By licenced incidentally, serial numbers crudely filed off so as to avoid lawsuits is fine by me.
Thief, the whole series. It just seems designed for gaming. Thieves, keepers, pagans, hammerites, wierd magical steam tech, treasure, undead, creepy towns and temples.
Deadly, rewards careful planning and thought, full of great NPC organisations, it just seems absolutely crying out for a paper and pencil treatment. Ideally not d20, or not with escalating hit points anyway, as a certain fragility of character is key to the setting concept.
Thoughts? How would you do it? And what would you like to see?
Thief was a great game, even if it did get lost slightly in the avalanche of stealthy games that emerged post Metal Gear Solid.
I adore thief games because they invariably invite you to push your luck. You start off robbing poor people then you try the more difficult richer people and the steepness of the reward curve and the difficulty curve always make you want to take risks as you think "well if I survive that I'll have LOADS of loot".
In fact, one of my pet hates in RPGs is when the GM downplays the rewards because he doesn't want us to get rich too soon even if we took huge risks to get it. I remember one game where we intricately planned this heist whereby we were A) stealing some princess's jewels and B) framing someone else in order to kick off a war between two people we didn't like.
The war kicked off fine but all the planning was wasted when we only got a few gold pieces for the jewels. I felt defiled.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThief was a great game, even if it did get lost slightly in the avalanche of stealthy games that emerged post Metal Gear Solid.
I adore thief games because they invariably invite you to push your luck. You start off robbing poor people then you try the more difficult richer people and the steepness of the reward curve and the difficulty curve always make you want to take risks as you think "well if I survive that I'll have LOADS of loot".
In fact, one of my pet hates in RPGs is when the GM downplays the rewards because he doesn't want us to get rich too soon even if we took huge risks to get it. I remember one game where we intricately planned this heist whereby we were A) stealing some princess's jewels and B) framing someone else in order to kick off a war between two people we didn't like.
The war kicked off fine but all the planning was wasted when we only got a few gold pieces for the jewels. I felt defiled.
Actually, you capture there something which I think can be very hard to balance.
Firstly, I tend to think that sometimes some stuff should result in great loot for little risk, sometimes tons of risk may yield little loot, but generally risk and loot should be linked as though oddities will happen if the loot is too easy the question arises of why someone else hasn't taken it yet. The only reason I think the first two should sometimes happen is just that sometimes life just isn't fair for good or ill, but over time the averages should work out so that the difficulty of the job and the value of the haul are fairly clearly linked.
The next bit is keeping it fair while keeping it interesting. Let's say you do a great job of looting something, if everyone is really enjoying the robbery side of things and they're all suddenly rich then that's just killed what everyone was enjoying as they don't need to do it anymore. If however they don't get a great reward you've still killed it as you've just hosed the players and all their effort.
I think the answer is in having something to spend it on. Be it drink and whores, better gear, magical protection or a good farm with healthy animals the characters need something that will soak up the money so that there is still incentive not just to retire but that will soak it up in a way that adds to the character - that isn't just zero sum. If a character blows his cash but afterwards has a fine new sword, a richly appointed townhouse and a new mistress but now needs money again then the player has seen a real reward but there is still incentive to keep adventuring.
That said, I'm firmly of the view that characters who don't die should by and large get rich, that's why people do this. If the rewards weren't huge nobody would risk their lives.
What is a pain is if a player just won't spend the money. I had one once where the party made tons of cash eventually, they became quite wealthy. One bought a house with servants, another bought books for magical research, and one lived in the same garret apartment with the same crappy food and spent nothing. I could never work out what he was actually adventuring for, the others all had goals and adventured to get cash to realise those goals, he just seemed to like having a lot of money in the bank.
the very same reasons it made a great computer game, are the same reasons it would fail as an RPG.
Quote from: Lawbagthe very same reasons it made a great computer game, are the same reasons it would fail as an RPG.
I know of people who have successfully run it as a tabletop, and the setting seems perfectly well suited. What makes you say this? I don't see any reason at all you couldn't do it as a party based game.
