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My list is Steve Jackson, Palladium, and since Sean Patrick Fannon got run out of PEG, Pinnical.

Any other major publishers that haven't been stricken with the Seattle virus?

Quote from: Lurtch;1065167My list is Steve Jackson, Palladium, and since Sean Patrick Fannon got run out of PEG, Pinnical.

Any other major publishers that haven't been stricken with the Seattle virus?

SJG has their own skeletons in the closet. Considering they value only profit due to their business model. All bets are off that SJG wont suddenly up and declare all their old books sexist, including Munchkin, Ogre, and Car Wars and start a mad dash to "fix" it all and "cash in" on the big money appeasing SJWs brings in. :rolleyes:

Oh and they were I believe making some tiny SJW "oh no! That was sexist and we had to fix it!" noise during the TFT reprint so you may have lost them allready.

I doubt Palladium ever will as they were allready pretty balanced. One of the main recurring NPCs of Rifts is a woman for example.

As for the rest. Who knows? This SJW disease can crop up without warning sometimes. One day they are fine. The next they are full tilt loons.

Hero System (although it's in a coma.)

Quote from: Aglondir;1065186Hero System (although it's in a coma.)

Thought Hero was still chugging along slowly but surely? Or is this a more recent decline?

Speaking of. Only just recently realized that Justice Inc was based on the Hero System?

Ah, this brings back the memories https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36817-RPG-publisher-non-SJW-whitelist&highlight=SJW+RPG+publishers :D

Edit: Here's a useful thread - https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37098-SJWs-have-taken-over-D-amp-D-and-S-amp-W-and-Onyx-WW-who-is-left&highlight=SJW+RPG+publishers
Edit 2: Just re-read the first 15 pages of that thread, I retract my recommendation. :\

Quote from: Omega;1065187Thought Hero was still chugging along slowly but surely? Or is this a more recent decline?

Speaking of. Only just recently realized that Justice Inc was based on the Hero System?

In the last few years, they haven't done much: Champions Complete (which was good) and Fantasy Hero Complete (not so much.) Tbe rest of their output has been reprinting thier back catalog from previous editions (there's a great deal right now on Bundle of Holding, if this interests you) and a couple of Kickstarters.

We should close this thread. Delete it if possible. Dont want to give Ettin a hit list.

Sine Nomine isn't a major publishing house, but both the quantity and quality seem like it. So far he's avoided the Eye of Sjauron.

PEG (Pinnacle) should be considered progressive.

They just don't use tolerance as a reason to hate/belittle people nor do they pretend that silly mundane human differences are somehow interesting in their actually interesting settings.

I feel like Sean ran himself out. He still does work for PEG.

Quote from: Lurtch;1065167My list is Steve Jackson, Palladium, and since Sean Patrick Fannon got run out of PEG, Pinnical.

Any other major publishers that haven't been stricken with the Seattle virus?

Far Future Enterprises.

Ummm autarch of ack? Lotfp? Kenzer co?
All of these pretty much ignore identity politics.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1065198Far Future Enterprises.

True, but they are only repackaging old stuff.

Quote from: Aglondir;1065221True, but they are only repackaging old stuff.

^^This^^

Quote from: Malfi;1065206Ummm autarch of ack? Lotfp? Kenzer co?
All of these pretty much ignore identity politics.

Good for them!

Quote from: Aglondir;1065221True, but they are only repackaging old stuff.

Something new is coming out soon from them.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1065230Something new is coming out soon from them.

Hopefully:)!

Quote from: Aglondir;1065196Sine Nomine isn't a major publishing house, but both the quantity and quality seem like it. So far he's avoided the Eye of Sjauron.

Oh, there have been accusations of sexism (Stars Without Number) and racism (Spears of the Dawn, Red Tide). Luckily it's only been small-time stuff and the mobs never formed, but there were still people that got upset about stuff he wrote. I'm really looking forward to Wolves of God and dearly hoping no one gets upset about that one when it comes out in a year or two.

It has been reported by Roboject that Marc has finished with the T5 errata and that people in the committee are reviewing the document now.  His second novel is close to finished as well.  So, a little new stuff if slowly.

Quote from: Aglondir;1065193In the last few years, they haven't done much: Champions Complete (which was good) and Fantasy Hero Complete (not so much.) Tbe rest of their output has been reprinting thier back catalog from previous editions (there's a great deal right now on Bundle of Holding, if this interests you) and a couple of Kickstarters.

That is actually a good thing. Reprinting old material.

Quote from: Lurtch;1065194We should close this thread. Delete it if possible. Dont want to give Ettin a hit list.

(a) I don't think it's good to be living in fear.
(b) They don't need a list; they work off triggering incidents, which may come from committed SJW publishers like Evil Hat.

Quote from: S'mon;1065251(b) They don't need a list; they work off triggering incidents, which may come from committed SJW publishers like Evil Hat.

I stay away from The Design Mechanism as well.

Quote from: David Johansen;1065243It has been reported by Roboject that Marc has finished with the T5 errata and that people in the committee are reviewing the document now.  His second novel is close to finished as well.  So, a little new stuff if slowly.

For the life of me I do not understand Marc Miller. Instead of publishing and re-publishing a version of Traveller that no one wants, he could have spent the last 20 years publishing new stuff for CT.

It's like if Gary Gygax had re-gained the rights to D&D, but kept making stuff for Cyborg Commandos.

Maybe, but I and a few others still want it.  Personally CT is a fundamentally broken, scattered mess and thus no better than T5.

I'm genuinely reluctant to name the publishers who aren't converts to the new faith. I don't want to bring the inquisitors down on them.

Bonus points for anyone who adds 'SJW' as an entry in their bestiary.  Jeezus! its like a hydra!

