I found this linked on RPGnet in the Creepy Gamer Thread. While it certainly has aspects of Creepy Gamerness, I see it more as an example of dysfunctional gaming warping a new member of the hobby to an irrepairable degree. The major halmarks of a entrenched bad group and GM appear in the earliest chapters and just get worse from there.
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/michelle/ (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/michelle/)
Part 1
A player new to RPGing tries to make up a new character. The GM restricts their character, and the player immediately picks a character type outside of that restriction. The player then willingly gives in to the GM's first restriction.
Then the GM starts getting very nitpicky about how the player shouldn't try to manipulate the system, as well as getting very specific about disallowing the character concepts the player does come up with.
When the game starts, another player immediately becomes antagonistic towards the player for no reason whatsoever and starts the inevitable process of the GM calling for willpower rolls for the PCs to fight each other.
Yeah, the dick quotient of the first chapter is pretty high, but not on the side of Michelle.
Part 2
The GM gives the new player a fucking quiz. Not asking what she enjoyed about the game or anything like that. It's a "What did you learn" quiz.
Then the player tries to be helpful by getting online stuff for the GM. She's obviously new to gaming, but enthusiastic. The GM dislikes the idea of her having a whip.
In the next bit, it's notable that the PC she came into conflict with in part 1 obviously has a big problem with the idea she has a weapon. As in, she shouldn't have any stuff of note. In a later part it makes it sound like the problem is the fear of a fumble, but considering the player involved, I doubt it.
Then it's revealed another PC put a mind mojo on her. Considering this is the third instance of the other PCs wanting to disempower her character, it's no wonder she's having trouble. Oh, and the GM is short changing her on XP too.
The next bit is a part where the player who mind mojoed Michelle tricks the GM on going on a date with her. Somehow this is an illustration that Michelle is strange and dysfunctional, not that the group plays real mind games with it's members.
Then there's a bit about how Michelle is getting stuff from the internet again. Obviously the GM thinks something is wrong with this. He approves one of her rituals which he thinks is a good one that she created. But he learns later that it was something she found on the internet, and that makes it bad.
The next part is a classic example of stripping player control of their character. The player obviously fears a trap of some sort, but the GM forces her to do what he wants anyway. The GM also admits he would like to make her lick from the bottom of his shoe every time she does something he doesn't approve of.
A little while later, there's some simple newbie overreaction to a situation. But considering everything which came before, I can't help but feel there's more than enough in-game reason for her to be extremely skittish about every little thing. It's also notable the Gangrel she came into conflict with early on is right there to grab information meant for her. There's certainly a lot of petty and vindictive one-upsmanship going on.
Part 3
This was as far as I read in detail. Apparrently this is 1 and 1/2 years into the game. Michelle exhibits all the signs you'd expect of a player in a group where her character is constantly deprotagonized and she's used as a whipping girl of the rest of the party. The GM talks about "teaching her a lesson" which I imagine was a regular occurrence.
The GM invites a new player to the game who makes up a character prettier than Michelle's, and that attractiveness suddenly has impact in the game, unlike Michelle's. Reading between the lines, the other player has a "special" GM given privledged background. New sweetie of the GM? The later chapters seem to somewhat confirm this, as the new player becomes his regular confidant.
There's an amusing bit where Michelle gets a boyfriend she invites to the game. The GM decides he likes the guy when he dumps Michelle and says he never liked her to begin with.
It gets pretty illuminating when Michelle starts using the IC/OC knowledge card to her own benefit as it was used as a weapon against her earlier on. Obviously, interparty conflict isn't adventure derailing, unless Michelle initiated it.
Finishing this part out, there are some genuine flaws Michelle has. She's an airhead. She's somewhat argumentative, and she has no desire to learn the game she's playing. Then again, it seems she was discouraged from bothering to learn the game at every turn, because any mechanics she did learn were made worthless or just used against her.
She does sound like she's developing some genuine creepy gamer behaviour. Then again, she proclaims herself a "wiccan" and the motivation for such is teenage style rebellion against her parents.
After skimming part 4, I really wonder if the whole thing is some kind of joke series. That the whole point isn't that Michelle is the bad gamer, but that the rest of the group is. The GM continues to develop overly controlling habits, and Michelle continues to devolve as a player. Part 5 brings the question of whether this is all an elaborate joke about Vampire players by offering a nicely conflicting example of how Michelle doesn't pay any attention and then following it with Michelle quoting from meticulous notes she's made about the previous session. But the big thing is that the GM dreams up a storyline intentionally to kill Michelle's character and humiliater her as a player. It's capped off at the end of part 6, where the GM has killed off her character and she makes a new one. Once again, he goes for a nice blood bonding trap against her will. Nice folks.
But Part 7 has a bit that kind of sums it all up.
QuoteMichelle: "I am SAYING, that you don't listen to me. You change stuff around and I ask you stuff but you either ignore me or screw me over and I am sick of it. It's like what you are doing right now you're not listening."
Well, it was something fun to read tonight and worked up some healthy geek rage. So now to bed.
Seems like a typically dysfunctional RPG group soap opera to me.
Dense player: check
Patronizing GM: check
Written about, at length, and published online: check
Fuck, I can't believe I wasted more than 10 minutes on this waste of bandwidth.
Wow...I'm not going to follow that link. Its somebody else's soap opera. Plus that was a pretty long-winded synopsis.
I spot 3 or 4 obvious mistakes or turning pints in that whole story where things went badly or could have gone differently.
1. She wants to look up info on the internet - thats fine if she is new to gaming. I'd encourage that but have a clear whatmade sense for the current campaign and what didn't.
2. Character creation - the guidelines or rules should be the same for every player, no special favors.
3. Romance/ couple issues should never get mixed up in an RPG campaign. Its always better to try to head that off before it gets to that point.
- Ed C.
I read half a page of that stuff, and decided the writer/GM was more of a dick than the player he was attacking.
Eek.
Yeah, it's a pretty good example of how not to introduce someone to roleplaying.
Quote from: The_Shadow;249983I read half a page of that stuff, and decided the writer/GM was more of a dick than the player he was attacking.
That is actually quite common when you look into threads like "the most stupid mistake a player has ever made in your game" or something like that.
You get lots of gamemasters who think they are god, allowed to railroad (fudge dice etc.) and that they are somewhat something "more" than the players at their table.
Often they don't even get that they are at the fault and post in those threads with a certain pride about how they manage despite their stupid players.
What I don't get about all this is why people actually put up with that. I mean if the gamemaster sucks, vote with your feet (as in leave the room, not as in kick him).
Quote from: Saphim;250020What I don't get about all this is why people actually put up with that. I mean if the gamemaster sucks, vote with your feet (as in leave the room, not as in kick him).
Agreed, but maybe if bad GMs got kicked in nads on occasion, they would either adapt or retire.
I'm joining the chorus about how much of a dick the GM was. It doesn't help that the dialogue he writes for himself makes him come across as a patronising jerk - and this is his side of the story.
If there's one lesson I've learned in my GMing career, it's this: never, ever smother a new player's enthusiasm. Channel it, rather than blocking it off. This excitement and enthusiasm is probably the most important thing a new player can bring to the game and it is too precious to waste.
Here's the icing on the shit cake.
QuoteA PERSONAL NOTE FROM MARC: Seven yearsSeven years I have been playing in these games and I have never ever seen this happen. Allow me to set up the scene. As I write this, I still don't know what to make of it. Michelle's new character (A lowly Caitiff) has become some kind of prophet of the Jyhad. She receives messages in the form of dreams which tantalize and pick at her curiosity. So, calling in a favor or two, she gets a letter from the local Tremere Regent, giving her permission to go to the Head Chantry in Vienna where the Tremeres there will try a prod her brain. Well during her brief stay there, the Gargoyles of the chantry revolt. Michelle, in all her genius decides that since the Tremere are occupied at the moment, she will try snooping around. She finds the torpored body of her old character
Michelle: "I grab it and I try to flee!"
Me: "How much blood do you have in your system?"
Michelle: "Ummmthree."
Me: "Make a self-control roll please."
Michelle: "Oh god no."
*Michelle rolls three dice. We are all breathless.*
Michelle: "I got a 10!"
Me: "And?"
Michelle: *voice really low* "Andtwo 1's"
Me: "Uh oh."
Michelle: "But I got a 10!"
Me: "The 1 cancels the 10 Michelle, which means you have one 1 left over. That means you botch."
Michelle: "Butbut"
Me: "Your character frenzies, and you sink your teeth into the Tremere":
Michelle "NoMarc please!"
Me: "You diablerize your old character"
Michelle: "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
I'm not even sure what diablerizing is, but I'm guessing it means the destruction of the target. Assuming that's right, this is the height of dickish GMing.
How's that a dick move? I'll admit up front that I have zero experience with Vampire, but that situation sounds consonant with stories I've heard from others who've played the game extensively.
I'm honestly curious, btw, not trying to be argumentative for argumentativeness's sake.
Quote from: Warthur;250149If there's one lesson I've learned in my GMing career, it's this: never, ever smother a new player's enthusiasm. Channel it, rather than blocking it off. This excitement and enthusiasm is probably the most important thing a new player can bring to the game and it is too precious to waste.
QTMFT!
Quote from: The_Shadow;249983I read half a page of that stuff, and decided the writer/GM was more of a dick than the player he was attacking.
Me, too. I skimmed the first one and thought, "You know what? I'm just not
that bored. I don't want to cringe through more of this..."
Seanchai
Quote from: The_Shadow;249983I read half a page of that stuff, and decided the writer/GM was more of a dick than the player he was attacking.
I didn't get that. To me it was more analogous to being assigned to train a new employee who didn't want to pay attention to what you were trying to teach them. You almost can't help but start to dislike the person and stop trying to help them, which leads to them becoming more of a screw-up, which starts to make you actively want them to fail and/or get lost.
But like others, I only read a page or so.
Quote from: KenHR;250215How's that a dick move? I'll admit up front that I have zero experience with Vampire, but that situation sounds consonant with stories I've heard from others who've played the game extensively.
I'm honestly curious, btw, not trying to be argumentative for argumentativeness's sake.
What happened is that her old character got put into torpor (basically a coma), and was stored at the clan headquarters.
Wandering around, Michelle's new character found the body, and had to make a roll to see if they had enough self-control to avoid eating the body, which they failed.
Murdering another vampire is one of the big crimes in the world of the game, and means that everyone is expected to kill you. Sometimes you can get away with it depending on the status of yourself and the victim, but Michelle's new character is a Caitiff, who have the lowest status.
So I think it was done by the rules as written, but there's a certain air of "gotcha!" about it.
Quote from: Technomancer;250260I didn't get that. To me it was more analogous to being assigned to train a new employee who didn't want to pay attention to what you were trying to teach them. You almost can't help but start to dislike the person and stop trying to help them, which leads to them becoming more of a screw-up, which starts to make you actively want them to fail and/or get lost.
But like others, I only read a page or so.
Only a page or so here, too, but that's exactly the impression I got. The GM laid out the options available to the player, which the player completely ignored. I'm just not seeing some ogre crushing a fluffy snowflake kitten's enthusiasm.
Quote from: Age of Fable;250263What happened is that her old character got put into torpor (basically a coma), and was stored at the clan headquarters.
Wandering around, Michelle's new character found the body, and had to make a roll to see if they had enough self-control to avoid eating the body, which they failed.
Murdering another vampire is one of the big crimes in the world of the game, and means that everyone is expected to kill you. Sometimes you can get away with it depending on the status of yourself and the victim, but Michelle's new character is a Caitiff, who have the lowest status.
So I think it was done by the rules as written, but there's a certain air of "gotcha!" about it.
Ah, I can see where that's coming from, then. Thanks for the explanation!
I was bored enough, killing time before work, to read several pages. I don't want to game with any of them. The floppy-spined GM, the ditz he claims to loathe, his gal pal. Yuck all round.
I however, am that bored. As I've said before I always thought I was terrible at running Vampire, but so far this stuff has made me feel lots better about our old WW games.
I really enjoy introducing new people to the hobby and this GM sets off my rage stimulus. To top it off the group takes the game so damn seriously that they're assholes to the girl and then they actually have the balls to say things like, "I mean it’s just a game for Christ’s sake!”
Real good logic on their parts.
Quote from: KenHR;250215How's that a dick move?
Well, let's see...
The GM decides to lay a trap to cause Michelle to lose her character to "teach her a lesson." Later the trap is sprung. She loses her character and is forced to create a new one.
Then, some time later, the GM creates a situation where Michelle finds her old character and dangles the carrot of possible resurrection. But the carrot is poisoned, and he "teaches her a lesson" again by having her destroy her old character.
I have a feeling his call would have been the same regardless of her roll. The sole purpose of the event was to be mean.
Well after reading more I'm kind of skeptical at just how dumb Michelle is supposed to be. Sure it's possible but since it's coming from the person who wrote the threads I have to wonder if any of it (and how much) was exaggerated.
However this does prove the ST is kind of goofy for not just discussing his issues openly and instead had to use the game to teach lessons.
