Quote from: noisms;255616I dunno. $26.00 seems like a lot for a one-shot when you could just download, say, Risus for free and pretend to be Maids with that.

It's about what a hardback novel costs here.

I believe the assortment of random tables is the big drawcard, so....

Quote from: droog;255634It's about what a hardback novel costs here.

I believe the assortment of random tables is the big drawcard, so....

Fair enough. Maybe I'm just a stingy bastard.

noisms: OK, let's have a closer look at what you have written:

Quote from: noismsIt's speculation, but not baseless.

OK, nice, let's move on.

Quote from: noismsIt's based on having met a heck of a lot of male manga geeks. They generally (not always, before somebody starts to get offended!) fall into two categories - fat catpiss guy, and skinny effete emo guy.

My personal experience with male manga geeks is opposite... I hardly ever met any catpissguys and the skinny guys were just, you know, skinny, not effete or emo. So you are IMHO making generalization from few examples you managed to meet.

Quote from: noismsEither way, they aren't the type to enjoy successful, or indeed any, relations with women.

OK, but let's have closer look at assumption you make from this:

Quote from: noismsThis leads them ever-deeper into said world of sexual frustration, and ever-further away from self-respect....

Another example of unnecessary generalization.

Quote from: noismsuntil they reach the stage where they think it's acceptable to sit around with a load of other fat catpiss guys/skinny effete emo guys and roleplay out 'broomplay' fantasies on maids.

Oh great, so instead of seeking profesional help of some psychologist, or building basic hygiene habits, or doing whatever, it would automaticaly end at worst possible outcome... What you just demonstrated is very nice example logical fallancy called slippery slope.

noisms if Maid was about "broomplay fantasies" then yes by all means outrage away, hell I may even join you. However, from what John Kim has posted, about the only thing he finds dodgy about the game and by no means not the only thing one may find dodgy about it, is the art. Let's hold on to a little perspective here. Let's not go of the deep end in terms of the criticisms against the game. Let's keep in mind what KoOS said about intellectual dishonesty.

Regards,
David R

I'd aim for a comedy of manners campaign. Take Jeeves and Wooster, mix in the wonderful historical maid anime Emma: A Victorian Romance for more plot & detail, a dash of Tenchi Muyo for gonzo sci-fi comedy, and set it against the backdrop of Imperial Germany in Spaaaaace of Legend of the Galactic Heroes (LOGH).

With occasional nods to Upstairs, Downstairs, Touhou fightan gaems, and gaslight mystery / class  bits like Gosford Park.

Maid's a 200+ page regular size game, hardly a one off. The game allows for making male characters as well, so butlers, heads of households etc. are also possible. Alien, angel and robot maids are viable character types.

From the actual plays I've seen on 4chan, the game tends towards Paranoia meets Teenagers from Outer Space with costumes, pirates and spaceships. So you have the group of servants (maids & butlers) going off on adventures while scheming against each other and the head of the household. The maid stuff is a wacky troupe to get the game going and anchor the group.

My wife and I went to Japan in April, and she bought a Japanese copy of the game from a Yellow Submarine store in Akihabara.  It's sitting on a shelf in the den.  She played a demo at GenCon '07 and really liked it, so she really wanted to find a copy when we were in Japan.  A friend picked up the translation for her at this year's GenCon but we haven't seen him in a while, so she hasn't gotten it from him yet.

Interestingly, we were in the Yellow Submarine on a Saturday afternoon, and there must have been seven or eight tables of people (all guys) playing RPGs.

Quote from: noisms;255616I frankly find the whole 'racy skintight outfits' thing problematic too, but let's not open that can of worms.

I think comparing Maid to James Bond is a little disingenuous. The French Maid is a well known porn trope not only in Japan but throughout the world. Even if there is no sex directly involved, the undercurrent/frisson is surely constantly there - because otherwise what's entertaining about it? You might as well play Toilet Cleaner RPG or Road Sweepers & Recycling. The innuendo is the only fun or important thing.

James Bond on the other hand is an action hero/spy. There's a lot of sex in James Bond films, but you could take it out without damaging the story line of a rogue secret agent taking on a bald guy with a thing for cats.

I think the sexiness is pretty central to James Bond.  Conversely, you can have lots of wacky servant sitcom plots without the innuendo.  Jeeves & Wooster come to mind for me, since I'm hopefully going to be doing a Jeeves & Wooster larp in a week.  I'm not familiar with the anime genre, but the Maid RPG is filled with wacky stuff like ninjas, alien invasion, and so forth played for comedy.  

As for the spandex can of worms -- I think that's fairly central.  I agree with you that there is some creepiness involved in both comic book and anime fandom.  I'm not particularly taken by the Maid RPG -- I'm just saying that it isn't that different from many other RPGs.  It is not about sex, but it is sold on racy themes -- just like spandex-clad superheroes and some fantasy genres.  That doesn't make all of it acceptable, just recognizes that it is part of a trend rather than a unique outlier.

Quote from: noisms;255617Yeah it is.

Listen, I wasn't saying that catpiss guys and effete emo creeps are WRONG to be playing the game. Just that they are clearly the target demographic,

What information leads you to make this assumption?  I think this game is aimed at hipster gamers who are into trying new stuff and anime fans.

Quote from: Rezendevous;255663My wife and I went to Japan in April, and she bought a Japanese copy of the game from a Yellow Submarine store in Akihabara.  It's sitting on a shelf in the den.  She played a demo at GenCon '07 and really liked it, so she really wanted to find a copy when we were in Japan.  A friend picked up the translation for her at this year's GenCon but we haven't seen him in a while, so she hasn't gotten it from him yet.

