, I think Shadowrun 4th Edition gets the nod: It's got at least 4-5 full-fledged sub-systems that are each as complicated as all-the-bells-and-whistles combat in AD&D or D&D3.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;663479For games in general, I'm going to go with Advanced Squad Leader. (Which I only played once, but there it is.)

For RPGs specifically, I think Shadowrun 4th Edition gets the nod: It's got at least 4-5 full-fledged sub-systems that are each as complicated as all-the-bells-and-whistles combat in AD&D or D&D3.

Yeah, in HERO 6th, 400 points is enough to make a full-fledged superhero.  in SR 4, you need 400 points to make a slightly tougher-than-the-average guy beginning runner.  From what I've seen of the previews, Shadowrun 5th Edition goes back to the priorities system for character generation, but I haven't seen how combat works yet.

JG

Mage the Ascension for GURPS seems pretty complicated.  And that's just the source material, before any GURPS complications are added.

C&S 2nd ed, and I loved it. Madness, sheer madness.

Got to be Malifaux, the rules often make no sense at all, and there's no way to quickly look up conflicts. Absolutely love the game though and with v2 releasing soon hopefully there will be more sense to the rules.

Earthly Walker

Depending on how you measure it, the most complicated RPG I've ever played is either AD&D1e with all the bells and whistles, or else Rolemaster 2 with most of the companions and supplements.

The thing is that Rolemaster 2 is actually really simple.  There's only one mechanic: you roll d100, add your bonus, and consult the relevant table.  What makes it seem complicated is (a) working out the bonuses involves a lot of elements and stages, (b) character creation is very detailed, and (c) there are a lot of different tables to consult.

I solved this by producing a hyperlinked excel document with all the tables in.  Nowadays I don't even open the rulebook for Rolemaster.  We all just have laptops or tablets with my excel sheet to hand.

Yes, I really love Rolemaster.

AD&D1e/OSRIC is more complicated really because there's no attempt at a unified mechanic.  And yes, I really love that too.

The most complicated game I've ever played is Advanced Squad Leader----and by the way, anyone who loved ASL the way I did should be downloading the free edition of Steel Panthers: World at War v8.403 with the Enhanced modification.

I remember the first time I played AD&D 1st Edition with a group and we didn't use the books.  I was shocked that a game could be played that way.  The DM was a master at it.  In 1979, it was just assumed we would need the books hung on lanyards the rest of our lives.

In terms of being incomprehensible, my vote would have to be that new Borgstrom game. Following the thread on RPGnet, where poor mechanics are couched in cutesy terms, and even her most strident fans have difficulty deciphering just what the hell the game means, is a study in someone having no idea how to write rules for an RPG.

Seriously, it's something along the lines of:

"Trust Karma can be given at a second levels if a Bond is activated. Players may also frame scenes if Resolution: Resolve if named at Level 1 ("Oh, Hello There, Creature of Cuddly Finite Darkness"). Level 0 would result in less Resolution, meaning perhaps that the Resolution affected their Bond in some adverse way. Meanwhile, Boundary Issues can involve a Quest, but only if they do not infringe on another player's current Trust ^_^.  If a Monster or Abject Legend is involved, however, they can push their Named Demise to a Perk Bead, providing they (say, Wojek the Rabbit-Tossing Frump), then players can Show Their Hand (or exquisite fur-lined mitten ^_^). Of course, that means a Shonen Card is still a possibility, provided the Card Path has progressed to 1 or 3".

...

Yeah, I'd think that's a decent approximation of that style.

Mechanics-wise, probably a Rolemaster FRP game with all the options turned on. I use RM2 now, and don't go overboard on the options, which makes a huge difference.

Aftermath, Space Opera, Rolemaster.

But I am sure I am overlooking a few.

Quote from: David Johansen;663075Nope, that's not it.  FGU was primarily a fulfilment / vanity press house.

FGU had a 'house' system used in several of their games: Bushido, Aftermath, and Daredevils were all pretty similar under the hood. I think all those games shared the same creators, so no surprise.

The original Hackmaster, with very little disregarded. It was modular. You could use what you want. I used almost all of it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;662968Which was the most mechanically complex game you ever participated in (playing, or GMing)?

And, importantly, did you like it?

RPGPundit

Dum & Drag 4th edition.

Was a player in the campaign. It was stupidly complicated where it didn't need to be.

Wound up hating it.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;663488Mage the Ascension for GURPS seems pretty complicated.  And that's just the source material, before any GURPS complications are added.

See, that's what I mean by GURPS being more user-unfriendly than HERO.  In GURPS conversions of White Wolf, both Vampires and Mages had to buy a special power called "Immune to the Delirium" to reflect that magically Awakened characters are immune to the hysterical amnesia that affects humans who see Werewolves in full shifter form.
In HERO, rather than buy a whole new big and expensive power for those characters, you'd just apply a Limitation to the Werewolf's Delirium: "Not vs. Awakened Beings."

JG

Quote from: Zachary The First;663530Yeah, I'd think that's a decent approximation of that style.

Sounds like Fizbin. If not for the rep her settings have, you almost sold me on the game...

For me, Mythus would certainly be up there among most complex I tried to play. Can't say I enjoyed it.

I have a could sense what everyone will enjoy as a group, which varies considerably per group.  So, I don't have this problem.  However, there was the time I reffed a few sessions of Traveller: New Era.  The players didn't like the shear number of rolls in combat at all.  So, I suppose that would be my choice of poor matching of the group's interest and game.

A fan made d20 modern variant of that Naruto anime.
...
It was bad.

Space Opera.

Programmable calculator with scientific functions required for character creation?  

Task resolution wasn't a picnic either.

The setting was the a hodgepodge of science fantasy tropes.  

If it wasn't 1980 and we didn't know better, we never would of played it.

For the time, it was messy, but only a bit worse than the rest of the field worth playing.

Quote from: estar;662987SPI's Dragonquest and Universe. RPGs made by wargame companies are a class into themselves.

For the time period, they really weren't that bad.  Especially if you came from the Grognard side of things.  Universe actually has a lot of redeeming qualities.  

All of you people who are sissy about rules need to go back to the roots of gaming first, Grognardia!  GO READ AND PLAY SQUAD LEADER FIRST then tell me how complicated the modern rpg rules are today.  You will then see how much better games are today.

Quote from: MoonHunter;664378Space Opera.

...

The setting was the a hodgepodge of science fantasy tropes.  

That was the problem with Space Opera. Not that it wasn't a good game, but rather, it was about five or six good games, thrown in to a blender set on puree. Sort the small bits long enough, and you can peel a good game out of it.

Chivalry & Sorcery I was beat out by Rolemaster, which of course never rivaled the combat calculations required to play The Morrow Project.

While I liked the Morrow Project, I detested the combat system and converted the complex penetration and damage calculations into a few simpler charts that speeded up play considerably.

Quote from: GameDaddy;664415Chivalry & Sorcery I was beat out by Rolemaster, which of course never rivaled the combat calculations required to play The Morrow Project.

While I liked the Morrow Project, I detested the combat system and converted the complex penetration and damage calculations into a few simpler charts that speeded up play considerably.

I seem to remember the older version of The Morrow Project 3rd edition being more complicated than the revised version that threw in BRP skill checks.

Quote from: RandallS;663031Air War and ASL in the hex and chit boardgame division.

For RPGs, Aftermath and Space Opera.

Lou Zochi's Mig Killers was so much better than Air War. I played Air War once, and found the game did not accurately depict jet flight and combat characteristics. Mig Killers did, and was so well built, I could predict the results of actual air combat by running simulations using Mig Killers.

I never found ASL complicated at all. Each successive set of rules built on the previous set... and just added new features and units. It was certainly much easier than many RPGs, but sadly only focused on One World War (Instead of all the wars of history) so its application in wargaming was very limited.

Best Wargames, I would have to go with SPI's Strategy I, and from Avalon Hill, Squad Leader & ASL, Wooden Ships & Iron Men, And Submarine. Mig Killers is right up there though almost on par, as is Panzer Leader/Panzer Blitz.

GDW's Europa series including Drang Nach Osten, and Unentschieden were phenomenally good, however the setup time, and time it took to complete one two-week turn, could run several days or even a week or more.

