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Can anyone who isn't a forger confirm that this game really does exist in Japan, that it really was a translation effort and not some idiotic "awfully clever" idea by a group of Forgers to fake a "translation" effort?

RPGPundit

If it's not real, it's one of the most elaborate hoaxes in the history of entertainment.

Well, I spoke with Andy K. at Gen Con, and spoke with him about helping to translate Maid as well for a bit about his efforts to translate Terra Bansho Zero as well (and saw the original for that one).

Here's the website for Sunset Games (http://www.sunsetgames.co.jp/) in Japan that publishes Maid.  

Where is this coming from, out of curiosity?  Any particular reasoning?

Comes from his arse.

It seems to be real (http://74.125.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.sunsetgames.co.jp/rpg/rpg_index.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.sunsetgames.co.jp/%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG&usg=ALkJrhgFDuqiLTUYjLIY-G73_luz1aL0dw).

It's real.

It looks kind of wacky. Not my genre, but I love the idea and I am curious as to what kind of thinking goes on behind rpg's in Japan.

Quote from: walkerp;255032It looks kind of wacky. Not my genre, but I love the idea and I am curious as to what kind of thinking goes on behind rpg's in Japan.

The same kind of thinking that goes on behind any undertaking in Japan.

Tentacle sex.

Yeah, I played a game of it at GenCon last year before the translation had been released, so the GM Ewen was using the books in Japanese along with his own translation notes.  I posted my thoughts on it in my GenCon 2007 report:

http://jhkimrpg.livejournal.com/63384.html

It just seemed like the kind of bullshit that the Storygamers would pull off as a hoax.

RPGPundit

RPGPundit: Before asking, think about it for a while... why would forgers attempt to fake transaltion efford, especially when nearly anyone can check if the original japanese version really exist or not. Wouldn't that be quite stupid...?

A bar bet maybe?


 Heck, one Science Fiction writer decades ago supposedly started a religion based on a bar bet.


- Ed C.

It's real, and unsurprisingly, proceeded to be a big hit on 4chan, what with it being based on a porn genre and all.  

Really pretty damn creepy if you ask me.

Quote from: Fritzs;255064RPGPundit: Before asking, think about it for a while... why would forgers attempt to fake transaltion efford, especially when nearly anyone can check if the original japanese version really exist or not. Wouldn't that be quite stupid...?

Oh come on, cut pundit some slack. Just because you are clever enough to type "maid rpg" into google and find the links section (which is in plain sight, imagine that) on the games website doesn't mean he has to be that "clever".

I mean come on, it is clearly a forge/swine/IPR/left/rpg-net/wotc conspiracy. The catholic church is probably in on it, too.

It's not a bad game but I would only play it with the right people (people who aren't sick fucks). The major draw for me is that game filled with random charts and uses them extensively in play.

There's an interesting thread about the game on tbp right now. It's interesting how the defence on questionable content (which seems to be the only selling point with some games from the forge and/or storygames) always seems to be that it's all fiction, therefore, it's all good and not a problem. I hazard that if you really want to play a pre-pubescent girl being violated by a broom-handle (in a light-hearted way, of course), then your problems go far deeper than roleplaying games.

I don't put this game in the same catagory as Poison'd (the most notable example) or other games of similar ilk. The authors seem to have made an effort to keep OTT squicky out and address the obvious problems with the actual play in the book - the fact it's there at all suggests that wierdos will find a home with the game, regardless, and the concern over it from the authors might be slightly revisionist. The main reason i don't put it in the same catagory is that the game doesn't seem to push you towards these outcomes in the way that Poison'd does. When folk who like Poison'd say things like -

"I was amazed by how... brutal the game is. These are not your Disney pirates. Sexual violence is not just allowed in this game, it's an integral part."

"You know how Poison'd often leads to rape within the first half hour? You sit down with a group of perfectly nice people and within half an hour they're rolling for rape. And all this happens in a happy, joyful way. It's very strange." - about a game, you know that it's fucked up and leads you towards those outcomes.

As yet, wierd kinkiness aside, i don't see that funnelling in Maid (although others with more than a passing knowledge of the game may know otherwise).

What i do wish is that folk holding certain design ideas (again, Maid aside) would stop making stuff that is fucked up. Then again, maybe that's the only way they can sell games - riding on the controversy, 'ooh, what's all the fuss about?'

OHT, I think you'd be surprised the depths I've heard hinted at in some of the talk over at /tg/.  It's fans keep it on the down low outside the IRC channels because it only serves to fuel the arguments of the rest of the folks who've argued the point that without the weird hentai pedo fetish vibe the game doesn't really seem to possess a reason to exist.  

My favorite argument though was the guy who turned the whole thing on it's ear and suggested making a "CleaningLadyRPG", taking out the loli hentai fetish inspiration and replacing it with a different stereotype, that of the elderly immigrant housekeeper.  Since you can easily run a game with every bit as much of the humor and bizzarity with that concept as you can with the original, it seemed to pretty effectively give the lie to the attempts at downplaying the real source of interest there.

I think most of it probably doesn't rise above the level of the creepy Sailor Moon DM I ran into at a con who tended to go a little overboard on the fanservice, but it's still creepy as fuck, and I just can't take the game as anything but creepy.

There's some things I just don't want in my imaginary headspace when I'm in a room surrounded by a bunch of sweaty nerds.

Quote from: J Arcane;255091OHT, I think you'd be surprised the depths I've heard hinted at in some of the talk over at /tg/.  It's fans keep it on the down low outside the IRC channels because it only serves to fuel the arguments of the rest of the folks who've argued the point that without the weird hentai pedo fetish vibe the game doesn't really seem to possess a reason to exist.  

My favorite argument though was the guy who turned the whole thing on it's ear and suggested making a "CleaningLadyRPG", taking out the loli hentai fetish inspiration and replacing it with a different stereotype, that of the elderly immigrant housekeeper.  Since you can easily run a game with every bit as much of the humor and bizzarity with that concept as you can with the original, it seemed to pretty effectively give the lie to the attempts at downplaying the real source of interest there.

I think most of it probably doesn't rise above the level of the creepy Sailor Moon DM I ran into at a con who tended to go a little overboard on the fanservice, but it's still creepy as fuck, and I just can't take the game as anything but creepy.

There's some things I just don't want in my imaginary headspace when I'm in a room surrounded by a bunch of sweaty nerds.

Oh, don't get me wrong - i wouldn't go within a million miles of it either, and think that it is pretty creepy myself.

I was just making the distinction between a game that forces you to certain outcomes through its set-up (like Poison'd) and one where the outcome is decided by the players - include the fucked-up pedo overtones, or play a wierd mashup that happens to include maids. The fact that the overtones are there means that they will be picked up on. If the mechanics don't force you to pick them up, then i put it a rung above Baker's efforts on the "WHAT!!" scale. It's a 12 rung ladder though, so second rung ain't that good. ;)

Quote from: J Arcane;255091My favorite argument though was the guy who turned the whole thing on it's ear and suggested making a "CleaningLadyRPG", taking out the loli hentai fetish inspiration and replacing it with a different stereotype, that of the elderly immigrant housekeeper.

You sick grannyfucker!

Interesting... it took about 10 posts before Poison'd got mentioned... so it therefore it must be quite controversial game...

Quote from: droogYou sick grannyfucker!

Thjat's called gerotophilia... Anyway, Maid RPG falls more into hebephilia category, than into pedophilia... pedophilia would be lolicon RPG.

I've lived in Japan for five years. I've never seen a copy or heard it discussed. Then again I don't hang around with perverts, and contrary to popular perceptions, perverts aren't much more than a tiny minority over here.

One of my favourite arguments on the rpg.net thread was the one that roughly went "You only think it's perverted because you don't get Japanese culture."

No: 95% of the Japanese population would call the game perverted.

(I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with perversion, by the way. But let's call a spade a spade.)

There's always the d20 take on the genre :

http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2070

You know, in case one wants to run Eric Van Lustbader inspired campaigns....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;255100There's always the d20 take on the genre :

http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2070

I remember the original arguments and debates about Black Tokyo when it was first released. As I recall, that ended with some of the folks involved taking the game for a test spin on one of the more, eh, adult-oriented PbP boards: couldn't say what happened with that, though.

David R: Comparing Maid RPG to Black Tokyo is like comparing Lovecraft's stories to Hello Cthulhu (http://www.hello-cthulhu.com/?date=2003-11-30)... One can say, that this game is lighter and softer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LighterAndSofter), disneyficated (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Disneyfication) version of those sick tentacle rape RPGs like Black Tokyo...

Quote from: noisms;255098I've lived in Japan for five years. I've never seen a copy or heard it discussed. Then again I don't hang around with perverts, and contrary to popular perceptions, perverts aren't much more than a tiny minority over here.

Do you game with Japanese players, using Japanese games?  Just curious, because I understand that there is quite a separation between expat and Japanese gaming scenes.

Quote from: walkerp;255107Do you game with Japanese players, using Japanese games?  Just curious, because I understand that there is quite a separation between expat and Japanese gaming scenes.

There is a separation yeah - but it's almost entirely due to language (lots of expats here are too lazy to study Japanese, and seem to enjoy being babified by not understanding anything - sorry, I have a real chip on my shoulder about that! ;) ). But there's actually an FLGS just down the road from me and I sometimes chat with the gamers who hang out there, although I haven't played any games with them. They seem broadly representative, and they tend to like the same games as people do in the UK or US - i.e. as a rough estimate 80% of what goes on is D&D, about 10% is GURPS, 5% RuneQuest, 4% WHFRP, and the other 1% is all the other games.

