Quote from: RPGPundit;1061868Telling people how they could run more awesome games is not gatekeeping. Telling people "they're fired from D&D" or to "Fuck off from the hobby" or that they need to be institutionalized for re-education therapy is Gatekeeping.

Gatekeeping people for behaving like assholes to other players I can understand. I'm usually fine with your rants against lawncrappers, for example.

But I'm not convinced that there is an objective "more awesome" that is independent of players' taste. Do you really think that the people who like Fate, PbtA, and other indie games really would enjoy old-school more, and they're just deluding themselves about their preferences?

I think there should be modern-novel-like role-playing that some people enjoy, and mythic role-playing that some people enjoy, and there's nothing wrong with having both.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1061795The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is an excellent example of this sort of thing. It is a hybrid between fairy tale and novel in style. While there is an overarching narrative, the individual chapters are largely episodic in nature. The characters themselves go through absolutely no character development and this isn't a bad thing. The whole "you had it within you all along" message typically of modern narratives is actively mocked: when the wizards tells the lion, scarecrow and woodsman that they already had the qualities they were searching for (as was displayed in all the previous chapters as a running gag) they don't believe him and threaten violence unless he gives them what they want.

I actually haven't finished reading my copy and this is the first time in my life I read the original, but this is exactly how I want to write my own fairy tale and myth narratives. (The distinction between fairy tale and myth is extremely fuzzy, since there isn't a noticeable difference in their styles.

Dude, I love the Oz series! It is a very deliberate attempt to reinvent the fairy tale in a new, American style. Episodic chapters used to be a more common style when novels were first published chapter by chapter in magazines, I think. I'm disappointed that people only remember the movie - which was very good, but also very different from the book that inspired it. It is deliberately more action focused than some children's stories, as part of the fairy tale flavor. I approve of more myth and fairy tale based games - just that it should be seen as an awesome alternative rather than a fix to the problems of wrongly novel-based games.

I definitely agree that many fairy tales fit the Hero's Journey monomyth. They also tend to have a lesson that right action is rewarded. The Greek myths were much more about wrong action being punished!

Edit - one possible distinction perhaps - mythic heroes save the people/ the kingdom / the galaxy. Fairy tale heroes save themselves/ their cat. But obviously modern stuff like Wizard of Oz involves saving a kingdom. The old tales like Hansel & Gretel usually have lower stakes, a princess at most.

Quote from: S'mon;1061986I definitely agree that many fairy tales fit the Hero's Journey monomyth. They also tend to have a lesson that right action is rewarded. The Greek myths were much more about wrong action being punished!

Edit - one possible distinction perhaps - mythic heroes save the people/ the kingdom / the galaxy. Fairy tale heroes save themselves/ their cat. But obviously modern stuff like Wizard of Oz involves saving a kingdom. The old tales like Hansel & Gretel usually have lower stakes, a princess at most.

One of the oddities I noticed about fairy tales is that feudalism seems entirely absent or exaggerated to the point of absurdity. Only royalty ever appears, never nobility. As a result, there is more royalty in fairy tales than there were nobility in Europe!

It is possible that this is actually a result of political ignorance (unless there was a plague or a war or natural disaster or a demographic shift or whatever, peasants generally never had a reason to leave their current place of residence and learn about the wider world) and that all mention of royalty is really referring to the local nobility who was effectively royalty as far as the peasants were concerned.

As far as the gender issues go, I find it difficult to swallow that anyone willing to accept that the Doctor completely transforms into an entirely different person once per season would also insist on that character displaying immutable physical characteristics, such as sex. It seems to me there's a serious disconnect there.

Also possibly gender related, I watched for the promised "catfight", but there was only some animal sounds.

Quote from: Zalman;1061995As far as the gender issues go, I find it difficult to swallow that anyone willing to accept that the Doctor completely transforms into an entirely different person once per season would also insist on that character displaying immutable physical characteristics, such as sex. It seems to me there's a serious disconnect there.

Also possibly gender related, I watched for the promised "catfight", but there was only some animal sounds.

Well for 50 years Time Lords/Gallifreyans appeared to have a fixed sex. So seems like a retcon  to me.