Interestingly, we were in the Yellow Submarine on a Saturday afternoon, and there must have been seven or eight tables of people (all guys) playing RPGs.

Huh, the one time I went to Yellow Submarine I didn't see a single rpg, not one.  I still wonder what the hell I did wrong or if there was a room I missed or something.

Maybe it was rpg cleaning day, who knows?

Quote from: Fritzs;255638What you just demonstrated is very nice example logical fallancy called slippery slope.

I know English isn't your first language so it seems below the belt to say this, but I don't think you understood the tone in which I was writing, or the intent. I was talking about a slippery slope - that was the whole point. The road to catpissman-dom/effete emo kind-dom is a slippery slope. Logical fallacy doesn't come into it.

The problem of tone is an irritating one. I had my tongue firmly in my cheek when I was writing that little rant, but that never translates well on the internet.

Quote from: David R;255643noisms if Maid was about "broomplay fantasies" then yes by all means outrage away, hell I may even join you. However, from what John Kim has posted, about the only thing he finds dodgy about the game and by no means not the only thing one may find dodgy about it, is the art. Let's hold on to a little perspective here. Let's not go of the deep end in terms of the criticisms against the game. Let's keep in mind what KoOS said about intellectual dishonesty.

I'm really not outraged or outraging. Honestly. And I would never say people shouldn't play Maid. It's not even about broomplay fantasies - who cares? It's pretty mild as such things go. It's just that the thought of a bunch of creepy nerds slavering over their communal fantasies together... it sends shivers down my spine.

I suppose I just don't get the attraction. Isn't that what all arguments over RPGs come down to in the end?

Quote from: jhkim;255694I think the sexiness is pretty central to James Bond.  Conversely, you can have lots of wacky servant sitcom plots without the innuendo.  Jeeves & Wooster come to mind for me, since I'm hopefully going to be doing a Jeeves & Wooster larp in a week.  I'm not familiar with the anime genre, but the Maid RPG is filled with wacky stuff like ninjas, alien invasion, and so forth played for comedy.  

As for the spandex can of worms -- I think that's fairly central.  I agree with you that there is some creepiness involved in both comic book and anime fandom.  I'm not particularly taken by the Maid RPG -- I'm just saying that it isn't that different from many other RPGs.  It is not about sex, but it is sold on racy themes -- just like spandex-clad superheroes and some fantasy genres.  That doesn't make all of it acceptable, just recognizes that it is part of a trend rather than a unique outlier.

Okay, I can accept that argument.

Quote from: walkerp;255714What information leads you to make this assumption?  I think this game is aimed at hipster gamers who are into trying new stuff and anime fans.

Hipster gamers who are into trying new stuff and anime fans generally come under the category of "effete emo creep" in my experience.

I'm joking, obviously.

Quote from: Balbinus;255746Huh, the one time I went to Yellow Submarine I didn't see a single rpg, not one.  I still wonder what the hell I did wrong or if there was a room I missed or something.

Maybe it was rpg cleaning day, who knows?

There are lots of Yellow Submarines - it's a chain/franchise thing, and not all of them sell RPGs. I think there are at least two in Akihabara, and a couple of others in Shinjuku and Yokohama. There are probably many more. You might just have been unlucky in choosing one of the non-rpg ones.

Quote from: noisms;255749Isn't that what all arguments over RPGs come down to in the end?

Not really only the ones that lack substance. Subject matter is a perfectly legitimate topic of discussion, providing of course we are actually talking about the subject matter of the game in question and not assumptions and a general hate on for the type of game it's perceived to be. I mean the thought of folks playing Exalted send shivers down my spine but you don't see me going on about it.

Regards,
David R

noisms: Slippery slope is name of centrain logical fallancy. Yopu demonstrated it by claiming that being catpissman, emo guy will lead to have no success with opposite gender (which is just probyble, but not necessary true), that will leat to deeper sexual frustration (again, this might, or might not happen) and this will ultimately lead into complete lack of self respect and playing out broomstich fantasies with similar freaks, instead of leading into, lets say seeking profesional help, which is IMO far more probable.

Quote from: Fritzs;255781noisms: Slippery slope is name of centrain logical fallancy. Yopu demonstrated it by claiming that being catpissman, emo guy will lead to have no success with opposite gender (which is just probyble, but not necessary true), that will leat to deeper sexual frustration (again, this might, or might not happen) and this will ultimately lead into complete lack of self respect and playing out broomstich fantasies with similar freaks, instead of leading into, lets say seeking profesional help, which is IMO far more probable.

I know what a slippery slope logical fallacy is. This isn't the same thing is that. It really isn't.

The slippery slope from sexually frustrated nerd to deeper sexual frustration and to lack of self-respect is no more a logical fallacy than is the slippery slope from smoking pot to smoking heroin to injecting heroin. Not everybody who smokes pot ends up injecting heroin but the slippery slope from A to B is readily apparent and an observable phenomenon. There is no 'logical fallacy' because we aren't talking about logic or making an argument.

An example of a slippery slope logical fallacy is "First you legalise contraception and then abortion. Pretty soon you'll end up legalising murder!" If you can't see the difference between that and "It's an observable fact that smoking pot can be the start of a slippery slope towards injecting heroin" then there's not much else one can say to you.