Quote from: Seanchai;250896Vampire is too awesome, but it seems like many folks who play, play like asses.

Seanchai

Is it me or does it seem to be the worst game for attracting players who actually treat the other players the way their characters would and call it roleplaying.  Mentally anyway, I've never had Tzimisce player try to fleshcraft me but I have had a Ventrue player in a shop treat me like a peasant.  

I mentioned in casual conversation that I liked to play Nosferatu and I don't know if he tried kicking up a LARP right there but his tone got real condescending and he started interrupting me at every turn.   I'm surprised he didn't expect me to "kiss the ring."

Needless to say I went back to my shopping.

Quote from: StormBringer;250901It's Chaotic Asshole, all the way down.

My most successful Vampire character ever (in terms of how well received he was by the group), was when I decided to make a genuinely good guy who'd gotten vamped, because I got tired of the fact that everyone around me were basically Chaotic Neutral at best, and downright evil more often than not.  

The GMs ended up bringing him back from the dead so many times it became something of a joke.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;250914I'm surprised he didn't expect me to "kiss the ring."

eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww

Geee, nicely done Koltar. Another system war thread is exactly what this forum needed.

...

"It wasn't awkward until you said it was awkward."

Quote from: Saphim;250925Geee, nicely done Koltar. Another system war thread is exactly what this forum needed.

Where's the war?!  I wasn't told about any war!  Love me some war!  Wanna make sex on that war and have little war babies!

Really though despite the criticisms levelled at Vampire I think things have been rather calm.  Popular systems draw in all kinds of players good and bad which inevitably leads to extra criticism for that game.  Mature players of more popular game systems I would hope have thicker skin.

After all, I played WoW quite a bit and was known as a very skilled player to those I played with.  I don't take any slight when people bash the less savory types that play it, after all I'm confident I'm not one of them.

Quote from: Saphim;250925Geee, nicely done Koltar. Another system war thread is exactly what this forum needed.

What the *Bleep* are you talking about?

I was friendly joshing that she might've had more fun with a nice game of GURPS (or D&D, or TRAVELLER)...because thats the system I know best.

I'm didn't even mention World of Darkness or disparage other game systems.

Others had their fun doing that.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Vaecrius;250924eeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwww

Haha, literal ring (jewelry) not figurative ring.  Come on, that's something a Toreador would have expected of me.

Quote from: KoltarWhat the *Bleep* are you talking about?

Don't worry, everyone else realizes this.  

Plus in a way you had a point, perhaps if she were introduced to gaming by a better GM things would have ended differently.  We just don't know.

Quote from: Koltar;250928What the *Bleep* are you talking about?

I was friendly joshing that she might've had more fun with a nice game of GURPS (or D&D, or TRAVELLER)...because thats the system I know best.

I'm didn't even mention World of Darkness or disparage other game systems.

Others had their fun doing that.


- Ed C.

Not saying you are doing the warring, but it started from your post.

Quote from: Koltar;250928What the *Bleep* are you talking about?
 
I was friendly joshing that she might've had more fun with a nice game of GURPS (or D&D, or TRAVELLER)...because thats the system I know best.
 

If you haven't noticed, Koltar suggests gurps for everything.  He's like that old Nutkinland skit with the dear Abby sort who solved everything through gurps.  
 
Besides, attacking the worst stereotypical segment of a player base isn't much of an attack on the game.

Quote from: Idinsinuation;250914Is it me or does it seem to be the worst game for attracting players who actually treat people the way their characters would and call it roleplaying.  Mentally anyway, I've never had Tzimisce player try to fleshcraft me but I have had a Ventrue player in a shop treat me like a peasant.

In our best campaign, one PC worked with an NPC to trap another PC in a block of solidifed air, dump gasoline all over him, and then burned him unalive.

That said, both players talked about it out of character and there were no hard feelings.

(Of course, the second player went on to play an equally clueless and disruptive character, so it didn't really help...)