I'd say the natively produced RPGs make up a small minority of that 1%. (The shop in question, a pretty big one, sells lots of translated D&D and GURPS stuff, some English books for the other bigger systems like Mongoose Runequest, Mongoose Traveller and Ars Magica as well as D&D and GURPS, a smatter of Forge-like games like Sorcerer and Burning Wheel, and one solitary Japanese RPG - something called Tokyo NOVA, which looks like an anime-ized version of Cyberpunk 2020. There are more 2nd-hand Basic D&D boxed sets on the shelves than there are copies of Tokyo NOVA. There are some bigger shops in Tokyo which have more than that, though I don't often go to those.)

Quote from: noisms;255098I've lived in Japan for five years. I've never seen a copy or heard it discussed. Then again I don't hang around with perverts, and contrary to popular perceptions, perverts aren't much more than a tiny minority over here.

One of my favourite arguments on the rpg.net thread was the one that roughly went "You only think it's perverted because you don't get Japanese culture."

No: 95% of the Japanese population would call the game perverted.

(I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with perversion, by the way. But let's call a spade a spade.)

If this is indeed the case, is makes the choice to translate this particular game rather telling, does it not? Although i certainly gather that there is worse stuff out there.

Courting controversy for its own sake indicates one of several things; seeking infamy, a cover for a lack of talent, amorality, or cynical marketeering. Often it indicates more than one of those.

I'm not convinced this was translated for the sake of courting controversy alone, but the pattern in other games from associated stables is there.

Quote from: Fritzs;255105David R: Comparing Maid RPG to Black Tokyo is like comparing Lovecraft's stories to Hello Cthulhu (http://www.hello-cthulhu.com/?date=2003-11-30)... One can say, that this game is lighter and softer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LighterAndSofter), disneyficated (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Disneyfication) version of those sick tentacle rape RPGs like Black Tokyo...

I have not read Maid, Fritz. You may be right. I was just going by what has been said about the game here. I mean it's not like Storygames and the Forge crowd are the only gamers who produce games which subject matter some might find unacceptable.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;255112I have not read Maid, Fritz. You may be right. I was just going by what has been said about the game here. I mean it's not like Storygames and the Forge crowd are the only gamers who produce games which subject matter some might find unacceptable.

Regards,
David R

Very true, David. It does seem that the proportions are hugely skewed though.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255113Very true, David. It does seem that the proportions are hugely skewed though.

Yeah. Also I suppose the way how the game's fans talk about these types of games adds fuel to the fire. (Although like I said, I have not read Maid, so no comment about this particular game)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: One Horse Town;255111If this is indeed the case, is makes the choice to translate this particular game rather telling, does it not? Although i certainly gather that there is worse stuff out there.

Courting controversy for its own sake indicates one of several things; seeking infamy, a cover for a lack of talent, amorality, or cynical marketeering. Often it indicates more than one of those.

I'm not convinced this was translated for the sake of courting controversy alone, but the pattern in other games from associated stables is there.

In this case I'm not sure it's about courting controversy. That's a particular bug bear of mine, but I'm willing to give the translators of Maid the benefit of the doubt. I think it's rather the case that they know there is a big market for anything Japanese when it comes to Western anime/manga geeks, and they saw the opportunity to make a few quid on the side. It's cynical, but in a different way.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255113Very true, David. It does seem that the proportions are hugely skewed though.

It seems that some people here are highly skewed about anything that has a whiff of the Forge about it, if you ask me.

Quote from: noisms;255115In this case I'm not sure it's about courting controversy. That's a particular bug bear of mine, but I'm willing to give the translators of Maid the benefit of the doubt.

Same here, for now.

QuoteI think it's rather the case that they know there is a big market for anything Japanese when it comes to Western anime/manga geeks, and they saw the opportunity to make a few quid on the side. It's cynical, but in a different way.

Maybe.

Quote from: droog;255116It seems that some people here are highly skewed about anything that has a whiff of the Forge about it, if you ask me.

You've been here long enough to know this. It was meant to be a place to talk about traditional games. It's odd, granted, that most threads started about these things come from the strongest critics. If they didn't, perhaps that focus would be stronger. :idunno:

Maid looks like a crock of shit to me, but only because ALL anime looks like a crock of shit to me. No, really, Japanese animators have already ruined Saturday morning cartoons, don't let them ruin RPGs.

QuoteIt's odd, granted, that most threads started about these things come from the strongest critics.

It's not odd. Some people like to demonstrate moral outrage.

I currently am living in Japan, and there was a copy of this game sitting on the shelf of the gaming store closest to where I live.  So it does exist.  I can't say how popular it is or anything.  When I last went to the store no one was even remotely interested in the RPG section (besides me).  Everyone was off in the card games section or in the creepy models section.

I have the tiniest of knowledge about Japanese RPGs but I suspect that a lot of them are very similar to RPGs we already have over here and Maid represented something that was truly unique.  Also, it's in a single, small book.  So it may have been more of a question of finding something that would have its own niche rather than courting controversy.

I know that the company is currently working to translate other games and that Maid was more of an initial volley.  So we'll see if the next game is Tentacle: the Raping or something interesting but less controversial.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;255089It's not a bad game but I would only play it with the right people (people who aren't sick fucks). The major draw for me is that game filled with random charts and uses them extensively in play.

Desire to play this game definitionally makes you a sick fuck, so you're outta luck there.  :)

See, another one.

Quote from: droog;255141See, another one.

I think he was being all ironic and stuff.

Besides which, what is your opinion about this sort of stuff? You might not agree with mine, but i've put them out there when these threads have cropped up.

Quote from: walkerp;255138I have the tiniest of knowledge about Japanese RPGs but I suspect that a lot of them are very similar to RPGs we already have over here and Maid represented something that was truly unique.  Also, it's in a single, small book.  So it may have been more of a question of finding something that would have its own niche rather than courting controversy.

Ever heard of Lodoss?

Hm.  Well, I don't own the game and don't have any intention to buy it, but I did play it at GenCon and have perused both the original Japanese and the new English translation.  

It definitely caters to a fetish in a sense, but there's no sex or nudity in the game.  So it doesn't seem very different to me from many other games that are liberally sprinkled with bikini-clad babes and so forth.  For example, the Conan RPG has a topless woman on every other page of the book (as a prominent part part of the border illustration) -- and I'd say caters to a fetish.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255090There's an interesting thread about the game on tbp right now.

I haven't seen the game, but it seems like folks making a mountain out of a molehill.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;255158I haven't seen the game, but it seems like folks making a mountain out of a molehill.

Seanchai

Depends really. The point of an actual play in a rulebook is to demonstrate the rules in action and a typical session isn't it? If the translators wanted to remove what they term as the "creepy-sexy" from the game, they should have been all over that AP like a rash. I'm taking their word for it that it was a mistake, but i'm not totally convinced it can be done, given the genre. What the hell is "funny-sexy" in the context of this game and the protagonists anyway?

Y'all are missing the real point.

The real hoax is the title of the thread. Think about Pundit. Think about the title. Think about Maid. Come on...almost...you're just about there....

i have the pdf(they send out free copies to a buncha people who expressed an interest in the game) and tbh its not that perverted at all.  infact they actually dropped a shitload of perverted and racist stuff from the translation that they have put up as a separate pdf file on the googlegroups page, in that file is stuff that would have proved the perverted opinion and then some(a ton of interestingly named devices that are basically dildo's and a kkk mask are a few of the items dropped from the equipment section for instance) as for the game itself i found it to be pretty easy to read through and the tables are bloody fun to mine for ideas even if u dont play the game.

so as seanchai suggested some people are makin a mountain of a molehill here.

im not a 100% sure they shouldnt have maybe gone for something different first though like lodoss or the shin megami tensei rpg.

Quote from: Fritzs;255064RPGPundit: Before asking, think about it for a while... why would forgers attempt to fake transaltion efford, especially when nearly anyone can check if the original japanese version really exist or not. Wouldn't that be quite stupid...?

There have been several hoaxes in the history of RPGs.  The one I can think of off the top of my head is that "old school" game that was supposedly the reprint of a super obscure 70s RPG, but was in fact an invention of the publisher.

Note, however, that I do NOT believe that it is a hoax now. It clearly does exist, it has been confirmed independently for me.  That said, it just means that the Forgers searched diligently and picked the single most fucked up perverted Japanese RPG and decided to publish that, in order to shout "See?? this is what EVERYONE plays in Japan! Over there they're STORYGAMERS like us, and don't spend their time playing stupid D&D! They play pseudo-"sophisticated" games with perverted morality, like we do!"

Bully for them.

I guess in a way, its still a hoax. Because they're trying to push Maid as a "mainstream" Japanese RPG, when in fact its pretty evidently not. Most Japanese gamers are playing Lodoss-esque campaigns, and not pretending to be sex-slave-maids.

RPGPundit

They definitely should have done something more traditional for pete's sake. Al Shard for starters.

Quote from: Hobo;255139Desire to play this game definitionally makes you a sick fuck, so you're outta luck there.  :)

Please don't group me with the lawncrappers.

Quote from: RPGPundit;255178There have been several hoaxes in the history of RPGs.  The one I can think of off the top of my head is that "old school" game that was supposedly the reprint of a super obscure 70s RPG, but was in fact an invention of the publisher.

That one, Encounter Critical by S. John Ross. wasn't a hoax, Pundit, any more that Professor Tolkien was trying to fool people into thinking he'd actually translated the Red Book of Westmarch. :D

That said, there have been plenty of hoaxes in RPG-land for sure!

-clash

RPGPundit: Once again, you failed to do your research before posting. If the forgers wanted to pick the sickest japanese RPG possible, they would pick Zettai Reido (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Zettai_Reido). And Tenra Basho Zero (http://www.tenra-rpg.com/index.shtml) was allready being translated before they picked Maid RPG.

Quote from: flyingmice;255186That one, Encounter Critical by S. John Ross. wasn't a hoax, Pundit, any more that Professor Tolkien was trying to fool people into thinking he'd actually translated the Red Book of Westmarch. :D

That said, there have been plenty of hoaxes in RPG-land for sure!