Quote from: vincenttakeda;1065293bonus points for anyone who adds 'sjw' as an entry in their bestiary.  Jeezus! Its like a hydra!

hail hydra!

Politically I lean libertarian. My games are apolitical. Although ACKS has been criticized as being unwoke because it uses the word "king" in the title.

What about Modiphus?

Star Trek has always been sort of mildly Left (by now it probably looks moderate) but some of the other titles don't seem very SJW: Conan, Coriolis, Achtung Cthulhu, Mutant Year Zero, Space 1889, Mindjammer (?)

Quote from: Aglondir;1065402What about Modiphus?

Star Trek has always been sort of mildly Left (by now it probably looks moderate) but some of the other titles don't seem very SJW: Conan, Coriolis, Achtung Cthulhu, Mutant Year Zero, Space 1889, Mindjammer (?)

They are very left liberal and comply with SJW diktats. But I have not seen SJW attacks originate from them.

Quote from: Aglondir;1065402What about Modiphus?

Star Trek has always been sort of mildly Left (by now it probably looks moderate) but some of the other titles don't seem very SJW: Conan, Coriolis, Achtung Cthulhu, Mutant Year Zero, Space 1889, Mindjammer (?)

Mindjammer is played by a lot of latent SJWs. They're the same crowd that idolize Iain Banks and Kim Stanley Robinson.

Quote from: amacris;1065380Politically I lean libertarian. My games are apolitical. Although ACKS has been criticized as being unwoke because it uses the word "king" in the title.

You owe me a laptop cleaning since the idiocy of that concept just had me spray mine. There is a serious malfunction in people.

Quote from: amacris;1065380Politically I lean libertarian. My games are apolitical. Although ACKS has been criticized as being unwoke because it uses the word "king" in the title.

Is it being criticized for being reactionary or for being gendered?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1065449Is it being criticized for being reactionary or for being gendered?

My guess is "both", converging into "#PatriarchyBad".

Quote from: amacris;1065380Politically I lean libertarian. My games are apolitical. Although ACKS has been criticized as being unwoke because it uses the word "king" in the title.

LOL You made me think of the King of the Dragons in Patricia Wrede's Enchanted Forests books. ("King" is a title and the female dragon who becomes King is really confused when her human asks why she isn't the Queen of the Dragons.) https://www.pcwrede.com/dragons-and-gender-bias-huh/ (https://www.pcwrede.com/dragons-and-gender-bias-huh/)

I say postmortem off the top o my head.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/210283/Tales-of-Gor-Gorean-Roleplaying

So, all this begs the question of whether there is a support base for a not "woke" publisher.  I'm not talking about a pack of degenerate racists who think women are aliens from another planet that should only exist to please men.  Just a company that's not bending to the social pressure to conform.  I think Legends of the Flame Princess and Dungeon Crawl Classics take it a little too far even.

But there's a massive movement that refuses to support publishers that fail to meet their approval and I wonder how much incentive there is for a publisher to hold firm.

Quote from: David Johansen;1065574So, all this begs the question of whether there is a support base for a not "woke" publisher.  I'm not talking about a pack of degenerate racists who think women are aliens from another planet that should only exist to please men.  Just a company that's not bending to the social pressure to conform.  I think Legends of the Flame Princess and Dungeon Crawl Classics take it a little too far even.

Take political correctness too far?

Quote from: David Johansen;1065574But there's a massive movement that refuses to support publishers that fail to meet their approval and I wonder how much incentive there is for a publisher to hold firm.

It's not massive. Progressive activists make up 8 per cent of Americans, and given the demographics of the hobby, maybe 25 per cent of active tabletop gamers. They're just extremely vocal (and organized) on social media. The great majority of gamers don't give a shit about any of this stuff. The question is whether publishers have the courage to aim their products at the silent majority, or whether they succumb to the smear campaigns and brigading of a zealous minority.

No, the question is whether the zealots impact sales enough that a courageous publisher can't make a buck.  It doesn't take much to tip a purchasing decision to another product.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1065449Is it being criticized for being reactionary or for being gendered?

The conversation went something like this:
"With your gendered title you are signaling that your game is not for people like me."
"It's named after the Conan series of novels, Conan the Adventurer, Conan the Conqueror, Conan the King. That's who it's intended to appeal to."
"Citing some 1930s pulp as your justification doesn't help."
"Are you actually interested in a game about adventurers who become military conquerors that evolves into a tabletop wargame?"
"No I don't like wargames."

I ultimately don't lose sleep over people who... wouldn't play my game anyway.... not playing my game. Jeep doesn't market to Prius buyers.

Quote from: Haffrung;1065612Take political correctness too far?



It's not massive. Progressive activists make up 8 per cent of Americans, and given the demographics of the hobby, maybe 25 per cent of active tabletop gamers. They're just extremely vocal (and organized) on social media. The great majority of gamers don't give a shit about any of this stuff. The question is whether publishers have the courage to aim their products at the silent majority, or whether they succumb to the smear campaigns and brigading of a zealous minority.

Most of those gamers that don't give a care will cave to the SJWs (see general public). So publishers will then make more SJW stuff.

Quote from: amacris;1065636The conversation went something like this:
"With your gendered title you are signaling that your game is not for people like me."
"It's named after the Conan series of novels, Conan the Adventurer, Conan the Conqueror, Conan the King. That's who it's intended to appeal to."
"Citing some 1930s pulp as your justification doesn't help."
"Are you actually interested in a game about adventurers who become military conquerors that evolves into a tabletop wargame?"
"No I don't like wargames."

I ultimately don't lose sleep over people who... wouldn't play my game anyway.... not playing my game. Jeep doesn't market to Prius buyers.