See my earlier post on complicated RPGs.

Best RPGs... 0D&D, Runequest, Traveller. Still very much my favorites. Fast Play, lots of opportunities for fun.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;664417I seem to remember the older version of The Morrow Project 3rd edition being more complicated than the revised version that threw in BRP skill checks.

Hrrrm? I have the original edition, and 3rd. First book of the 3rd edition is virtually identical to the 1st edition (for combat), except the errata has been included, and it was updated with more ammunition types (that two decades of actual weapons development added), and more encounters. I have never seen the revised edition.

omg, just looking at these combat tables again is making me dizzy.

I bought 3rd edition years ago (1984?).  Lost it in real life somewhere.  Then bought 3rd edition again about 3 years ago.  It has "revised" stamped on it.  Has Chaosium rules in it.  Some different artwork, too.

Quote from: MoonHunter;664378All of you people who are sissy about rules need to go back to the roots of gaming first, Grognardia!  GO READ AND PLAY SQUAD LEADER FIRST then tell me how complicated the modern rpg rules are today.  You will then see how much better games are today.

I only played STAR FLEET BATTLES.  Which I understand is the training wheels for Advanced Squad Leader.

JG

All Avalon Hill games were hard.

Quote from: James Gillen;664425I only played STAR FLEET BATTLES.  Which I understand is the training wheels for Advanced Squad Leader.

JG

You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones, and used Advanced Squad Leader for each boarding party combat.

Quote from: Bill;664486You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones, and used Advanced Squad Leader for each boarding party combat.

A full Federation & Empire campaign, using all races, including players for each pirate cartel, SFB for battles, ASL for boarding party combat. That's a game I could get behind.

Quote from: Brad;664490A full Federation & Empire campaign, using all races, including players for each pirate cartel, SFB for battles, ASL for boarding party combat. That's a game I could get behind.

I forgot about F&E. Nice.





Next get two sets of F&E and play side by side...Mirror Universe....

Quote from: Bill;664491I forgot about F&E. Nice.





Next get two sets of F&E and play side by side...Mirror Universe....

That might literally play out slower than real time...1 year per 6 month turn.

Quote from: Bill;664486You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones,

With the miniatures rules, with a Klingon fleet coming around a gas giant in perfect formation.

Quote from: Brad;664490A full Federation & Empire campaign, using all races, including players for each pirate cartel, SFB for battles, ASL for boarding party combat. That's a game I could get behind.

Yeah, but after about three weeks, you'll realize you're still in the first turn, and it will get a little old.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;664427All Avalon Hill games were hard.

No, they weren't.  Not by a long shot.

Quote from: KenHR;664526No, they weren't.  Not by a long shot.

Outdoors Survival, the game itself, isn't exactly hard to play. :)

Quote from: Bill;664486You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones, and used Advanced Squad Leader for each boarding party combat.

I guess I qualify has having lived. :D

A bunch of us were rabid enough SFB fans that I got drafted to write a turn management and damage allocation program for DOS. Then I lugged my DOS PC to the game site to use it when we played. Boy the transport may have been a hassle but being able to use that program was sure worth it.

It stepped through each phase of the turn based on the consolidated listing in the commander's edition. I included the rules references as well. Damage Allocation asked for the number of damage inflicted and when it called up a destroyed system, it remember that it was destroyed and moved to the next column on the DAC.

Quote from: estar;664540I guess I qualify has having lived. :D

A bunch of us were rabid enough SFB fans that I got drafted to write a turn management and damage allocation program for DOS. Then I lugged my DOS PC to the game site to use it when we played. Boy the transport may have been a hassle but being able to use that program was sure worth it.

It stepped through each phase of the turn based on the consolidated listing in the commander's edition. I included the rules references as well. Damage Allocation asked for the number of damage inflicted and when it called up a destroyed system, it remember that it was destroyed and moved to the next column on the DAC.

StarFleet Battles has its glorious moments.

I once saw a Kzinti cruiser and a Gorn Cruiser destroy each other at the same time. Both had lethal inbound waves of Drones and Plasma Torpedoes, but neither captain was willing to shoot at the seeking weapons. Both ships died, with the Kzinti claiming 'Victory' because his drones impacted one impulse before the plasmatorpedoes hit.

Glorious!

Quote from: Bill;664546StarFleet Battles has its glorious moments.

I once saw a Kzinti cruiser and a Gorn Cruiser destroy each other at the same time. Both had lethal inbound waves of Drones and Plasma Torpedoes, but neither captain was willing to shoot at the seeking weapons. Both ships died, with the Kzinti claiming 'Victory' because his drones impacted one impulse before the plasmatorpedoes hit.

Glorious!

We played a F&E campaign for a while, using SFB for all the combats. Yeah, we had some spectacular moments. We had a battle at a battle station, with several dozen ships on each side, mostly small (destroyers, frigates and pseudofighters), with a lot of nitpicky sniping, until somebody concentrated fire on something fairly large and blew it up, just as the fleets were meeting up. That started a chain reaction that took out everything on both sides (including the battle station), except one lone cruiser, that had no shields on any side, and about three excess damage boxes left.

But the most memorable one was the one time that somebody got to use a fully equipped Kzinit SSCS, and deploy everything, and get every drone on the map at the same time. Must have been 500 or more drone counters. Covered the entire map. Then, on the far end of the map, somebody else blew up a ship that turned out to be the target for all of them, and the Kizint player spent about a half an hour picking up counters before we could continue.

And the guy who figured out how to really work the campaign rules with the Fed fighters. IIRC, 1:6 of fighter pilots were aces, and 1:6 of those were legendary aces, or something like that. So he transferred all the legendary aces to the same carrier, and used them to clear mindfields. Cuz he got free production on a certain number of fighters every turn, and the legendary ace pilots always come back.

Quote from: Brad;664490A full Federation & Empire campaign, using all races, including players for each pirate cartel, SFB for battles, ASL for boarding party combat. That's a game I could get behind.

I used to watch a group of guys do this on weekends while going through Navy Nuke training. They would start on Friday night and play until Sunday night, ordering in food and stopping only for bathroom breaks.

On average, for a SFB combat, they would have gotten through less than twenty turns over the weekend.

Sounds like 8 players game of Twilight Imperium all - right :D.

A great boardgame, though also quite complex.

Quote from: GameDaddy;664419Lou Zochi's Mig Killers was so much better than Air War. I played Air War once, and found the game did not accurately depict jet flight and combat characteristics. Mig Killers did, and was so well built, I could predict the results of actual air combat by running simulations using Mig Killers.

I never found ASL complicated at all. Each successive set of rules built on the previous set... and just added new features and units. It was certainly much easier than many RPGs, but sadly only focused on One World War (Instead of all the wars of history) so its application in wargaming was very limited.

Best Wargames, I would have to go with SPI's Strategy I, and from Avalon Hill, Squad Leader & ASL, Wooden Ships & Iron Men, And Submarine. Mig Killers is right up there though almost on par, as is Panzer Leader/Panzer Blitz.

GDW's Europa series including Drang Nach Osten, and Unentschieden were phenomenally good, however the setup time, and time it took to complete one two-week turn, could run several days or even a week or more.

See my earlier post on complicated RPGs.

Best RPGs... 0D&D, Runequest, Traveller. Still very much my favorites. Fast Play, lots of opportunities for fun.

Check your six, jet age. Is supposed to be pretty sweet for a jet war gaming. I haven't had a chance to give it a go thought.:(  My old group did run a short game where we used mechwarrior for the RPG part of the game and a mix of classic and cliks battle tech/mechwarrior for the mecha part. Its been several years saince we did that. But man good stuff I do remember.:)

Quote from: Rincewind1;664597Sounds like 8 players game of Twilight Imperium all - right :D.

A great boardgame, though also quite complex.

I love Twilight Imperium 3 with the second add-on.  Haven't tried the latest add-on yet.  Number of players = number of hours the game will take to finish.  Get out the 4 x 9 or 6 x 6 table.  Not a hard game (playing the default rules).  Just lots of cool things to do during ones turn.

Quote from: Bill;664486You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones, and used Advanced Squad Leader for each boarding party combat.