Quote from: BalbinusFirstly, I tend to think that sometimes some stuff should result in great loot for little risk, sometimes tons of risk may yield little loot, but generally risk and loot should be linked as though oddities will happen if the loot is too easy the question arises of why someone else hasn't taken it yet. The only reason I think the first two should sometimes happen is just that sometimes life just isn't fair for good or ill, but over time the averages should work out so that the difficulty of the job and the value of the haul are fairly clearly linked.
The next bit is keeping it fair while keeping it interesting. Let's say you do a great job of looting something, if everyone is really enjoying the robbery side of things and they're all suddenly rich then that's just killed what everyone was enjoying as they don't need to do it anymore. If however they don't get a great reward you've still killed it as you've just hosed the players and all their effort.
As for the first bit, yeah, I totally agree. It also adds to the verisimilitude if there's a sense of randomness in there. It shouldn't be completely straight-forward to do risk/benefit analyses. One time you could stumble across another thief's nest egg in an otherwise tumble-down house. Another time you might break into the palace of the Marsh Hierophant only to learn that he has gone to a conclave and taken his most impressive pieces of bling with him (because we all know that religious types love their bling).
As for the second bit, I think money, if treated as something other than a character comodity like hit points, is rarely zero sum. If you're a group of blokes living out of a one room apartment in the shades and suddenly you have enough money to buy a small mansion aren't the authorities going to take an interest? What about the guy whose money they stole... surely he's not going to just suck it up. Similarly if the group risk their lives and get nothing then clearly they've been fed a line by someone. Who? Why? In truth, money brings with it complications and it shouldn't ever kill the fun.
Consider The Long Good Friday - Incredibly wealthy and succesful gangster has seen off all the competition and lives on a luxury yacht with a beautiful refined wife. Suddenly his friends and employees start turning up dead and his properties are being blown up. What was Bob Hoskins playing if not a bloke who started out small and then got the loot only to find out that he still had problems?
Actually, that's one thing that has always annoyed me about the Grand Theft Auto series and particularly San Andreas. You start off with nothing and you gradually start to build something... you take over a few neighbourhoods and you get some contacts. The problem is that you then just keep doing the same thing, earning more and more money but the challenges stay precisely the same.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAs for the second bit, I think money, if treated as something other than a character comodity like hit points, is rarely zero sum. If you're a group of blokes living out of a one room apartment in the shades and suddenly you have enough money to buy a small mansion aren't the authorities going to take an interest? What about the guy whose money they stole... surely he's not going to just suck it up. Similarly if the group risk their lives and get nothing then clearly they've been fed a line by someone. Who? Why? In truth, money brings with it complications and it shouldn't ever kill the fun.
Good points all, plus you become a target for thieves yourself of course. If you splash the money about people start asking where it came from, if you don't then what's the point of getting it? Tax shakedowns, competing thieves, private investigations to track the loot.
Hm, you make it all sound quite fun actually.
Quote from: BalbinusThoughts?
I'd love to write it. The hammerites, in particular, are something I could really sink my teeth into as a writer.
I missed the game entirely when it was new (because I rarely bother with computer games) but Warren Spector and I were talking about what computer games I liked and I gave my usual answer of "not much since Doom II" and he sang the game's praises (this was before he was personally involved with it; he was busy with Deus Ex at that time), so later on I tried it (with a bargain-bin copy of Thief Gold) and found it to be a work of something approaching Total Awesome. Got very hooked, and I think the setting would be a very rich one if properly developed for table-games.
"The Simple Life" The Role Playing Game
*Runs Away*
I think Pirates of the Caribean would be a great D20 setting. Just add a bunch of piratey classes.
Who else thinks the girl in that movie is level 6 Noble/2 Swashbuckler.
Jack Sparrow. Level 5 Rogue/3 Swashbuckler/1 Captain.
That blonde guy. Level 8 Swashbuckler.
So easy.