Quote from: KenHR;250215How's that a dick move? I'll admit up front that I have zero experience with Vampire, but that situation sounds consonant with stories I've heard from others who've played the game extensively.
I'm honestly curious, btw, not trying to be argumentative for argumentativeness's sake.
It's a dick move because there's nothing in Vampire that says a character should feel some kind of instinctive desire to diablerize a sleeping vamp. The entire scenario is pure bullshit.
The GM is taking advantage of the new players ignorance to force her to do something she shouldn't have to do in the first place.
A GM does have the right to set limits on character types, but those limits should be flexible if the player has good explanations/ideas.
They should also be well-explained.
Actually it means more than mere destruction. It is an act of utter perversion in which one vampire drinks the heartblood of another and with it the soul, destroying the target completely and staining his own soul in the process - forever.
Oh and I just read it to the end.
The player of the vampire who was suddenly that much more beautiful than michele, that solana girl, she became the girlfriend of the gamemaster along the way...
Even assuming that it's written word totally accuratly and without exageration or omission, the GM and his players are a bunch of cocks. Seriously, in part 6, (yeah, I like reading about stupid shit,) inspired by the story 'Eric and the Gazebo,' he decides to replace some known location with a gazebo. Michelle obviously thinking something is weird (gazebo appearing overnight) tries to investigae, but the gazebo is totally ordianry and scans as totally normal. Now, she's not confused by what a gazebo is, just confused and curious why a gazebo suddenly is where a gazebo was not. The GM is so fucking amused at his cleverness, he's laughing out loud at her c-waazy behavior. Oh, how silly of her to be curious about a gazebo suddenly appearing where none had been before! Oh, how foolish of her, how droll of the GM!
What a bunch of fucking dildos.
The time spent on writing that load of shite should have been spent learning how to be a functional adult and then GM. Instead of reading it I should have been surfing for porn or something....
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Age of Fable;250263What happened is that her old character got put into torpor (basically a coma), and was stored at the clan headquarters.
Wandering around, Michelle's new character found the body, and had to make a roll to see if they had enough self-control to avoid eating the body, which they failed.
Murdering another vampire is one of the big crimes in the world of the game, and means that everyone is expected to kill you. Sometimes you can get away with it depending on the status of yourself and the victim, but Michelle's new character is a Caitiff, who have the lowest status.
So I think it was done by the rules as written, but there's a certain air of "gotcha!" about it.
There normally isn't a "self-control" check to avoid diablerie in Vampire in the first place.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;250392There normally isn't a "self-control" check to avoid diablerie in Vampire in the first place.
Exactly. Not under normal circumstances anyway and she
was under normal circumstances. She should have blown a WP on that roll and fucked over the GM's retarded trap. Granted, she was a moron too (ignoring character generation guidelines like that would have forced me to drive a railroad spike through her spinal cord), but this guy was beyond prickish. Then again, and I say this as a WW gamer, most WW ST's I've played under have been assholes like this. Only a few have been fair, impartial, and
good.
-=Grim=-
Eh...
She would've had more fun playing in a good GURPS campaign.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Technomancer;250260I didn't get that. To me it was more analogous to being assigned to train a new employee who didn't want to pay attention to what you were trying to teach them....
You pay people to play with you?
Quote from: Vaecrius;250441You pay people to play with you?
I would imagine he does, with time and effort.
Note, I'll make no comment on the articles. I wasn't there and refuse to judge with only the account from one side. Even with both sides, it's unlikely I'd have any insight into the truth of the matter.
Quote from: Koltar;250432Eh...
She would've had more fun playing in a good GURPS campaign.
- Ed C.
That's like saying a mentally handicapped person would be better off playing in the middle of a country road rather than a 4 lane highway. Sure there's less cars but then again one is all it takes.
Thing is - I don't think she was mentally handicapped. We're getting a biased view from a possibly immature GM.
- Ed C.
Why the hell didn't he kick her out of his ga--
-- oh, because he wanted something to write about.
Jeez. Pathos, pathos all 'round.
Quote from: KenHR;250265Only a page or so here, too, but that's exactly the impression I got. The GM laid out the options available to the player, which the player completely ignored. I'm just not seeing some ogre crushing a fluffy snowflake kitten's enthusiasm.
a) I think it's entirely excusable for a new player to forget a couple of things; there's a lot of stuff to digest in Vampire character gen.
b) So, this girl's crime was going away, researching the WoD, and coming back with a character concept she was really enthused by? If a new player independently looked into the game I was running for them I'd be thrilled.
Quote from: Koltar;250489Thing is - I don't think she was mentally handicapped. We're getting a biased view from a possibly immature GM.
o_O I think you're taking his analogy a bit further than he intended.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;250448That's like saying a mentally handicapped person would be better off playing in the middle of a country road rather than a 4 lane highway. Sure there's less cars but then again one is all it takes.
So you're suggesting the choice of game would have made at least some difference in the risk of douchebaggery involved? How would it?
Quote from: Warthur;250512a) I think it's entirely excusable for a new player to forget a couple of things; there's a lot of stuff to digest in Vampire character gen.
b) So, this girl's crime was going away, researching the WoD, and coming back with a character concept she was really enthused by? If a new player independently looked into the game I was running for them I'd be thrilled.
Yeah, I'm with that. A key rule that I would have is not to shoot a new player's ideas down and simply tell them "pick something else". Heck, I tend to do that even with experienced players, but especially with new ones.
Quote from: Vaecrius;250531So you're suggesting the choice of game would have made at least some difference in the risk of douchebaggery involved? How would it?
I think if one is playing a 'dark' game, the chances of 'dark' (i.e. asshat) things happening rises.
Screwing the players is part fo the WoD experience from what I've read of the material. In Wraith for example that was an assignment handed out to another player as well as one held by the GM.
Note: This statement is independent of the events on the website. It's a general statement about games.
Her character comes from the lowest scum of the Vampire world.
Her character was low on blood.
She rolled a botch on a willpower roll.
I see no problem with that scene. It's dramatic, tragic, terrifyingly evil and perverse - AKA the whole fucking point of Vampire!!
If she rolled anything other than a botch, I would have ruled differently as the ST. Sounds like an awesome story that will get retold. Way Bad Shit is the whole point of a botch mechanic.
Quote from: Warthur;250512b) So, this girl's crime was going away, researching the WoD, and coming back with a character concept she was really enthused by? If a new player independently looked into the game I was running for them I'd be thrilled.
From what I can tell, her "crime" is being a poor judge of character.
Seanchai
Quote from: Seanchai;250611From what I can tell, her "crime" is being a poor judge of character.
Seanchai
Playing Vampire wasn't a wise move either.
Quote from: Vaecrius;250531o_O I think you're taking his analogy a bit further than he intended.
So you're suggesting the choice of game would have made at least some difference in the risk of douchebaggery involved? How would it?
EDIT: Yes, my use of the words "mentally handicapped" were a bit exaggerated. Although if she has the social issues as strongly as this guy suggests than she probably has some sort of serious disorder going on.
I was kind of joking around, I don't know whether she's stupid or not but if we take the ST's word for it, she is pretty dumb.
I was also more focused on Koltar's use of the word "good." If we are to take Michelle at the value given to her in her ST's posts it's very likely she would be argumentative and disruptive in any game whether it's good or not. A good game (one without cowardly vengeful ST syndrome) might lessen some of her problems but I doubt it would improve things enough to make the keeping her around worthwhile.
Quote from: Koltar;250489Thing is - I don't think she was mentally handicapped. We're getting a biased view from a possibly immature GM.
- Ed C.
Quite possible, it's hard to tell. There's also the possibility that he's being completely honest and really was frustrated by his game's problems, even though he did as much as anyone to cause them.
I'm just gonna have to side with the previous assumption in this thread that I wouldn't want to game with any of these people, too much drama for my taste.
Quote from: gleichman;250620Playing Vampire wasn't a wise move either.
Vampire is too awesome, but it seems like many folks who play, play like asses.
Seanchai
Quote from: Seanchai;250896Vampire is too awesome, but it seems like many folks who play, play like asses.
Seanchai
It's Chaotic Asshole, all the way down.
Quote from: Seanchai;250896Vampire is too awesome, but it seems like many folks who play, play like asses.
Seanchai
Is it me or does it seem to be the worst game for attracting players who actually treat the other players the way their characters would and call it roleplaying. Mentally anyway, I've never had Tzimisce player try to fleshcraft me but I have had a Ventrue player in a shop treat me like a peasant.
I mentioned in casual conversation that I liked to play Nosferatu and I don't know if he tried kicking up a LARP right there but his tone got real condescending and he started interrupting me at every turn. I'm surprised he didn't expect me to "kiss the ring."
Needless to say I went back to my shopping.
Quote from: StormBringer;250901It's Chaotic Asshole, all the way down.
My most successful Vampire character ever (in terms of how well received he was by the group), was when I decided to make a genuinely good guy who'd gotten vamped, because I got tired of the fact that everyone around me were basically Chaotic Neutral at best, and downright evil more often than not.
The GMs ended up bringing him back from the dead so many times it became something of a joke.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;250914I'm surprised he didn't expect me to "kiss the ring."
eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww
Geee, nicely done Koltar. Another system war thread is exactly what this forum needed.
...
"It wasn't awkward until you said it was awkward."
Quote from: Saphim;250925Geee, nicely done Koltar. Another system war thread is exactly what this forum needed.
Where's the war?! I wasn't told about any war! Love me some war! Wanna make sex on that war and have little war babies!
Really though despite the criticisms levelled at Vampire I think things have been rather calm. Popular systems draw in all kinds of players good and bad which inevitably leads to extra criticism for that game. Mature players of more popular game systems I would hope have thicker skin.
After all, I played WoW quite a bit and was known as a very skilled player to those I played with. I don't take any slight when people bash the less savory types that play it, after all I'm confident I'm not one of them.
Quote from: Saphim;250925Geee, nicely done Koltar. Another system war thread is exactly what this forum needed.
What the *Bleep* are you talking about?
I was friendly joshing that she might've had more fun with a nice game of
GURPS (or D&D, or TRAVELLER)...because thats the system I know best.
I'm didn't even mention World of Darkness or disparage other game systems.
Others had their fun doing that.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Vaecrius;250924eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww
Haha, literal ring (jewelry) not figurative ring. Come on, that's something a Toreador would have expected of me. :P
Quote from: KoltarWhat the *Bleep* are you talking about?
Don't worry, everyone else realizes this. :)
Plus in a way you had a point, perhaps if she were introduced to gaming by a better GM things would have ended differently. We just don't know.
Quote from: Koltar;250928What the *Bleep* are you talking about?
I was friendly joshing that she might've had more fun with a nice game of GURPS (or D&D, or TRAVELLER)...because thats the system I know best.
I'm didn't even mention World of Darkness or disparage other game systems.
Others had their fun doing that.
- Ed C.
Not saying you are doing the warring, but it started from your post.
Quote from: Koltar;250928What the *Bleep* are you talking about?
I was friendly joshing that she might've had more fun with a nice game of GURPS (or D&D, or TRAVELLER)...because thats the system I know best.
If you haven't noticed, Koltar suggests gurps for everything. He's like that old Nutkinland skit with the dear Abby sort who solved everything through gurps.
Besides, attacking the worst stereotypical segment of a player base isn't much of an attack on the game.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;250914Is it me or does it seem to be the worst game for attracting players who actually treat people the way their characters would and call it roleplaying. Mentally anyway, I've never had Tzimisce player try to fleshcraft me but I have had a Ventrue player in a shop treat me like a peasant.
In our best campaign, one PC worked with an NPC to trap another PC in a block of solidifed air, dump gasoline all over him, and then burned him unalive.
That said, both players talked about it out of character and there were no hard feelings.
(Of course, the second player went on to play an equally clueless and disruptive character, so it didn't really help...)
Seanchai
Hello,
Allow me to introduce myself. I am the author of the Chronicles of Michelle. *BOOO! HISSSS BOOOO!* Reading these comments has provided me with much entertainment and food for thought. I just thought I would throw myself on here in the hopes to clear the air a little or to answer any questions you may have.
Let me start by saying WHY I wrote these things. I am a tech writer by trade. I get paid for writing, but I also love it. It's partially therapeutic for me. Also bear in mind that I wrote the Chronicles over ten years ago in a forum thread titled "Who is the worst player you have ever had?". V:tM (Vampire the Masquerade) has gone through several rule changes and edition changes before being discontinued/reborn as Vampire: The Requiem. The vampire clan that Michelle played, no longer exists because it was considered "broken".
Now...on to the dissection of the OP's critique:
Part 1
Michelle and I met up in a pub and we discussed vampires to great length. She had a great love for the subject matter as did I. She was new to role-playing so I went to task of explaining and detailing everything as best I could. Now, on the part of me being "nitpicky"; at the time I had played the game enough times to know what character concepts work and what doesn't. Those of you familiar with the system will know what I am I am talking about. If you create a vampire game and specifically state that the theme is "Romance and drama" ala Anne Rice and are presented with a character who is akin to a lone-wolf "Rambo", you would be inclined to tell that player to go back to the drawing board. If that makes me nitpicky, so be it.