TIL that if I ever get into the RPG publishing business, I need to find a way to work the word "King" into every title. That synopsis is pure gold, and seeing as I was on the fence anyway about picking up ACKS, I'm thinking I'll pick up a copy of your game this weekend if I can swing it.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1065681TIL that if I ever get into the RPG publishing business, I need to find a way to work the word "King" into every title. That synopsis is pure gold, and seeing as I was on the fence anyway about picking up ACKS, I'm thinking I'll pick up a copy of your game this weekend if I can swing it.

Thank you for your support! *salutes*

Most small-press publishers, I think, especially in the OSR, aren't interested in SJW politics at all.  The problem is a couple of minor publishers infected with it from the start, plus a few of the major ones that have had massive entryism.

I am resurrecting this thread from 2018 for up-to-date recommendations on non-woke RPG publishers.

I was sad to see Swords and Wizardry succumb to wokeness with their new Core Rulebook cover art from the all-female art team led by "a pansexual genderqueer/fluid person who prefers the pronouns of 'they/them/their'."

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/froggodgames/swords-and-wizardry-complete-rulebook-3rd-printing

Is the core book with this cover art even still available? I cannot find it on Frog God's website or DriveThru RPG. Maybe they decided it was a bad idea, after all?

I'm asleep most of the time. Does that count?

Quote from: 1989;1139158I am resurrecting this thread from 2018 for up-to-date recommendations on non-woke RPG publishers.

I was sad to see Swords and Wizardry succumb to wokeness with their new Core Rulebook cover art from the all-female art team led by "a pansexual genderqueer/fluid person who prefers the pronouns of 'they/them/their'."

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/froggodgames/swords-and-wizardry-complete-rulebook-3rd-printing

Is the core book with this cover art even still available? I cannot find it on Frog God's website or DriveThru RPG. Maybe they decided it was a bad idea, after all?

Eh, the monster they created unsurprisingly turned on them. I'm pretty sure they realised it was a bad idea when she (Stacey) was Cancelling them.

Judges Guild for the boomerific win.

Quote from: S'mon;1139176Eh, the monster they created unsurprisingly turned on them. I'm pretty sure they realised it was a bad idea when she (Stacey) was Cancelling them.

Hmmm, I must have missed that part. Interesting. Do you have a link for this?

Quote from: 1989;1139158I am resurrecting this thread from 2018 for up-to-date recommendations on non-woke RPG publishers.

I was sad to see Swords and Wizardry succumb to wokeness with their new Core Rulebook cover art from the all-female art team led by "a pansexual genderqueer/fluid person who prefers the pronouns of 'they/them/their'."

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/froggodgames/swords-and-wizardry-complete-rulebook-3rd-printing

Is the core book with this cover art even still available? I cannot find it on Frog God's website or DriveThru RPG. Maybe they decided it was a bad idea, after all?

That and Frog God are way liberal.

Quote from: 1989;1139208Hmmm, I must have missed that part. Interesting. Do you have a link for this?

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40467-Frog-God-Games-is-Suing-Christopher-Helton-Price-amp-Dellorfano-too!&highlight=Stacey

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1065253I stay away from The Design Mechanism as well.

  What's wrong with the Design Mechanism? John Snead's work tends to left-wing silliness in spots (Stalin turning the USSR into a capitalist dictatorship? Really?), but I haven't seen anything in corporate policy.

  For the original question, Troll Lord Games is pretty apolitical, and their core line is problematic for the Hard Progressives by virtue of its name alone. :)

Palladium is 20 years behind the industry in many ways, and in this case, it's a boon.  

Zero wokeness, but with cool powerful female NPCs.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1139398Palladium is 20 years behind the industry in many ways, and in this case, it's a boon.  

Zero wokeness

My Runelords game uses Paizo stuff from 2007-2012; currently City of Strangers from 2009/10. The lack of wokeness is almost eerie at times - it's easy to forget Paizo were once a normal games company. Of course now the media is pushing extreme wokeness on our entire society. Wonder if Paizo will be putting warnings on their pre-2012 product.

Quote from: S'mon;1139417My Runelords game uses Paizo stuff from 2007-2012; currently City of Strangers from 2009/10. The lack of wokeness is almost eerie at times - it's easy to forget Paizo were once a normal games company. Of course now the media is pushing extreme wokeness on our entire society. Wonder if Paizo will be putting warnings on their pre-2012 product.

I always hated Paizo for their overuse of Wayne Reynolds art. (Can't stand that style)

FFG never seemed especially woke when they were still producing RPGs. Nothing of theirs I ever read made me raise an eyebrow and they still seem to be publishing them so I guess that counts?

Quote from: S'mon;1139176Eh, the monster they created unsurprisingly turned on them. I'm pretty sure they realised it was a bad idea when she (Stacey) was Cancelling them.

Interestingly this year, she turned on GaryCon as well and announced a competing RPG convention the very same weekend as GaryCon was scheduled for. Then everything got cancelled, like a week before the show due to the Coronavirus. We then hosted a virtual convention online that featured almost seven hundred events and had over two thousand gamers registered to attend. It was successful, although not what we had originally envisioned. Stacey of course hosted an online convention as well. No clue how many events they had registered, or how many attended. I'm thinking a few dozen people attended that based on the post-con chatter on Fakebook, and other forums.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1065419Mindjammer is played by a lot of latent SJWs. They're the same crowd that idolize Iain Banks and Kim Stanley Robinson.

I actually like Mindjammer, it's a great game. Wasn't aware Sarah Newton had any sjw political preferences.

Dungeon Crawl Classics is drinking the Kool-Aid, as well: #BLM

https://goodman-games.com/blog/2020/06/03/imagine-better-worlds/

What a sad time this is.