Wonder what the Gorn Marines would look like.

jg

Quote from: Bill;664486You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones, and used Advanced Squad Leader for each boarding party combat.

I used to think that was the pinnacle until I played _Attack vector Tactical_ and discovered that firing a single torpedo was more complex than whole games of SFB.

This has gone pretty far afield from role-play games.  I recall that squad leader was considered a beginner war game. It really is too.  The separate scenarios spoon fed the specific rules gradually.  Actually, since it has become such a grab bag of games, the most complex game I have personally experienced was reading chess master books.  In a sense, they were a mismatch with my level of interest in the game.  Sure I get it all fine, but do I want to spend time with them? Not really.

Traveller 5.  It challenges you to make it into an RPG first in order to play it.  If it wins any awards, it'll be for that.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;664936Traveller 5.  It challenges you to make it into an RPG first in order to play it.  If it wins any awards, it'll be for that.

Is Game Empire in SD on Clairemont Mesa still going Shawn?  That store always had a good selection of games.  Since I mention chess, good sets of those there too.  There is a really great telescope store near by it.  A rare type of store.

I actually thought you would have been one of the ones to be glad about Traveller 5 here.  I just use the original game.  It has the spark of creativity.  I think making things with Fire, Fusion, Steal for a short campaign was my last use of the later editions for an actual live game.

Quote from: Kuroth;664937Is Game Empire in SD on Clairemont Mesa still going Shawn?  That store always had a good selection of games.  Since I mention chess, good sets of those there too.  There is a really great telescope store near by it.  A rare type of store.

I actually thought you would have been one of the ones to be glad about Traveller 5 here.  I just use the original game.  It has the spark of creativity.  I think making things with Fire, Fusion, Steal for a short campaign was my last use of the later editions for an actual live game.

I go to that game store about once a week.  It's always busy with the usual magic card and 40k and Pathfinder people.  They got Mongoose Traveller in stock.  Or at least they did a week ago when I was in there.  I beta-tested Traveller 5.  And that was enough for me.  Traveller 4 is way better, and I don't even like Traveller 4.  Mongoose is all I play now.  Easy to ref and easier to play.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;664940I go to that game store about once a week.  It's always busy with the usual magic card and 40k and Pathfinder people.  They got Mongoose Traveller in stock.  Or at least they did a week ago when I was in there.  I beta-tested Traveller 5.  And that was enough for me.  Traveller 4 is way better, and I don't even like Traveller 4.  Mongoose is all I play now.  Easy to ref and easier to play.

Very cool to read the store is busy.  They have those big miniature table in the back.  All ages there too.  Game Towne in Old Town has been there for like decades, but think I went there once. ha   Old Town was inconvenient.

I was just talking to a friend about T4.  I liked The Chris Foss Art!  Ya, whatever, I'm in the minority. ha   I have read Mongoose, and I really appreciate that they are using the system in other settings.

Quote from: Kuroth;664941Very cool to read the store is busy.  They have those big miniature table in the back.  All ages there too.  Game Towne in Old Town has been there for like decades, but think I went there once. ha   Old Town was inconvenient.

I was just talking to a friend about T4.  I liked The Chris Foss Art!  Ya, whatever, I'm in the minority. ha   I have read Mongoose, and I really appreciate that they are using the system in other settings.

I went to Game Town back in 1981.  Finding parking was harsh though.  Never went back there.  I remember it being a small cramped place for Grognard wargamers with their chits.  D&D (the original edition with the three stapled books) was there on the shelves.  But I was into Classic Traveller back then.

John Harris should do the artwork for Traveller some day.

For Mongoose, Chthonian Stars is very cool.  It adds a few things though to the rule system like advantages/disadvantages.  But I don't use them.  Just the Traveller characteristics and skills is enough.

Oddly enough my distributor tells me that the controversy has actually boosted sales of T5 beyond all expectations.

Quote from: David Johansen;664960Oddly enough my distributor tells me that the controversy has actually boosted sales of T5 beyond all expectations.

I'm not sure if T5 is perfect for me, but I'll probably buy it eventuality none the less.  I'm happy that Marc is enjoying success from it!

Quote from: James Gillen;664675Wonder what the Gorn Marines would look like.

jg

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS865Im_IGMpqa2xzjDlA0LM4ql5NezywbVI7VSVjx4Tm4BYPyJ)

Duh. That shameful shameful Lucas :D.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;664936Traveller 5.  It challenges you to make it into an RPG first in order to play it.  If it wins any awards, it'll be for that.

"It's not a roleplaying game, it's a toolkit."

"Then why does the introductions say it's a roleplaying game with everything you need to play?"

So far, the greatest amusement value is watching the fanwank trying to admit it isn't badly broken.

I'm having trouble parsing that last sentance.

I'll have to run it myself to decide if I think it's badly broken.

There's things that bother me but I'm not sure they're important.

I don't know.  It's too big.  I don't love the combat system.  I love the maker thingies.  Especially the little online version roboject wrote.

Starship combat seems poorly explained, barely getting more than a sequence and a stack of charts.

The notion that it would be a good starting point for a new player is the funniest idea I've heard in a long time.

Quote from: Brad J. Murray;664748I used to think that was the pinnacle until I played _Attack vector Tactical_ and discovered that firing a single torpedo was more complex than whole games of SFB.

Does it attempt to apply real physics?

Quote from: taustin;664570We played a F&E campaign for a while, using SFB for all the combats. Yeah, we had some spectacular moments. We had a battle at a battle station, with several dozen ships on each side, mostly small (destroyers, frigates and pseudofighters), with a lot of nitpicky sniping, until somebody concentrated fire on something fairly large and blew it up, just as the fleets were meeting up. That started a chain reaction that took out everything on both sides (including the battle station), except one lone cruiser, that had no shields on any side, and about three excess damage boxes left.

But the most memorable one was the one time that somebody got to use a fully equipped Kzinit SSCS, and deploy everything, and get every drone on the map at the same time. Must have been 500 or more drone counters. Covered the entire map. Then, on the far end of the map, somebody else blew up a ship that turned out to be the target for all of them, and the Kizint player spent about a half an hour picking up counters before we could continue.

And the guy who figured out how to really work the campaign rules with the Fed fighters. IIRC, 1:6 of fighter pilots were aces, and 1:6 of those were legendary aces, or something like that. So he transferred all the legendary aces to the same carrier, and used them to clear mindfields. Cuz he got free production on a certain number of fighters every turn, and the legendary ace pilots always come back.

I love the name "Space Control Ship"   Essentially a super heavy carrier that also has six gunboats docked to it.

This talk of Star Fleet Battles make me want get out my box of Star Trek: Starship Tactical Combat Simulator.  Pretty ok wargame/boardgame hybrid.  I have been long since, like many many years, tired of Star Trek too.

Aftermath. it was complex but I like it.
 FTL:2448 also complex but again I like it.
 D&D called 4th edition complex and I didn't/don't like it.
 Gurps love their source books can't get into the rule set.
 I haven't played T-5 yet. I think that one can wait a while. I hear it is not the greatest version ever.

Quote from: Bill;665050Does it attempt to apply real physics?

Yeah.

Here's a tutorial video:
http://vimeo.com/65649481

Quote from: David Johansen;665025I'm having trouble parsing that last sentance.

Which word don't you understand?

Quote from: David Johansen;665025I'll have to run it myself to decide if I think it's badly broken.

After 30 years of gaming, I won't.

Quote from: David Johansen;665025There's things that bother me but I'm not sure they're important.

Thinks like:

• An example of how to use various skills for interpersonal interactions (you know, stuff that most games would expect you to . . . roleplay) that involved several dozen die rolls, while at the same time
  
  
• Having no provision for tracking ammunition, because


• No matter how long the running gun fight continues, including running naked through the swamp for days, you always have enough ammo
  
  
• Unless the GM says otherwise, which he could just as easily do before the gunfight actually starts


• And in a melee combat, apparently, the more opponents you are fighting, the more likely you are to win.

Quote from: David Johansen;665025I don't know.  It's too big.  I don't love the combat system.  I love the maker thingies.

Except for the missing parts (like small craft).

Quote from: David Johansen;665025  Especially the little online version roboject wrote.

It does have some charms.

