Quote from: Willie the Duck;880018But who he is pretty much is (and as a corollary, what or whether Chainsaw thinks of Barker) isn't. He's just an observer to Gronan's dungeon who pointed out that it didn't explain what the inhabitants ate.

When different people ask you the same question, it's not really the same question:).

Seriously, I shouldn't have to really prove that, but given the url of this page, I'd better do it in advance;). "Where were you last night" is a different question when asked by an uniformed cop than when asked by your colleague at work.

Also, you're missing a rather important fact if you're trying to engage in earnest with my responses in this thread:D.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;880040Well, that joke fell flat, sir. Tough crowd in here, tonight; maybe you should have my cousin do his juggling act for a bit to loosen them up.

(And don't forget to tell them to try the veal; the cook has a lot of it in stock, and we're running a special. Just a hint, there.)

And we'll be here all week, folks! Enjoy the show!

http://www.fkb.com/

That'd be a good way to relax. Tell me, is the cook also a cousin? Or did you hire outside the clan:p?

Quote from: jeff37923;880068He hasn't seen your unending "You Youngsters Know Nothing!" lawncrapper attitude for years.

Wrong, I have seen it this year. For a variety of reasons, it simply doesn't bother me;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879694No, but I did give up beer.

And I've had to modify my "internet fast" into a "Facebook fast"; sadly, where I live the Internet is the only place I can talk about my interests with other people who share them, and not sharing what's important to me is not good for my mental health.

dont worry man i just spent a week bottled up with out any talk about my interests . and it was damn hard

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879704* shrug * No worries.

Really, I just thought people would find a 40+ year old McDonald's price list mildly interesting.

i did i love that stuff

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879810About $100 to $150, and yes they're available.

My point is that a $25 engine from 1956 brought forward to 2016 is about $225 to $250 in current money, and the newer engine is MUCH better quality than the old one.  Objectively, as in "looks more like the real thing," "better quality motor and gearing," etc.

A lot of stuff is actually cheaper than it would be if you just adjusted 1956 prices for inflation.

or like how every one wined about the cost of the ps3 at 600$ and went off how there Atari 2600 only cost 200$.
Never mind that when you convert both to 2008 dollars the 2600 is 712.36$
and the ps3 is still 600$

Quote from: Spinachcat;879759GRONAN! Back on topic!

Damn, beer withdrawal is bad for you!

How much did Gygax and Arneson focus on dungeon ecology in actual play?

How "jokey" were elements in their campaign? Did they run separate "serious" games vs. more "silly" campaigns?

What is your personal style regarding ecology and has it changed over the years?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879811Virtually not at all.  As I've said before, BLACKMOOR and GREYHAWK both had huge amounts of piss take in them.  The first temple in GREYHAWK to get a name was the one I dubbed "First Church of Crom, Scientist."  There might be some ecology elements if it made for a cool aspect of play, but otherwise not.

Play was serious but characterization was not.  Much like having a Napoleonic miniatures army commanded by General Sir Hugh Jarce, but being so good at the game you win all the time.

More later.

This really, I think, is worth talking about.  Since miniatures wargaming became popular in the 20th century, there have been players serious about their skill and not about the atmosphere.  "Sir Hugh Jarce" is one example.  Dave and Gary both were very much in that camp.  Greyhawk Dungeon had a bowling alley for giants, for example; silly, yes, but at the same time you could get very dead there.

Blackmoor was even more so.  Dave rarely took ANY setting very seriously, and Blackmoor reflected this.  Early on when the player characters failed to stop Blackmoor from falling to the elves, the elves promptly set up tour guides and started selling tickets.  They even installed turnstiles at the doors to the dungeon.

And when players wanted to keep adventuring in the dungeons, the elves happily started selling "adventurers' tickets," with a notice that you'd be paying a toll to get out.  I think it was 10% of your haul.

So then the local merchants set up booths outside the turnstiles to sell spikes, rope, 10' poles, and other dungeon necessities.  Eventually it turned into a full-blown full-service market set up at the entrance to the dungeon.  There wasn't some little bloke wandering around selling "Sausage Inna Bun," but there might as well have been.

Terry Pratchett stated (somewhere) that Discworld was at least in part a parody of the way RPGs worked.  With all respect to Sir Terry, Discworld wasn't a parody, it was a rediscovery of the original.  Ankh-Morpork is so close to Greyhawk in spirit (if not in text) that the difference isn't worth measuring.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880354Greyhawk Dungeon had a bowling alley for giants, for example; silly, yes, but at the same time you could get very dead there.