Part 2
Gabriel2 wrote :>The GM gives the new player a fucking quiz. Not asking what she enjoyed about the game or anything like that. It's a "What did you learn" quiz.<
The OP is referring to the experience points award system which is pretty much universal throughout all of White-Wolf's games. These are not terribly complicated. XP awards are given based on what the PC's accomplished in game. Amusing anecdotes, heroic actions, witty comebacks, etc...These are all noted down by the ST and after the game the ST reveals these notes and probes ALL the players and awards XP based on these findings. Admittedly I don't do this as often anymore. I find that I much prefer giving everyone the same amount of XP with the caveat that should someone have a shining RP moment, they get a little bonus.
Gabriel2 wrote: >Then the player tries to be helpful by getting online stuff for the GM. She's obviously new to gaming, but enthusiastic. The GM dislikes the idea of her having a whip.<
On the contrary. I actually loved the idea even if it was a bit counter-thematic to the game setting. Also, using a bullwhip is difficult and her chances of failing to use it was very high. I warned her and even showed her the rules on this but she really REALLY wanted it. Disaster ensued. To this day, the players involved in that scene still talk about it.
Gabriel2 wrote: >The next bit is a part where the player who mind mojoed Michelle tricks the GM on going on a date with her. Somehow this is an illustration that Michelle is strange and dysfunctional, not that the group plays real mind games with it's members.<
Not one of my shining moments I admit. It was rather awkward for me but hey...Michelle isn't the first lady I was set up to go on a date with (even by accident). There were no mind games being played. It was simply a comedy of errors and miscommunication.
Gabriel2 wrote: >The next part is a classic example of stripping player control of their character. The player obviously fears a trap of some sort, but the GM forces her to do what he wants anyway. The GM also admits he would like to make her lick from the bottom of his shoe every time she does something he doesn't approve of.<
Boy, way to take things out of context! Michelle was having her character do something that is considered by most to be utterly disgusting....even for a vampire. It was akin to someone licking the bottom of my boot, which was the point I was trying to make.
Part 3
Gabriel2 wrote: >This was as far as I read in detail. Apparrently this is 1 and 1/2 years into the game. Michelle exhibits all the signs you'd expect of a player in a group where her character is constantly deprotagonized and she's used as a whipping girl of the rest of the party. The GM talks about "teaching her a lesson" which I imagine was a regular occurrence.<
*lol*. I love how this makes me sound sneaky and underhanded. Yes, I love "teaching lessons" to players but I prefer to call it "narrating the actions and consequences". I write my stories for the players and most, if not all of what inspires me is what the players do in-game. A player is a storyteller's number one resource. Any action they take has a direct consequence to them or the storyline. The consequences may be immediate or they may occur a year down the road. It keeps the games character-driven and I don't know any player who doesn't like it when I incorporate their actions as part of the overall story arch. Now for a World of Darkness game, this may cause to keep the players on their toes. This is supposed to be a horror game after all. Michelle, knew full well that what she was doing might come back to haunt her character but between you and me, I don't think she was thinking that far ahead and was merely acting on what she thought was fun at the moment. *shrug* She is not the first player I encountered (or the last) to be guilty of this.
Gabriel2 wrote: >The GM invites a new player to the game who makes up a character prettier than Michelle's, and that attractiveness suddenly has impact in the game, unlike Michelle's. Reading between the lines, the other player has a "special" GM given privledged background. New sweetie of the GM?.<
At the time no. This new player did later become my girlfriend and I eventually married her. Unfortunately our marriage wasn't meant to last and we divorced a couple of years ago. That being said however, I have it on good authority that Michelle and my ex-wife are still good friends. My life, is not without a certain sense of irony.
As to the theory that this is some kind of joke; no it wasn't a joke but I did try to present it in a fashion that would at least humour the reader. To that end, I think I have succeeded (maybe not to the readers on this board but like I said, the game and its players have matured greatly from the time it was written).
this should be entertaining...
(http://scottdrum.com/images/MalaMala/Hyena_and_Carcass_2.JPG)
*lol*
Yup. I'm used to being torn a new one.
Gather your popcorn kids.
Quote from: DGG;268178Hello,
Hello.
Quote from: DGG;268178Also bear in mind that I wrote the Chronicles over ten years ago in a forum thread titled "Who is the worst player you have ever had?".
The act of roleplaying and what every person defines as good or bad playing/GMing is timeless. 10 years and rules changes won't change people's reaction to your tale. After all, there are plenty of people (on here especially) who still play the older versions of games, including V:TM I would imagine.
I'm curious as to whether you still consider her the worst player. Personally I'd vote for any number of "experienced" players I've met through the years who seemed to never get any better with experience. You've either been really lucky with your players through the years, or you perhaps expected entirely too much of a fledgling player.
Quote from: DGG;268178If you create a vampire game and specifically state that the theme is "Romance and drama" ala Anne Rice and are presented with a character who is akin to a lone-wolf "Rambo", you would be inclined to tell that player to go back to the drawing board. If that makes me nitpicky, so be it.
Perhaps being that she was new you should have went with her to the drawing board? Leaving her to her own devices is just asking for trouble.
Quote from: DGG;268178I find that I much prefer giving everyone the same amount of XP with the caveat that should someone have a shining RP moment, they get a little bonus.
If you do the recap style xp I find it works better at the beginning of a session. Yes, it's crazy to award XP at the beginning of the next session rather than the end of the previous, but hear me out.
At the end of a TV show you don't see "Previously on..." because it's better reserved for a recap after time between episodes. It gets the players back into the mindset and also gives you time and reason to mull over the session yourself.
Plus, I prefer that if I end the night on an intense cliffhanger, I toss my books in my bag and let that be the last word. It's fun to leave them hanging with a "See you next week." :)
Quote from: DGG;268178*snip* whip *snip*
Always say yes. Encourage play, not second guessing. I have a feeling things would have been different if you would have said, "Yes, you can have a whip." The first time she used the whip poorly she probably would have said, "This sucks." and tossed her whip away. Instead, because you tried to talk her out of it, you triggered a defiance in her brain where she refused to let the whip go. Just say yes. No need to "teach lessons", the players will create plenty of their own.
Quote from: DGG;268178As to the theory that this is some kind of joke; no it wasn't a joke but I did try to present it in a fashion that would at least humour the reader. To that end, I think I have succeeded (maybe not to the readers on this board but like I said, the game and its players have matured greatly from the time it was written).
Good to know. Welcome to the boards. :P
Quote from: Idinsinuation;268184Hello.
The act of roleplaying and what every person defines as good or bad playing/GMing is timeless. 10 years and rules changes won't change people's reaction to your tale. After all, there are plenty of people (on here especially) who still play the older versions of games, including V:TM I would imagine.
This is true. It's just that calling me a dick over this is like calling me a baby for wetting my bed when I was 10. I understand your point though.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;268184I'm curious as to whether you still consider her the worst player. Personally I'd vote for any number of "experienced" players I've met through the years who seemed to never get any better with experience. You've either been really lucky with your players through the years, or you perhaps expected entirely too much of a fledgling player.
Was Michelle my worst? Oh no. Worst player I had was my friend Rich. The man was so angry at another player he threw the dice on the table so hard they bounced up and hit the ceiling. We didn't speak to each other for years. We reunited about two years ago. Both him and I were going through a rough patch in our lives and we decided to let bygones be bygones. I'll drink with the guy and carry him home. I don't think I'll ever RP with him though. And yes, I have been EXTREMELLY lucky to have encountered some very good role-players over the years. Was I expecting too much from a fledgling player? Not really. I am introducing my GF to Aberrant right now and she is making typical newbie mistakes but as long as they are enjoying themselves, I think I am doing a good job
Quote from: Idinsinuation;268184If you do the recap style xp I find it works better at the beginning of a session. Yes, it's crazy to award XP at the beginning of the next session rather than the end of the previous, but hear me out.
At the end of a TV show you don't see "Previously on..." because it's better reserved for a recap after time between episodes. It gets the players back into the mindset and also gives you time and reason to mull over the session yourself.
Plus, I prefer that if I end the night on an intense cliffhanger, I toss my books in my bag and let that be the last word. It's fun to leave them hanging with a "See you next week." :)
You're evil! Sounds great in theory but in practice I can't deny my players the XP cookie. They want the XP cookie! They need it! I like cliffhangers too, but I do recall one session where my players threatened to physically hold me down unless I played out the scene completely.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;268184Always say yes. Encourage play, not second guessing. I have a feeling things would have been different if you would have said, "Yes, you can have a whip." The first time she used the whip poorly she probably would have said, "This sucks." and tossed her whip away. Instead, because you tried to talk her out of it, you triggered a defiance in her brain where she refused to let the whip go. Just say yes. No need to "teach lessons", the players will create plenty of their own.
Not to argue the point since I totally get what you are saying. It's just that in this case, it was a catch 22. I tried to be reasonable and explain the game mechanics behind using the whip and yes, her brain probably kicked into "defiance mode". If I simply let her have it and not say anything while she botched the roll, it still would have been my fault because I am being "mean". Her Dex + Melee at the time was a dicepool of three. She never thought to pump blood into her dex nor did she think to use her XP to buy up her stats despite people suggesting she do that (there, defiance mode again).
Thanks for the welcome.
Quote from: DGG;268178At the time no. This new player did later become my girlfriend and I eventually married her. Unfortunately our marriage wasn't meant to last and we divorced a couple of years ago. That being said however, I have it on good authority that Michelle and my ex-wife are still good friends. My life, is not without a certain sense of irony.
This is what happens when you game with friends :frown:
(I'm joking people)
Regards,
David R
I still think she might have enjoyed a nice relaxed game of GURPS: VAMPIRE.
Most of my group are friends with me and each other. Some of them I introduced to each other via the game group.
- Ed C. .
Quote from: Koltar;268279I still think she might have enjoyed a nice relaxed game of GURPS: VAMPIRE.
Most of my group are friends with me and each other. Some of them I introduced to each other via the game group
Oh sure. Anything is possible right? But let me put this in perspective. Saying Michelle would have an easier time with GURPS (or any other RP system) over the WoD Storyteller system is like saying Michelle would have an easier time learing integral calculus than linear algebra. Never mind the fact that Michelle just didn't have the capacity to learn the system but simply didn't care to learn it either. I take great pride in being able to give people clear intructions; especially when I write them down. My dear Michelle wouldn't even bother to read those instructions. Then during game time would say "Well how can you expect me to learn when I didn't read it!?". Gee...You got me.
Besides, at the time, you (or anyone else) would have tremendous challenge ahead of you if your goal was to convince Michelle to try another gaming system. If you could manage that, then I would like to hire you to convince my step-son to eat his brocolli.
Quote from: DGG;268191This is true. It's just that calling me a dick over this is like calling me a baby for wetting my bed when I was 10. I understand your point though.
I'm not saying that you're a dick now. I'm saying that from what you wrote then, you sounded like you were a dick back then. You may have gotten better since then. Like a number of others here, I read the posts and concluded that the problem in question was the GM rather than the player.
People come to a game looking to have fun, not to be taught a lesson. For example, I've often had players who were largely uninterested in the game mechanics. If that's a big problem for everyone -- say it's a tactical team-based game -- then we'd simply tell the player that the game isn't a good fit for them. But if I accept the player in, then I try to include their ideas and see that they have fun. I particular, I don't shoot down a new player's ideas and simply tell them "pick something else". Really, I tend to do that even with experienced players, but especially with new ones.
Quote from: jhkim;268437I'm not saying that you're a dick now. I'm saying that from what you wrote then, you sounded like you were a dick back then. You may have gotten better since then. Like a number of others here, I read the posts and concluded that the problem in question was the GM rather than the player.
People can draw any conclusions they want. However, if they are going to critique me like the OP did, the least they could do is quote me properly. The OP seems to have a theory of dysfunctional gaming groups and is using my work to illustrate that theory. Heck, I am not even sure if he read the Chronicles or just speed read them. I'm still waiting on the OP for a response.
Quote from: jhkim;268437People come to a game looking to have fun, not to be taught a lesson. For example, I've often had players who were largely uninterested in the game mechanics.
As I said in my first post in this thread. I don't actively seek to "teach players a lesson". Where people draw that conclusion from is beyond me. The Chronicle of Michelle have been floating around the net for ten years now. This is the first time I heard of anyone coming to that conclusion.
Any action a PC makes in my games has consequences, be they stupid or not. With Michelle, a lot of those consequences were either humorous or disastrous. I didn't seek to trap her either as the OP maintains. Michelle KNEW what was coming. As for the game system itself, I don't know if you are familiar with White-Wolf's storytelling system, but I assure you it isn't that complicated. I can teach it to an 8-year old in 5 minutes.
Quote from: jhkim;268437I'm not saying that you're a dick now.
Joining a board just to rehash something someone said about you months ago - based on something that happened years ago - isn't too far out from the "dick move" category.
Quote from: jhkim;268437Like a number of others here, I read the posts and concluded that the problem in question was the GM rather than the player.
Yep.
Seanchai
Quote from: Seanchai;268479Joining a board just to rehash something someone said about you months ago - based on something that happened years ago - isn't too far out from the "dick move" category.