Quote from: David Johansen;665025Starship combat seems poorly explained, barely getting more than a sequence and a stack of charts.

The notion that it would be a good starting point for a new player is the funniest idea I've heard in a long time.

Yeah. And that's the point: it says in the introduction that it's not a good starting point, not a toolkit, no, it's a complete game ready to play.

Quote from: Bill;665050Does it attempt to apply real physics?

I'm not going to spend $50+ for a good laugh, but it says it does (in 3 dimensions, no less).

Of course, with fewer than four ships, 3D is pointless, but it looks like it's meant for (at least sometimes) more than that.

Quote from: Bill;665053I love the name "Space Control Ship"   Essentially a super heavy carrier that also has six gunboats docked to it.

That's Super Space Control. Ship. Fully loaded, with usable (speed 32) drones, it was several thousand BPV. We rarely played with more than a tenth of that.

e

Quote from: Kuroth;665062This talk of Star Fleet Battles make me want get out my box of Star Trek: Starship Tactical Combat Simulator.  Pretty ok wargame/boardgame hybrid.  I have been long since, like many many years, tired of Star Trek too.

And I'm suddenly thinking of Star Fleet Battle Manual. Never play that game with someone who can judge distance by eye, to a fraction of an inch, from a distance of 20 feet. Transporter bombs materializing on the ship silhouette. Not on the card, on the silhouette itself.

Quote from: taustin;665129

• An example of how to use various skills for interpersonal interactions (you know, stuff that most games would expect you to . . . roleplay) that involved several dozen die rolls, while at the same time
  
  
• Having no provision for tracking ammunition, because


• No matter how long the running gun fight continues, including running naked through the swamp for days, you always have enough ammo
  
  
• Unless the GM says otherwise, which he could just as easily do before the gunfight actually starts


• And in a melee combat, apparently, the more opponents you are fighting, the more likely you are to win.

I like that NPCs in Traveller 5 cannot be killed by pistols.  And how you can punch six NPCs in the face at the same time.  Round-house punch I guess.

Quote from: taustin;665129it says in the introduction that it's not a good starting point, not a toolkit, no, it's a complete game ready to play.

Traveller 5 is being advertised in online stores as the Ultimate version of Traveller, etc, etc.  False advertising for sure.  Heads will roll in a few months about this game.  Right now, it's still an edition war going on before this disaster of a game is even known to everyone.

Quote from: taustin;665132e

And I'm suddenly thinking of Star Fleet Battle Manual. Never play that game with someone who can judge distance by eye, to a fraction of an inch, from a distance of 20 feet. Transporter bombs materializing on the ship silhouette. Not on the card, on the silhouette itself.

That the players can use their actual physical talents as an edge in the game is sort of cool.  You see, this is how I get drawn into one of these games! ha

Quote from: Kuroth;665147That the players can use their actual physical talents as an edge in the game is sort of cool.  You see, this is how I get drawn into one of these games! ha

Me too.  And it progressed into Car Wars.  Trying to get an RPG character like me into the car.

Quote from: taustin;665129

• Having no provision for tracking ammunition, because


• No matter how long the running gun fight continues, including running naked through the swamp for days, you always have enough ammo
  
  
• Unless the GM says otherwise, which he could just as easily do before the gunfight actually starts

This is an odd change to make to the game, without at least some attempt to meet a middle ground.

Regarding ammunition, there is a rule in Dogs of War that I was thinking of bringing over to my first edition Traveller.  If a character rolls snake eyes and that would have been a miss (it is possible to roll two and hit with the right extreme modifiers) the character has run out of ammunition for the weapon or the weapon has jammed.  The character must get more ammunition from either an ally or some location (fallen enemy, ammunition case in stores, etcetera).  Snake eyes only for this effect, without further fumble type effects.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;665150Me too.  And it progressed into Car Wars.  Trying to get an RPG character like me into the car.

That one could use sighting as an edge.  I could see bros playing a game that has that aspect that would never play a standard strategy/tactical game.

Quote from: Kuroth;665151If a character rolls snake eyes and that would have been a miss (it is possible to roll two and hit with the right extreme modifiers) the character has run out of ammunition for the weapon or the weapon has jammed.  The character must get more ammunition from either an ally or some location (fallen enemy, ammunition case in stores, etcetera).  Snake eyes only for this effect, without further fumble type effects.

That's elegant.  You don't want to know what slapped-on kludge players are proposing to handle that in T5.

One cool option in Star Fleet Battles is a classic sub hunt, of a sorts.

If you have a third player acting as a judge, there is a system called tactical intelligence (I think that is what it is called)

The judge would track the positions of cloaked ships, fake plasma torpedoes, and manage the information each combatant is collecting baout the other side.

For example, you needed to be at a certain range to tell exactly what type of ship variant you were up against.

Did a Romulan vs ISC fleet battle that was amazing.

the ISC were in that truly epic fail "Echelon Formation" they favored, and the Romulan Fleet (that was smaller) was allowed to uncloak all over their Echeloned Ass.

It took forever but was amazing with the 'gm' keeping track of things that should be hidden.

Quote from: Kuroth;665147That the players can use their actual physical talents as an edge in the game is sort of cool.  You see, this is how I get drawn into one of these games! ha

Yeah, it was actually fun watching him do that at a convention, playing with complete strangers who thought they were good at the game. Before that, I was sure he was using the 12" floor tiles in his kitchen to cheat, but the convention tables were completely blank. It was scary, even when we were on the same side.

(I suspect it's a side effect of his dyslexia. So does he.)

Quote from: Kuroth;665151This is an odd change to make to the game, without at least some attempt to meet a middle ground.

Like the absence of rules for designing small craft, I suspect it's a matter of incompleteness rather than a deliberate choice. Despite the years of development and extensive beta testing, there's stuff missing. At least some of it because Marc Miller made a committment to the print version being under 700 pages.

Quote from: Kuroth;665151Regarding ammunition, there is a rule in Dogs of War that I was thinking of bringing over to my first edition Traveller.  If a character rolls snake eyes and that would have been a miss (it is possible to roll two and hit with the right extreme modifiers) the character has run out of ammunition for the weapon or the weapon has jammed.  The character must get more ammunition from either an ally or some location (fallen enemy, ammunition case in stores, etcetera).  Snake eyes only for this effect, without further fumble type effects.

Even that can be too often, I suspect[1]. Plus, it doesn't allow for the well prepared character. The guy who sticks a half loaded pistol in his pants pocket is as likely to run out of ammo as the guy who carries a backpack full of pre-loaded clips. Though it is better than the apparent official rules.

[1]But not nearly as bad as Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes, where, IIRC, an automatic weapon jammed on any roll of 5 or less on 3d6. We had one character that was convinced that a Mac 10 was the most useless weapon ever built, because, literally, every single time he fired one, it jammed on the second or third bullet. One time to the point where it required the skills of a professional gunsmith to fix. The gunsmith ran several clips through it without a problem, and handed it back. On the 2nd bullet, it jammed again. A game's gotta work at it to be less realistic than Top Secret.

Quote from: taustin;665129Which word don't you understand?

I know what the words mean but not in this sentance structure.

Quote from: taustin;665011"It's not a roleplaying game, it's a toolkit."

So far, the greatest amusement value is watching the fanwank trying to admit it isn't badly broken.

"trying to ADMIT it isn't badly broken"???  Sorry What?

Quote from: David Johansen;665272I know what the words mean but not in this sentance structure.

Perhaps Google can suggest a good remedical course in remedial english.

You should try that immediately then.

Quote from: Bill;665050Does it attempt to apply real physics?

No, it actually applies real physics.  Ranging from three dimensional combat and movement using a chart to figure distances to heat radiators being one of the most crucial systems on a ship.

Quote from: David Johansen;665272I know what the words mean but not in this sentance structure.

Quote from: taustin;665273Perhaps Google can suggest a good remedical course in remedial english.

:rotfl:

Quote from: David Johansen;665276You should try that immediately then.

I know you are, but what am I?

(I understood it perfectly.)

No opinion on Traveller, just a translation.

David, Taustin is saying that in his opinion, T5 is badly broken as a game system, to the point where he gets more entertainment out of watching Traveller fans try to claim the system is not broken, then he gets from the game itself.