Seanchai

Hello,

Allow me to introduce myself. I am the author of the Chronicles of Michelle. *BOOO! HISSSS BOOOO!* Reading these comments has provided me with much entertainment and food for thought. I just thought I would throw myself on here in the hopes to clear the air a little or to answer any questions you may have.

Let me start by saying WHY I wrote these things. I am a tech writer by trade. I get paid for writing, but I also love it. It's partially therapeutic for me. Also bear in mind that I wrote the Chronicles over ten years ago in a forum thread titled "Who is the worst player you have ever had?". V:tM (Vampire the Masquerade) has gone through several rule changes and edition changes before being discontinued/reborn as Vampire: The Requiem. The vampire clan that Michelle played, no longer exists because it was considered "broken".

Now...on to the dissection of the OP's critique:

Part 1

Michelle and I met up in a pub and we discussed vampires to great length. She had a great love for the subject matter as did I. She was new to role-playing so I went to task of explaining and detailing everything as best I could. Now, on the part of me being "nitpicky"; at the time I had played the game enough times to know what character concepts work and what doesn't. Those of you familiar with the system will know what I am I am talking about. If you create a vampire game and specifically state that the theme is "Romance and drama" ala Anne Rice and are presented with a character who is akin to a lone-wolf "Rambo", you would be inclined to tell that player to go back to the drawing board. If that makes me nitpicky, so be it.

Part 2

Gabriel2 wrote :>The GM gives the new player a fucking quiz. Not asking what she enjoyed about the game or anything like that. It's a "What did you learn" quiz.<

The OP is referring to the experience points award system which is pretty much universal throughout all of White-Wolf's games. These are not terribly complicated. XP awards are given based on what the PC's accomplished in game. Amusing anecdotes, heroic actions, witty comebacks, etc...These are all noted down by the ST and after the game the ST reveals these notes and probes ALL the players and awards XP based on these findings. Admittedly I don't do this as often anymore. I find that I much prefer giving everyone the same amount of XP with the caveat that should someone have a shining RP moment, they get a little bonus.
 

Gabriel2 wrote: >Then the player tries to be helpful by getting online stuff for the GM. She's obviously new to gaming, but enthusiastic. The GM dislikes the idea of her having a whip.<

On the contrary. I actually loved the idea even if it was a bit counter-thematic to the game setting. Also, using a bullwhip is difficult and her chances of failing to use it was very high. I warned her and even showed her the rules on this but she really REALLY wanted it. Disaster ensued. To this day, the players involved in that scene still talk about it.

 Gabriel2 wrote: >The next bit is a part where the player who mind mojoed Michelle tricks the GM on going on a date with her. Somehow this is an illustration that Michelle is strange and dysfunctional, not that the group plays real mind games with it's members.<

Not one of my shining moments I admit. It was rather awkward for me but hey...Michelle isn't the first lady I was set up to go on a date with (even by accident). There were no mind games being played. It was simply a comedy of errors and miscommunication.

Gabriel2 wrote: >The next part is a classic example of stripping player control of their character. The player obviously fears a trap of some sort, but the GM forces her to do what he wants anyway. The GM also admits he would like to make her lick from the bottom of his shoe every time she does something he doesn't approve of.<

Boy, way to take things out of context! Michelle was having her character do something that is considered by most to be utterly disgusting....even for a vampire. It was akin to someone licking the bottom of my boot, which was the point I was trying to make.