-clash

I beg to differ. The game was out for months before Ross admitted that it wasn't real, though certainly anyone who gave it a serious read could have suspected that it was just not quite right as a historical document.  Or maybe not, maybe only someone who is used to looking at historical documents.. I don't know. I remember reading it and thinking "this can't be real"... but I also remember that at the time, it was being touted as real.

RPGPundit

I don't think anyone is suggesting that this game is the most popular RPG in Japan or that it is representative of mainstream Japanese gaming.  I never heard that.  I just heard that it was a Japanese game translated into English, which is true.

You are starting to run out of things to rage at RPGPundit and it is showing here.  This effort is particularly lax and flabby.

Quote from: Fritzs;255192RPGPundit: Once again, you failed to do your research before posting. If the forgers wanted to pick the sickest japanese RPG possible, they would pick Zettai Reido (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Zettai_Reido).

Ah yes, but the "Maid" RPG had the benefit of "my life with master"-esque mechanics and more pretentiousness, it wasn't explicitly just filth.  It was implicit filth with a veneer of sophisticated story-creation, much like so many of the storygamers' favorite games.

RPGPundit

I would expect storygamers who chose to translate an rpg, to translate a storygame.  That's hardly a surprise surely.

The game sounds like nothing I'm interested in playing, the broom example goes way past my personal comfort zone and deeply into creepy ass shit for me, but actually I wouldn't have been interested anyway given the subject matter so it's not like it's a lost sale.

I struggle to achieve outrage though, Walker in post 37 comes close to my view on the matter in general.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255143Besides which, what is your opinion about this sort of stuff?

I think the genre is kind of dumb. It's also a cartoon. You can find fetishism all over American comic books. I think that to be outraged at such a thing is either naive or masking something else, possibly the outragee's own fetishes.

Quote from: droog;255237I think the genre is kind of dumb. It's also a cartoon. You can find fetishism all over American comic books. I think that to be outraged at such a thing is either naive or masking something else, possibly the outragee's own fetishes.

Nice troll!

Quote from: One Horse Town;255238Nice troll!

I don't see it. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you.

Quote from: droog;255239I don't see it. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you.

OK. My apologies. I understand your 'repression' comment.

Personally, as someone who has written some stuff that has been released commercially, i have a hard time understanding how some stuff released as a 'game' can really be enjoyed as such. YMMV and so on.

Quote from: One Horse Town;255243Personally, as someone who has written some stuff that has been released commercially, i have a hard time understanding how some stuff released as a 'game' can really be enjoyed as such. YMMV and so on.

I have a hard time understanding how an adult can read American superhero comic books. Yet seemingly they do.

I think you misunderstand, I have nothing against perversion per se.  Hell, I love perversion in many of its varieties!
Its the pathetic covering-up of them in the veneer of some other activity, and in the process defaming that selfsame activity in its state as a non-perverse hobby, that I take issue to.

When I want porn, I'll get porn. When I play RPGs, I want them to be RPGs, not fucking porn masked as RPGs.
I think you got it backwards there, droogy-boy, its the people who need to hide their perversity under the mask of doing something intellectual that are "repressed".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;255178That said, it just means that the Forgers searched diligently and picked the single most fucked up perverted Japanese RPG and decided to publish that, in order to shout "See?? this is what EVERYONE plays in Japan! Over there they're STORYGAMERS like us, and don't spend their time playing stupid D&D! They play pseudo-"sophisticated" games with perverted morality, like we do!"

Except that no one is saying that.  No one has claimed that Maid is a "mainstream" Japanese TRPG.  It's also not the most perverted Japanese TRPG, as has been pointed out upthread.  You're talking out of your ass in another pathetic attempt to invent a controversy.

You know, I thought the Maid thread on TBP was one of the stupidest threads I've ever read, what with people trying to argue that there's nothing at all dodgy about fetishizing child molestation.  This thread might actually be even more stupid.

KoOS

This is why discussions like these are so boring. The Pundit obviously has not read the game. And going by John Kim's description it's not really about perservison at all. Hell, Black Tokyo sounds like it's loaded with perservisons yet a game like this goes unnoticed....perhaps because it's not loaded with unprovable pseudo intellectuall nonsense (which seems to be the criticism of choice around here) - which makes it acceptable..."your games can have socially unacceptable subject matter as long as it's not from the Forge" or maybe because like most of these types of games, the majority of gamers just aren't interested or maybe just maybe there isn't a dedicated cadre of haters who seek it out as an example of badwrongfun.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;255272This is why discussions like these are so boring. The Pundit obviously has not read the game. And going by John Kim's description it's not really about perservison at all. Hell, Black Tokyo sounds like it's loaded with perservisons yet a game like this goes unnoticed....perhaps because it's not loaded with unprovable pseudo intellectuall nonsense (which seems to be the criticism of choice around here) - which makes it acceptable..."your games can have socially unacceptable subject matter as long as it's not from the Forge" or maybe because like most of these types of games, the majority of gamers just aren't interested or maybe just maybe there isn't a dedicated cadre of haters who seek it out as an example of badwrongfun.

Well, there's no sex in it so I wouldn't call it perverted per se.  However, that doesn't mean one can't be offended by it.  Though I had fun in the GenCon game of it, I was turned off by some of the interior artwork that clearly has a fetish of maids, which plays up subservience as being sexy.  Then again, I'm the sort who is also turned off by a fair amount of other artwork in RPGs, like the interior of Conan or the cover of the 4E Player's Handbook.  I do like  Macho Women With Guns (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/), because there you play women who kick butt - plus it's damn funny.

RPGPundit: maid RPG=/="intelectual"... you apparently failed at reading it. And you apparently started this thread in order to find some shit you can throw at this game (and forgers in general) in your blog. This makes me wonder if you are really doing it under delusion of fighting enemy swine or in order to sell more copies of FtA!...?

Quote from: jhkim;255273Well, there's no sex in it so I wouldn't call it perverted per se.  However, that doesn't mean one can't be offended by it.  Though I had fun in the GenCon game of it, I was turned off by some of the interior artwork that clearly has a fetish of maids, which plays up subservience as being sexy.  

Wait.... you're saying cute girls dressed in maid outfits aren't sexy? Well, different strokes for different strokes I suppose.

I can understand the popularity of 'Maids' as a genre of porn perfectly well. It's a common fantasy. After all it's really no different to people getting turned on by their partner in a nurse's outfit or a police uniform, and the 'French Maid' costume is a pretty popular one in Anne Summer's shops. (That's a British chain of soft-core sex stores aimed at women - not sure what the US equivalent is.)

What I can't really understand is why a bunch of overweight geeks who smell like catpiss would want to get together around a table in a darkened room, and share thoughts on said fantasy in the form of an RPG. Unless they were extremely sexually frustrated, had never had a girlfriend, and had lost all sense of shame and self-respect.

Oh.... Okay, I guess it makes sense when you think about it.

Quote from: Fritzs;255307RPGPundit: maid RPG=/="intelectual"... you apparently failed at reading it. And you apparently started this thread in order to find some shit you can throw at this game (and forgers in general) in your blog. This makes me wonder if you are really doing it under delusion of fighting enemy swine or in order to sell more copies of FtA!...?

well, I hadn't even mentioned FtA! until now, but thank you for the viral marketing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditwell, I hadn't even mentioned FtA! until now, but thank you for the viral marketing.

That's not answer to my question... OK, I could write: "help to sell more copies of games I like" but everyone know what that youˇ've written one particular game and that you apparently like it.

Anyway, one more question for you... have you read Maid RPG or not?

Quote from: noisms;255311What I can't really understand is why a bunch of overweight geeks who smell like catpiss would want to get together around a table in a darkened room, and share thoughts on said fantasy in the form of an RPG. Unless they were extremely sexually frustrated, had never had a girlfriend, and had lost all sense of shame and self-respect.

Speaking as one who has no particular desire to play Maid, Panty Explosion or any other representative of this genre, I think this (along with J Arcane's similar bitch) is just baseless speculation. How do you know who's going to play the game? I've known about one gamer who actually fits that description, and I'm fairly sure he wouldn't be interested in Maid either, being a swordy fantasy guy at heart.

Assuming that Andy K wasn't simply lying, the notorious description of broomplay was actually produced by a chick. A Japanese one.

Quote from: jhkim;255273I do like  Macho Women With Guns (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/), because there you play women who kick butt - plus it's damn funny.

MWwG < Trollbabe

Quote from: RPGPundit;255257I think you misunderstand, I have nothing against perversion per se.  Hell, I love perversion in many of its varieties!
Its the pathetic covering-up of them in the veneer of some other activity, and in the process defaming that selfsame activity in its state as a non-perverse hobby, that I take issue to.

When I want porn, I'll get porn. When I play RPGs, I want them to be RPGs, not fucking porn masked as RPGs.
I think you got it backwards there, droogy-boy, its the people who need to hide their perversity under the mask of doing something intellectual that are "repressed".

RPGPundit

I don't know shit about the Maid RPG, whether it's perverted or not, but Pundit, you got all of that one.* That's a bomb to deep center.

*Baseball reference, for those deprived.

It's a bunch of dog's balls, actually. Poobutt has no particular authority to declare what does or does not 'belong in this hobby', any more than I have (and I've been playing RPGs longer than he has).

Quote from: droog;255337(and I've been playing RPGs longer than he has).

That's a weird appeal to authority.

Old Geezer, is that you?

Quote from: FASERIP;255342That's a weird appeal to authority.

No, my man, it's a denial of Poobutt's (whiny, entitled) claim to authority.

Oh, I see what you mean.

I wasn't commenting about Pundit's claims about the hobby in general, just agreeing with him in this instance about repression.

That's just petitio principii.