Even Dungeon Crawl Classics is drinking the Woke Kool-Aid with #Black Lives Matter propaganda.

https://goodman-games.com/blog/2020/06/03/imagine-better-worlds/

Shame on you white folk for not caring about Black Lives.

What a sad time this is.

Which company can you count on to take your money and not bend the knee to the increasing demands of Wokeness?

Quote from: Aglondir;1065193In the last few years, they haven't done much: Champions Complete (which was good) and Fantasy Hero Complete (not so much.) Tbe rest of their output has been reprinting thier back catalog from previous editions (there's a great deal right now on Bundle of Holding, if this interests you) and a couple of Kickstarters.

Looked these up. Pardon me for sidetracking the thread, but what is going on in these covers?

(https://cdn.paizo.com/image/product/catalog/HER/HER2000_500.jpeg)
Smiling and setting off fire bolts in seemingly random directions. Seems a bit unhinged both psychologically and artistically.

(https://www.rpgnow.com/images/115/145469.jpg)
This is technically more competent, but what's up with all the smiling and laughing again? Are they high and partying on top of the dragon?

Quote from: 1989;1139490Even Dungeon Crawl Classics is drinking the Woke Kool-Aid with #Black Lives Matter propaganda.

https://goodman-games.com/blog/2020/06/03/imagine-better-worlds/

Shame on you white folk for not caring about Black Lives.

What a sad time this is.

Which company can you count on to take your money and not bend the knee to the increasing demands of Wokeness?

Very sad times.

In the first picture a deranged female supervillain is fighting a male superhero. Seems pretty standart stuff.

In the second somebody released a laughing gas spell or a trap or the dragon farted helium making everybody high pitched and hilarious. They are having a gay old time.

Also, im a fan of Iain Banks but dont idolise him. Are you saying he had sjw views or some such thing?
I only know of him as sci fi writer who was rather neat.

Quote from: S'mon;1139259https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40467-Frog-God-Games-is-Suing-Christopher-Helton-Price-amp-Dellorfano-too!&highlight=Stacey

What was the oucome of this?

Quote from: Aglondir;1139534What was the oucome of this?

No idea, in fact until re-reading that I'd forgotten the SJW swarm attack on Frog God was aimed at Bill Webb for drunkenly attempting to flirt with a (normal person) Paizo staffer.

Quote from: S'mon;1139565No idea, in fact until re-reading that I'd forgotten the SJW swarm attack on Frog God was aimed at Bill Webb for drunkenly attempting to flirt with a (normal person) Paizo staffer.

I'm quite interested in knowing how this panned out. What exactly led to the disappearance of the version with this cover?

I also did not believe at all that no virtue signalling was involved. These men (even older than me) are wiser than that. They are not that dumb. I smell male feminists. Sad.

I was also disappointed that Matt said it was "metal". What the hell? That is not metal. It's gender-dysmorphic feminist subversion.

And does anyone know for sure: did they change the pronouns?

I read that they changed the pronouns in that edition. Anybody confirm? Seems like almost nobody got a copy of this version.

Quote from: 1989;1139765I read that they changed the pronouns in that edition. Anybody confirm? Seems like almost nobody got a copy of this version.

The text seems to be taken verbatim from the 2nd printing, which uses a handful of "his or her", but it mostly avoids singular pronouns by either using plural nouns and agreeing pronouns (Fighters blah blah and their blah blah) or singular nouns ("when a character is hit, the amount of damage is deducted from hit points").

Quote from: YnasMidgard;1139860The text seems to be taken verbatim from the 2nd printing, which uses a handful of "his or her", but it mostly avoids singular pronouns by either using plural nouns and agreeing pronouns (Fighters blah blah and their blah blah) or singular nouns ("when a character is hit, the amount of damage is deducted from hit points").

Okay, that's good to know. Thanks.

I was actually doing some "research" recently on RPGs and pronouns: which use he, which use she, which use he or she, which use a mix of he and she, etc. The results were ... not quite what I expected ...

Quote from: Omega;1065187Thought Hero was still chugging along slowly but surely? ...?

There is a Hall of Champions (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/cc/28/hall-of-champions) content creator program now at DTRPG for HERO. You can publish for any version. A few new titles have been released under the program.

We (the fans) also have a nice little (unofficial) Discord (https://discord.gg/HcUJvJH) server chugging along...

Quote from: Snark Knight;1139471FFG never seemed especially woke when they were still producing RPGs. Nothing of theirs I ever read made me raise an eyebrow and they still seem to be publishing them so I guess that counts?

FFG is getting worse and worse. Their new Arkham Horror game has in the core a Black Marries Lesbian Pedophile as a PC, and one of the expansions has a "misgendered" PC. Theres likely more of this. But I stopped buying FFG stuff some time ago due to their other bad behavior. FFG sure isnt the same little comic book and burgeoning Game company I met at the very very start all those years ago.

Quote from: Omega;1140049FFG is getting worse and worse. Their new Arkham Horror game has in the core a Black Marries Lesbian Pedophile as a PC, and one of the expansions has a "misgendered" PC. Theres likely more of this. But I stopped buying FFG stuff some time ago due to their other bad behavior. FFG sure isnt the same little comic book and burgeoning Game company I met at the very very start all those years ago.

Good grief. Thats sounds awful.

I remember FFG from the 3e d20 era -- I had a few of their books.

I'd love to see a big ol' list.

Different categories: anti-woke, neutral, kowtowing, and SJW fanatic.

'cause there's a hell of a big difference between not bending the knee (yet) and actively fighting back.

Quote from: Mr_X;1140099I'd love to see a big ol' list.