Quote from: KrakaJakI think Pirates of the Caribean would be a great D20 setting. Just add a bunch of piratey classes.
Who else thinks the girl in that movie is level 6 Noble/2 Swashbuckler.
Jack Sparrow. Level 5 Rogue/3 Swashbuckler/1 Captain.
That blonde guy. Level 8 Swashbuckler.
So easy.
How about a system that is customer tailered for the setting instead of throwing D20 at it.
Because a Pirateds of the Caribean game sounds like fun but not if its D20
I'd like to see a good rpg based on the new battlestar galactica.
By good I mean very faithful to the material, with inut from the writers and such.
Quote from: Dominus NoxI'd like to see a good rpg based on the new battlestar galactica.
By good I mean very faithful to the material, with inut from the writers and such.
Now there's a bit of irony. ;)
Quote from: KrakaJakI think Pirates of the Caribean would be a great D20 setting. Just add a bunch of piratey classes.
Skull & Bones is almost a PotC game as-written.
Quote from: Geek MessiahHow about a system that is customer tailered for the setting instead of throwing D20 at it.
I think Skull & Bones demonstrates pretty handily that D20 can be just as easily tweaked to fit the feel as a custom game could be crafted.
Quote from: Dominus NoxI'd like to see a good rpg based on the new battlestar galactica.
By good I mean very faithful to the material, with inut from the writers and such.
Well from what I hear MWP is doing the BSG RPG and they have great access to the writers. So I guess we will just have to wait and see.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadSkull & Bones is almost a PotC game as-written...
I think Skull & Bones demonstrates pretty handily that D20 can be just as easily tweaked to fit the feel as a custom game could be crafted.
Yeah, I agree. Too often d20 is dismissed out of hand for no really quantifiable reason. But we've seen it successfully tweaked to fit all manner of genres. Plus, in my experience, there are plenty of gamers who want to learn one system and that's it - "we want to play, not learn a new game!" For a lot of gamers, playing is a lot more desirable than experimenting with new systems.
I think a Battlestar Galactica RPG would be a colossal waste of time and energy. Just thinking about it makes me shudder... fighter AND capital ship combat systems, maybe a benefits and disadvantages list with the failing "alcoholic" so that gamers everywhere can gleefully miss the point and go blow up Cylons.
Quote from: Geek MessiahHow about a system that is customer tailered for the setting instead of throwing D20 at it.
Because a Pirateds of the Caribean game sounds like fun but not if its D20
Ummm I'm sorry you don't like d20?
However, Watching the last movie that came out, it seemed as if it was a d20 game played out in live action. The Krakken even retreated underwater to regenerate!
As d20 seems to similate the movie pretty well, I wouldn't want someone to try to create a custom system that sucked, but use s system that already works and apply special setting flavor to it:)
Ceasar Slaad: I may have to check out Skull and Bones (who puts it out?)
Quote from: KrakaJakCeasar Slaad: I may have to check out Skull and Bones (who puts it out?)
Green Ronin.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI think a Battlestar Galactica RPG would be a colossal waste of time and energy. Just thinking about it makes me shudder... fighter AND capital ship combat systems, maybe a benefits and disadvantages list with the failing "alcoholic" so that gamers everywhere can gleefully miss the point and go blow up Cylons.
Quick fix for that: Run a cylon camapign!
"The Horror! The Horror!"
It's like the idea of someone running a Singing Detective campaign.
I wish someone would get the license to do another Ringworld RPG. Same goes for Dune.
Quote from: Dominus NoxI'd like to see a good rpg based on the new battlestar galactica.
By good I mean very faithful to the material, with inut from the writers and such.
There is going to be a game. Sadly it is going to be done by MWP using their very flawed (and really poor IMHO) system.
I imagine it will emulate the genre just as poorly as the system did for Serenity.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI think Skull & Bones demonstrates pretty handily that D20 can be just as easily tweaked to fit the feel as a custom game could be crafted.