One, I have no doubt that the game will be played largely by the people Pundit refers to as "storygamers" and from what I've seen, fatbearded catpissmen are a much smaller subset of that gamer demographic than they are of the demographic that Pundit refers to as "traditional roleplayers."  Certainly, AndyK and Ewen (the translators of Maid) are not fatbeards and do not smell like catpiss... and AndyK has a hot wife, something most of the anti-storygame fatbeards who congregate here could only dream of.  It also includes a decent number of women (and if you think women can't find pervy stuff like Maid appealing, it demonstrates your lamentable lack of familiarity with women).

OTOH, I think the constant effort to deny the prurient aspects of Maid are intellectually dishonest.  Notwithstanding that the rules text doesn't include much if any explicit sexual reference, the game is designed to emulate a fictional genre that is all about sexual titillation centered around girls who are at best on the edge of being legal (and at worst are barely pubescent).  The fact that the girls are cartoon and not real is utterly beside the point.  It's fucking creepy, and I lament seeing it associated with a hobby I enjoy.  Then again, I think it's less harmful to the hobby than the legion of fatbearded catpissmen who perpetuate the Comic Book Guy stereotype that typifies gamers to the world at large, and who are all too strongly represented here and on TBP.

Ultimately lots of people enjoy lots of things I don't, and they're free to enjoy those things and I'm free to hold my dissenting opinions... here, at least.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;255360The fact that the girls are cartoon and not real is utterly beside the point.

My point about that is that if someone wants pictures of young girls in almost any imaginable position, I think we all know how available those are. Stylised drawings of girly underwear are pretty small tuna next to what's out there.

Quote from: droog;255371My point about that is that if someone wants pictures of young girls in almost any imaginable position, I think we all know how available those are. Stylised drawings of girly underwear are pretty small tuna next to what's out there.

Uhhh... yeah.  Obviously.  I don't disagree with you at all.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.  It's not like creepiness is some binary state where the options are "the most fucked up thing imaginable" on one side and "totally non-creepy" for everything else.

KoOS

No, quite the reverse. Society is soaked with it.

Quote from: droog;255381No, quite the reverse. Society is soaked with it.

Absolutely.  That fact doesn't lessen my distaste for Maid, or for people who'd argue that there's nothing inherently fucked up about sexualizing a 10 year old girl.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;255384there's nothing inherently fucked up about sexualizing a 10 year old girl.

A girl did it. Maybe she was having a little fantasy about herself.

Quote from: droog;255388A girl did it. Maybe she was having a little fantasy about herself.

That may well be the case.  It's no less fucked up for it.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;255395That may well be the case.  It's no less fucked up for it.

How's that? You never rubbed your penis against anything when you were ten?

Quote from: King of Old School;255360OTOH, I think the constant effort to deny the prurient aspects of Maid are intellectually dishonest.  Notwithstanding that the rules text doesn't include much if any explicit sexual reference, the game is designed to emulate a fictional genre that is all about sexual titillation centered around girls who are at best on the edge of being legal (and at worst are barely pubescent).  The fact that the girls are cartoon and not real is utterly beside the point.  It's fucking creepy, and I lament seeing it associated with a hobby I enjoy.  

KoOS

Well said, and my feelings mirror yours on this subject.

Quote from: droog;255388A girl did it. Maybe she was having a little fantasy about herself.

So what if it was done by a woman?  What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?  Sexualizing a child is inherently wrong whether the adult is male or female.

Quote from: droog;255397How's that? You never rubbed your penis against anything when you were ten?

I didn't write elaborate stories about it as an adult and publish them for the consumption of other adults.

KoOS

EDIT: And I find it hard to believe that you're unaware of the distinction.  This is the kind of intellectual dishonesty I was referring to above.

Quote from: King of Old School;255403I didn't write elaborate stories about it as an adult and publish them for the consumption of other adults.

But in front of good friends, in a roleplaying session, you can see the possibility for some light-hearted girly fun?

I find the genre rather more campy than creepy, basically. If it rates as porn, it's porn that's softer than a prepubescent girl's butt.

Quote from: droog;255405But in front of good friends, in a roleplaying session, you can see the possibility for some light-hearted girly fun?

For other folks?  Absolutely.

And I don't doubt that most people who bother playing it will focus on the camp factor rather than the creep factor, and that the example of play involving the 10-year-old and the broomstick is an extreme case that won't mirror anything most people do with the game.  It's not for me, but I'm sure that lots of people can have non-creepy fun with Maid.

That doesn't change the fact that the story with the 10-year-old and the broomstick was creepy as fuck, that stuff like it in the genre is creepy as fuck, and that trying to deny its creepiness is IMO both intellectually dishonest and itself creepy as fuck.

KoOS

Why is everyone shocked by girl meets broomstick story, while they were playing games about "killing things and taking their stuff" for years... somethings telling me, that violence, power and pillage fantasies are more sick than that sexual fantasies (as long as these fantasies don't include rape&murder)

Quote from: Fritzs;255410Why is everyone shocked by girl meets broomstick story, while they were playing games about "killing things and taking their stuff" for years... somethings telling me, that violence, power and pillage fantasies are more sick than that sexual fantasies (as long as these fantasies don't include rape&murder)

Oh I don't know, perhaps because there's nothing morally wrong with killing evil monsters but there is something wrong with the forced sexualization of a child?  Could that perhaps be it?

KoOS

Quote from: Fritzs;255410Why is everyone shocked by girl meets broomstick story, while they were playing games about "killing things and taking their stuff" for years... somethings telling me, that violence, power and pillage fantasies are more sick than that sexual fantasies (as long as these fantasies don't include rape&murder)

Americans.  It's the Puritan roots.  They still are a pretty strong part of the culture.

Quote from: noisms;255311What I can't really understand is why a bunch of overweight geeks who smell like catpiss would want to get together around a table in a darkened room, and share thoughts on said fantasy in the form of an RPG. Unless they were extremely sexually frustrated, had never had a girlfriend, and had lost all sense of shame and self-respect.

I don't really think a game like this is almost ever actually PLAYED.  Its written and purchased only to be wanked to, both intellectually, and perhaps literally.

RPGPundit

Quote from: King of Old Schoolthere's nothing morally wrong with killing evil monsters

...calling them "evil monsters" to justify the slaughter and pillage makes is even more fucked up.

Quote from: Fritzs;255410Why is everyone shocked by girl meets broomstick story, while they were playing games about "killing things and taking their stuff" for years... somethings telling me, that violence, power and pillage fantasies are more sick than that sexual fantasies (as long as these fantasies don't include rape&murder)

Then as usual, you'd be wrong.

The truly-perverse stuff notwithstanding, there's nothing wrong with sex, again. I'm pro-porn, pro-kink, there's nothing I like more than giving the Wench a good spanking, etc.

And frankly, I don't give a fuck about whether people are "sexualizing ten year old girls" or not. What I'm very concerned about is people sexualizing Roleplaying Games.

THAT is the issue.

Because if you sexualize Roleplaying Games, before you know it, we'll be the new Furry Fandom. That's what sexualizing a non-sexual hobby will lead to.

So its not that violence is cooler than sex, or killing an orc is more or less sick than doing things to a girl with a broomstick, its that one is an inherent part of the hobby, and the other is NOT. And that introducing the other into the hobby will lead to anyone who has any kind of normal psychological makeup abandoning the hobby, and the hobby being filled with a bunch of sociopaths, mental retards and aspergers cases who are incapable of even basic hygiene, survival-level societal functioning, or in many cases even bowel control, and who will infest this hobby like a plague of locusts looking to turn the hobby into a past-time that has nothing to do with playing the game for the love of the game, and everything to do with satisfying their pathetic masturbatory wank-fantasies and imagining that by putting a few hundred unacceptable social-retards together it somehow makes them acceptable (note: it does not. Put 2000 furries together in a convention and you do not have a group of well-rounded human beings all of a sudden who are capable of social events, you just have a pathetic display of 2000 social retards engaging in their social retardation... and possibly a really good target area for dropping some kind of nuclear device).

Your argument, thus, is about as stupid as saying that the reason people are ok with body checks in hockey but wouldn't want hockey players to start masturbating on the middle of the rink during the game is just because people are more tolerant to "Hockey violence" than they are to "Hockey sex".

Do you understand now, dumbfuck?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Fritzs;255428...calling them "evil monsters" to justify the slaughter and pillage makes is even more fucked up.

Uhhh, no.  They're evil monsters because that's what they are.  They're evil by definition.  They serve evil gods, they perform evil acts.

The problem here is that you're trying to compare something-that-is with something-that-could-be.  Would it be fucked up if orcs and mind flayers were being used as analogies for, say, Arabs or left-handed redheads?  Sure.  But orcs aren't Arabs, they're orcs.  Orcs are evil because that's what orcs are.  The minute you change them into something else to justify the criticism, the argument no longer holds water.

The child being sexualized in Maid and likewise in the genre it emulates are just that -- a child being sexualized.  Now, if you want to argue that there's nothing wrong with sexualizing children, then do us the favour of being honest enough to say so openly.  But this strawman you're constructing isn't doing you any favours; it just makes you look like a dishonest douchebag instead of an honest douchebag.

KoOS

Quote from: RPGPunditSo its not that violence is cooler than sex, or killing an orc is more or less sick than doing things to a girl with a broomstick, its that one is an inherent part of the hobby, and the other is NOT. And that introducing the other into the hobby will lead to anyone who has any kind of normal psychological makeup abandoning the hobby, and the hobby being filled with a bunch of sociopaths, mental retards and aspergers cases who are incapable of even basic hygiene, survival-level societal functioning, or in many cases even bowel control, and who will infest this hobby like a plague of locusts looking to turn the hobby into a past-time that has nothing to do with playing the game for the love of the game, and everything to do with satisfying their pathetic masturbatory wank-fantasies and imagining that by putting a few hundred unacceptable social-retards together it somehow makes them acceptable (note: it does not. Put 2000 furries together in a convention and you do not have a group of well-rounded human beings all of a sudden who are capable of social events, you just have a pathetic display of 2000 social retards engaging in their social retardation... and possibly a really good target area for dropping some kind of nuclear device).