One of the more perceived complex AD&D games I played was a campaign in a sophisticated political world, with mostly thief and magic using classes as characters, integrating battle system fully into the campaign where it was the default for the appropriate scenario.  The combination of a politically charged world, sneaky/tricky characters (Edit: bright players too, of course) and strategy war game for powers on the move made a big game.

Quote from: CRKrueger;665312No opinion on Traveller, just a translation.

David, Taustin is saying that in his opinion, T5 is badly broken as a game system, to the point where he gets more entertainment out of watching Traveller fans try to claim the system is not broken, then he gets from the game itself.

But that's not what he wrote at all.

Anyhow, I'm not denying T5 is a mess.  I think if you go back and look at all my posts on the subject I've been very critical of how Marc handled things even though I'm enthusiastic for the game itself.

I think the game says a great deal about what Marc feels is important in terms of structure and design.  But yes, it's a mess and he handled the beta and the kickstarter poorly.  I've repeatedly pointed to the kickstarter as the worst one I've ever seen.  I think his paranoia about illegal downloads and sneak peaks of an unfinished game has been the main cause of problems but I can't stress enough that his private circle of yes men / alpha testers have been like a millstone around his neck.

Even so, I am stoked to play it.  We'll see how no ammo tracking works in play.  IRRC Mega Traveller and T4 had it as an option.

Quote from: David Johansen;665344But that's not what he wrote at all.

But that's the specific sentence you said you didn't understand.

And you've now demonstrated why I didn't bother to explain it further.

Quote from: taustin;665350But that's the specific sentence you said you didn't understand.

And you've now demonstrated why I didn't bother to explain it further.

I had to ignore David.  I'm ignoring basically anyone here that is a Traveller 5 fanboy, in order to avoid having to do sanity rolls.  Traveller 5 is so complicated, that people are all OCD, AAD, and ADHD in love with it.  But the kicker is, there isn't really a game there.  Hopefully, all the T5 books will get bought so they can quickly be burned or buried or whatever and forgoten about.

Star Fleet Battles (back in the day) when the errata was scattered across various Nexus magazines (only some of which we happened to have) taught me just how dangerous errata can be.  The hundreds of pages of rules were bad enough without having multiple sources of changes to these rules scattered about.  

It was fun but complicated.  We did carrier battles that took all weekend.

In terms of RPGs, it depends on whether you include the full range of supplements in specific games.  Pathfinder/3.5 could get very complex with all of the books (70-odd for 3.5) but the core rules were pretty reasonable.  

GURPS had the ability to be made complex but that was always a decision.  My enjoyment faded when too many books and optional rules got included.  

But in terms of long term playing and painful complexity, Rolemaster plus companions had a ton of issues.  It's mechanics were easy but things like putting out actions as a percentage of a round, splitting out parries in a dynamic way, and experience for travel really led to an astonishing amount of book-keeping.  It could still be fun, but the book-keeping did not help with the fun.

Quote from: Votan;665359Star Fleet Battles (back in the day) when the errata was scattered across various Nexus magazines (only some of which we happened to have) taught me just how dangerous errata can be.  The hundreds of pages of rules were bad enough without having multiple sources of changes to these rules scattered about.  

It was an even better example of how dangerous expansions can be. By the time we gave up on it, we needed a hand truck to haul the box around.

Why are people going on and on about boardgames, miniatures games (like Starfleet Battles), and wargames - when the title of the thread clearly says :...most Complicated RPG You ever Played...?

Just Curious.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;665398Why are people going on and on about boardgames, miniatures games (like Starfleet Battles), and wargames - when the title of the thgread clearly says :...most Complicated RPG You ever Played...?

Just Curious.

- Ed C.

Because HackMaster wasn't a good enough answer.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;665402Because HackMaster wasn't a good enough answer.

Which HackMaster, the new one or the "4th Edition" that had crit charts that were more complicated than Rolemaster but not half as funny?

jg

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;665351I had to ignore David.  I'm ignoring basically anyone here that is a Traveller 5 fanboy, in order to avoid having to do sanity rolls.  Traveller 5 is so complicated, that people are all OCD, AAD, and ADHD in love with it.  But the kicker is, there isn't really a game there.  Hopefully, all the T5 books will get bought so they can quickly be burned or buried or whatever and forgoten about.

I'm confident they are mostly all being bought for collections anyway. There seems little risk that they will get played.

Quote from: Brad J. Murray;665427I'm confident they are mostly all being bought for collections anyway. There seems little risk that they will get played.

Yes.  So far, everyone who has the book, that did a quick overview of the book cover, says it looks very nice on their RPG shelf with the rest of their Traveller collection.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;664940I beta-tested Traveller 5.  And that was enough for me.  Traveller 4 is way better, and I don't even like Traveller 4.

QuoteMongoose is all I play now.  Easy to ref and easier to play.

For my money MGT is the absolute best version of the game when it comes to sheer accessibility and playability. I could personally live with CT, but I'd miss some of MGT's ideas (the embellishments they've given to the life path system and the sheer range of careers for one thing), and if I had to pick one edition to give to an absolute beginner I'd choose MGT every time.

Quote from: Warthur;665432For my money MGT is the absolute best version of the game when it comes to sheer accessibility and playability. I could personally live with CT, but I'd miss some of MGT's ideas (the embellishments they've given to the life path system and the sheer range of careers for one thing), and if I had to pick one edition to give to an absolute beginner I'd choose MGT every time.

Accessibility is a good word.  MgT certainly allows for that when I'm getting new players into a Traveller session (or any game setting I'm using the RPG for) with a minimum of rules explanation.

Quote from: David Johansen;665276You should try that immediately then.



No, it actually applies real physics.  Ranging from three dimensional combat and movement using a chart to figure distances to heat radiators being one of the most crucial systems on a ship.

I once wrote a fairly simple 3d tactical starship combat game and made a chart for range.

Non direct fire missiles and torpedoes were such a pain in the ass, I ended up making 'fast' missiles direct fire, but impacted after beam weapons. For 'slow' torps I made them powerful but not numerous.

But torpedoes were cumbersome.

Never could decide if the 3d element actually added any fun factor over the more common 2d.

Quote from: Bill;665438Never could decide if the 3d element actually added any fun factor over the more common 2d.

Until you have four ships, the third dimension adds nothing. (Three points define a plane.) After that, they add very little, really. Fleets generally tend to move together, because it's generally good tactics to concentrate fire, so you really need more than three sides for 3D movement to have much practical value.

With the usual one on one ship battle, there's literally no difference between detailed 3D vectored movment and a completely abstract system that tracks only range, difference in speed, and difference in acceleration.

Dudes, this is crazy talk.

I just want to say, "I hit him with my sword."

Quote from: 1989;665480Dudes, this is crazy talk.

I just want to say, "I hit him with my sword."

But what about the angle of incidence when the blade strikes the enemies armor?

Quote from: Bill;665488But what about the angle of incidence when the blade strikes the enemies armor?

I do think it's humorous when games try to directly model real combat, mostly because unless you've actually been hit with a sword (not SCA, sorry) or shot at with bullets, you have no idea what combat is like. Marc Miller was in Vietnam, so at least he has a legitimate base of experience; Stephen Cole was in the Army. No idea what Richard Tucholka's background is, but I'm led to believe he might have a background in forensics, or at least read a lot of medical journals. That doesn't make for a fun game, mostly because real war fucking sucks ass. Give me D&D's simple roll-to-hit and that's as close to real-life combat I need.

Quote from: Brad;665492I do think it's humorous when games try to directly model real combat, mostly because unless you've actually been hit with a sword (not SCA, sorry) or shot at with bullets, you have no idea what combat is like. Marc Miller was in Vietnam, so at least he has a legitimate base of experience; Stephen Cole was in the Army. No idea what Richard Tucholka's background is, but I'm led to believe he might have a background in forensics, or at least read a lot of medical journals. That doesn't make for a fun game, mostly because real war fucking sucks ass. Give me D&D's simple roll-to-hit and that's as close to real-life combat I need.

I would go so far as to say the average person (including myself) has about as much clue what real combat is, as.....

Professional Wrestling is real combat!

Some people of course do have real combat experience. But I do not.