Different categories: anti-woke, neutral, kowtowing, and SJW fanatic.

'cause there's a hell of a big difference between not bending the knee (yet) and actively fighting back.

I'll take a stab at a start, though my industry knowledge is miniscule compared to that of many people here:

SJW FANATIC

WotC (D&D)
Paizo (Pathfinder)
Green Ronin (Blue Rose)
Modiphius (Vampire: the Masquerade 5e)

BEND THE KNEE

Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics) #BLM
Frog God Games (Swords and Wizardry 3rd printing)

NEUTRAL

Palladium Books (Rifts, etc.)
Basic Fantasy RPG
Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game
Immersive Ink (Delving Deeper)
OSRIC (AD&D 1e retroclone)
For Gold and Glory (AD&D 2e retroclone)

ANTI-WOKE

Myfarog (not sure as I haven't actually read it)

Quote from: 1989;1139997Okay, that's good to know. Thanks.

I was actually doing some "research" recently on RPGs and pronouns: which use he, which use she, which use he or she, which use a mix of he and she, etc. The results were ... not quite what I expected ...

The use of female pronouns in rulebooks is something I find bizarre.  The fact is that most gamers are male.  If you think using male pronouns will alienate the female audience, then by using female pronouns you're just alienating the male audience instead, which is a larger audience.  Unless you think that using female pronouns doesn't marginalize male gamers.  If you think that, then you're saying that men are stronger than women and thus being sexist.  No matter which way you slice it, I don't understand how using exclusively female pronouns in rulebooks accomplishes anything.

Quote from: kidkaos2;1140127...I don't understand how using exclusively female pronouns in rulebooks accomplishes anything.

Its a rebellion against the establishment. Why should 'he' get all the fun? Also, I like the pronoun 'they', it seems more neutral to me and therefor the most inclusive.

Quote from: 1989;1140117I'll take a stab at a start, though my industry knowledge is miniscule compared to that of many people here:

SJW FANATIC

WotC (D&D)
Paizo (Pathfinder)
Green Ronin (Blue Rose)
Modiphius (Vampire: the Masquerade 5e)

BEND THE KNEE

Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics) #BLM
Frog God Games (Swords and Wizardry 3rd printing)

NEUTRAL

Palladium Books (Rifts, etc.)
Basic Fantasy RPG
Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game
Immersive Ink (Delving Deeper)
OSRIC (AD&D 1e retroclone)
For Gold and Glory (AD&D 2e retroclone)

ANTI-WOKE

Myfarog (not sure as I haven't actually read it)

I recommend sticking to the Neutrals there!
MYFAROG is actual White Nationalist, which is another breed of Woke - they're just as touchy as the SJWs when it comes to Wrongthink.

Quote from: 1989;1140117I'll take a stab at a start, though my industry knowledge is miniscule compared to that of many people here:

SJW FANATIC

WotC (D&D)
Paizo (Pathfinder)
Green Ronin (Blue Rose)
Modiphius (Vampire: the Masquerade 5e)

BEND THE KNEE

Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics) #BLM
Frog God Games (Swords and Wizardry 3rd printing)

NEUTRAL

Palladium Books (Rifts, etc.)
Basic Fantasy RPG
Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game
Immersive Ink (Delving Deeper)
OSRIC (AD&D 1e retroclone)
For Gold and Glory (AD&D 2e retroclone)

ANTI-WOKE

Myfarog (not sure as I haven't actually read it)

I would add Pinnacle as anti-woke.  I listened to an interview with Shane Hensley where he was asked about Roll20 support for Savage Worlds.  He replied saying he was not interested in working with Roll20 because of their refusal to support some Youtubers because they were white men.

I would add Necrotic Gnome/Old School Essentials to the Neutral list.  On the OSE Facebook page, someone posted a rainbow flag graphic and asked how OSE can be more inclusive, and Gavin Norman quickly shut down the post and said the group should be focused on gaming, not politics.  There has also not been any Black Lives Matter postings to the Old School Essentials Facebook page, unlike, say, the Dungeon Crawl Classics Facebook page.

You can add Genesis of Legend Publishing (https://genesisoflegend.com/) to the SJW Fanatic list. Their 'Circles of Power' is literally 'SJW - the Roleplaying Game'. They really are Woke As Fuck.

Autarch (ACKS) is Neutral.

Quote from: kidkaos2;1140147I would add Pinnacle as anti-woke.  I listened to an interview with Shane Hensley where he was asked about Roll20 support for Savage Worlds.  He replied saying he was not interested in working with Roll20 because of their refusal to support some Youtubers because they were white men.

  Interesting. I'd place Pinnacle solidly in Neutral, myself--they don't get involved in many issues, they have made a couple changes to their products that might seem like caving but were either very minor or had other rationales, and they don't seem to have contempt for fans who think differently.

  Troll Lord Games also belongs in the Neutral category. Pelgrane is decidedly Woke, and Chaosium seems to be trending such.

Didn't Deadlands get basically ruined in the name of bending the knee?

Quote from: LiferGamer;1140171Didn't Deadlands get basically ruined in the name of bending the knee?

   I'm not a Deadlands fan (I follow Savage Worlds, but not Deadlands per se), so I don't know if the changes would qualify as 'ruining' it or not. It could be taken as bending the knee, but it could also be taken as 'this setting element isn't working out the way we planned, so let's change it.' Shane's public statement said he wasn't expecting much change from the critics, and while that might have been posturing, it does seem to have been borne out by the general reaction on TBP, which has been largely "Yeah, yeah, but you've still got to account for 20 years of 'doing harm'!"