Of course, this argument could just as fairly be levelled at the Brian Gleichmans and Werekoalas of the hobby... and yet, one group is welcomed and celebrated here and the other is preemptorily attacked.  No argument here, I just find that interesting.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;255441Of course, this argument could just as fairly be levelled at the Brian Gleichmans and Werekoalas of the hobby... and yet, one group is welcomed and celebrated here and the other is preemptorily attacked.  No argument here, I just find that interesting.

KoOS

I'm probably going to regret this, but please explain what exactly Gleichman or Werekoala are trying to introduce to RPGs that isn't already in RPGs?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditBecause if you sexualize Roleplaying Games, before you know it, we'll be the new Furry Fandom. That's what sexualizing a non-sexual hobby will lead to.

Ahem, did non-sexual furry fandom ever existed...? i don't think, that people who enjoy Ninja Turtles or Usagi Yojimbo are the same as people who enjoy the furry porn even trought they probably used to have the same name, but anyway what is rose would still be rose, even if it would be called shit. And (suprise) every geeky hobby is sexualised to some degree. Even Warhammer 40k and D&D, just go and check 4chan.

If you want your hobby to be never sexualised, stard collecting stones, not only you will find some great stuff in south america relatively easy, but it's allso pretty damn hard to fap to naughty crystals.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolUhhh, no. They're evil monsters because that's what they are. They're evil by definition. They serve evil gods, they perform evil acts.

...and that managed to make it even another bit worse. These creatures can never, under any circumstances be good, or at least "neutral", so it's perfectly OK to slaghter them for their gold. No sympathy for them, no chance for redemtion, nothing...

The maids here in town all appear to be mostly younger black women who spend as much time standing out in your yard on smoke breaks as they do cleaning your house.  Will this game let me simulate that?  ;)

jgants: No, I don't thing so... use different game about girls and cigarettes.

Quote from: RPGPundit;255459I'm probably going to regret this, but please explain what exactly Gleichman or Werekoala are trying to introduce to RPGs that isn't already in RPGs?

So you're saying that the problem with hentai fans isn't that they're "a bunch of sociopaths, mental retards and aspergers cases who are incapable of even basic hygiene, survival-level societal functioning, or in many cases even bowel control, and who will infest this hobby like a plague of locusts" but that they're a new pack of social retards who will compete with the social retards that already infest this hobby?  That Gleichman's social retardation and all-around fatbeardry is somehow made acceptable by tradition?  I don't buy it, and I don't believe that anyone who is genuinely concerned about the wider social perception of the hobby would buy it either.

KoOS

Quote from: Fritzs;255460...and that managed to make it even another bit worse. These creatures can never, under any circumstances be good, or at least "neutral", so it's perfectly OK to slaghter them for their gold. No sympathy for them, no chance for redemtion, nothing...

Yeah, because they're not real.  Orcs don't actually exist.  They're invented whole cloth to give heroes an irredeemable villain to destroy.  Jesus, do you really not get that?

KoOS

King of Old School: I have suprise for you... that ten years old girl who did nasty things with broomstick wasn't real. She did not actually ever existed. Wacky and creepy world where ten years old  girls serve sociopathical otakus, while wearing latex maid outfit isn't real aswell... but you still call it sick shit. So, I don't think, that I am the one, who did not get that.

Quote from: Fritzs;255475King of Old School: I have suprise for you... that ten years old girl who did nasty things with broomstick wasn't real.

But 10-year-old girls are real.  Young girls who are molested by perverts are real.  People who get off from the sexualization of children are real.

Orcs are not real.  Not just the orcs in the book, but in the real world there are no orcs.  Think about it.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;255478But 10-year-old girls are real.

Certainly, young girls are real in a way orcs are not, but no one is objecting to the existence of young girls. What's being objected to is the events of the game, and those are no more real than orcs.

Quote from: Engine;255490Certainly, young girls are real in a way orcs are not, but no one is objecting to the existence of young girls. What's being objected to is the events of the game, and those are no more real than orcs.

You're suggesting that young girls are not molested in real life?

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;255492You're suggesting that young girls are not molested in real life?

No, I am not. What I am directly saying is that the events being described in sessions of Maid are not occurring in real life. That they do occur is not in dispute, but what is fantasized in Maid is occurring only within the minds of the participants, and is no more real than that.

Quote from: Engine;255496No, I am not. What I am directly saying is that the events being described in sessions of Maid are not occurring in real life. That they do occur is not in dispute, but what is fantasized in Maid is occurring only within the minds of the participants, and is no more real than that.

Yes, I'm aware of that.  I'm not sure how that's relevant.  Look, I'll spell it out as plainly as I can:

Killing evil monsters is not immoral.  Pretending to kill imaginary evil monsters is not creepy.

Sexualizing children is immoral.  Pretending to sexualize imaginary children is creepy as fuck.

I don't think games like Maid should be banned or censored.  I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with playing Maid, and I do think (unlike Pundit) that people will play the game exactly as the translators suggest it is intended, as humorous and mostly-innocent camp.  I also think that playing games like Maid for the purpose of being titillated by imagery of underage sexualization makes you a fucking creep and someone with whom I would not wish to socialize on any level, and I can think of at least one semi-prominent poster on TBP for whom that description would fit to a fucking "T."

You can disagree with all of this, and that's fine.  This isn't TBP, I'm not obligated by the rules of this forum to pretend that each and every person here is a precious little snowflake whose personal predilections are equally valid as everyone elses and moral judgement is badwrong.  If I think you're a douchebag, I'll call you a douchebag to your face rather than dance around the issue.  You're welcome to think the same of me.  That's one thing that TheRPGSite has over TBP in spades.

KoOS

What's so wrong about Pundit's little anti-immigration rant is that here in Montreal we have an RPG con and we are lucky to get 200 participants.  The Anime con, which features all that Maid stuff and a lot more (including tons of young women in costume which supports those kinds of themes) gets around 3000 people.

So I'm wondering if maybe the fears shouldn't be going in the other direction, that maybe those Anime fans should be freaked out about getting a bunch of roleplayers in their scene.

I can't help but think that the real issue here is the fact that this game is called a RPG and many gamers have some kind of panic reaction in fear that others will associate the game with what they do.

Quote from: walkerp;255503What's so wrong about Pundit's little anti-immigration rant is that here in Montreal we have an RPG con and we are lucky to get 200 participants.  The Anime con, which features all that Maid stuff and a lot more (including tons of young women in costume which supports those kinds of themes) gets around 3000 people.

So I'm wondering if maybe the fears shouldn't be going in the other direction, that maybe those Anime fans should be freaked out about getting a bunch of roleplayers in their scene.

I suggested as much upthread.  The idea that an influx of anime fans will make the RPG hobby more socially unacceptable than it already is, is only convincing if your idea of social acceptability is wildly skewed from the norm.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;255501Yes, I'm aware of that.  I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Because it's all fantasy. Now, you restrict your fantasy to the same rules of right and wrong as real life: you make the monsters evil, so that your killing isn't "wrong." This is a common technique, and one embraced by a large portion of the roleplaying public. Some roleplayers take it a little further, recognizing that it's fantasy and probably not hurtful to, say, play an evil character who kills heroes. Some other people take it even further, and play downright malicious and creepy people who rape, pillage, and murder their way through the game setting.

I'm not prepared to object to any of that. It's your fantasy, and I refuse to judge people on the basis of what they like to pretend. We all have aspects of our fantasy lives which someone would find "creepy," and as long as your fantasy doesn't creep into my reality, I'm really not going to be upset by it.

Why doesn't it upset me? Maybe I'm nonjudgmental and tolerant. Or maybe I'm just creepy, and so other creepy people being creepy doesn't bother me. I actually think probably both things are true, and that one leads to the other [the latter to the former]. Perhaps that speaks ill of me in your mind, my tolerance to people who have deviant fantasies; that doesn't really bother me, either. My tolerance includes even the intolerant; I'm that fucked up.

Hey, no arguments here.  My bar for tolerance is set pretty high, but I'll admit that I do have one.  You don't, fair enough.  We can agree to disagree, as long as we're being honest.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old School;255507I suggested as much upthread.  The idea that an influx of anime fans will make the RPG hobby more socially unacceptable than it already is, is only convincing if your idea of social acceptability is wildly skewed from the norm.

KoOS

Good thing that no one was ever, ever suggesting that.  There's a big difference between the Robotech/Macross, BeSM, Pokemon, Sailor Moon RPGs, etc. and something like this game or the one about tentacle-porn.

I would like to think that most tentacle-rape or underage-maid-rape obsessed otakus are as scorned by the rest of the anime fans as they would be by the general public; or as we normal gamers are by things like the pirate-rape RPG the Forgers have designed.  No doubt the anime fans are in their own war for the heart of their hobby.  I have no interest in that war spilling over here, we already have our own to fight.

RPGPundit

Quote from: King of Old School;255441Of course, this argument could just as fairly be levelled at the Brian Gleichmans and Werekoalas of the hobby... and yet, one group is welcomed and celebrated here and the other is preemptorily attacked.  No argument here, I just find that interesting.

KoOS

And this right here is why I fucking hate bringing politics into a fucking gaming forum.

Quote from: jgants;255462The maids here in town all appear to be mostly younger black women who spend as much time standing out in your yard on smoke breaks as they do cleaning your house.  Will this game let me simulate that?  ;)

Wow... is this a back-handed attempt to propagate the stereotype that blacks are lazy?

Quote from: RPGPundit;255431What I'm very concerned about is people sexualizing Roleplaying Games.

THAT is the issue.

Because if you sexualize Roleplaying Games, before you know it, we'll be the new Furry Fandom. That's what sexualizing a non-sexual hobby will lead to.