Quote from: 1989;665480Dudes, this is crazy talk.

I just want to say, "I hit him with my sword."

In my experience, that is not generally a successful tactic in a battle between space ships. YMMV, of course.

Quote from: Brad;665492I do think it's humorous when games try to directly model real combat, mostly because unless you've actually been hit with a sword (not SCA, sorry) or shot at with bullets, you have no idea what combat is like. Marc Miller was in Vietnam, so at least he has a legitimate base of experience; Stephen Cole was in the Army. No idea what Richard Tucholka's background is, but I'm led to believe he might have a background in forensics, or at least read a lot of medical journals. That doesn't make for a fun game, mostly because real war fucking sucks ass. Give me D&D's simple roll-to-hit and that's as close to real-life combat I need.

One of my players was in Iraq, and suffers (rather badly) from PTSD. If we tried a game that was actually even a little realistic, I doubt he'd be able to play.

Quote from: Bill;665517Professional Wrestling is real combat!

Yeah, that's why it's governed by the Entertainment Commission, not the Sports Commission. We all know that Hollywood movies are all documentaries, filmed in real life combat conditions.

Quote from: Bill;665517Some people of course do have real combat experience. But I do not.

Nor do I want any. And if I did, I wouldn't be playing roleplaying games to get it.

Quote from: taustin;665540In my experience, that is not generally a successful tactic in a battle between space ships. YMMV, of course.

I dunno, a 4kg sword shot from a railgun at 2500km/sec has the destructive equivalent of close to 3 kilotons of TNT. :D

Traveller, with physics FTW.

Quote from: jeff37923;665553Traveller, with physics FTW.

In space, no-one can hear you scribble.

Quote from: jeff37923;665553I dunno, a 4kg sword shot from a railgun at 2500km/sec has the destructive equivalent of close to 3 kilotons of TNT. :D

I suspect 4 kg of u-238 would be even more entertaining, though. Plus, he didn't say "I fire my sword at him at relativistic speeds," he said "I want to hit him with my sword." Ships are always her.

Quote from: jeff37923;665553Traveller, with physics FTW.

Dude, that's just wrong. And by wrong, I don't mean "incorrect," I mean morally wrong. Sinful. You'll be punished in your next life for even thinking it. There's a special place in Hell for people like you. Unfortunately, it's probably a management position.

Quote from: taustin;665540In my experience, that is not generally a successful tactic in a battle between space ships. YMMV, of course.

This makes me think of good space opera, with swashbucklers on spaceships. Pretty much Star Wars.

Quote from: Koltar;665398Why are people going on and on about boardgames, miniatures games (like Starfleet Battles), and wargames - when the title of the thread clearly says :...most Complicated RPG You ever Played...?

Just Curious.

- Ed C.

Well, if we're comparing RPGs to Star Fleet Battles, I never actually played the original Prime Directive, but it looked complicated enough.

JG

Quote from: jeff37923;665553I dunno, a 4kg sword shot from a railgun at 2500km/sec has the destructive equivalent of close to 3 kilotons of TNT. :D

Traveller, with physics FTW.

"Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space."

Quote from: James Gillen;665683"Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space."

Mind == Fuckin' Blown

Quote from: Brad;665654This makes me think of good space opera, with swashbucklers on spaceships. Pretty much Star Wars.

Star Wars is, in fact, an classic example of a space opera movie. And, yes, a good one.

Quote from: James Gillen;665683"Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space."

Especially when fired out of a rail gun at 2500km/sec.

Quote from: taustin;665614I suspect 4 kg of u-238 would be even more entertaining, though. Plus, he didn't say "I fire my sword at him at relativistic speeds," he said "I want to hit him with my sword." Ships are always her.

2500 km/sec isn't considered relativistic speed. For that you would have to be travelling at least 30,000 km/sec (10% C). At that speed, that same 4kg sword impacts with the energy equivalent of 430.21 kilotons of TNT.

Using U238 instead of iron doesn't matter at that speed. The U238 will not detonate on its own without a constructed implosion trigger to create a prompt critical reaction. I also don't think that Uranium is magnetic, but I'd have to check.

Admiral Foley, of the Naval Review and Annapolis Instructor fame has remarked on naming ships in the feminine:

Quote from: Admiral FoleyShips are referred to as "she" because men love them, but this encompasses far more than just that. Man-o'-war or merchantman, there can be a great deal of bustle about her as well as a gang of men on deck, particularly if she is slim-waisted, well-stacked, and has an inviting superstructure. It is not so much her initial cost as it is her upkeep that makes you wonder where you founder.

She is greatly admired when freshly painted and all decked out to emphasize her cardinal points. If an aircraft carrier, she will look in a mirror when about to be arrested, and will wave you off if she feels you are sinking too low or a little too high, day or night. She will not hangar around with duds, but will light you off and launch you into the wild blue yonder when you muster a full head of steam.

Even a submarine reveals her topsides returning to port, heads straight for the buoys, knows her pier, and gets her breast-lines out promptly if she is single-screwed. On departure, no ship leaves port asleep, she always leaves awake. She may not mind her helm or answer to the old man when the going gets rough, and can be expected to kick up her heels on a family squall.A ship costs a lot to dress, sometimes blows a bit of smoke, and requires periodic overhauls to extend her useful life.

Some have a cute fantail, others are heavy in the stern, but all have double-bottoms which demand attention. When meeting head-on, sound a recognition signal; whistle! If she does not answer up, come about and start laying alongside, but watch to see if her ship is slowing . . . perhaps her slip is showing? Then proceed with caution until danger of collision is over and you can fathom how much latitude she will allow.

If she does not remain on an even keel, let things ride, feel your way, and do not cross the line until you determine weather the "do" point is right for a prolonged blast. Get the feel of the helm, stay on the right tact, keep her so, and she will pay off handsomely. If she is in the roaring forties, however, you may be in the dangerous semi-circle, so do not expect much "luff," especially under bare poles. She may think you are not under command or control and shove off.

If she edges aweigh, keep her steady as she goes, but do not sink into the doldrums. Just remember that "to furnish a ship requireth much trouble, but to furnish a woman the cost is double!"

The Admiral isn't very politically correct....

Quote from: taustin;665614Dude, that's just wrong. And by wrong, I don't mean "incorrect," I mean morally wrong. Sinful. You'll be punished in your next life for even thinking it. There's a special place in Hell for people like you. Unfortunately, it's probably a management position.

During the Mongoose Traveller demo at Free RPG Day, I explained some of Traveller's heavy ordinance. When I got to Meson Guns, one Player grabbed his head and melodrammatically declared, "Oh, fuck! Traveller kills people with science!"

I think Exalted, the layout was just horrid and made it too complicated to run to me, so I got rid of it.

Quote from: jeff37923;665823During the Mongoose Traveller demo at Free RPG Day, I explained some of Traveller's heavy ordinance. When I got to Meson Guns, one Player grabbed his head and melodrammatically declared, "Oh, fuck! Traveller kills people with science!"

But he's OK with swords, clubs, and, well, magic spells?

Quote from: taustin;665833But he's OK with swords, clubs, and, well, magic spells?

I don't know. He and the rest of the Players at my table skipped playing the offered fantasy RPGs in order to play the Mongoose Traveller demo which took up an extra 3 hour slot due to overwhelming Player interest in the game.

Quote from: jeff37923;665823The Admiral isn't very politically correct....

Admirals tend not to be.

jg

Quote from: flyingcircus;665824I think Exalted, the layout was just horrid and made it too complicated to run to me, so I got rid of it.

When Hero Games came out with The Atlantean Age, I thought, "here's a game for people who like Exalted but want less bookkeeping and micro-management of combat."

JG

I found the HERO system on the way-too-complicated end of the spectrum too.

Quote from: RPGPundit;666462I found the HERO system on the way-too-complicated end of the spectrum too.

Last night I sat in on a Star HERO character generation session.  Players didn't know what kind of character to be, so no one could decide what things to buy for their character.  Not everyone had the rules, and the Hero site is dead for now.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;666629Last night I sat in on a Star HERO character generation session.  Players didn't know what kind of character to be, so no one could decide what things to buy for their character.  Not everyone had the rules, and the Hero site is dead for now.