Oh I'm sorry, did I splashland into this little sandbox and ruin your fun?
I had no idea there was deadline to hop in on the discussion. Did I break a rule here? I figured that I might have been allowed some lattitude because...oh I dunno...'cuz I'm the FREAKIN' AUTHOR!?
If ...on the off chance that you were a dick back then : Do you think you've improved since then ?
Gotten better and all that?
- Ed C.
Quote from: Seanchai;268479Joining a board just to rehash something someone said about you months ago - based on something that happened years ago - isn't too far out from the "dick move" category.
I'd say it's pretty much the definition of pure sadsackery. You have to be a pretty pathetic little worm to go Googling up your name just to necro old threads on obscure message boards.
Quote from: Koltar;268523If ...on the off chance that you were a dick back then : Do you think you've improved since then ?
Gotten better and all that?
Oh hell yes. Then again, a storyteller is only as good as his players.
Oh, and it helps that the new game corrected a lot of the problems I used to have.
Quote from: J Arcane;268524I'd say it's pretty much the definition of pure sadsackery. You have to be a pretty pathetic little worm to go Googling up your name just to necro old threads on obscure message boards.
Ooh! Can you feel the love!?
I don't keep a softcopy of the chronicles anymore. Thanks to the internet, I just google it whenever I want and wherever I want. I found myself needing the chronicles as a reference for another discussion I was having on another board and lookee here...I found this little place of love and joy. I think I might stick around awhile.
Quote from: DGG;268550I think I might stick around awhile.
I'm betting you won't.
DGG, I read your posts in their entirety, and you and your group did behave like dicks. Granted, Michelle was an idiot...but neither you nor your group helped the situation. Making her new character devour her old character was 100% pure dickishness, no matter what the rules say. There are some places you just don't go.
Plus, inner party conflict is a no-no. When another player immediately started shit with Michelle (who was a completely new player, I might add) the second she started the game, you should have stopped it immediately. "I'm just playing my character" is never an excuse for a player to be a dick. Plus, every single time she tried to do something you disapproved of (which was often), you'd cockblock her, and try to talk her out of whatever stupidity she was about to do. Let the players do something stupid, and they'll come to their own conclusions after the shit hits the fan.
You weren't the Anti-Christ back then, but you were a dick. I hope you're a better person now.
Edit: I hope it doesn't seem like I'm picking on you. When my friends and I would play the card game, Munchkin, it used to bring out our inner douchebag. It made me realize that a game, just like any other experience can influence human behavior (in either a positive or negative way). Now I'm starting to wonder if I should just run AD&D again...:hmm:
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268602DGG, I read your posts in their entirety, and you and your group did behave like dicks. Granted, Michelle was an idiot...but neither you nor your group helped the situation. Making her new character devour her old character was 100% pure dickishness, no matter what the rules say. There are some places you just don't go.
I think you are the first person on here I can actually believe when they say they read the whole thing. I don't know if you play the game though or understand the rules to diablerie so bear with me. It is one of the most horrific things a vampire can do. Michelle devoured the soul of her old character. It was one of those "Holy SHIT!" moments in RP. When some people read that the first time I posted it, people were pretty stunned. Now the rules to diablerie are pretty clear but the aftermath of such an event is vague and it is vague with a purpose. It gives different play groups the oppurtunity to explore it. This is a horror game after all. Considering her old character was old and powerful by now, I asked Michelle if she would like the idea of having her old charcter "possess" her new one (diablerie has a tendency to do that). She jumped at the opportunity.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268602Plus, inner party conflict is a no-no. When another player immediately started shit with Michelle (who was a completely new player, I might add) the second she started the game, you should have stopped it immediately. "I'm just playing my character" is never an excuse for a player to be a dick. Plus, every single time she tried to do something you disapproved of (which was often), you'd cockblock her, and try to talk her out of whatever stupidity she was about to do. Let the players do something stupid, and they'll come to their own conclusions after the shit hits the fan.
I hear what you are saying. Truly I do. If a player does something so blatently stupid, either pull them aside to address the problem OOC and if they persist, let them do it and reap the consequences of their actions. This sounds very reasonable and this was practiced by me back then as it is now. Michelle was the ONLY player I ever encountered who never came to her own conclusions. That was one of the points. Michelle treated the whole game like it was "happy newbie fun time" All. The. Time. If I didn't allow her happy fun time, or tried to reason with her or *gasp* let her reap the consequences, then the fault was mine. It's like a student blaming the teacher for her poor grade (despite the fact that she never studied, never took notes and never paid attention in class).
As for the Gangrel getting in her face from get go; I allowed it to emphasize a couple of things A) Players are playing vampires and vampires have a hard time keeping their cool in stressful situations B) Gangrels and Tremeres (played by the two players in question), don't like each other and C) Virtually all first time newbies have to deal with the inner beast their first game. That being said I never allow players to go for the jugular or do underhanded shit (blood bond anyone?). It was a horror game but it wasn't a cut-throat game. I've played in cut-throat vampire games. Spent three hours making a character only to have it killed by another player 30minutes into the game. For some people, this is fine and they prefer the game that way. Not for me.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268602Edit: I hope it doesn't seem like I'm picking on you.
No not at all. I appreciate you taking the time to post that. BTW, if you think munchkin is bad, I've seen some Magic games that got pretty ugly.
Quote from: DGG;268178Hello,
A bunch of self important crap.
Whatever happened to the days where the number one job of the GM/DM was to ensure that ALL your players where having a good time, because it is suppose to be a GAME and a LEISURE activity that is suppose to be done with other people who wanna kick back and have some fun and temporarily escape their mundane lives.
Now most groups have turned into these dysfunctional things that involve power struggles, high school drama and people who feel that they have gained some kind of
power and exploit it in the most dickish manner they can conceive. And, the other people, in the group, let them.
Do me a favour and let me know where you game so I don't accidentally end up wasting my time joining your group. Because I promise you, I'll get up and leave as soon as any of these childish games start.
I'm a firm believer in no gaming is better than bad gaming.
Oh god. I remember these from the first time round. Tremendously entertaining. Unfortunately, like premillenial tension and nu-metal, they already seem somewhat dated. Still, I guess dysfunction never goes out of style.
Quote from: Nobilis;268638Whatever happened to the days where the number one job of the GM/DM was to ensure that ALL your players where having a good time, because it is suppose to be a GAME and a LEISURE activity that is suppose to be done with other people who wanna kick back and have some fun and temporarily escape their mundane lives.
Now most groups have turned into these dysfunctional things that involve power struggles, high school drama and people who feel that they have gained some kind of power and exploit it in the most dickish manner they can conceive. And, the other people, in the group, let them.
Do me a favour and let me know where you game so I don't accidentally end up wasting my time joining your group. Because I promise you, I'll get up and leave as soon as any of these childish games start.
I'm a firm believer in no gaming is better than bad gaming.
This is one of those weird things about white wolf games. The parallels between the IC behaviour that the game encourages (backbiting power politics in vampire, nitpicking examination of metaphysics in mage, etc) and the OOC behaviour of the behaviour of the players attracted to that kind of game is quite amusing. Also remember the era that this was written. Roleplaying as Serious Storytelling was very much in fashion then.
Quote from: Nobilis;268638Do me a favour and let me know where you game so I don't accidentally end up wasting my time joining your group. Because I promise you, I'll get up and leave as soon as any of these childish games start.
I'm a firm believer in no gaming is better than bad gaming.
Brossard. It's a suburb of Montreal. (Quebec Canada).
As for joining my group, I'm afraid I'll have to ask you to take a number. There are roughly 20 people waiting on the sideline bench waiting to join. (Gods I wish I could clone myself)
Quote from: (un)reason;268639This is one of those weird things about white wolf games. The parallels between the IC behaviour that the game encourages (backbiting power politics in vampire, nitpicking examination of metaphysics in mage, etc) and the OOC behaviour of the behaviour of the players attracted to that kind of game is quite amusing. Also remember the era that this was written. Roleplaying as Serious Storytelling was very much in fashion then.
And that's just table-top! Don't get me started on the LARPs!
It all depends on the group you have, the ability to hammer out guidelines, and being able to arbitrate. White-Wolf developers were notorious for sneering at their fan base whenever we came to them with problems and ideas. If you think you guys are being mean and nasty to me, you should have seen what Justin Achilli said to me back in the day when I made the simple suggestion "Hey! You know what would really help us Storytellers! An index!"
Failing that, the best thing I could do at the time was paraphrase a little speech from film director Irwin Allen at the beginning of every campaign:
"Guys! I promise you two things. 1) We are going to have tons of fun 2) Somewhere down the line, one of you is going to wind up hating me."
Quote from: Nobilis;268638Whatever happened to the days where the number one job of the GM/DM was to ensure that ALL your players where having a good time...
He's a game master, not a Geisha.
Quote from: DGG;268661And that's just table-top! Don't get me started on the LARPs!
It all depends on the group you have, the ability to hammer out guidelines, and being able to arbitrate. White-Wolf developers were notorious for sneering at their fan base whenever we came to them with problems and ideas. If you think you guys are being mean and nasty to me, you should have seen what Justin Achilli said to me back in the day when I made the simple suggestion "Hey! You know what would really help us Storytellers! An index!"
Failing that, the best thing I could do at the time was paraphrase a little speech from film director Irwin Allen at the beginning of every campaign:
"Guys! I promise you two things. 1) We are going to have tons of fun 2) Somewhere down the line, one of you is going to wind up hating me."
I think the problem with PC infighting isn't that there will be a loser, but that in every group, the winners and losers will be the same every time. It is fun the first time it happens, but its lame afterwards.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268602Now I'm starting to wonder if I should just run AD&D again...:hmm:
This is a debate? Of course you should! :)
Quote from: DGG;268635If I didn't allow her happy fun time, or tried to reason with her or *gasp* let her reap the consequences, then the fault was mine. It's like a student blaming the teacher for her poor grade (despite the fact that she never studied, never took notes and never paid attention in class).
Gosh, you've got a point. I pulled that idea of you trying to "teach her a lesson" out of nowhere. :rolleyes:
Here's the thing. In a classroom, if the teacher give an undeserving student an "A", then there are all sorts of real-life consequences. However, what we're talking about is
just a fucking game. If I have a newbie player, it doesn't hurt the newbie or anyone else at the table if they have an easier time than the veteran rules-expert.
Call me crazy, but I think all players should get happy fun time... let me think... oh, yeah...
all the time. That doesn't mean that everything has to be all rosy for the characters. I've GMed Call of Cthulhu games where all of the PCs came to dire ends of different sorts -- but that was because the players enjoyed it. If they weren't enjoying it, I wouldn't try to make them suffer consequences until they did enjoy it -- I'd change what we were doing.
Quote from: DGG;268635As for the Gangrel getting in her face from get go; I allowed it to emphasize a couple of things A) Players are playing vampires and vampires have a hard time keeping their cool in stressful situations B) Gangrels and Tremeres (played by the two players in question), don't like each other and C) Virtually all first time newbies have to deal with the inner beast their first game.
You're citing a couple points in here, but I don't think they amount to good reasons. "We do this to all the newbies" isn't a good reason for a behavior, it's just an observation. To me, the Gangrel sounded just stupid. Does he just walk up to every vampire he suspects are Tremere just to tell them he hates them? And that wasn't just something that happened somewhere down the line, that was the first thing she role-played at all.
It sounds to me that the player knew this is a newbie PC out-of-character, and based on the out-of-character knowledge decided that as the very first thing he would get in her face. Further, he immediately assumes that his character knows that she was insulting him, when in-character he doesn't understand. Never mind about being polite to a new player, just basic role-playing skills would involve questions like "Where do I see her? What have I heard about her?" - along with asking her "Are you obviously insulting my character, or are you just muttering some phrases?"
Quote from: jhkim;268680Call me crazy, but I think all players should get happy fun time... let me think... oh, yeah... all the time. That doesn't mean that everything has to be all rosy for the characters. I've GMed Call of Cthulhu games where all of the PCs came to dire ends of different sorts -- but that was because the players enjoyed it. If they weren't enjoying it, I wouldn't try to make them suffer consequences until they did enjoy it -- I'd change what we were doing.
Call of Cthulhu is a good game. I only played it a couple of times but I understand that there is a huge danger of dying or going bat-shit crazy insane as a result. However I think there is a difference here between your version of "happy fun time" and what Michelle considered "happy fun time". I'll site a section the CoM to help explain what I mean. Did you read the part where she killed a detective ally of hers and then two weeks later asked to speak with him? When we all politely reminded Michelle that she killed the guy she went "Oh? I did? Hee hee! Oopsie!" I suppose for some of us this kind of play-style may be considered endearing and "fun". For the rest of us, we just shake our head.
Quote from: jhkim;268680You're citing a couple points in here, but I don't think they amount to good reasons. "We do this to all the newbies" isn't a good reason for a behavior, it's just an observation. To me, the Gangrel sounded just stupid. Does he just walk up to every vampire he suspects are Tremere just to tell them he hates them? And that wasn't just something that happened somewhere down the line, that was the first thing she role-played at all.