Far far too late for that. There's lots of D&D & Warhammer (40K) pr0n out there and has been for decades. As for furrys? Dragonborn and before than stuff like Tyranids, kobolds, (half-)orcs and (half-)dragons. I really shouldn't need to bring up Traveller.

It's like when Dr. Edwards is sleeping, he turns into Mr. Pundit and goes around ranting and foaming whilst still promoting Forge & Story games. Keep at it!

Oh and you could use Maid RPG to play a Mary Reilly-type game. ;)

Shouldn't this hoax of a thread be in off-topic, anyway?

Quote from: James J Skach;255565Shouldn't this hoax of a thread be in off-topic, anyway?

True, if Maid RPG "isn't a RPG", then yes. ;)

Quote from: King of Old School;255407That doesn't change the fact that the story with the 10-year-old and the broomstick was creepy as fuck, that stuff like it in the genre is creepy as fuck, and that trying to deny its creepiness is IMO both intellectually dishonest and itself creepy as fuck.

Don't dance around, girlfriend--say "droogy, I think you're creepy as fuck."

Quote from: droog;255333Speaking as one who has no particular desire to play Maid, Panty Explosion or any other representative of this genre, I think this (along with J Arcane's similar bitch) is just baseless speculation. How do you know who's going to play the game? I've known about one gamer who actually fits that description, and I'm fairly sure he wouldn't be interested in Maid either, being a swordy fantasy guy at heart.

Assuming that Andy K wasn't simply lying, the notorious description of broomplay was actually produced by a chick. A Japanese one.

Wow, "Women are involved in production of media for male titillation" shocker. Next week: Bear shits in woods exclusive.

It's speculation, but not baseless. It's based on having met a heck of a lot of male manga geeks. They generally (not always, before somebody starts to get offended!) fall into two categories - fat catpiss guy, and skinny effete emo guy. Either way, they aren't the type to enjoy successful, or indeed any, relations with women. This leads them ever-deeper into said world of sexual frustration, and ever-further away from self-respect.... until they reach the stage where they think it's acceptable to sit around with a load of other fat catpiss guys/skinny effete emo guys and roleplay out 'broomplay' fantasies on maids.

Like I said, and I absolutely agree with Pundit here, porn is fine. I have nothing against it, and rather a lot for it. Maid outfits are sexy. Kinkiness is great - whatever floats your boat provided it doesn't involve the obvious no-nos. But sharing my own particular pecadillos with a gang of nerds during an RPG session sounds hideously pathetic and awful. I mean, this isn't just talking about sex with the guys (the sort of thing should be done after many, many beers); it's role playing out sexual fantasies. And that's just weird when it's four nerds in one of their mothers' basements.

Keep sex out of the way of my killing things and taking their stuff, thankyouverymuch.

While that is a horrible portrait you paint, noisms, I think it is a reductive view of the game.  From what I've read, the majority of the content and rules is not sexual.  You can just play it for the wacky things that happen.  It's a specialized taste, for sure, but I could see how you could have fun with it without roleplaying out sexual fantasies.

Quote from: noisms;255582This leads them ever-deeper into said world of sexual frustration, and ever-further away from self-respect.... until they reach the stage where they think it's acceptable to sit around with a load of other fat catpiss guys/skinny effete emo guys and roleplay out 'broomplay' fantasies on maids....But sharing my own particular pecadillos with a gang of nerds during an RPG session sounds hideously pathetic and awful. I mean, this isn't just talking about sex with the guys (the sort of thing should be done after many, many beers); it's role playing out sexual fantasies. And that's just weird when it's four nerds in one of their mothers' basements.

Or it could be four cute girls sitting around an apartment. Or four people of either gender camping it up and playing with tropes.

I don't know about you, but I stay away from both fat catpiss guys and skinny emo guys playing out their fantasies of control and domination. Could be that you've got a worse view of 'the hobby' than me because you're less selective.

Quote from: walkerp;255585While that is a horrible portrait you paint, noisms, I think it is a reductive view of the game.  From what I've read, the majority of the content and rules is not sexual.  You can just play it for the wacky things that happen.  It's a specialized taste, for sure, but I could see how you could have fun with it without roleplaying out sexual fantasies.

Okay, I suppose I could see that. Still, I can only imagine it being fun for a one off. Even desexualised, it sounds like a gimmick. Then again a lot of story games are like that - good the first time, but no reason to come back to it.

Quote from: droog;255587Or it could be four cute girls sitting around an apartment. Or four people of either gender camping it up and playing with tropes.

See above. If this is the case (and such players would be a tiny minority, if they exist at all) then it's surely a one-time drunken evening gimmick and not a game you'd come back to.

QuoteI don't know about you, but I stay away from both fat catpiss guys and skinny emo guys playing out their fantasies of control and domination. Could be that you've got a worse view of 'the hobby' than me because you're less selective.

Er... why are you suddenly turning this into jibes about my 'selectivity'? Calm down, for fuck's sake. I was making the same point you are - I try to stay away from fat catpiss guys and skinny effete emo guys, which is why I don't want to play Maid.

Quote from: noisms;255582I mean, this isn't just talking about sex with the guys (the sort of thing should be done after many, many beers); it's role playing out sexual fantasies. And that's just weird when it's four nerds in one of their mothers' basements.

Well, but it isn't role-playing out sexual fantasies.  There's essentially no sex in the book that I saw from browsing and playing it, though apparently there's something in one of the examples.  The themes are suggestive of sex, but less so than, say, the James Bond 007 RPG.  There was nothing sexual in the session when I played it with the translator as GM.  

It is racy and suggestive -- but in the same sense that having PCs in racy skintight outfits is.  Playing characters who dress up in skimpy spandex is suggestive, but it isn't the same thing as playing out sexual fantasies.  

Quote from: noisms;255582Keep sex out of the way of my killing things and taking their stuff, thankyouverymuch.

No one's forcing you to play Maid, much less play out sex.  That said, I'm generally comfortable playing out romantic or racy stuff in role-playing with players I like -- male or female -- and it is often common in games I play in, depending on the genre.

Quote from: noisms;255600Er... why are you suddenly turning this into jibes about my 'selectivity'? Calm down, for fuck's sake. I was making the same point you are - I try to stay away from fat catpiss guys and skinny effete emo guys, which is why I don't want to play Maid.

I'm just saying that the weirdoes and the game aren't necessarily connected. Already you've been told by KoOS that Andy and his partner aren't exactly social misfits, and that's from a  guy that dislikes the concept.


Personally, I don't see a problem with a game being good only for a one-off or two, especially if it's not particularly dear. Think how many games go completely unplayed anyway, or think how many campaigns start up and immediately crash or tail off.

King of Old School: So, if it was for example 10 years old female demon, it would be acceptable, because demons, like orcs, aren't real?

noisms: Human sexuality is quite complicated thing. It's not like, the hot people are the only ones that should be allowed to do it in any of it's form. So, shut up about emoguys and catpissmen playing out their creepy fantasies... there's nothing wrong with it as long as they aren't doing it in your basement.

Quote from: jhkim;255611Well, but it isn't role-playing out sexual fantasies.  There's essentially no sex in the book that I saw from browsing and playing it, though apparently there's something in one of the examples.  The themes are suggestive of sex, but less so than, say, the James Bond 007 RPG.  There was nothing sexual in the session when I played it with the translator as GM.  

It is racy and suggestive -- but in the same sense that having PCs in racy skintight outfits is.  Playing characters who dress up in skimpy spandex is suggestive, but it isn't the same thing as playing out sexual fantasies.

I frankly find the whole 'racy skintight outfits' thing problematic too, but let's not open that can of worms.

I think comparing Maid to James Bond is a little disingenuous. The French Maid is a well known porn trope not only in Japan but throughout the world. Even if there is no sex directly involved, the undercurrent/frisson is surely constantly there - because otherwise what's entertaining about it? You might as well play Toilet Cleaner RPG or Road Sweepers & Recycling. The innuendo is the only fun or important thing.

James Bond on the other hand is an action hero/spy. There's a lot of sex in James Bond films, but you could take it out without damaging the story line of a rogue secret agent taking on a bald guy with a thing for cats.

QuoteNo one's forcing you to play Maid, much less play out sex.

I didn't say they were.

QuoteThat said, I'm generally comfortable playing out romantic or racy stuff in role-playing with players I like -- male or female -- and it is often common in games I play in, depending on the genre.

Well, no accounting for taste, and all that. ;)

Quote from: droog;255612I'm just saying that the weirdoes and the game aren't necessarily connected. Already you've been told by KoOS that Andy and his partner aren't exactly social misfits, and that's from a guy that dislikes the concept.

Nobody told me that, I don't think. But anyway, "Andy and his partner" are obviously a pair of canny individuals with a good idea for making money. Heck, I'm a professional Japanese-English translator and I wish I'd thought of it; I could have made some nice extra pocket money or bought my wife a better birthday present. ;) The point being: The creators or translators of a game need hardly be representative of the player base.

QuotePersonally, I don't see a problem with a game being good only for a one-off or two, especially if it's not particularly dear. Think how many games go completely unplayed anyway, or think how many campaigns start up and immediately crash or tail off.

I dunno. $26.00 seems like a lot for a one-shot when you could just download, say, Risus for free and pretend to be Maids with that.

Quote from: Fritzs;255615noisms:It's not like, the hot people are the only ones that should be allowed to do it in any of it's form.

Yeah it is. ;)

Listen, I wasn't saying that catpiss guys and effete emo creeps are WRONG to be playing the game. Just that they are clearly the target demographic, I'm not one of them, I find them deeply pathetic, and so I'm not into Maid.

Quote from: noismsI'm not one of them, I find them deeply pathetic, and so I'm not into Maid.

Yeah, thanks for informing us... I find people who write long elaborates about how their hate of catpissmen untermench has no limits deeply pathetic.