It's been dead for a while now, if you get my drift.

JG

Rollmaster (ie "Chartmaster.") So much pointless complexity. Roll to strike, then modify for OB and DB and "Adrenal Defense" and locate your weapon's strike table and compare the roll with the target's armour type and check the crit table if necessary. I mean it all plays fast enough when you get used to it, but it's all so pointless and fails to give the various weapons and attack types any real personality anyway.

Quote from: valency;666712Rollmaster (ie "Chartmaster.") So much pointless complexity. Roll to strike, then modify for OB and DB and "Adrenal Defense" and locate your weapon's strike table and compare the roll with the target's armour type and check the crit table if necessary. I mean it all plays fast enough when you get used to it, but it's all so pointless and fails to give the various weapons and attack types any real personality anyway.

Just give me my fuckin' +1 Sword so I can roll already.  I'll role with the bunches.

Continuum was also extremely complicated, though I liked that game; though there the complexity wasn't in the rules but in the book-keeping required by how the rules handled time-travel.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;666629Last night I sat in on a Star HERO character generation session.  Players didn't know what kind of character to be, so no one could decide what things to buy for their character.  Not everyone had the rules, and the Hero site is dead for now.

In my experience, allthough I like HERO, don't bother playing unless the gm has extensive experience, and has a clue in general.

I guess my conclusion is that I don't care for almost any system of mechanics that's more complicated than D&D.  Its my upper limit.

I submit that D&D (3.5 and Pathfinder) are to me more complicated than Continuum. Because I'm not a system-oriented person, I find that designing an encounter in D&D to be a harrowing experience.
I guess I'm not wired that way.
But making a session in Continuum just requires me to power up my brain and think about 4th dimensional possibilities. This is pretty much a hobby for me anyway, so if I get to apply this in a game, then all the better.

Quote from: Libertad;6629773rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons. :)

Quote from: danbuter;6629853e, especially with all of the sourcebooks we were using. Loved it, though.

i honestly think its more a case of a lot of options rather then actual complication of course for those that dont like it i should point out the huge amount of options is exactly why i love it so much i love you prestige classes

as for most complicated i have to say 3e to but thats only because i dont have that many games to draw on as examples although i have been looking at oh fuck whats its called the game with the fancy looking character sheet

3.PF with just a core book and no experience with the D20 system. Fuck that shit. Most unhealthy, harrowing, bollocks experience of my life and a terrible pox on gaming. At least using Hero System was FUN.

When I was still very new to RPGs, I found AD&D (2nd edition) extremely difficult to figure out. I only had previous experiences with TDE and Runequest (and maybe GURPS, it was a long time ago, and I can't really remember that well), and I found the AD&D rules completely counter-intuitive. I understood what I had to roll and how the system worked (most of the time), but back then, I never understood why the rules worked that way. On a subjective level, that was one of the least accessible games I've played.

On a more objective level, 4th edition TDE is probably the most cluttered (the authors seem to think that "complicated" means " detailed simulation" and added wanted to make the game appear way more elaborate than it actually is).

Lets see.

Universe: by SPI. It has one of the most convoluted chargen systems I ever played. But it was fun to play and I still like the games star system generation system. I never had Delta-Vee till recent and still have not had a chance to look it over yet. The combat system wasnt bad really.

Other Suns: by FGU. overly complex chargen was a low point, otherwise wasnt too horrible. But never had any urge to run it. Dealing with the designer though was horrible.

Ironclaw: Alot of moving parts that just dont feel right in the end. It feels like it is more complicated than it should be. Part of that is the wording of the book.

Board Game Honourable mention:
Magic Realm: yeesh this thing is complex! But, it has a very robust system that thrives on that complexity.

Back around 2000, my brother really got into this system called Imagine. It was demoed at a local shop (the designers were from Atlanta, we lived an hour or two outside the perimeter) and he just loved it.

It was basically what happens when a designer takes 2e AD&D and adds a billion new systems because it wasn't "cool" enough for him.

A huge list of percentage roll skills, some racial, some social, some class, and hey, lets have these lists overlap but determine their percentages in slightly different ways! Also, you could have the same skill from multiple sources with different percentages.

Hit locations and individual HP, Bullseye targetting so that when you missed you could determine if you hit a different location than you were aiming for (because EVERY shot was a called shot. basically just aim for the neck every time, if you miss high or low you will get the head or upper torso, which wasn't that much worse) Oh and the on a miss hit thing worked differently for if you were slashing or piercing.

I still to this day don't understand the magic system. It had by the minute recharging mana stuff. I played a wizard once and still don't know how it worked.

Also, you had two different sets of "levels". You attained levels, then every three "levels" you earned a rank. I can't remember the actual names for them. It also had a silly number of races, including I think 6 versions of Human, and so many classes. So many. And they would sometimes be like, "Knight, Grey Knight, Dark Knight" as three different classes.

Oh and I forgot about the fact that parrying was a skill roll after the roll to hit. But the roll to hit was a standard d20 attack roll (well, with the hit location chart), and the parry was with  a percent skill check. Actually, almost everything was a skill roll. Sweep was a skill roll (basically cleave from D&D), dual wielding was a skill roll, weapon skills were a percentile skill, but you never actually used it as a percentile skill because attacks were made using a d20, and it was all too confusing.

Oh, and armor. Armor was not bought in suits. You bought individual pieces and layered them. And there were complex rules on layering and stuff. And it was DR type Armor and there was rules on how different damage types caused the DR to be of varying effectiveness (which mean reworking your dr every time you got hit by a different type), and it suffered damage on each hit and needed repairing over time. On the subject of the effectiveness vs different types, remember that you could layer three types of armor on each boy spot, so that leather, chain, and plate on your neck might all have to be multiplied by different percents based on what it was hit with.

I do remember having body parry, which was really for if you had like, really strong armor on one part of your body, but the best thing was always that the strongest armor you had was generally on your head because it was the easiest to layer the most DR, to the point that 99% of attacks couldn't pierce it. I remember declaring in mid game "I body parry with my face". It was a surprisingly effective tactic until our rogue tried it and had a longsword shoved into his eye socket (no really, when you already target a hit location on each attack, you could still do called shots, but they were ridiculous called shots).

I will say that some of the parry rules led to fun things. I had a berserker character who did so much damage that someone shield parried only to have the sword go through his shield and arm.

Also in combat, it didn't really use initiative. or it did, but it only decided on what second in the 10 second round you could START acting. Basically it was a tick second based system, and it included rules on how fast you could accelerate/decelerate per second, and what actions you could overlap on seconds, like you could be swinging a weapon while moving.

It also had 15 alignments, with an added 4 tendencies that you could mix and match. This was mostly useless because if you think D&D alignments start arguments, wait until you see these monstrosities. And encumbrance was based on a percentage of your body weight, which made being a 7 foot tall 300 lb behemoth useful.

Oddly enough, the game we played with this was one of the longest campaigns I've ever played in, lasted several years. I played a Barbaric Human Berserker (one of those 6 types of humans) named Rage (not his real name, I told everyone his real name in the first session, but no one but me remembers it. We actually used this later because all scrying and divination in the system required knowing someone's true name and since no one knew mine (the other PCs were the first person to meet me after my entire village was slaughtered, so no one else who knew it was alive), it was impossible to do to me). He lost a hand to a mimic early on, and was possessed by a god of rage occasionally (this was used every time I missed a session, which was rarely, but it also helped get rid of a couple of PCs who stopped showing up altogether).

It was a great campaign, but I think we had fun in SPITE of the game, not because of it.

On a side note, I think this system had a lot to do with my belief that "hey, 3.x isn't so bad" for a long time.

@Emperor Norton-  sweet Jesus.

Quote from: RunningLaser;807088@Emperor Norton-  sweet Jesus.

I'm now 90% certain that we know what killed off the dinosaurs.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;807093I'm now 90% certain that we know what killed off the dinosaurs.

:)

I've read a few super complex rpgs, but have not played them.  For play, the most complex was probably D&D 3e- it wasn't bad, just combats too long.  Most involved rpg would be D&D 4e.  Any game where I have to use a computer to create a character is too involved.  That was the first time I stopped caring what my character could do, and just started clicking whatever power came up just because I no longer wanted to make the damn guy.