Quote from: 1989;1140117BEND THE KNEE

Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics) #BLM

   Have they done anything more than repost that one piece of BLM art on their blog? I tend to reserve 'bend the knee' for companies that are a bit more groveling and contemptuous of the non-woke customer base. And unlike Pinnacle, this is not special pleading on my part--DCC is one of the few games where the advertising copy actively repulsed me. :)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1140169Interesting. I'd place Pinnacle solidly in Neutral, myself--they don't get involved in many issues, they have made a couple changes to their products that might seem like caving but were either very minor or had other rationales, and they don't seem to have contempt for fans who think differently.

With Pinnacle I recall some brouhaha over the science fiction companion covert art. But it was a fairly minor change and I think their rational was to make the woman in it seem more like a reflective commander. I feel like Pinnacle is fairly progressive, but they just don't ham fist shove it into their products. Or maybe they're just a lot better at public relations and can explain design decisions without talking down to their customer base.

Looks like Schwalb Entertainment(Shadow of the Demon Lord) bent the knee:
https://schwalbentertainment.com/2020/06/06/black-lives-matter/ (https://schwalbentertainment.com/2020/06/06/black-lives-matter/)

Updated with some more suggestions:

SJW FANATIC

WotC (D&D)
Paizo (Pathfinder)
Green Ronin (Blue Rose)
Modiphius (Vampire: the Masquerade 5e)
Genesis of Legend Publishing (Circles of Power)
Pelgrane Press (Dying Earth, Trail of Cthulhu)

BEND THE KNEE

Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics) #BLM
Frog God Games (Swords and Wizardry 3rd printing)

NEUTRAL

Palladium Books (Rifts, etc.)
Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game
Immersive Ink (Delving Deeper)
OSRIC (AD&D 1e retroclone)
For Gold and Glory (AD&D 2e retroclone)
Autarch (Adventurer Conqueror King)
Troll Lord Games (Castles and Crusades)
Necrotic Gnome (Old School Essentials)

ANTI-WOKE

Myfarog (not sure as I haven't actually read it)


Edit: Removed Basic Fantasy RPG (He found the "Ditch WotC" video distasteful in it's stated opinion of WotC. Does that mean he agrees with WotC?)

Edited: Put OSE in neutral.

Quote from: 1989;1140197Updated with some more suggestions:

Edit: Removed Basic Fantasy RPG (He found the "Ditch WotC" video distasteful in it's stated opinion of WotC. Does that mean he agrees with WotC?)

Chris is liberal, but I don't think he wants politics anywhere near his gaming.

Quote from: 1989;1140197Updated with some more suggestions:

SJW FANATIC

WotC (D&D)
Paizo (Pathfinder)
Green Ronin (Blue Rose)
Modiphius (Vampire: the Masquerade 5e)
Genesis of Legend Publishing (Circles of Power)
Pelgrane Press (Dying Earth, Trail of Cthulhu)

BEND THE KNEE

Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics) #BLM
Frog God Games (Swords and Wizardry 3rd printing)

NEUTRAL

Palladium Books (Rifts, etc.)
Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game
Immersive Ink (Delving Deeper)
OSRIC (AD&D 1e retroclone)
For Gold and Glory (AD&D 2e retroclone)
Autarch (Adventurer Conqueror King)
Troll Lord Games (Castles and Crusades)

ANTI-WOKE

Myfarog (not sure as I haven't actually read it)
Necrotic Gnome (Old School Essentials)

Edit: Removed Basic Fantasy RPG (He found the "Ditch WotC" video distasteful in it's stated opinion of WotC. Does that mean he agrees with WotC?)

Is Gavan (Necrotic Gnome) anti-woke? I'd have thought him neutral. Of all the OSR publishers I've probably interacted with him the most online and he seems to mostly just avoid the nonsense.

Quote from: SavageSchemer;1140247Is Gavan (Necrotic Gnome) anti-woke? I'd have thought him neutral. Of all the OSR publishers I've probably interacted with him the most online and he seems to mostly just avoid the nonsense.

Yeah, I don't see Necrotic Gnome as anti-woke.  I mentioned upthread that he shut down a post to the OSE Facebook group that wanted to bring more diversity to OSE, but I see it as more of a "please stay focused on gaming" attitude than anything else. Gavan and Chris Gonnerman of Basic Fantasy seem to have the same outlook.  They're not woke in their attitudes towards gaming, and they're not anti-woke, they just want to focus on gaming, without outside distractions of any political persuasion.  And that's fine with me.

I would think Steve Jackson Games is neutral and whoever is producing World of Darkness now is way woke.

Add Evil Hat and Onyx Path to the woke list.

SJW FANATIC

WotC (D&D)
Paizo (Pathfinder)
Green Ronin (Blue Rose)
Modiphius (Vampire: the Masquerade 5e)
Genesis of Legend Publishing (Circles of Power)
Pelgrane Press (Dying Earth, Trail of Cthulhu)
Onyx Path (WoD)
Evil Hat (Fate) full-on BLM Kool-Aid**

BEND THE KNEE

Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics) #BLM
Frog God Games (Swords and Wizardry 3rd printing)

NEUTRAL

Palladium Books (Rifts, etc.)
Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game
Immersive Ink (Delving Deeper)
OSRIC (AD&D 1e retroclone)
For Gold and Glory (AD&D 2e retroclone)
Autarch (Adventurer Conqueror King)
Troll Lord Games (Castles and Crusades)
Necrotic Gnome (Old School Essentials)
SJG (GURPS)

ANTI-WOKE

Myfarog (not sure as I haven't actually read it)

Edit:

*I just had to post this from Evil Hat:

"Every day our Black customers, artists, designers, and industry colleagues face the fear of being killed by those sworn to protect and serve. A fear that any random traffic stop, trip to the store, or outing to the park can suddenly turn lethal. They face systemic oppression, financial discrimination, reduced opportunity, and a ruling white society poisoned by hundreds of years of bigotry."