Since I don't like D20 and wont play it S&B wont do me any good. Thanks anyway
Quote from: Geek MessiahSince I don't like D20 and wont play it S&B wont do me any good. Thanks anyway
Off Topic: Just a curiosity... What don't you like about d20?
Admitted I'm not a huge fan of DnD (An "all my friends play it" kind of thing) but it's not a bad time for me.
On topic: Missile Command.
I imagine it a game a lot like like paranoia, except on a global scale!
Quote from: Geek MessiahSince I don't like D20 and wont play it S&B wont do me any good. Thanks anyway
That's all well and good, but you were responding to someone else as if your reasons for thinking it won't work were objective as well, so I thought it only fair that I respond in such a manner.
Quote from: KrakaJakCeasar Slaad: I may have to check out Skull and Bones (who puts it out?)
Like the Colonel said, Green Ronin:
Green Ronin Product Catalog Link (http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1018)
RPGshp link (http://enworld.rpgshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=33252&)
Since you don't really dig D&D magic, the "stripped down magic" may appeal to you a bit as well.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadThat's all well and good, but you were responding to someone else as if your reasons for thinking it won't work were objective as well, so I thought it only fair that I respond in such a manner.
Not true at all. I said and I quote "Since Skull and Bones is D20 and I dont play D20 it wouldnt work for me"
I thought it was clear and the reasoning was clear as well. I am not sure what thread you were reading but I never said the D20 wouldnt work for wrestling. Im not quite sure where you got that from.
Quote from: Geek MessiahNot true at all. I said and I quote "Since Skull and Bones is D20 and I dont play D20 it wouldnt work for me"
I thought it was clear and the reasoning was clear as well. I am not sure what thread you were reading but I never said the D20 wouldnt work for wrestling. Im not quite sure where you got that from.
In the post I was actually responding to, you said:
Quote from: Geek MessiahHow about a system that is customer tailered for the setting instead of throwing D20 at it.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadIn the post I was actually responding to, you said:
Ok, now that you have quoted the comment I made I am on the same page as you.
However nowhere in the comment does it say that D20 cant do it, I simply said that I prefer systems that are actually tailored to the game then throwing D20 at everything.
D20 cant do everything perfectly (No generic system can) and while I know people like to use d20 so they can learn one system and not have to learn another system I feel that games that have their own game mechanics custom made for the game are more enjoyable.
Quote from: Geek MessiahOk, now that you have quoted the comment I made I am on the same page as you.
However nowhere in the comment does it say that D20 cant do it, I simply said that I prefer systems that are actually tailored to the game then throwing D20 at everything.
D20 cant do everything perfectly (No generic system can) and while I know people like to use d20 so they can learn one system and not have to learn another system I feel that games that have their own game mechanics custom made for the game are more enjoyable.
There are a lot of examples of d20/OGL games where the mechanics are tailored to the setting, and which are pretty successful - Babylon 5, Conan, Mutants & Masterminds, Spycraft, The Black Company. That's the point of a generic system - for many genres and settings, d20 would fit the bill as well as any other system, tailor-made or not, especially if d20 is retooled to fit. Doesn't mean new systems can't be made. Just that in some cases, what's the point? Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG is a game I use as a case in point quite often. It really evokes the setting quite well, but the main system is, essentially, very much like a streamlined d20 system, using 2d6 instead of 1d20 as the main mechanic. The designers went out of their way to make a new game that wasn't d20 (I can't say for sure, but I'd guess purposely so), but ended up with a game not that different from d20. I'm not sure what the point was in that.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonThere are a lot of examples of d20/OGL games where the mechanics are tailored to the setting, and which are pretty successful - Babylon 5, Conan, Mutants & Masterminds, Spycraft, The Black Company. That's the point of a generic system - for many genres and settings, d20 would fit the bill as well as any other system, tailor-made or not, especially if d20 is retooled to fit. Doesn't mean new systems can't be made. Just that in some cases, what's the point? Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG is a game I use as a case in point quite often. It really evokes the setting quite well, but the main system is, essentially, very much like a streamlined d20 system, using 2d6 instead of 1d20 as the main mechanic. The designers went out of their way to make a new game that wasn't d20 (I can't say for sure, but I'd guess purposely so), but ended up with a game not that different from d20. I'm not sure what the point was in that.