Quote from: S'mon;1061986Edit - one possible distinction perhaps - mythic heroes save the people/ the kingdom / the galaxy. Fairy tale heroes save themselves/ their cat.

myths eternally btfo by faerie tales

My brother is an expert in an area of art history which I think has some relevance to this discussion.

In art history there are two major branches of thinking - what the artist meant and was thinking and feeling about their work is important to understanding the work; and the work speaks for itself while what the artist thought and felt are irrelevant to appreciating the work.

I can see some shades of that dispute reflected in Pundit's video. Novels which tell you what the character is thinking and feeling are apart from works which tell you the characters actions and let you decide their intended meaning, if any.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1061770Tilting at windmills again, Pundey?

I wish I could get through his videos.  But I just don't find him all that engaging a speaker.  There are quite a few YT personalities with that problem, The Quartering/Unsleeved Media/Jeremy Hambly being another off the top of my head.

But if I'm thinking correctly about what he means, then I would have to disagree.  It's all part of our mythology.  They way we write our stories is how we see the world, so of course it would change.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1061885I got a totally different vibe from the John Carter books, a much more upbeat one. My take away was he took care of the people with him and responded to people based on their actions, not who they were or what they looked like. In turn they became loyal companions. He only killed the things that needed killin (I'm sure he was a Texan, although don't believe it was explicitly stated).

Virginian. But even Carter cannot recall exactly where he came from. He was immortal before reaching Mars and has outlived generations.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1062016Willie the Duck: "Tilting at windmills again, Pundey?"
I wish I could get through his videos.  But I just don't find him all that engaging a speaker.  There are quite a few YT personalities with that problem, The Quartering/Unsleeved Media/Jeremy Hambly being another off the top of my head.

But if I'm thinking correctly about what he means, then I would have to disagree.  It's all part of our mythology.  They way we write our stories is how we see the world, so of course it would change.

Oh, I was just making a joke. Cervantes' Don Quixote(El Ingenioso Hidalgo Don Quijote de la Mancha) is often credited as the first modern novel.

... so you are saying we should draw from the tradition of slam poetry instead, right?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1062028Oh, I was just making a joke. Cervantes' Don Quixote(El Ingenioso Hidalgo Don Quijote de la Mancha) is often credited as the first modern novel.

It's funny, because it's true.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1061971I know that, I was poking fun at the perception of Texas having a "He needed killin' " clause in addition to more typical self defense. John Carter definately believed in the "he needed killin' " philosophy, although to be fair that was usually turned out to be the case in the stories. The Martian cultures weren't exactly what one would call enlightened.

I was actually rather surprised by the writing, having heard for years how awful, sexist, racist and any other -ists you can think of that they are often accused of being. I didn't get that at all, for an author writing near the turn of the century Burroughs seems to have been pretty forward thinking in his attitudes. Almost a Star Trek like quality highlighting some of the BS attitudes common in his time.

There was a very clear message that people should be evaluated for their deeds, not their race, gender or social standing.

Although JC was very non-Trek in that he never, ever considered that he might be wrong in using violence to solve every problem.

Quote from: jhkim;1061974But I'm not convinced that there is an objective "more awesome" that is independent of players' taste.

Only time will tell. In general, I would agree with you, but there is a weird history of movies / books / songs that were popular at their time being forgotten and less popular ones becoming classics.

Quote from: jhkim;1061974I think there should be modern-novel-like role-playing that some people enjoy, and mythic role-playing that some people enjoy, and there's nothing wrong with having both.

As we live in the Golden Age of RPGs, I am quite sure the gazillion games on DriveThruRPG provide plenty of options for everyone across the novel to myth spectrum.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1062042Only time will tell. In general, I would agree with you, but there is a weird history of movies / books / songs that were popular at their time being forgotten and less popular ones becoming classics.




As we live in the Golden Age of RPGs, I am quite sure the gazillion games on DriveThruRPG provide plenty of options for everyone across the novel to myth spectrum.

And for things that were thought of as low brow trash to become thought of as highbrown and Full of Symbolism and Meaning as they age.