SJG's bent knee as of a year ago to the moral guardians and changed art in the TFT reprint.

Quote from: Omega;1140309SJG's bent knee as of a year ago to the moral guardians and changed art in the TFT reprint.

Can I get a link for that? (or some more explanation)

I'd change the category names to Woke, Grovel, Just Wanna Grill for God's sake, and Based.

Quote from: Aglondir;1065196Sine Nomine isn't a major publishing house, but both the quantity and quality seem like it. So far he's avoided the Eye of Sjauron.

I recall them putting out a statement that said something to the effect that right wingers should f off and not play their game (SWN), but I can't find anything about it now. It was probably around 2016.

Quote from: Mjollnir;1140315I recall them putting out a statement that said something to the effect that right wingers should f off and not play their game (SWN), but I can't find anything about it now. It was probably around 2016.

That doesn't sound like Kevin Crawford at all. Are you maybe thinking of Posthuman Studios (Eclipse Phase) telling everyone who believes in men's rights to go away and not buy their game?

Quote from: Brand55;1140319That doesn't sound like Kevin Crawford at all. Are you maybe thinking of Posthuman Studios (Eclipse Phase) telling everyone who believes in men's rights to go away and not buy their game?

You're right, it was Posthuman Studios and Eclipse Phase. My mistake.

https://eclipsephase.com/regarding-mras

Quote from: 1989;1140299*I just had to post this from Evil Hat:

"Every day our Black customers, artists, designers, and industry colleagues face the fear of being killed by those sworn to protect and serve. A fear that any random traffic stop, trip to the store, or outing to the park can suddenly turn lethal. They face systemic oppression, financial discrimination, reduced opportunity, and a ruling white society poisoned by hundreds of years of bigotry."

Blinks. Did they really go that moronic?

Quote from: Jason Coplen;1140333Blinks. Did they really go that moronic?

I think answering you would get us thoroughly into the political-not-RPG territory that the Pundit would like us to avoid.

SJW FANATIC

WotC (D&D)
Paizo (Pathfinder)
Green Ronin (Blue Rose)
Modiphius (Vampire: the Masquerade 5e)
Genesis of Legend Publishing (Circles of Power)
Pelgrane Press (Dying Earth, Trail of Cthulhu)
Onyx Path (WoD)
Evil Hat (Fate) full-on BLM Kool-Aid**
Posthuman Studios (Eclipse Phase)

BEND THE KNEE

Goodman Games (Dungeon Crawl Classics) #BLM
Frog God Games (Swords and Wizardry 3rd printing)

NEUTRAL

Palladium Books (Rifts, etc.)
Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game
Immersive Ink (Delving Deeper)
OSRIC (AD&D 1e retroclone)
For Gold and Glory (AD&D 2e retroclone)
Autarch (Adventurer Conqueror King)
Troll Lord Games (Castles and Crusades)
Necrotic Gnome (Old School Essentials)
SJG (GURPS)

ANTI-WOKE

Myfarog (not sure as I haven't actually read it)

Edit:

Added Posthuman Studios

Quote from: Jason Coplen;1140333Blinks. Did they really go that moronic?

When Google Groups was a thing the Fate group was a pretty SJW place. I remember when Groups was shutting down there were concerns over migrating to MeWe or some other platform because it allowed "right wingers" to exist there. Fate is a game that draws in SJW's more than your normal RPG. I don't recall if Fred himself posted SJW content in the group or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Asshat (oops, evilhat) productions has no problem making money off of HP Lovecraft while simultaneously shitting all over him for their terrible Power Rangers/Terminator/Cthulu Mashup.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1140355Asshat (oops, evilhat) productions has no problem making money off of HP Lovecraft while simultaneously shitting all over him for their terrible Power Rangers/Terminator/Cthulu Mashup.

Yep, just as WotC has no trouble making money off the "racist" legacy of Gary Gygax et al.

Do as we say, not as we do.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1140173DCC is one of the few games where the advertising copy actively repulsed me. :)

What about the advertising copy put you off?  I have no opinion one way or the other about the game itself, I'm just curious.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1140376What about the advertising copy put you off?  I have no opinion one way or the other about the game itself, I'm just curious.

The "You're not a hero" opening and the following text. My sympathies are decidedly with the heroic side of fantasy; the 'mercenaries and ne'er-do-wells' so beloved by DCC and the OSR aren't my cup of tea. Nothing against those who prefer that approach, but it's not to my tastes.

I'm finding this list very helpful.

Quote from: S'mon;1140141I recommend sticking to the Neutrals there!
MYFAROG is actual White Nationalist

I'd hate to see people like pundit and venger mixed in with things like RaHoWa.  Maybe there should be need a 5th category for stuff that's actually racist.

Quote from: 1989;1140359Yep, just as WotC has no trouble making money off the "racist" legacy of Gary Gygax et al.

Pretty sure WOTC never called Gary Gygax a racist.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140455Pretty sure WOTC never called Gary Gygax a racist.

No, but I don't recall them ever calling out those who did, either.

Not that, for myself, I think it's bad for a company to shut up and stay out of political disputes, but certain silences are more telling than others (as the cancel ghouls themselves would no doubt insist).

It's not even silence.

They're tacitly affirming those who did/do.

And Mistwell fucking knows it.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140455Pretty sure WOTC never called Gary Gygax a racist.

If you go over to dmsguild.com, there are plenty of titles that have the "sorry 'bout this old racism" disclaimer and list Gary Gygax as the sole author.  If they didn't want to say Gygax et al were racist/prejudiced, they're sending mixed signals.

Sure, because they want your money and the SJW's money.