While this is true it has to keep some of the qualites of D20 which makes it D20 enough for me. Had Spycraft and found the rules so confusing that the game is now with the other games I am selling.
If its D20 I am not interested it and wont play it. Period.
Dammit, how could I have forgotten to add in "Ghost in the shell" as one of the games I'd love to see done........?!?!?!
I knew some guys who were running Skull and Bones and the inflating hit points killed it for them. There was apparently a scene where the enemy drew pistols on them and the players pretty much said "that has one shot, it doesn't do enough damage to seriously wound us and can't be reloaded quickly". A pirates game in which a drawn pistol is no threat at all is IMO seriously flawed.
Quote from: BalbinusI knew some guys who were running Skull and Bones and the inflating hit points killed it for them. There was apparently a scene where the enemy drew pistols on them and the players pretty much said "that has one shot, it doesn't do enough damage to seriously wound us and can't be reloaded quickly". A pirates game in which a drawn pistol is no threat at all is IMO seriously flawed.
Hmmm. I don't entirely disagree with you. That said, it's been long enough since I read it that I don't clearly recall the details of its damage system. I DO recall that it is much more gritty in the realm of persistent injuries, but tried to fashion HP in a manner similar to the vitality point system, where they represented heroism and fatigue.
Let me ask you this though.
1) Would you include a Pirates of the Carribean feel game as part of this? After all, no major character ever dies from a gunshot there.
2) Would you say that a PotC deserves a damage system on the same order as a Star Wars game would? Because over on ENWorld, one fellow (indeed, a game designer) argued with me at length that Star Wars d20 RCR was WRONG WRONG WRONG for the VP/WP system because it created the more everpresent threat of death. I, on the other hand, liked it because it made players not be able to stare down blasters without fear and WOULD have characters running from stormtroopers. Like they did.
Obviously, there's a bit of conundrum of needs here. One that might deserve its own thread on the game design forum.
Quote from: Dominus NoxGhost in the shell
Is that the anime that has huge robot spiders on wheels that are sentient and talk like little girls? I saw a snippet on the Cartoon channel the other day at a friends' house and it caught my attention.
Quote from: BalbinusI knew some guys who were running Skull and Bones and the inflating hit points killed it for them. There was apparently a scene where the enemy drew pistols on them and the players pretty much said "that has one shot, it doesn't do enough damage to seriously wound us and can't be reloaded quickly". A pirates game in which a drawn pistol is no threat at all is IMO seriously flawed.
All this will do is bring up the "What do hit points mean" argument. I would say, hook your Boss pirate up with a brace of pistols. It was common for pirates to carry a 6-8 Pistols on them for that very reason, reloading is a bitch!.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadWould you include a Pirates of the Carribean feel game as part of this? After all, no major character ever dies from a gunshot there.
I think a better question would be "Do the major characters treat a loaded pistol as a deadly threat?" If they do, then a pistol ought to be a deadly threat.
Quote from: VellorianIs that the anime that has huge robot spiders on wheels that are sentient and talk like little girls? I saw a snippet on the Cartoon channel the other day at a friends' house and it caught my attention.
Well, the tachikomas aren't all that 'huge, really, no bigger than some SUVs I've seen. They have 4 legs and can move on wheels or walking.
They talk like children because their AI units are at a child like level of intelligence, really. The writer wanted to make them child like to refelct an AI that was at most equal to a child's intelligence.
I was keeping an eye out for a Warhammer 40K RPG. Sure my campaign would be completely deconstructionist, but it would be nice to have a starting point.
Then I found out that it was being made, in D20.
Sigh. No sale.