The players are playing vampires...not a nursery school kids. Vampires as a general rule, don't usually play nice with one another but may be forced to ally with one another under extenuating circumstances. Even in the new system, when vampires meet for the first time, their instinct immediately forces them to treat the other as a "threat". If you think that is bad, try Werewolf. Gangrels are not "stupid" but they are extremely territorial and they are known to hold grudges for centuries. My friend who was playing the Gangrel was also new to role-playing as well, but unlike Michelle, he actually read the books and listened to me.
Quote from: DGG;268702The players are playing vampires...not a nursery school kids. Vampires as a general rule, don't usually play nice with one another but may be forced to ally with one another under extenuating circumstances. Even in the new system, when vampires meet for the first time, their instinct immediately forces them to treat the other as a "threat". If you think that is bad, try Werewolf. Gangrels are not "stupid" but they are extremely territorial and they are known to hold grudges for centuries. My friend who was playing the Gangrel was also new to role-playing as well, but unlike Michelle, he actually read the books and listened to me.
If people use characters that "don't usually play nice with one another", then you'll inevitably have
players who don't play nice with one another. If Vampire encourages "backbiting power politics", that's fine,
if it's only with NPCs. Otherwise, do not allow that crap,
no matter what the book might say.
Quote from: Sacrificial LambNow I'm starting to wonder if I should just run AD&D again...
Quote from: StormBringerThis is a debate? Of course you should!
I probably should...:)
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268710If people use characters that "don't usually play nice with one another", then you'll inevitably have players who don't play nice with one another. If Vampire encourages "backbiting power politics", that's fine, if it's only with NPCs. Otherwise, do not allow that crap, no matter what the book might say.
I have to disagree with the inevitable part. It is entirely possible for mature players to keep the IC politics IC, and still get along just fine out of the game. I have plenty of experiences where this is the case, and games run in this style can be a lot of fun. Let us not forget that there are entire mileus where PvP is standard, such as wargaming and tons of video games. They certainly don't collapse because a few people have hard feelings over losing and throw a tantrum now and then.
Quote from: DGG;268702The players are playing vampires...not a nursery school kids. Vampires as a general rule, don't usually play nice with one another but may be forced to ally with one another under extenuating circumstances. Even in the new system, when vampires meet for the first time, their instinct immediately forces them to treat the other as a "threat".
Exactly!! What he did sounds to me like a nursery school kid who enjoys teasing others, not like a vampire. If he had been treating this unknown vampire as a threat, the last thing that he would do would be to stalk up to her, face her down and then threaten violence for no good reason. He wouldn't be friendly with her, but he wouldn't suddenly threaten her without taking a while to size up not just how tough she is personally, but who her allies are.
Now, it's certainly possible that his character just was the sort who did walk up to any Tremere he meets and get in their face, and threaten them if they say anything he doesn't understand. I'd expect that such a character would have a short lifespan, though.
DGG, I had forgotten about this whole thread. I had some geek rage going that day, and I must admit your articles captivated me and kept me reading.
Reading my posts, I seems my point was "This GM is a dick." That's certainly the most obvious interpretation, but it wasn't entirely what I was getting at at the time.
My point was more along the lines of "Michelle became the player she was BECAUSE the GM was a dick." It's a subtle distinction, and you probably won't find great solace in it, but it is more what I was getting at. It was a topic which was bugging me at the time. I was perceiving a lot of complaints about bad players and I'm of the opinion that many bad players aren't born, they are crafted and forged by bad play experiences. Unfortunately, I found your articles exactly what I needed to illustrate the point I was trying to articulate.
I think I sufficiently explained my point of view of the articles. Now you're here to provide your side of the story so it isn't a one sided affair of my interpretation. At this point I don't really see anything I need to readdress.
Anyway, welcome to the boards. Since I ripped into you so hard you might be happy to know I don't actually spend much time contributing here, so you need not worry much about any other geek rage pieces like the one at the beginning of this thread in response to your posts.
Quote from: jhkim;268742If he had been treating this unknown vampire as a threat, the last thing that he would do would be to stalk up to her, face her down and then threaten violence for no good reason. He wouldn't be friendly with her, but he wouldn't suddenly threaten her without taking a while to size up not just how tough she is personally, but who her allies are.
Not Gangrels. They have been known to walk into confrontations without knowing the 411 on their targets. That's why they never made it high up on the vampire food chain.
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;268710I probably should...:)
I know where you can find some olde school resources...
I thought the GM was a douche when I read the links, and seeing his "responses" just clarifies he's a giant bag of shit. He picked on a newbie, apparently because "OH MY GOD the new girl who has never roleplayed in her life doesn't understand everything yet, and instead of helping her, I'll be a big as piece of shit as I possibly can."
I swear, the faggoty ass White Wolf Games always attract jackasses.
YMMV.
Holy crapola, Batman!
I remember these from the old WW forums years ago when the Draconian Garden Gnome first posted them there. They were very amusing to read then too.
But the high and mighty attitude here with the name calling of DGG? As if everyone here is perfect? I wager you all were dicks at one point in your gaming careers (and IRL). And from all indications, some still are...
Quote from: Hazzurath;268835Holy crapola, Batman!
I remember these from the old WW forums years ago when the Draconian Garden Gnome first posted them there. They were very amusing to read then too.
But the high and mighty attitude here with the name calling of DGG? As if everyone here is perfect? I wager you all were dicks at one point in your gaming careers (and IRL). And from all indications, some still are...
I wasn't. Then again, as shown in another thread, I was to the GM Screen born.
Quote from: Hazzurath;268835But the high and mighty attitude here with the name calling of DGG? As if everyone here is perfect? I wager you all were dicks at one point in your gaming careers (and IRL). And from all indications, some still are...
One doesn't have to be perfect to recognize that someone else is a dick. I have certainly been a dick at times in the past -- and I think that makes it all the more important that dickish behavior should be pointed out rather than tolerated. I have benefited from people giving me better advice. If I behave like a dick, I'd prefer for people to tell me and make me think. (That doesn't mean that I will necessarily agree, but it may cause some self-reflection.)
One of the ways that I do agree with Pundit is that we should deal more firmly with lawncrappers. Too often, I think that the gaming social scene tolerates unacceptable behavior -- unwilling to give bad reviews of a game, or of a given person's campaign. By not calling others on nasty behaviors, we make the RPG hobby as a whole a worse social scene.
Quote from: Hazzurath;268835Holy crapola, Batman!
I remember these from the old WW forums years ago when the Draconian Garden Gnome first posted them there. They were very amusing to read then too.
But the high and mighty attitude here with the name calling of DGG? As if everyone here is perfect? I wager you all were dicks at one point in your gaming careers (and IRL). And from all indications, some still are...
So you're one of the few that remember when the forum was still green? :o)
Glad to see there are some old-timers still around.
Quote from: Gabriel2;268751DGG, I had forgotten about this whole thread. I had some geek rage going that day, and I must admit your articles captivated me and kept me reading.
Reading my posts, I seems my point was "This GM is a dick." That's certainly the most obvious interpretation, but it wasn't entirely what I was getting at at the time.
My point was more along the lines of "Michelle became the player she was BECAUSE the GM was a dick." It's a subtle distinction, and you probably won't find great solace in it, but it is more what I was getting at. It was a topic which was bugging me at the time. I was perceiving a lot of complaints about bad players and I'm of the opinion that many bad players aren't born, they are crafted and forged by bad play experiences. Unfortunately, I found your articles exactly what I needed to illustrate the point I was trying to articulate.
I think I sufficiently explained my point of view of the articles. Now you're here to provide your side of the story so it isn't a one sided affair of my interpretation. At this point I don't really see anything I need to readdress.
Anyway, welcome to the boards. Since I ripped into you so hard you might be happy to know I don't actually spend much time contributing here, so you need not worry much about any other geek rage pieces like the one at the beginning of this thread in response to your posts.
Sorry gabriel I missed your post.
Considering this is the first time I am being heavily criticized ten years after the fact and that I have never heard of "geek rage" (what is that anyway?) I am not worried.
People take from the CoM whatever they want. I can't control that. Yes, we were a dysfunctional group to some degree, and hindsight being 20/20, there are some things I wished I could have done differently...but I wouldn't change any of the things that people here accuse me of being a dick for.
I stand firm by my decisions.
Your point though, is not withought merit. Sometimes it takes a good GM to create good players and sometimes all it takes is one bad GM for people to scoff at the game (or the hobby) entirely.
Quote from: jhkim;268856One doesn't have to be perfect to recognize that someone else is a dick. I have certainly been a dick at times in the past -- and I think that makes it all the more important that dickish behavior should be pointed out rather than tolerated. I have benefited from people giving me better advice. If I behave like a dick, I'd prefer for people to tell me and make me think. (That doesn't mean that I will necessarily agree, but it may cause some self-reflection.)
Precisely.
I learned D&D with a group of players who murdered newbie characters at every opportunity. I was their whipping boy. Of my two earliest characters, one was crushed by a fellow PC's 100 foot tall adamantite golem "familiar" and the other was taken out behind a tavern, beaten to near death, and then the other players described in great detail how they mutilated his genitalia.
What I took from this is that D&D was about fucking the other players over. My next characters were geared towards killing other members of the party. I didn't plan to go to the dungeon and operate as a team. I concocted plans like murdering the party mage, stealing his spellbook, and then selling it. That was how I had learned the game was played.
It wasn't until I was playing a game with my best friend and his brother I realized what I was doing. I had made a Chaotic Evil Fighter (because Good alignment just meant you were stupid meat to be murdered by the other party members). I was trying to kill the other fighter in the party to steal his sword, which was better than mine. I kept on missing. Finally, after I had been at this for a prolonged period of time, my best friend's brother asked, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"
That began snapping gaming into focus for me. I realized that I was becoming the same kind of player those earlier people were. Everything got better from there on out.
Quote from: jhkim;268856One of the ways that I do agree with Pundit is that we should deal more firmly with lawncrappers. Too often, I think that the gaming social scene tolerates unacceptable behavior -- unwilling to give bad reviews of a game, or of a given person's campaign. By not calling others on nasty behaviors, we make the RPG hobby as a whole a worse social scene.
I've just recently been on one of my Palladium tirades and this is one of the key factors behind that as well.
Gamers as a whole are so ready to forgive any flaw in a product. "Just house rule it" becomes a deflection for all criticism. That's how it relates to the topics I'm thinking about right now, anyway.
Quote from: DGG;268891Sorry gabriel I missed your post.
Considering this is the first time I am being heavily criticized ten years after the fact and that I have never heard of "geek rage" (what is that anyway?) I am not worried.
People take from the CoM whatever they want. I can't control that. Yes, we were a dysfunctional group to some degree, and hindsight being 20/20, there are some things I wished I could have done differently...but I wouldn't change any of the things that people here accuse me of being a dick for.
I stand firm by my decisions.
Your point though, is not withought merit. Sometimes it takes a good GM to create good players and sometimes all it takes is one bad GM for people to scoff at the game (or the hobby) entirely.
I'm a big proponent of agreeing to disagree. Since you seem to be the same way, then I got no beef with you.
Yeah, I think you did some stupid things as a GM. I've walked out of games with GMs doing that kind of stuff. I've done stupid shit too.
Recently, I was GMing my Robotech derived game. My player had his character's arm cut off. He flew into a rage. He wanted to know what the fuck I was picking on him for.
It turns out, I had a disturbing history of severing his character's arms. It wasn't anything I had thought about. This is in a game where a cloned replacement is damn near an outpatient surgery. However, the player certainly didn't see it that way. I was constantly hacking off their arm. That's a pretty powerful metaphor. Seriously, whenever I see Luke, Anakin, or that chick in Kill Bill lose their arms, I wince. I realize they're totally fucked and at the mercy of whoever they're in opposition to, much more so than a simple gunshot to the gut or anything equally as lethal would be. I was regularly doing something extremely heinous to his character, and he was sick of it.
There's a saying, Worf and Klingons in general are the biggest pussies in the universe. Why's that? Because every time the authors need to show something is bad ass, they have them kick the Klingons around. What really comes across is that the Klingons and Worf get their ass handed to them by every guest villain on Star Trek. My player was feeling like Worf, only get got to lose his arm every time something showed up. I promised to try to mend my ways and I try to stay attentive of such things now.
Another thing I did which has earned me the eternal emnity of a player was have his character's girlfriend turn lesbian. The NPC in question had a long history of deep friendship with another female NPC. We all joked they were lesbians. I have a fairly teenage mindset. So, I had the two NPCs be caught in hallway in a romantic embrace. I was just thinking of a funny little scene. A bit of cheesecake perhaps. It would be done, everyone would giggle, say "I always knew" and that would be that.
However, the player threw a fit. What didn't occur to me was that he didn't see it as a little joke with some RPG cheesecake. He saw it as a direct offront to his characters' and his own masculinity. He seriously took it as me impunging his manhood and ability to satisfy a woman. The other players making light of the situation certainly didn't help. The player sadly holds a grudge against me to this day. If I had it to do over, if I had known it meant that much to him, I certainly would have done things differently.
Anyway, that's all.