Ha! Imagine! I remember that game. Paul Mason wrote a hilariously scathing review. I also recall back in the day the author showed up on tbp to promote the game and got lambasted for it. Kinda felt sorry for the guy in that "fantasy heartbreaker" kinda-way. He used to own "role-play.com" or something like that as a domain name.

Always wanted to look through the game jjust to see if it lived up to the infamy.

Haven't played it but the most complex game I've read through was Chaosium's Nephilim. The characters are just bizarre and you need to swallow the whole mythology to get a grip on them and have a chance of playing or GMing it correctly.

(For those who don't know: the Nephilim are immortal spirit beings who've been around forever. Their goal is to achieve some sort of Buddha or god-like transcendence by living multiple lives across the eons and acquiring power. They are tied to the different elements, water, earth, etc. and there are multiple factions in competition with each other. They are what is behind all the supernatural stuff on Earth, from ghost sitings to vampires, werewolves, sea dragons, djinn, efreet, and so on. Oh, and there was once a second moon in orbit, a "dark moon" which got blown up back in the days of the dinosaurs, if I recall correctly.

I think the game was Chaosium's attempt to have a White Wolf - Vampire style world.

When designing a character you had to take into account stuff like which element you are tied to, which faction you ally with, how many past lives you had and what you did in them. You take over the body of a human and have to figure out what his background and skill sets are. So you are building at least two characters, more if you count the past lives, and melding them into one. Then you figure out what to do with yourself and where to go from there.

Sheesh.)

For board games: I tried to play Magic Realm but got fed up half way through the rules. Tried Freedom in the Galaxy and was bogged down. Read maybe a half of the rules to Third Reich before I gave up. Played a couple games of Advanced Squad Leader but didn't enjoy it. Starfleet Battles was okay but there is a lot to it and I was playing against an uber-expert and had no chance.

I actually really love Nephilim, but it helps that I have a huge interest in real world magick practices.

The most complicated rpg I ever played was probably the Aliens rpg which used the system from Phoenix Command.


Otherwise, Rolemaster was a pretty painful experience.

Quote from: TristramEvans;807118Ha! Imagine! I remember that game. Paul Mason wrote a hilariously scathing review. I also recall back in the day the author showed up on tbp to promote the game and got lambasted for it. Kinda felt sorry for the guy in that "fantasy heartbreaker" kinda-way. He used to own "role-play.com" or something like that as a domain name.

Always wanted to look through the game jjust to see if it lived up to the infamy.

To be honest, its got some strong points. The hit location thing was badly thought out, but the core of hit locations and the bullseye aiming map was kind of cool, and combined with the way parry worked, where you could break weapons and shields and stuff was fun, but its like, so many bad decisions.

It was like, a cacophony of ideas thrown at a board, some cool, some horrible, and they all somehow stuck.

Its really become the running joke in my playgroup as the "hey we could always play Imagine". I think I finally got rid of all my books for it recently though. (my brother had bought them for me for a Christmas present while the campaign was ongoing, definitely not something I would have bought myself).

It still has some of my most memorable roleplaying moments though just because of how long the campaign was. Rage was a fun character to play, though he was admittedly a bit minmaxed (he had max barbaric human stats in strength, agility, and vitality). We also had an Archer that actually managed to never miss a shot the entire campaign through a combination of luck and skill. And then the wizard who started off useless (his only spell was sleep, we started off fighting 4 sessions worth of undead, and spell casting times were so long by the time he did get other spells, the Archer and Rage had killed almost everything anyway), but grew into a conniving behind closed doors evil mastermind with some legit power.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;807086Back around 2000, my brother really got into this system called Imagine. It was demoed at a local shop (the designers were from Atlanta, we lived an hour or two outside the perimeter) and he just loved it.

SNIP

On a side note, I think this system had a lot to do with my belief that "hey, 3.x isn't so bad" for a long time.

hmmm...I think....I might be in love...URL?

Not sure if it counts as complex... or just plain bizarre. But Synnabar rates up there on the list somewhere if only for the labyrinthine chargen.

Quote from: TristramEvans;807118Ha! Imagine! I remember that game. Paul Mason wrote a hilariously scathing review. I also recall back in the day the author showed up on tbp to promote the game and got lambasted for it. Kinda felt sorry for the guy in that "fantasy heartbreaker" kinda-way. He used to own "role-play.com" or something like that as a domain name.

Always wanted to look through the game jjust to see if it lived up to the infamy.

Shamefully, I actually bought it back in 2000.

It was terrible, no real redeeming features except a goofy enthusiasm. I just remember that hit points for various races (such as the cat-people, or lizard people, etc.) were calculated with arrays like 2d4+1d6+1d10+3 for no discernible reason.

There are a bunch that were so convoluted or complicated that I never even managed to get thru the rulesbook, much less actually played them.

Complicated games I tried and gave up because they were just a pain in the ass to continue: DC Adventures, Marvel Heroic Roleplay, 5th Ed. Hero (Champions), Aces & Eights,Middle-Earth Roleplaying. My bar for "complicated" may not be as high as yours but I found all these games required too much work. A real shame in the case of Hero because the Lucha Libre Hero book is awesome and I want to play luchadores.

Quote from: Clamps;807068I submit that D&D (3.5 and Pathfinder) are to me more complicated than Continuum.

Having run both (3.5, anyways; and Continuum), I'd have to disagree. Continuum almost broke me.

BECMI is another one that bugged the heck out of me way back and the reason I stuck to BX instead. The Basic rulebook in particular is a mess. Rules are scattershot all over the place which complicates things needlessly. Organization gets better in the successive books. but ugh! Basic was anything but.

FGU's Space Opera.  What the hell was I thinking.

Quote from: Jason D;663216Definitely these.

When I tell people about the damage system (roll a d20 to hit, roll percentage dice for hit location, then roll d6s for exact hit location, roll damage, count points of damage as bullets pass through body and encounter internal organs/bones/arteries/etc., roll on subsequent tables such as "Spleen Damage" and "Bone Damage" when appropriate, then roll for hydrostatic shock, etc.) they think I'm joking or exaggerating.

Edged weapons are just as bad, with rolls to determine what percentage of a blade strikes the target, modified by a blade sharpness multiplier.

A simple fistfight between a player character an an NPC thug took almost half an hour to resolve and resulted in broken teeth, crushed noses, contusions, etc. absurdly detailed down to the specific section of the body.

It's awesomely capped off with a "This system is not recommended for NPCs" caveat.

Good times...

Apart from the hit-location subsystem, though, it was pretty simple - and who really wants all that detail even if you get it instantly from a computer program?

For me, probably C&S 1st/2nd ed. and LotRS, but it could be seeming complicated rather than more quantifiably so than some others.

Never actually used the full Space Opera rules set. The space battle game was excellent, but otherwise we just grabbed what bits were fun from the grand buffet.

Rolemaster was fun with one GM, but how much he used I don't know. More often it was a drag.

Quote from: soviet;662984RMSS edition rolemaster was pretty bad. I GMed it for two separate groups, both times only for a session or two. What made it especially bad was that in one group I was the only person who'd read any of the rules. I'm thinking of GMing it again but if I do it will definitely be the older, less fiddly edition (2nd, I think. With the red borders on the covers.)

Oh, and D&D 3e and 4e are also both way over the top complexity wise.

I'm actually running some 2e Rolemaster right now, with players who have no prior experience of any of the MERP/RM games, and it's working really well. Chargen gave them a bit of pause, when we calculated stride modifiers and potential stats and the like, but now that we're playing it we're finding it straightforward enough and we're having a lot of fun. I'm finding that the layout of the books is not very helpful, which has slowed things down a couple of times, but it's  definitely a lot lighter than D&D 3e or 4e, which have been our main games for a very long time.

Quote from: Phillip;807891Apart from the hit-location subsystem, though, it was pretty simple - and who really wants all that detail even if you get it instantly from a computer program?

i dont know dwarf fortress is pretty popular but nobody wants to deal with that on there tabletop

but then again in dwarf fortress you can choose where you try to hit (well in adventure mode anyway and in fortress mode its better random which it technically isent the dorfs still aim before they attack which is a good thing)