Not positive. But that may have been inspired by a scene in either one of the Narnia or Xanth books?

Quote from: Omega;880356Not positive. But that may have been inspired by a scene in either one of the Narnia or Xanth books?

In The Silver Chair, Puddleglum, Eustace and Jill travel through Ettinsmoor in Narnia and encounter giants playing cock-shies; apparently the greatest danger of being hit was to whatever they were not aiming at. I don't know enough about Xanth to say whether there was anything similar there.

Quote from: rawma;880364In The Silver Chair, Puddleglum, Eustace and Jill travel through Ettinsmoor in Narnia and encounter giants playing cock-shies; apparently the greatest danger of being hit was to whatever they were not aiming at. I don't know enough about Xanth to say whether there was anything similar there.

*Looks up Cockshies*  Throwing rocks at roosters, isn't that where they got Stone Giants from?  NEAT!

Quote from: Omega;880356Not positive. But that may have been inspired by a scene in either one of the Narnia or Xanth books?

Can't be Xanth. The first Xanth book was published 3 years after D&D.

I don't recall a bowling alley in Narnia, but Narnia giants are huge and have huge houses and such. So if they bowled in alleys the alleys would be huge. IIR, The Silver Chair is the book where giants figure prominently. It's also the one with Puddleglum the Marshwiggle.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880354And when players wanted to keep adventuring in the dungeons, the elves happily started selling "adventurers' tickets," with a notice that you'd be paying a toll to get out.  I think it was 10% of your haul.

There was some published module with a bunch of dwarves outside a dungeon and a wheel you'd spin to determine how much to pay. We said, "This is the deal I propose," and we smacked them over. They had more treasure than we found in the next few sessions in the actual dungeon.

One of our groups way back actually got mugged by adventurers who were waiting for people to leave the site so they could just loot them instead of going down in the dungeon themselves.

You know, this really got me thinking about how much MORE it cost for refills back in the day. I wonder when they decided to just jack the price up and give out the refills "for free"?

Quote from: trechriron;880597You know, this really got me thinking about how much MORE it cost for refills back in the day. I wonder when they decided to just jack the price up and give out the refills "for free"?

When they decided they could save more money by getting you to fill your own drink instead of paying someone to fill it for you.

Quote from: Bren;880623When they decided they could save more money by getting you to fill your own drink instead of paying someone to fill it for you.

That's actually inaccurate.  McDickie workers get paid the same amount no matter what they do.  Which is minimal wage.

And Fast Food drinks are the real way they make money.  The actual price of a drink is about a nickel, 3c of it is the cup.  So you could get 10 refills and still not make the money you spent back.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;880652That's actually inaccurate.  McDickie workers get paid the same amount no matter what they do.  Which is minimal wage.

And Fast Food drinks are the real way they make money.  The actual price of a drink is about a nickel, 3c of it is the cup.  So you could get 10 refills and still not make the money you spent back.

witch is why my local mcds doesn't care that i go there eat and fill my cup 7 or 8 times over the next 3 or 4 hour while i read / what ever

Quote from: Christopher Brady;880652That's actually inaccurate.  McDickie workers get paid the same amount no matter what they do.

How much people get paid to work at McDonald's isn't relevant to what I said. The point is that by having the customer fill their own drink, McD's needs fewer workers on staff, especially during a busy time. So that's fewer people they need to pay (however much they get paid). Most of the cost to McD's of the drink is the labor cost. As you said, the materials cost is cheap. Saving on labor costs is  the same reason the grocery store profits when you scan, check out, and bag your own groceries.

If you're a 10' tall, 770lb Ogre, and you show up at the Golden Sow Dungeon Buffet (now with boiled gnome stew!), will they charge you MORE? If so, is that racism or just fat bigotry?

I imagine one of the drink choices could be "the anguished tears of the butt-hurt". Not sure what to call that soft drink. Mt. Boo Hoo? Would it make a good mixer? The labor costs involved probably make for a higher retail on that. Of course "Mr. Not That Door!" would likely be more available and therefor less expensive.

I actually believe the dungeon would be MUCH more believable with secret service tunnels with various "employee" lounges scattered throughout. When you clock out, you magic tube way yourself to Monster Housing where you can relax in peace sans adventurers. The mezzanine in Monster Housing could contain a menagerie of these shops and eateries. Build a Bugbear, Cold Angry, Spencer's Gifts (unchanged in format)...