Quote from: Fritzs;255620Yeah, thanks for informing us... I find people who write long elaborates about how their hate of catpissmen untermench has no limits deeply pathetic.

EDIT: Not worth it.

Quote from: noismsEDIT: Not worth it.

Really makes me wonder, what wasn't worth it... quite possibly it was telling me, that I am probably deeply offended skinny obese emo catpissmen... or, that skinny obese emo catpissmen need to be told to GTFO in order to become normal human being. And you were right, neither of these were worth it...

Quote from: Fritzs;255623Really makes me wonder, what wasn't worth it... quite possibly it was telling me, that I am probably deeply offended skinny obese emo catpissmen... or, that skinny obese emo catpissmen need to be told to GTFO in order to become normal human being. And you were right, neither of these were worth it...

Since you're wondering, actually it was a snippy comment about people who can't be bothered to read other people's posts properly.

I said nothing about hating catpiss guys or emo kids, much less that my "hate of catpiss untermensch knows no limits". There's a big difference between finding somebody pathetic and hating them, mate, and I just can't be arsed communicating with a person who wants to misrepresent what I say like that.

Quote from: noisms;255616I dunno. $26.00 seems like a lot for a one-shot when you could just download, say, Risus for free and pretend to be Maids with that.

It's about what a hardback novel costs here.

I believe the assortment of random tables is the big drawcard, so....

Quote from: droog;255634It's about what a hardback novel costs here.

I believe the assortment of random tables is the big drawcard, so....

Fair enough. Maybe I'm just a stingy bastard.

noisms: OK, let's have a closer look at what you have written:

Quote from: noismsIt's speculation, but not baseless.

OK, nice, let's move on.

Quote from: noismsIt's based on having met a heck of a lot of male manga geeks. They generally (not always, before somebody starts to get offended!) fall into two categories - fat catpiss guy, and skinny effete emo guy.

My personal experience with male manga geeks is opposite... I hardly ever met any catpissguys and the skinny guys were just, you know, skinny, not effete or emo. So you are IMHO making generalization from few examples you managed to meet.

Quote from: noismsEither way, they aren't the type to enjoy successful, or indeed any, relations with women.

OK, but let's have closer look at assumption you make from this:

Quote from: noismsThis leads them ever-deeper into said world of sexual frustration, and ever-further away from self-respect....

Another example of unnecessary generalization.

Quote from: noismsuntil they reach the stage where they think it's acceptable to sit around with a load of other fat catpiss guys/skinny effete emo guys and roleplay out 'broomplay' fantasies on maids.

Oh great, so instead of seeking profesional help of some psychologist, or building basic hygiene habits, or doing whatever, it would automaticaly end at worst possible outcome... What you just demonstrated is very nice example logical fallancy called slippery slope.

noisms if Maid was about "broomplay fantasies" then yes by all means outrage away, hell I may even join you. However, from what John Kim has posted, about the only thing he finds dodgy about the game and by no means not the only thing one may find dodgy about it, is the art. Let's hold on to a little perspective here. Let's not go of the deep end in terms of the criticisms against the game. Let's keep in mind what KoOS said about intellectual dishonesty.

Regards,
David R

I'd aim for a comedy of manners campaign. Take Jeeves and Wooster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lLeCI1m_9g), mix in the wonderful historical maid anime Emma: A Victorian Romance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-U4pzJi0Xg) for more plot & detail, a dash of Tenchi Muyo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbiaQga9AXc) for gonzo sci-fi comedy, and set it against the backdrop of Imperial Germany in Spaaaaace of Legend of the Galactic Heroes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sken4RHX9FY) (LOGH).

With occasional nods to Upstairs, Downstairs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1JxDYv1TfQ), Touhou fightan gaems (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z60/clan_mum/DDCharOp.jpg), and gaslight mystery / class  bits like Gosford Park (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfokH6v4aOM).

Maid's a 200+ page regular size game, hardly a one off. The game allows for making male characters as well, so butlers, heads of households etc. are also possible. Alien, angel and robot maids are viable character types.

From the actual plays I've seen on 4chan, the game tends towards Paranoia meets Teenagers from Outer Space with costumes, pirates and spaceships. So you have the group of servants (maids & butlers) going off on adventures while scheming against each other and the head of the household. The maid stuff is a wacky troupe to get the game going and anchor the group.

My wife and I went to Japan in April, and she bought a Japanese copy of the game from a Yellow Submarine store in Akihabara.  It's sitting on a shelf in the den.  She played a demo at GenCon '07 and really liked it, so she really wanted to find a copy when we were in Japan.  A friend picked up the translation for her at this year's GenCon but we haven't seen him in a while, so she hasn't gotten it from him yet.

Interestingly, we were in the Yellow Submarine on a Saturday afternoon, and there must have been seven or eight tables of people (all guys) playing RPGs.

Quote from: noisms;255616I frankly find the whole 'racy skintight outfits' thing problematic too, but let's not open that can of worms.

I think comparing Maid to James Bond is a little disingenuous. The French Maid is a well known porn trope not only in Japan but throughout the world. Even if there is no sex directly involved, the undercurrent/frisson is surely constantly there - because otherwise what's entertaining about it? You might as well play Toilet Cleaner RPG or Road Sweepers & Recycling. The innuendo is the only fun or important thing.

James Bond on the other hand is an action hero/spy. There's a lot of sex in James Bond films, but you could take it out without damaging the story line of a rogue secret agent taking on a bald guy with a thing for cats.

I think the sexiness is pretty central to James Bond.  Conversely, you can have lots of wacky servant sitcom plots without the innuendo.  Jeeves & Wooster come to mind for me, since I'm hopefully going to be doing a Jeeves & Wooster larp in a week.  I'm not familiar with the anime genre, but the Maid RPG is filled with wacky stuff like ninjas, alien invasion, and so forth played for comedy.  

As for the spandex can of worms -- I think that's fairly central.  I agree with you that there is some creepiness involved in both comic book and anime fandom.  I'm not particularly taken by the Maid RPG -- I'm just saying that it isn't that different from many other RPGs.  It is not about sex, but it is sold on racy themes -- just like spandex-clad superheroes and some fantasy genres.  That doesn't make all of it acceptable, just recognizes that it is part of a trend rather than a unique outlier.

Quote from: noisms;255617Yeah it is. ;)

Listen, I wasn't saying that catpiss guys and effete emo creeps are WRONG to be playing the game. Just that they are clearly the target demographic,

What information leads you to make this assumption?  I think this game is aimed at hipster gamers who are into trying new stuff and anime fans.

Quote from: Rezendevous;255663My wife and I went to Japan in April, and she bought a Japanese copy of the game from a Yellow Submarine store in Akihabara.  It's sitting on a shelf in the den.  She played a demo at GenCon '07 and really liked it, so she really wanted to find a copy when we were in Japan.  A friend picked up the translation for her at this year's GenCon but we haven't seen him in a while, so she hasn't gotten it from him yet.

Interestingly, we were in the Yellow Submarine on a Saturday afternoon, and there must have been seven or eight tables of people (all guys) playing RPGs.

Huh, the one time I went to Yellow Submarine I didn't see a single rpg, not one.  I still wonder what the hell I did wrong or if there was a room I missed or something.

Maybe it was rpg cleaning day, who knows?

Quote from: Fritzs;255638What you just demonstrated is very nice example logical fallancy called slippery slope.

I know English isn't your first language so it seems below the belt to say this, but I don't think you understood the tone in which I was writing, or the intent. I was talking about a slippery slope - that was the whole point. The road to catpissman-dom/effete emo kind-dom is a slippery slope. Logical fallacy doesn't come into it.

The problem of tone is an irritating one. I had my tongue firmly in my cheek when I was writing that little rant, but that never translates well on the internet.

Quote from: David R;255643noisms if Maid was about "broomplay fantasies" then yes by all means outrage away, hell I may even join you. However, from what John Kim has posted, about the only thing he finds dodgy about the game and by no means not the only thing one may find dodgy about it, is the art. Let's hold on to a little perspective here. Let's not go of the deep end in terms of the criticisms against the game. Let's keep in mind what KoOS said about intellectual dishonesty.

I'm really not outraged or outraging. Honestly. And I would never say people shouldn't play Maid. It's not even about broomplay fantasies - who cares? It's pretty mild as such things go. It's just that the thought of a bunch of creepy nerds slavering over their communal fantasies together... it sends shivers down my spine.

I suppose I just don't get the attraction. Isn't that what all arguments over RPGs come down to in the end?

Quote from: jhkim;255694I think the sexiness is pretty central to James Bond.  Conversely, you can have lots of wacky servant sitcom plots without the innuendo.  Jeeves & Wooster come to mind for me, since I'm hopefully going to be doing a Jeeves & Wooster larp in a week.  I'm not familiar with the anime genre, but the Maid RPG is filled with wacky stuff like ninjas, alien invasion, and so forth played for comedy.  

As for the spandex can of worms -- I think that's fairly central.  I agree with you that there is some creepiness involved in both comic book and anime fandom.  I'm not particularly taken by the Maid RPG -- I'm just saying that it isn't that different from many other RPGs.  It is not about sex, but it is sold on racy themes -- just like spandex-clad superheroes and some fantasy genres.  That doesn't make all of it acceptable, just recognizes that it is part of a trend rather than a unique outlier.

Okay, I can accept that argument.

Quote from: walkerp;255714What information leads you to make this assumption?  I think this game is aimed at hipster gamers who are into trying new stuff and anime fans.

Hipster gamers who are into trying new stuff and anime fans generally come under the category of "effete emo creep" in my experience.

I'm joking, obviously.

Quote from: Balbinus;255746Huh, the one time I went to Yellow Submarine I didn't see a single rpg, not one.  I still wonder what the hell I did wrong or if there was a room I missed or something.