*deleted*
Oops, there's three pages to this thread, and this post is now totally off topic!
Some questions for DGG:
Has Michelle ever read your chronicles?
If you and your group did not enjoy playing with Michelle, why did you continue to do so?
Is Michelle still hot?
Quote from: Hazzurath;268835Holy crapola, Batman!
I remember these from the old WW forums years ago when the Draconian Garden Gnome first posted them there. They were very amusing to read then too.
But the high and mighty attitude here with the name calling of DGG? As if everyone here is perfect? I wager you all were dicks at one point in your gaming careers (and IRL). And from all indications, some still are...
And now we get the friend who just happens to find the thread and shows up to defend him.
Assuming it's not just a sockpuppet anyway.
The patheticness continues unabated.
Reading this trainwreck I'm glad that when it comes to new players (gamers) I don't emphasise rules or setting detail. This stuff, they will discover on their own (or maybe never).
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;268983Reading this trainwreck I'm glad that when it comes to new players (gamers) I don't emphasise rules or setting detail. This stuff, they will discover on their own (or maybe never).
Regards,
David R
I have found the best way is usually by osmosis. A newbie plays enough to learn what the group knows and to the detail that the group cares about. I always make them aware of this when I am walking them through learning, as in telling them they may need to learn more when/if they join a new group. It is just the nature of the game.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWelt;268986I have found the best way is usually by osmosis. A newbie plays enough to learn what the group knows and to the detail that the group cares about. I always make them aware of this when I am walking them through learning, as in telling them they may need to learn more when/if they join a new group. It is just the nature of the game.
Bill
Yeah, this is a good way to do it. I take the easy way out. When a new player joins the group, I normally start a new game esp created for the newbie. So, let's say that he or she likes something in the spy genre, that's what I run. This way everyone is more or less on the same page when it comes to setting detail. As for rules, since I suck at system stuff, sooner rather than later, the newbie knows more than me.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: KrakaJak;268941Some questions for DGG:
Has Michelle ever read your chronicles??
Yes.
Quote from: KrakaJak;268941If you and your group did not enjoy playing with Michelle, why did you continue to do so?
Funny I get asked that a lot. Actually we did enjoy it to some degree. Plus we had many player roster changes over the years. Michelle was a constant. She only missed one or two games total. She loved the game. Michelle was an enigma I simply could not understand. If you like a game, would you learn the game's system? Read the books and such? Ask questions? Share ideas? If your answer is yes, then you are like me and most players I know. Michelle didn't bother to read, or learn the system. Heck, she couldn't even exercise proper bookeeping. I was hoping that one day she would come around but no, Michelle was perfectly content acting like a stereotypical cute blonde airhead walking into a hardware store. She didn't really care so much as to why she was there, so long as she was getting attention.
Quote from: KrakaJak;268941Is Michelle still hot?
Funny. I get asked that a lot too. ;)
Quote from: Gabriel2;268918There's a saying, Worf and Klingons in general are the biggest pussies in the universe. Why's that? Because every time the authors need to show something is bad ass, they have them kick the Klingons around. What really comes across is that the Klingons and Worf get their ass handed to them by every guest villain on Star Trek. My player was feeling like Worf, only get got to lose his arm every time something showed up. I promised to try to mend my ways and I try to stay attentive of such things now.
There's another saying:
"When geeks start referencing Star Trek to make their points, it's time to walk away from the debate".
I mean that in the most light-hearted way I can, because I can spend all day quoting Star Trek and other games I have played/GM'ed to make my point too. So in that vein, yes I will be happy to agree to disagree.
Quote from: StormBringer;268593I'm betting you won't.
More ignoring and fewer responses will see to it...
Seanchai
Quote from: Seanchai;269139More ignoring and fewer responses will see to it...
Seanchai
You are correct, sir.
And his general douchiness continues...
No telling how many new RPers are driven off by assclowns such as him.
Jackass.
*lol* You know for the amount of insults you guys are throwing at me for being so "mean and nasty" to a newbie RPer, some of you sure have no qualms about ripping into a new member to these forum boards.
Hypocritical much? Or are all new members to this site treated this way?
Only the douchebags.
Quote from: J Arcane;269155Only the douchebags.
Sadly, there have been all too many recently.
Quote from: DGG;269151*lol* You know for the amount of insults you guys are throwing at me for being so "mean and nasty" to a newbie RPer, some of you sure have no qualms about ripping into a new member to these forum boards.
Hypocritical much? Or are all new members to this site treated this way?
I have two more posts than you. You are called a douche because you exhibit douche-like behaviour. You bullyed a newbie RPer for no reason other than to fuck with her. At no point did you try to help or explain things, instead you attempted to ruin the game for her out of some passive-aggresive need to feel superior
Quote from: One Horse Town;269157Sadly, there have been all too many recently.
I have been scanning a few threads lately. Is there some concerted effort at 4chan to drive their undesirables over here?
Quote from: whiteyfats;269159I have two more posts than you. You are called a douche because you exhibit douche-like behaviour. You bullyed a newbie RPer for no reason other than to fuck with her. At no point did you try to help or explain things, instead you attempted to ruin the game for her out of some passive-aggresive need to feel superior
Passive-aggressive means that I did not try to address the problems I was having with her directly. I don’t know where you got the notion that I didn’t try to guide her but I did. In fact we all did.
I don’t know where this bent up rage for me is coming from. Either it is something you (and others) have misread, not read at all, or you all have decided to identify me as the icon of all the shitty GMs you have ever encountered. I’ve GMed hundreds of players for this gaming system with more waiting in the wings begging me to run or play in a game. Some of those people happen to be actual White-Wolf writers and dear friends of mine (one sends me candy every year).
You don’t like the CoM, that’s fine but the anger expressed here is grossly misplaced.
Quote from: DGG;269151*lol* You know for the amount of insults you guys are throwing at me for being so "mean and nasty" to a newbie RPer, some of you sure have no qualms about ripping into a new member to these forum boards.
Hypocritical much? Or are all new members to this site treated this way?
I feel no need to insult you but remember, we already know you are an experienced RPer and so they're not being "mean and nasty" to a newbie RPer. It's not the same thing.
Quote from: DGG;269170Passive-aggressive means that I did not try to address the problems I was having with her directly. I don’t know where you got the notion that I didn’t try to guide her but I did. In fact we all did.
I don’t know where this bent up rage for me is coming from. Either it is something you (and others) have misread, not read at all, or you all have decided to identify me as the icon of all the shitty GMs you have ever encountered. I’ve GMed hundreds of players for this gaming system with more waiting in the wings begging me to run or play in a game. Some of those people happen to be actual White-Wolf writers and dear friends of mine (one sends me candy every year).
You don’t like the CoM, that’s fine but the anger expressed here is grossly misplaced.
In all honesty, your "Chronicles" do not give any impression that you were anything but passive-aggressive. All these people have to go on is the Chronicles and they don't paint a very flattering picture of your group at that time.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;269181I feel no need to insult you but remember, we already know you are an experienced RPer and so they're not being "mean and nasty" to a newbie RPer. It's not the same thing.
Right. So the message here then is to cuddle the newbie and give them warm fuzzy feelings all the time, even when they make no effort to listen to the GM, or read his guidelines and run rough shod all over your game but it is perfectly okay to yell, scream and insult the veteran RPer. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;269181In all honesty, your "Chronicles" do not give any impression that you were anything but passive-aggressive. All these people have to go on is the Chronicles and they don't paint a very flattering picture of your group at that time.
Right again. Unless, you all actually read it with the disclaimers I put in, have some experience storytelling the game in question and oh, what is the other thing?...oh yeah....HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR!....Yeah it is unlikely that anyone who reads it will find it funny. I should have known that ten years ago when I initially wrote it that there is a slight possibility that another audience will find it.
I'll make sure I do an extensive target audience analysis before writing on the net in the future.
Quote from: DGG;269190I'll make sure I do an extensive target audience analysis before writing on the net in the future.
Or just not be a giant douchebag, powertripping over a newb, then expressing
faux confusion when I, and various others, have called you on your douchebaggery. Grow the fuck up and stop running off new RPers.
Jackass.
Quote from: whiteyfats;269195Or just not be a giant douchebag, powertripping over a newb, then expressing faux confusion when I, and various others, have called you on your douchebaggery.
These "various others" you speak of are nothing but angry white-noise. My friends did warn me that this site has no shortage of it. I am beginning to see now that they weren't exaggerating. The signal-to-noise ratio is very low.
Quote from: whiteyfats;269195Grow the fuck up and stop running off new RPers.
Never have. Never will. I've been GM'ing and demo-ing games for newbies for years now. I even have an RP to run tonight. Scary huh?
Quote from: DGG;269199These "various others" you speak of are nothing but angry white-noise. My friends did warn me that this site has no shortage of it. I am beginning to see now that they weren't exaggerating. The signal-to-noise ratio is very low.
Never have. Never will.
Are you honestly saying you have no idea why any one of the various people are saying you are in the wrong?
Really?
As far as never have goes, your own words damn you. You went out of your way to bully a new player who did nothing wrong, other than not grasping the whole concept in 5 minutes, which is apparently what you require. Your whole spiel on the CoM is a thinly veiled tale of your passive-aggressive manner.
So once again, stop being a fucking douchebag, getting your kick by abusing females.
Quote from: DGG;269199These "various others" you speak of are nothing but angry white-noise. My friends did warn me that this site has no shortage of it. I am beginning to see now that they weren't exaggerating. The signal-to-noise ratio is very ......
What??
You didn't know that we were supposedly the Hive of Scum and Villany of the RPG world??
(Or was that Vum and Skillany? - I get so spoonerized at times) - Ed C.
Quote from: whiteyfats;269202Are you honestly saying you have no idea why any one of the various people are saying you are in the wrong? Really?
No, but you are the first person to use the word "douchebaggery" on me.
BTW, I'm stealing it.
Quote from: whiteyfats;269202So once again, stop being a fucking douchebag, getting your kick by abusing females.
Oh now I am abusing females!?!? *LOL*
Oh this is too much! I wonder what other horrible evil being I will be made into if I stick around long enough.
Quote from: DGG;269190Right. So the message here then is to cuddle the newbie and give them warm fuzzy feelings all the time, even when they make no effort to listen to the GM, or read his guidelines and run rough shod all over your game but it is perfectly okay to yell, scream and insult the veteran RPer. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
No but veterans should have thicker skin to withstand the nerdrage that often permeates our hobby. A majority of us are shoot first, ask questions later. Somebody should develope gamer shoes that are made to fit on the foot and in the mouth. *joking*
Quote from: DGG;269190Right again. Unless, you all actually read it with the disclaimers I put in, have some experience storytelling the game in question and oh, what is the other thing?...oh yeah....HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR!....Yeah it is unlikely that anyone who reads it will find it funny. I should have known that ten years ago when I initially wrote it that there is a slight possibility that another audience will find it.
I'll make sure I do an extensive target audience analysis before writing on the net in the future.
Humor shouldn't need disclaimers. Your chronicles are more of a rant, and rants by their very nature are always going to be torn apart on the internet.
Just for your information, OWoD Vampire was the only game I read, ran, or even cared about for about 4-5 years and while I wouldn't call myself a Mascarade scholar, I know well enough about the game in all editions save for the newest one.
However, like I said before, many elements of roleplaying are universal and it doesn't matter which game you're playing, or which edition you're using. The notion that Vampire STs deserve special sanction because "their game" is different is rediculous.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;269210However, like I said before, many elements of roleplaying are universal and it doesn't matter which game you're playing, or which edition you're using. The notion that Vampire STs deserve special sanction because "their game" is different is rediculous.
Many elements are universal but each rloleplaying game is unique. Each game caters to specific player tastes and interests. It is to those specific players and Storytellers (specifically V:tM) that I wrote the Chronicles for; at first because I wanted to get some things of my chest and later, because people wanted to hear more because they found my experiences hilarious.
I have no control of the CoM now. It has been on the net for over ten years and has probably circled the globe ten times over. It will probably still be around long after you and I are gone. To see my writing misquoted and taken completely out of context like this is totally hilarious.
And I ask again...What is "nerdrage" and "geek rage"? Maybe if I understood the psychosis I would understand the abusive nature of these posts (not yours. You have been very civil)
Quote from: DGG;269228I have no control of the CoM now. It has been on the net for over ten years and has probably circled the globe ten times over. It will probably still be around long after you and I are gone. To see my writing misquoted and taken completely out of context like this is totally hilarious.
C'mon, this thread was dead until you decided to play Herbert West. You have said your peace. Move on and contribute to other discussions on this board.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: DGG;269228And I ask again...What is "nerdrage" and "geek rage"? Maybe if I understood the psychosis I would understand the abusive nature of these posts (not yours. You have been very civil)
I'm not sure how they're using it, but it doesn't seem to be either of these definitions. (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerdrage) I suspect it may be more general media rage, where someone or something is demonised in the name of news and gossip (which are essentially the same thing with different distribution), and then when the person shows up and presents their side, you experience cognitive dissonance as you're used to experiencing them through the lens of someone else's interpretation, rather than a human being in their own right, with a life and thoughts of their own and multiple sides to their personality.