I would absolutely love a Thief game. I thought the same thing while going through it. It's a very rich world - or has the potential to be, at least.
-O
I've always thought it would be interesting to try Grim Fandango as a RPG.
Quote from: gleichmanI was keeping an eye out for a Warhammer 40K RPG. Sure my campaign would be completely deconstructionist, but it would be nice to have a starting point.
Then I found out that it was being made, in D20.
Sigh. No sale.
d20 sounds good to me, but...why wouldn't they use the Warhammer RPG system that was just released? That's not d20.
Quote from: ColonelHardissond20 sounds good to me, but...why wouldn't they use the Warhammer RPG system that was just released? That's not d20.
No idea. Lots of possible reasons occur but I have nothing to favor one over the other.
Quote from: gleichmanI was keeping an eye out for a Warhammer 40K RPG. Sure my campaign would be completely deconstructionist, but it would be nice to have a starting point.
Then I found out that it was being made, in D20.
Sigh. No sale.
Where the hell did you hear that??!?!? It's using the same system as WHFRP
Clipped from the official press release:
MARCH 14 2006 (Nottingham, England) 2007 will mark the 20th anniversary of the first publication of Games Workshop’s legendary Warhammer 40,000 game system. It’s no coincidence that March 2007 will also see one of the most eagerly awaited events in gaming history – the release of Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay (40KRP)! Rumours have been circulating in the roleplay community for many years about such a game. Now Black Industries, fresh from the success of the revamped Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, can reveal that it really will be happening, and in a way no one is expecting. Because there won’t be one 40KRP game, but three! Warhammer 40,000: Dark Heresy will be the first 40KRP game, allowing players to take on the role of an Inquisitor’s retinue. Their task is to uproot the taint of Chaos in Imperial society, to smash dark cults and foil sinister plots. It’s a game of investigation and will be an ideal introduction to the dark and gothic universe of the 41st Millennium. Dark Heresy is just the beginning, however. After this basic game, two further games released eighteen months apart will allow the players to progress and explore the universe first as Rogue Traders and alien pirates, and eventually experienced players will be able to roleplay the devastating warriors of the Adeptus Astartes Deathwatch. All three games use the same game system, which is itself based in part upon the award-winning Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Players will be able to progress from one system to the next, as they gain experience and a measure of understanding of the vastly detailed universe of Warhammer 40,000. Each of the games will consist of a core rulebook accompanied by regular releases of sourcebooks and adventures.
Quote from: KrakaJakWhere the hell did you hear that??!?!? It's using the same system as WHFRP[/I]
Don't remember where I heard it. Seems it wasn't a good source.
So, what is the Warhammer Fantasy system like?
Quote from: SigmundI've always thought it would be interesting to try Grim Fandango as a RPG.
I'd write that.
They're abbreviating it 40KRP? I keep hearing Baby, if you've ever wondered, wondered whatever became of me in my head.
Quote from: Levi KornelsenI'd write that.
Well get to it LK. I'll be your first rabid fanboy ;)
Quote from: SigmundWell get to it LK. I'll be your first rabid fanboy ;)
You tempt me.
But I have
three games on the chopping block right now - one in editing, and two that are just collection of ideas that have made me bounce around and make happy noises.
So, uh, it'll be a while. But I'll put it on the big list of "shit I totally gotta do".
QuoteI wish someone would get the license to do another Ringworld RPG. Same goes for Dune.
Seconded. €50 for the company who just anounces that!
Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou tempt me.
But I have three games on the chopping block right now - one in editing, and two that are just collection of ideas that have made me bounce around and make happy noises.
So, uh, it'll be a while. But I'll put it on the big list of "shit I totally gotta do".
Ok, but ya won't get the rabid fanboy treatment from me until ya make it official :)
Also, since I'm actually playing through the game yet again right now let me know if ya have any questions.
Quote from: SigmundWell get to it LK. I'll be your first rabid fanboy ;)
And I'll be your second.
I'd like to see a roleplaying game made based off of China Mieville's Perdido Street Station.