Maybe it was rpg cleaning day, who knows?

There are lots of Yellow Submarines - it's a chain/franchise thing, and not all of them sell RPGs. I think there are at least two in Akihabara, and a couple of others in Shinjuku and Yokohama. There are probably many more. You might just have been unlucky in choosing one of the non-rpg ones.

Quote from: noisms;255749Isn't that what all arguments over RPGs come down to in the end?

Not really only the ones that lack substance. Subject matter is a perfectly legitimate topic of discussion, providing of course we are actually talking about the subject matter of the game in question and not assumptions and a general hate on for the type of game it's perceived to be. I mean the thought of folks playing Exalted send shivers down my spine but you don't see me going on about it.

Regards,
David R

noisms: Slippery slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope) is name of centrain logical fallancy. Yopu demonstrated it by claiming that being catpissman, emo guy will lead to have no success with opposite gender (which is just probyble, but not necessary true), that will leat to deeper sexual frustration (again, this might, or might not happen) and this will ultimately lead into complete lack of self respect and playing out broomstich fantasies with similar freaks, instead of leading into, lets say seeking profesional help, which is IMO far more probable.

Quote from: Fritzs;255781noisms: Slippery slope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope) is name of centrain logical fallancy. Yopu demonstrated it by claiming that being catpissman, emo guy will lead to have no success with opposite gender (which is just probyble, but not necessary true), that will leat to deeper sexual frustration (again, this might, or might not happen) and this will ultimately lead into complete lack of self respect and playing out broomstich fantasies with similar freaks, instead of leading into, lets say seeking profesional help, which is IMO far more probable.

I know what a slippery slope logical fallacy is. This isn't the same thing is that. It really isn't.

The slippery slope from sexually frustrated nerd to deeper sexual frustration and to lack of self-respect is no more a logical fallacy than is the slippery slope from smoking pot to smoking heroin to injecting heroin. Not everybody who smokes pot ends up injecting heroin but the slippery slope from A to B is readily apparent and an observable phenomenon. There is no 'logical fallacy' because we aren't talking about logic or making an argument.

An example of a slippery slope logical fallacy is "First you legalise contraception and then abortion. Pretty soon you'll end up legalising murder!" If you can't see the difference between that and "It's an observable fact that smoking pot can be the start of a slippery slope towards injecting heroin" then there's not much else one can say to you.

moisms: Can you see difference between "can possibly lead to" and "will surely lead to"...?

Quote from: Fritzs;255785moisms: Can you see difference between "can possibly lead to" and "will surely lead to"...?

Apparently you can't. Tell me where I said "will surely lead to" and I'll gladly recant.

Actually, don't bother. You've thoroughly drained my will to live. I'm off to collapse in a heap somewhere while ruminating over the minutes I've wasted on this discussion and how I should have spent them more productively.

Quote from: noisms;255751There are lots of Yellow Submarines - it's a chain/franchise thing, and not all of them sell RPGs. I think there are at least two in Akihabara, and a couple of others in Shinjuku and Yokohama. There are probably many more. You might just have been unlucky in choosing one of the non-rpg ones.

Ah, that makes sense, thanks.

I must have gone to the wrong one, the one I went to had no rpgs and really didn't look like somewhere that would have had space for them after all the anime stuff.  Next time I'm in Japan I may try again.

Or I may not, my wife reads Japanese, I don't so it's not like I can get anything I can understand that I couldn't buy more easily in Britain.

Quote from: Balbinus;255803Next time I'm in Japan I may try again.

Hobby/game stores in Tokyo:
http://www.tgiw.info/etc/link-t.html

Three Yellow Submarines in Akihabara (the rpg one is marked):
http://www.yellowsubmarine.co.jp/shop/shop-059.htm
More west, just outside the upper end of the map, is Role & Roll Station.

Quote from: noisms;255787I'm off to collapse in a heap somewhere while ruminating over the minutes I've wasted on this discussion and how I should have spent them more productively.

Like by discussing proper rpgs.

Quote from: jhkim;255694Conversely, you can have lots of wacky servant sitcom plots without the innuendo.  Jeeves & Wooster come to mind for me, since I'm hopefully going to be doing a Jeeves & Wooster larp in a week.  I'm not familiar with the anime genre, but the Maid RPG is filled with wacky stuff like ninjas, alien invasion, and so forth played for comedy.

Cool on the J&W larp, sounds like a lot of fun.

As for anime featuring servants without innuendo, I recommend the aforementioned (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=255651&postcount=138) manga and anime Emma: A Victorian Romance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_(manga)). Kaoru Mori's a confirmed Anglophile as the numerous drawings and photographs of England on her blog (http://morikaoru.blog62.fc2.com/) show. ;)

The manga (http://www.dccomics.com/cmx/?action=on_sale&i=5775) is released in the US by DC Comic's manga division, CMX (http://www.dccomics.com/cmx/). Right Stuf (http://www.rightstuf.com/) released the anime (http://emma.rightstuf.com/). Both sites have previews. The manga had a historical supplement, no idea if it will be translated to English, though the Edwardian story Shirley is licensed.

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z60/clan_mum/Kaoru_Mori_033.gif)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z60/clan_mum/200px-Emma_manga_vol01.jpg)

Quote from: CavScout;255561Wow... is this a back-handed attempt to propagate the stereotype that blacks are lazy?

Nice try, but that's not what I said.  I just stated what I see on my drive to work every morning (and back to work after I go home for lunch).  The workers for the local maid service are always out on a smoke break every time I drive by.  I am saying the local maids appear to be a bit lazy, but I wasn't generalizing beyond that.

The "young black women" part was in response to Pundit's statement about maids in the US predominately being older, Hispanic women (in my area, the Hispanic population tends to work primarily at meat-packing plants and doing flood reconstruction work).  I was just pointing out a regional difference in the stereotypical maid.

But despite that I've explained it, I'm sure you'll still feel the need to follow up with some more faux-outrage, though.

Quote from: jgants;256138The "young black women" part was in response to Pundit's statement about maids in the US predominately being older, Hispanic women (in my area, the Hispanic population tends to work primarily at meat-packing plants and doing flood reconstruction work).  I was just pointing out a regional difference in the stereotypical maid.

Huh? Where did I say that?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;256174Huh? Where did I say that?

RPGPundit

Shit, you're right.  My bad.

It was something J Arcane, not you, said way back at the beginning of the thread (about replacing the sexualized maid girl with the "stereotypical elderly immigrant") that I was thinking of.  And even then, I didn't remember what he was talking about correctly.  That's what happens when you post without going back through the thread to double-check.

It's floating around the interwebs now, curiosity got the better of me.

It totally buries the needle on the weird-o-meter.

Don't bother asking me anything, I've deleted it.

Quote from: Fritzs;255615King of Old School: So, if it was for example 10 years old female demon, it would be acceptable, because demons, like orcs, aren't real?

What, slaughtering little demon girls?  Go for it!  They're demons, they're evil... besides which, do demons even really have childhoods?  Aren't their humanoid forms just illusions anyway?  Demons aren't regular organisms, AFAIK (notwithstanding that, yes, demons aren't real to begin with).

Or did you mean raping a 10yo female demon?  Well, I don't want that shit at my table whether you're talking about demons, orcs, humans, faeries or smurfs.  What you and your SO want to do in the privacy of your own home is totally cool with me, but playing out a rape scene (and I'm not talking about "fade to black" here) in a game in front of a group of people is IMO creepy as fuck.  YMMV.

KoOS

Quote from: J Arcane;255557And this right here is why I fucking hate bringing politics into a fucking gaming forum.

???

Oh, you think I'm talking about their political views!  No.  Even if Gleichman was a Gramsci-spouting anarchist (or, god forbid, a moderate), I'd still think he was a pathetic, socially-retarded fatbeard who makes the hobby look bad by association.

(Likewise Werekoala, but insert "semi-literate" into the sentence between "pathetic" and "socially-retarded.")

KoOS

Quote from: jgants;256187Shit, you're right.  My bad.

It was something J Arcane, not you, said way back at the beginning of the thread (about replacing the sexualized maid girl with the "stereotypical elderly immigrant") that I was thinking of.  And even then, I didn't remember what he was talking about correctly.  That's what happens when you post without going back through the thread to double-check.

Well, that's ok.  I'm probably the only person involved in this thread who actually HAS a maid, and she is, in fact, an elderly hispanic woman.
They just do the best job cleaning!

RPGPundit

I think it would be stranger if your maid wasn't a hispanic woman, all things being equal.

Maybe a hispanic man. Or a Korean man... do you put Jong into frilly black crepe? ;)

Quote from: Spike;256356I think it would be stranger if your maid wasn't a hispanic woman, all things being equal.

Maybe a hispanic man. Or a Korean man... do you put Jong into frilly black crepe? ;)

:rotfl:

This makes me think of a Smithers-Mr. Burns like relationship between Jong and RPGPundit.

walkerp: Weren't there some homosexual overtones at Smithers side:eek:

Quote from: Fritzs;256401walkerp: Weren't there some homosexual overtones at Smithers side:eek:

"Overtones"??
Hell, they've outed that character at least three or four times over the course of the SIMPSONS show. The writers and Harry Shearer have admitted that ongoing bit of business.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;256413"Overtones"??
Hell, they've outed that character at least three or four times over the course of the SIMPSONS show. The writers and Harry Shearer have admitted that ongoing bit of business.


- Ed C.

Yeah anyone who doesn't figure that out, has never actually watched the show.

Quote from: walkerp;256379This makes me think of a Smithers-Mr. Burns like relationship between Jong and RPGPundit.

Good thing this isn't TBP, eh?

Quote from: Spike;256356Maybe a hispanic man. Or a Korean man... do you put Jong into frilly black crepe? ;)

Evil dictators don't need to do that. Not when you can terrorize everyone with a couple of nukes so they give you money. ;)