Quote from: David R;269238C'mon, this thread was dead until you decided to play Herbert West. You have said your peace. Move on and contribute to other discussions on this board.
Regards,
David R
And where would the fun in that be? :)
This thread is sadder than a sodomized clown.
When I use the term "geek rage" it's meant that I'm getting worked up over something only a geek would get worked up over, effectively nothing.
Geek Rage. It happens on RPG message boards.
Quote from: Gabriel2;269258When I use the term "geek rage" it's meant that I'm getting worked up over something only a geek would get worked up over, effectively nothing.
Geek Rage. It happens on RPG message boards.
^^This.
When I say sodomized clown. I mean a clown that has been sexually assaulted by a human cannonball, a lion, or, possibly, an elephant.
Clown Sodomy. It happens at the circus, and sometimes at birthday parties.
Quote from: Aos;269262When I say sodomized clown. I mean a clown that has been sexually assaulted by a human cannonball, a lion, or, possibly, an elephant.
Clown Sodomy. It happens at the circus, and sometimes at birthday parties.
"I'ma make hate to you!"
-VulgarSuch a fucked up movie.
I'd never heard of that movie until I read that post. I had to google it. Now I'm going to go read Naked Lunch until I feel clean again.
Quote from: Aos;269262Clown Sodomy. It happens at the circus, and sometimes at birthday parties.
I think your message more rightfully deserves it's own Motivational Poster graphic than mine does.
Quote from: Aos;269262When I say sodomized clown. I mean a clown that has been sexually assaulted by a human cannonball, a lion, or, possibly, an elephant.
Clown Sodomy. It happens at the circus, and sometimes at birthday parties.
Once again, AOS delivers the funny.
Nice work.
DGG,
I have been trying to avoid posting here. Only because I didn't want to seem like I was piling on.
The reality is, CoM makes you seem like a new ST who simply doesn't understand one of his players and either doesn't care or can't stretch their horizon to include this new information. Or at least, that's how I see it.
Anyways, only 2 things strike me as cringeworthy:
1) At one point Michelle says she is giving her char Common Sense. Now I am only familiar with the Exalted 1e version (and some non-WW versions), but that is a Trait that usually means the ST/GM is supposed to tell the player they are doing something patently dumb before PCs/NPCs react/dice get rolled. It feels like either Michelle changed her mind (it happens) or this ability was overlooked.
2) There is another kind of player, they are not dumb and they do enjoy RP'ing very much. They are called Casual gamers. Making room for casual gamers is how the video gaming industry has been able to vastly surpass tabletop gaming in terms of success. Here are the signs of a casual gamer:
a) Social issues matter to them, they need time at the session to shoot the breeze with other players, etc.
b) They don't like to learn the system. They will find that level of equilibrium where they know enough to be functional, but not be so knowledgeable as to surpass anyone at the table.
c) There characters start out as vague ideas, but get solidified in play. But even aft4er some character development, their characters are more likely to mimic the real people than artificial persona.
d) sometimes they forget key details of rules, setting or campaigns.
e) They do not do much (if any) game play/prep when they are not at the table (like cribbing someone else's notes instead of making their own gaming materials)
Most casual gamers have a good reason, they have a job that is detail oriented, or learning reminds them of school and school is bad memories for them. Some don't. But the point is, I think we, as a gaming community, need to make room for and embrace casual gamers. It sounds like you sort of did that with Michelle, but only at a high personal price for her (constant criticism/embarrassment at not knowing the rules, etc.). But, I think you could have made a slightly kinder effort.
Anyways, welcome to the boards, I hope the rest of your threads go smoother here.
Quote from: dindenver;269360DGG,
1) At one point Michelle says she is giving her char Common Sense. Now I am only familiar with the Exalted 1e version (and some non-WW versions), but that is a Trait that usually means the ST/GM is supposed to tell the player they are doing something patently dumb before PCs/NPCs react/dice get rolled. It feels like either Michelle changed her mind (it happens) or this ability was overlooked.
It's funny you should bring that up because it brings back a lot of memories. The use of the merit Common Sense became a point of contention between me and Michelle but Michelle wasn't the only one who misread/abused the merits she had. I encountered many players who raped the Merit & Flaw system and I was only too happy to see it flushed with the New World of Darkness Games. Common Sense (according to the 2nd ed Player's Guide) is exactly what it is. Common sense. It gives the players some storytelling cues as to how to best approach an everyday situation. The key word here is "everyday". So when Michelle tried to use the merit in a combat with a vampire who was using powers she had never seen, I ruled that no, this wasn't an "everyday" situation. We're talking about a 1-point merit here. She cried foul so off to the books we went. In order to help mitigate the situation, I went to task to come up with a viable solution as a compromise once we hit the next chapter milestone. The problem there was with the M&F system and not necessarily with Michelle, hence why I decided to leave that little part of our gaming history aside.
Quote from: dindenver;2693602) There is another kind of player, they are not dumb and they do enjoy RP'ing very much. They are called Casual gamers. Making room for casual gamers is how the video gaming industry has been able to vastly surpass tabletop gaming in terms of success.
An interesting theory but one I can safely squash based on two things: 1) Michelle was never into video games. If she was indeed a casual gamer, video games would at least provide some attraction to her and they didn't 2) A casual gamer by your definition just wants to play. Well later on Michelle somehow got roped into being an assistant ST to some on-line game and even organizing a LARP.
No, Michelle was more of a Mary-Sue player with a penchant for attention whoring and twinkish behavior.
Quote from: dindenver;269360Most casual gamers have a good reason, they have a job that is detail oriented, or learning reminds them of school and school is bad memories for them. Some don't. But the point is, I think we, as a gaming community, need to make room for and embrace casual gamers. It sounds like you sort of did that with Michelle, but only at a high personal price for her (constant criticism/embarrassment at not knowing the rules, etc.). But, I think you could have made a slightly kinder effort.
Oh yes. I *should* have been kinder. Like when she announced "I am leaving the game". I replied "oh? Alright then.". That was truly an asshole move on my part. Later on in private when I asked her why she was leaving she said "Well I really didn't WANT to leave but since you made no effort to chase me and just immediately accepted my resignation without asking, you are really just kicking me out!" So yeah. I should have been kinder, I should have also been a mind reader and know that Michelle never states what she wants, she only alludes to it and it is solely my fault that we were having problems. I look back upon those days and I smile because while I was indeed frustrated at the situation, my experiences have made me and plenty others laugh over and over again. They say sometimes laughter is born out of frustration.
Not that I don't appreciate your armchair coaching. You have provided me some healthy morsels of food for thought while I enjoy my morning coffee. As much as I would love to contribute to the other discussions on this board, I am afraid it is back to work for me. Besides, considering the reception and name calling I got here, I highly doubt that any of my future posts will be well received.
Cheers!
--The Draconian Garden Gnome
Quote from: DGG;269416Not that I don't appreciate your armchair coaching. You have provided me some healthy morsels of food for thought while I enjoy my morning coffee. As much as I would love to contribute to the other discussions on this board, I am afraid it is back to work for me. Besides, considering the reception and name calling I got here, I highly doubt that any of my future posts will be well received.
There's plenty of posters who've never let being held in general disdain hold them back...
Quote from: Warthur;269430There's plenty of posters who've never let being held in general disdain hold them back...
All the more power to them, but I am afraid my days "unmoderated text-duel match smack-down, forum survival of the fittest!" days have long since passed. I write the way I would speak to someone face-to-face even when confronted with such hostility. I would much rather spend my time conversing with those who share my sense of net civility and passion of the games I love which this site clearly lacks (with the exception of a select few).
Quote from: DGG;269435All the more power to them, but I am afraid my days "unmoderated text-duel match smack-down, forum survival of the fittest!" days have long since passed. I write the way I would speak to someone face-to-face even when confronted with such hostility. I would much rather spend my time conversing with those who share my sense of net civility and passion of the games I love which this site clearly lacks (with the exception of a select few).
And yet, you are still here. In this thread.
There are other forums on here, you know. I doubt you will necessarily find the consensus you seek here, we are a fairly contentious lot by nature. You can start any number of threads about nWoD, the old WoD, or some other game you profess interest in.
Or, you can continue to defend your ten year old actions to a group that has already expressed their opinion regarding your behaviour.
Nevermind that he utterly missed Dindenver's post, he's just reflexively defending himself at this point... which is pretty much his only purpose here.
As the resident expert judge of posts I rate his style as 'Wanting'. Or 'Chartruese'... if you feel the need for a more abstract answer.
DGG,
Hm, well, I wasn't saying all casual gamers were video game players. I was saying the video game industry is doing a better job of embracing casual video game players. While Tabletop games industry still requires a huge barrier to entry.
We want you to have your own books and dice, commit huge blocks of time and memorize a bunch of rules in order to RP.
In order to play Mario Party (a casual video game I think) you have to have a friend with a Wii and a half hour or so to blow.
Obviously, I can't even imagine how the RPG industry can lower the barrier to entry to that low of a level, but we, as GMs, can do our part by accepting casual gamers into our circle of friends and letting the engage the game at the level they feel comfortable with.
Also, I have a few casual gamers in my group, so this is not just me sniping from the wings, I practice what I preach. It sounds like you have mellowed out over the years, so congrats to you.
I thought I'd made it clear that this thread was now about clown sodomy. Please try to stay on topic.
Do you think it's the way that clowns dress that leads to them being targeted for sexual assault, or maybe the makeup- or is it just the company that they keep?
Discuss.
Quote from: Aos;269517I thought I'd made it clear that this thread was now about clown sodomy. Please try to stay on topic.
Do you think it's the way that clowns dress that leads to them being targeted for sexual assault, or maybe the makeup- or is it just the company that they keep?
Discuss.
It's the shoes. They ain't runnin' nowhere fast in them funny shoes.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;269528It's the shoes. They ain't runnin' nowhere fast in them funny shoes.
And they keep them balanced when they are bent over at the waist.
Don't ask me how I know...
Quote from: Spike;269515As the resident expert judge of posts I rate his style as 'Wanting'. Or 'Chartruese'... if you feel the need for a more abstract answer.
I dunno. It seems "twee", more than anything else. It kind of reminds me of a defiant Sally Field or maybe Struthers....I can't tell.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Idinsinuation;269528It's the shoes. They ain't runnin' nowhere fast in them funny shoes.
Quote from: James J Skach;269531And they keep them balanced when they are bent over at the waist.
Don't ask me how I know...
It is this sort of enlightened thinking that makes this board the shining beacon of intellectual hope that it is. Well done, sirs. Well done indeed. And James I would never inquire into the specific composition of another gentleman's social arrangements. It would be unseemly.
I will say, however, that few acts are as sensual and satisfying as gently palpitating a round red rubber nose.
Quote from: Aos;269517I thought I'd made it clear that this thread was now about clown sodomy. Please try to stay on topic.
Do you think it's the way that clowns dress that leads to them being targeted for sexual assault, or maybe the makeup- or is it just the company that they keep?
Discuss.
The way I see it, if you're cramming yourself into one of those tiny little cars with nineteen other guys, all of whom are wearing makeup and bright flouncy clothes, you're pretty much
demanding to be sodomized.
As always, Smokey Robinson said it best:
Just like Pagliacci did,
I try to keep my surface hid.
Smiling in the crowd, I try,
But in a lonely room, I cry
The tears of a clown.
Quote from: J Arcane;268946And now we get the friend who just happens to find the thread and shows up to defend him.
Assuming it's not just a sockpuppet anyway.
The patheticness continues unabated.
Sorry. Not a friend. Different continent too.
I was just checking over here, saw the thread and since I did read the CoM when they were first posted over on the old WW forums decided to check and found a lot of outrage over some extremely old posts.
But do carry on with your witch hunt. You might actually catch a witch one day.
Quote from: DGG;268890So you're one of the few that remember when the forum was still green? :o)
Glad to see there are some old-timers still around.
Still around. Still hang out over at the WW forums occasionally too. :)
Wow... The things you can discover when you accidently go looking.
I am PC Toreador from the famous oft debated Michelle Chronicles.
Though DGG and I have parted ways as friends IRL, I can say as some one who was there that yes what was written was true, to a point. I would say that Michelle never really came off that "dumb" in game, there were embellishments in DGG`s literary styling. Nor was DGG a real dick when playing, he was genuinely entertaining as ST and we all enjoyed playing with him. I am not a saint myself, I did "tantrum" and both got kicked out of games, as well as leaving on my own accord. The disfunction was somewhat real, we had to, on occasion, take long breaks from gaming to let levelheadedness return.
The only thing, and why I`m writing in a dead thread, is reading something here made me see one of the things that went wrong with our IRL friendship. I too decided to quit playing the Vampires game I was playing with DGG, a completely different group that was formed at my request a few years after the group that Michelle was in. I quit because we had a some what irregular schedule, and even though I kept clearing my social calendar to be able to play, the game was often cancelled at the last minute, making me lose out on other things I could have done. I was tired of it and decided to stop playing. That is in all gods honest truth. I didn't even feel the need to play one last time, it was another player who asked if I would just for the "closure", and another player wanted me to keep my "options" open. DGG it seems thought I was playing the drama card in order for him to "chase" me to stay, as Michelle had done.