Part 3

Gabriel2 wrote: >This was as far as I read in detail. Apparrently this is 1 and 1/2 years into the game. Michelle exhibits all the signs you'd expect of a player in a group where her character is constantly deprotagonized and she's used as a whipping girl of the rest of the party. The GM talks about "teaching her a lesson" which I imagine was a regular occurrence.<

*lol*. I love how this makes me sound sneaky and underhanded. Yes, I love "teaching lessons" to players but I prefer to call it "narrating the actions and consequences". I write my stories for the players and most, if not all of what inspires me is what the players do in-game. A player is a storyteller's number one resource. Any action they take has a direct consequence to them or the storyline. The consequences may be immediate or they may occur a year down the road. It keeps the games character-driven and I don't know any player who doesn't like it when I incorporate their actions as part of the overall story arch. Now for a World of Darkness game, this may cause to keep the players on their toes. This is supposed to be a horror game after all. Michelle, knew full well that what she was doing might come back to haunt her character but between you and me, I don't think she was thinking that far ahead and was merely acting on what she thought was fun at the moment.  *shrug* She is not the first player I encountered (or the last) to be guilty of this.

Gabriel2 wrote: >The GM invites a new player to the game who makes up a character prettier than Michelle's, and that attractiveness suddenly has impact in the game, unlike Michelle's. Reading between the lines, the other player has a "special" GM given privledged background. New sweetie of the GM?.<

At the time no. This new player did later become my girlfriend and I eventually married her. Unfortunately our marriage wasn't meant to last and we divorced a couple of years ago. That being said however, I have it on good authority that Michelle and my ex-wife are still good friends. My life, is not without a certain sense of irony.

As to the theory that this is some kind of joke; no it wasn't a joke but I did try to present it in a fashion that would at least humour the reader. To that end, I think I have succeeded (maybe not to the readers on this board but like I said, the game and its players have matured greatly from the time it was written).

this should be entertaining...

*lol*

Yup. I'm used to being torn a new one.

Gather your popcorn kids.

Quote from: DGG;268178Hello,

Hello.

Quote from: DGG;268178Also bear in mind that I wrote the Chronicles over ten years ago in a forum thread titled "Who is the worst player you have ever had?".

The act of roleplaying and what every person defines as good or bad playing/GMing is timeless.  10 years and rules changes won't change people's reaction to your tale.  After all, there are plenty of people (on here especially) who still play the older versions of games, including V:TM I would imagine.

I'm curious as to whether you still consider her the worst player.  Personally I'd vote for any number of "experienced" players I've met through the years who seemed to never get any better with experience.  You've either been really lucky with your players through the years, or you perhaps expected entirely too much of a fledgling player.

Quote from: DGG;268178If you create a vampire game and specifically state that the theme is "Romance and drama" ala Anne Rice and are presented with a character who is akin to a lone-wolf "Rambo", you would be inclined to tell that player to go back to the drawing board. If that makes me nitpicky, so be it.

Perhaps being that she was new you should have went with her to the drawing board?  Leaving her to her own devices is just asking for trouble.

Quote from: DGG;268178I find that I much prefer giving everyone the same amount of XP with the caveat that should someone have a shining RP moment, they get a little bonus.

If you do the recap style xp I find it works better at the beginning of a session.  Yes, it's crazy to award XP at the beginning of the next session rather than the end of the previous, but hear me out.

At the end of a TV show you don't see "Previously on..." because it's better reserved for a recap after time between episodes.  It gets the players back into the mindset and also gives you time and reason to mull over the session yourself.

Plus, I prefer that if I end the night on an intense cliffhanger, I toss my books in my bag and let that be the last word.  It's fun to leave them hanging with a "See you next week."  

Quote from: DGG;268178*snip* whip *snip*

Always say yes.  Encourage play, not second guessing.  I have a feeling things would have been different if you would have said, "Yes, you can have a whip."  The first time she used the whip poorly she probably would have said, "This sucks." and tossed her whip away.  Instead, because you tried to talk her out of it, you triggered a defiance in her brain where she refused to let the whip go.  Just say yes.  No need to "teach lessons", the players will create plenty of their own.

Quote from: DGG;268178As to the theory that this is some kind of joke; no it wasn't a joke but I did try to present it in a fashion that would at least humour the reader. To that end, I think I have succeeded (maybe not to the readers on this board but like I said, the game and its players have matured greatly from the time it was written).

Good to know.  Welcome to the boards.