Quote from: RandallS;663031Air War and ASL in the hex and chit boardgame division.

For RPGs, Aftermath and Space Opera.

Lou Zochi's Mig Killers was so much better than Air War. I played Air War once, and found the game did not accurately depict jet flight and combat characteristics. Mig Killers did, and was so well built, I could predict the results of actual air combat by running simulations using Mig Killers.

I never found ASL complicated at all. Each successive set of rules built on the previous set... and just added new features and units. It was certainly much easier than many RPGs, but sadly only focused on One World War (Instead of all the wars of history) so its application in wargaming was very limited.

Best Wargames, I would have to go with SPI's Strategy I, and from Avalon Hill, Squad Leader & ASL, Wooden Ships & Iron Men, And Submarine. Mig Killers is right up there though almost on par, as is Panzer Leader/Panzer Blitz.

GDW's Europa series including Drang Nach Osten, and Unentschieden were phenomenally good, however the setup time, and time it took to complete one two-week turn, could run several days or even a week or more.

See my earlier post on complicated RPGs.

Best RPGs... 0D&D, Runequest, Traveller. Still very much my favorites. Fast Play, lots of opportunities for fun.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;664417I seem to remember the older version of The Morrow Project 3rd edition being more complicated than the revised version that threw in BRP skill checks.

Hrrrm? I have the original edition, and 3rd. First book of the 3rd edition is virtually identical to the 1st edition (for combat), except the errata has been included, and it was updated with more ammunition types (that two decades of actual weapons development added), and more encounters. I have never seen the revised edition.

omg, just looking at these combat tables again is making me dizzy.

I bought 3rd edition years ago (1984?).  Lost it in real life somewhere.  Then bought 3rd edition again about 3 years ago.  It has "revised" stamped on it.  Has Chaosium rules in it.  Some different artwork, too.

Quote from: MoonHunter;664378All of you people who are sissy about rules need to go back to the roots of gaming first, Grognardia!  GO READ AND PLAY SQUAD LEADER FIRST then tell me how complicated the modern rpg rules are today.  You will then see how much better games are today.

I only played STAR FLEET BATTLES.  Which I understand is the training wheels for Advanced Squad Leader.

JG

All Avalon Hill games were hard.

Quote from: James Gillen;664425I only played STAR FLEET BATTLES.  Which I understand is the training wheels for Advanced Squad Leader.

JG

You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones, and used Advanced Squad Leader for each boarding party combat.

Quote from: Bill;664486You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones, and used Advanced Squad Leader for each boarding party combat.

A full Federation & Empire campaign, using all races, including players for each pirate cartel, SFB for battles, ASL for boarding party combat. That's a game I could get behind.

Quote from: Brad;664490A full Federation & Empire campaign, using all races, including players for each pirate cartel, SFB for battles, ASL for boarding party combat. That's a game I could get behind.

I forgot about F&E. Nice.





Next get two sets of F&E and play side by side...Mirror Universe....

Quote from: Bill;664491I forgot about F&E. Nice.





Next get two sets of F&E and play side by side...Mirror Universe....

That might literally play out slower than real time...1 year per 6 month turn.

Quote from: Bill;664486You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones,

With the miniatures rules, with a Klingon fleet coming around a gas giant in perfect formation.

Quote from: Brad;664490A full Federation & Empire campaign, using all races, including players for each pirate cartel, SFB for battles, ASL for boarding party combat. That's a game I could get behind.

Yeah, but after about three weeks, you'll realize you're still in the first turn, and it will get a little old.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;664427All Avalon Hill games were hard.

No, they weren't.  Not by a long shot.

Quote from: KenHR;664526No, they weren't.  Not by a long shot.

Outdoors Survival, the game itself, isn't exactly hard to play.

Quote from: Bill;664486You have not lived until you have played Star Fleet Battles with Multiple Carriers, multiwarhead drones, and used Advanced Squad Leader for each boarding party combat.

I guess I qualify has having lived.

A bunch of us were rabid enough SFB fans that I got drafted to write a turn management and damage allocation program for DOS. Then I lugged my DOS PC to the game site to use it when we played. Boy the transport may have been a hassle but being able to use that program was sure worth it.

It stepped through each phase of the turn based on the consolidated listing in the commander's edition. I included the rules references as well. Damage Allocation asked for the number of damage inflicted and when it called up a destroyed system, it remember that it was destroyed and moved to the next column on the DAC.

Quote from: estar;664540I guess I qualify has having lived.

A bunch of us were rabid enough SFB fans that I got drafted to write a turn management and damage allocation program for DOS. Then I lugged my DOS PC to the game site to use it when we played. Boy the transport may have been a hassle but being able to use that program was sure worth it.

It stepped through each phase of the turn based on the consolidated listing in the commander's edition. I included the rules references as well. Damage Allocation asked for the number of damage inflicted and when it called up a destroyed system, it remember that it was destroyed and moved to the next column on the DAC.

StarFleet Battles has its glorious moments.

I once saw a Kzinti cruiser and a Gorn Cruiser destroy each other at the same time. Both had lethal inbound waves of Drones and Plasma Torpedoes, but neither captain was willing to shoot at the seeking weapons. Both ships died, with the Kzinti claiming 'Victory' because his drones impacted one impulse before the plasmatorpedoes hit.

Glorious!