It's rather a shame that things went went sour. I also got in trouble from him for buzzing his livejournal accounts, and became persona non grata, precisely becauce he felt my IRL relationship was spilling over into his LJ posts. I became "The one who must not be named." I was threatened by a foreign friend of DGGs as apparently he came to Montreal often and was prepared to come kick my ass.
I thought we were beginning to patch things up at one point, staying away from Vampire and sticking to some card games. Things went from bad to worse, my wife put the final nail in the coffin with a social faux pas, e-mailing some one who she thought was a recent ex girlfriend of DGG's to commiserate (something truly out of character for my wife to do), only it wasn't the ex, but a friend of his, who thusly sent my wife's e-mail to DGG. Didn't go well. While I didn't agree with what my wife did, she's my wife and I stood by her.
Now DGG and I only merely grunt at one another if we happen to be at the home of mutual friends as we do usually at New Years or other social events.
Quite sad really.
As for social RP gaming, well I have to say I love Kobold's ate my Baby (All hail King Torg!).
I love Munchkin, cuz the cutthroat gaming style is on purpose, and I'm usually having fun playing whether I'm winning or not.
I used to be a cannibal, but I never ate clowns, because they always tasted funny...
Wow.
Necromanmcing a thread to go over the drama llamas.
Dude - just play a friendly game of TRAVELLER or GURPS. Things are much easier then.
- Ed C.
Welcome to theRPGsite, docbosh!
Quote from: Age of Fable;250263So I think it was done by the rules as written, but there's a certain air of "gotcha!" about it.
I'm not sure a BP of 3 by itself calls for a Self-Control roll upon finding a torpid vamp. But then I don't have V:tM here with me.
Wow, two posts on the same topic.
:D
Wow. What a find, this thread...
I'm amazed to see that the CoM still garners such discussion after so many years!
I remember Michelle from when DGG posted the CoM in White Wolf's VtM forum and I distinctly remember the fun I had reading those stories.
Yes, mostly at Michelle's expense, I admit. I also remember being part of forumites there that kept pressing Marc to post another episode. And another... etc, etc... I just thought they were too funny. Maybe because I was relatively new to RP'ing myself back and everyone in my group had their share of... 'questionable in-game actions'. Dunno.
Actually, like so many others, I made a copy of the whole thing and was recently triggered to open that file once again and re-read some of it. The trigger was someone sticking his tongue out when rolling some dice. But that's beside the point. Funny how the mind works, eh?
Point is, the CoM happened a long time ago and so I started to wonder: What happened to those involved? It's sort of like stumbling upon the roster for the 1999-2000 Indiana Pacers and starting a search for what
Rick Smits is upto these days. You probably know the feeling.
So I did a search for 'DGG Chronicles of Michelle'. That brought me here and dropped my jaw when I sarted reading... I'm not going to comment to the actual discussions or voice an opion at all (dead horse, necromancing, etc.), but even though all this happened back in 2008/july 2011, I still want to thank DGG and 'PC Toreador/docbosh' for posting here and offering us their '20/20 vision hindsight'.
But Marc, can you please scratch an itch that's been plaguing me for years?
You say Michelle eventually read the CoM. How did she respond to your writings? I think I remember you stating on the WW forum that she was pretty pissed, but I'm not sure. I do remember feeling sorry for her at some point and feeling somewhat uneasy about saving a copy of the CoM. (No not sorry enough to delete it, I know).
She and 'Solanna' are still friends you say, so I suppose that she's not too heart-broken about it? Do you know if she's still RP'ing? And are you still GM'ing?
And have you ever heard from PC Gangrel again?
Cheers,
Ivo
Ivo,
I sent you a PM.
Quote from: DGG;472212Ivo,
I sent you a PM.
As a person who also enjoyed reading the CoM way back when on the WW Forums, I too would like my itch scratched.
Im sure a fair few of us would be interested in what people in the CoM are upto these days so maybe instead of sending im's DGG and anyone else who knows of them could post updates in this thread...i understand if thats not possible though what with the bad time dgg felt he got way back when on this board(which tbh was sorta expected considering the CoM's content paints a pretty bad picture).
Did the clown sodomy thing ever get resolved? or is Aos stil researching that subject? :)
Quote from: Broken-Serenity;472383Im sure a fair few of us would be interested in what people in the CoM are upto these days so maybe instead of sending im's DGG and anyone else who knows of them could post updates in this thread...i understand if thats not possible though what with the bad time dgg felt he got way back when on this board(which tbh was sorta expected considering the CoM's content paints a pretty bad picture).
Well rather than send PM's to everyone who is interested in knowing, why don't I just simply state that I do not speak to any of the players from my former gaming days and therefore cannot speak for them. The game folded over 10 years ago, I moved away, bought a house where my GF and I are raising our family.
Even while I am writing this, my loving GF bought me a cup of coffee and my 2 yr-old son is watching Monster's Inc for 15th time. I continue to work as a tech writer in the rail industry. Business is booming. I recently was responsible for ensuring the company receive an $18M milestone payment and received a letter of comendation from the president of the company. Even more fortunate, my GF just recently gave birth to my daughter. So I now have a full set! Apart from being a father, I am also a step father (My GF has a son from a previous relationship).
As for RPGs I play DnD 4ed regularly with a completely new group who have little to no connection or knowledge of the events of the CoM (although sometimes we would share amusing annecdotes from our former gaming days). We play every Mondays in the basement in my house where I spent a lot of agonizing hours renovating it. I got fully dedicated RPG playing area right next to a fully stocked RPG library, Wi-Fi connection, and a fully functioning wet-bar.
Living the dream!
That's about all I can say for myself.
Awesome. I've come across this thread just today, and read it in its entirety (but not the one linked to in the OP). I was laughing so hard at Aos' "shining beacon of intellectual hope" that I had tears coming down my cheeks; reminded me why he's in many ways my favourite poster around here.
But even that gets beaten by this happy online reunion, topped off by a Disney'esque ending for our main protagonist - got the girl, children there, sealed the multi million deal. If that doesn't beat the Harry Potter movie franchise, I don't know what does.
(http://content9.flixster.com/photo/11/15/85/11158507_gal.jpg)
Yeah but...was Michelle hot?
Quote from: Gabriel2;250205I'm not even sure what diablerizing is, but I'm guessing it means the destruction of the target. Assuming that's right, this is the height of dickish GMing.
It is, since you consume blood and soul of the vampire. You basically suck it dry to increase the power of your own blood. Think of it as the big-bad-evil quickening, vampire-style.
Now, the GM is actually being very dickish indeed, and off the rails rules wise, btw.
Aos's clown raping thing is the stuff of legend!
I miss him. Be back soon, bro!!!
Quote from: DGG;472390Living the dream!
That's about all I can say for myself.
Sounds like a good life. Good for you mate.
Cheers
Ivo
Quote from: DGG;269077If you like a game, would you learn the game's system? Read the books and such? Ask questions? Share ideas? If your answer is yes, then you are like me and most players I know. Michelle didn't bother to read, or learn the system. Heck, she couldn't even exercise proper bookeeping. I was hoping that one day she would come around but no, Michelle was perfectly content acting like a stereotypical cute blonde airhead walking into a hardware store. She didn't really care so much as to why she was there, so long as she was getting attention.
I think you held on longer than you should have. She showed disrespect to your fun by not really trying and shouldn't have been allowed to play, but hell, it's your game.
My friend ran a NWoD game for two years and a player still asked what to roll when shooting something. I suggested saying, "Um, Craft and Animal Ken" and let the dice fall where they may. I've gotten to the point that if I ask you to read a little of a loaned book to understand the rules and/or setting, to do it. If a player doesn't, I won't run the game.
As much as I love the NWoD, it does, for some reason, seem to attract all kinds of morons who think that since it's angsty, awesome power in the "real world", they'll somehow be able to mask their own true insecurities. That's not all, of course, but enough.
Anyway, assuming the posts about it all are true, I again say you got what you "deserved" by allowing her to keep playing and as a mentor should've cut it off earlier. The way it was handled seems..."uncool", but I wasn't there and cognitive dissonance is a bitch.
Anyway, while I wouldn't want to play in your game because I can't stand the OWoD, it seems pretty cut and dry: follow the character guidelines and know the rules and setting. Word.
Actually, given the length of time that DGG's Paris Chronicles ran, with mutliple line-up changes, as old players left and new players came in, there are way better stories both good and bad that came out of those happy days. Ya we bitched and tantrumed (guilty as charged), but we were there for the 3 hours or so of suspension of disbelief, a way to unwind at the end of a week. I don't know if DGG kept his journal and would like to share, but there were some really amusing stories.
The rules weren't so cutthroat, and the storyline was often very convoluted. I think in part because we enjoyed watching how the ST was going to wriggle his way out of the curves we kept throwing him. He was very good and didn't let these thing fluster him or run him off the rails. I think he even started to figure out precisely how we might try and wrote a bunch of scenarios to deal with the repobates.
Suffice to say, regardless of what game you're playing, we all have a personal agenda, all looking to increase our powerbase. It took me quite a while, through quite a few failed attempts to become the prince of Paris, but I eventually did it. I got bloodied along the way, not aways making friends (both PC and NPC). But then again I was a Toreador in Paris, and a Tremere was just the wrong clan to be in charge. I added my own take on some of the rules of the Elysium just to stir things up. I did stay prince until the game fell apart, really don't know if I was any good at it, don't care.
Despite our parting of the ways, I still hold Marc in regard and I didn't reopen this dead thread with intent for people to keep ripping into him. One person asked what was going on now and he responded, he wasn't trying to make it sound like a Disney film.
I can perhaps answer the what happened to everyone a bit better. Keeping in mind we were all university age when we were playing so most of us have gone on to life.
Michelle PC Tremere finished her degree, but didn't go onto work in her field, she works for Con U in an administrative position. Within the last year she has found a likeminded person to cohabitate with. She still keeps in touch with me.
PC Malkav dropped out of existence when his overly controlling GF helped him alienate himself from everyone. They had kids and then separated. Despite still being welcomed in the fold and in contact with people via Facebook, he doesn't associate.
PC Gangrel, who may or may not have been in the CoM, married and had kids, works as an engineer. Does not associate.
PC Ventrue, moved to Ottawa, and back again, got married, I'm unaware if she had kids or not. Doesn't associate.
PC Toreador (that's me) is still kicking around, working, having family. Still generally associates with others on some level.
PC I forget what clan he was, still hosts the occasional poker night, to which both DGG and myself occasionally attend. As I didn't go to the last one, I have no clue if DGG went.
The others, who knows... Long and short, nothing to make you laugh chortle or write home to mom about.
Personally I miss any form of RPGing or card gaming, but just don't have the time for it.
Quote from: docbosh;475990Actually, given the length of time that DGG's Paris Chronicles ran, with mutliple line-up changes, as old players left and new players came in, there are way better stories both good and bad that came out of those happy days. Ya we bitched and tantrumed (guilty as charged), but we were there for the 3 hours or so of suspension of disbelief, a way to unwind at the end of a week. I don't know if DGG kept his journal and would like to share, but there were some really amusing stories.
Any long running game has it's share of stories, so I'm sure the Paris Chronicles has them as well. Unfortunately for your group, the CoM overshadowed them with a pitchdarkness only Lasombra himself could generate. ;-) So yeah, for all those actually involved, the memories of 'back then' are probably a lot kinder for both players and ST. Good that you keep them that way.
Quote from: docbosh;475990Despite our parting of the ways, I still hold Marc in regard and I didn't reopen this dead thread with intent for people to keep ripping into him. One person asked what was going on now and he responded, he wasn't trying to make it sound like a Disney film.
For those who actually understand VtM (and can therefor place DGG's and all your actions in a lot better perspective) I don't think that is an issue. Sure you all made mistakes, but come on everyone does. It's been years ago and I assume you all have grown as persons since then.
My group is about to close a game that ran for about 14 years (TC+Gehenna) and looking back we can still laugh (and grimace) about some of the mistakes we made during those long years. Only difference with your game is that we had no CoM and so, no focus from the outside world.
So in short; I agree: no point in regurgitating the bile.
Quote from: docbosh;475990I can perhaps answer the what happened to everyone a bit better. Keeping in mind we were all university age when we were playing so most of us have gone on to life.
Thanks for sharing! Funny to see that there is so little RP'ing left in that group?
Quote from: docbosh;475990Personally I miss any form of RPGing or card gaming, but just don't have the time for it.
I hear ya. Since the college years (start of my RP'ing), I started working for a consultancy firm that doens't believe in 40 hours per week. That only got worse when I started to work self-employed. And I got married and my wife and I created offspring (1 running around, 1 is due any day now). So, yeah real-life gets in the way. It's a hassle for me to keep fitting the weekly game-night in the schedule and there is absolutely no frickin' way that I can expand on that, no matter how much I'd like to get 'Zombies!!!!' or HeroQuest out from under the thick layer of dust.
But it just doesn't happen. I'm feeling your pain ;-)