What I'm saying here is that the legacy of Gary Gygax is Dungeons and Dragons. WotC have now put disclaimers on all of that stuff. It's disingenuous to pretend one cannot see this point.

Quote from: 1989;1140508What I'm saying here is that the legacy of Gary Gygax is Dungeons and Dragons. WotC have now put disclaimers on all of that stuff. It's disingenuous to pretend one cannot see this point.

This essentially then means that modern D&D is NOT D&D, it's a game loosely based on D&D. It's no more D&D than WoD is D&D.

Quote from: Haffrung;1065612Take political correctness too far?



It's not massive. Progressive activists make up 8 per cent of Americans, and given the demographics of the hobby, maybe 25 per cent of active tabletop gamers. They're just extremely vocal (and organized) on social media. The great majority of gamers don't give a shit about any of this stuff. The question is whether publishers have the courage to aim their products at the silent majority, or whether they succumb to the smear campaigns and brigading of a zealous minority.

It's only 8% of the population, but it's 100% of the Cathedral.

I was going to pick up Mothership by Tuesday Night Games, but poking around their website, they're all about the Burn Loot Murder virtue signalling so that's cash saved to be spent elsewhere. Such a shame.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1140476No, but I don't recall them ever calling out those who did, either.

REALLY not their job to police the Internet for assholes.

I think some people confuse "Jeremy Crawford calls out X" with "WOTC calls out X". Jeremy is the face of their rules stuff, but he's not with the PR or Marketing team of WOTC. They have people for that, they post a lot, and they don't mention politics much. Message boards make a lot out of Crawford political tweets, but I don't think the general D&D fan population at large sees them or cares about them much.

Quote from: Mistwell;1140738REALLY not their job to police the Internet for assholes.

Police the Internet for a-holes in general, no. Defend the creator of their core product and founder of the hobby from unmerited accusations? One would think they could spare at least a little marketing time and effort. Strikes me as supremely ungrateful, if nothing else.

QuoteI think some people confuse "Jeremy Crawford calls out X" with "WOTC calls out X".

Cancel culture in general works on the principle that the public statements and behaviour of a company's employees should be taken to amount to, or at least reflect, the position of the company. Those who espouse that principle shouldn't get to exempt themselves from it when it goes against them.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1140741Defend the creator of their core product and founder of the hobby from unmerited accusations?

What's unmerited? The claims I've seen boil down to "these materials use a number of tropes that were accepted at the time but are now considered racist", which makes sense to me.

QuoteWe recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website, does not reflect the values of the Dungeon & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end.

Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/dd-wizards-of-the-coast-adds-disclaimer-to-legacy-content.html

OK, the comma after "website" is unmerited, I'd expect better from a professional editor. But the rest of that is true, and I'm glad that they're keeping the content available.

Quote from: Naburimannu;1140778What's unmerited? The claims I've seen boil down to "these materials use a number of tropes that were accepted at the time but are now considered racist", which makes sense to me.



Source: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/dd-wizards-of-the-coast-adds-disclaimer-to-legacy-content.html

OK, the comma after "website" is unmerited, I'd expect better from a professional editor. But the rest of that is true, and I'm glad that they're keeping the content available.

It's been decades since I read my AD&D books, so I am having trouble with remembering any specific examples of "ethnic, racial and gender prejudice." Other than the prostitute tables and the use of the pronoun "he" as generic, perhaps. Can you provide examples?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1140169[...] and Chaosium seems to be trending such.

"Seems" to be.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/11490-all-the-books-printed-in-china-why-so-expensive/

Quote from: Aglondir;1140829It's been decades since I read my AD&D books, so I am having trouble with remembering any specific examples of "ethnic, racial and gender prejudice." Other than the prostitute tables and the use of the pronoun "he" as generic, perhaps. Can you provide examples?

Actually, AD&D1E used "he or she" while AD&D2E used only "he". I was doing some research on that this week. I was surprised.

Quote from: Naburimannu;1140778What's unmerited? The claims I've seen boil down to "these materials use a number of tropes that were accepted at the time but are now considered racist", which makes sense to me.

And yet that disclaimer doesn't name the pieces so accused, doesn't explain exactly what offensive tropes they specifically contain, imputes unfalsifiable motives to their creators for using those tropes, contains no arguments for why such tropes should now be thought offensive, and won't even firmly state that the content DOES contain such offensiveness -- note the fatal weasel word "may". That's what I mean by "unmerited".

If they really believe certain items contain unconscionable content, they should pull those items altogether. That they haven't suggests this is merely another self-protective greengrocer's sign.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1140355Asshat (oops, evilhat) productions has no problem making money off of HP Lovecraft while simultaneously shitting all over him for their terrible Power Rangers/Terminator/Cthulu Mashup.

I still got the un-redacted Dresden Files rpg from them, before someone decides it should have a #metoo anti-sexism disclaimer or cleanup.

Quote from: NaburimannuWhat's unmerited? The claims I've seen boil down to "these materials use a number of tropes that were accepted at the time but are now considered racist", which makes sense to me.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1141609And yet that disclaimer doesn't name the pieces so accused, doesn't explain exactly what offensive tropes they specifically contain, imputes unfalsifiable motives to their creators for using those tropes, contains no arguments for why such tropes should now be thought offensive, and won't even firmly state that the content DOES contain such offensiveness -- note the fatal weasel word "may". That's what I mean by "unmerited".

If they really believe certain items contain unconscionable content, they should pull those items altogether. That they haven't suggests this is merely another self-protective greengrocer's sign.

I don't think items should be pulled if they have any racist content. If a work does genuinely have racist content, a more specific disclaimer would be better, but censoring them to pretend that they never existed is worse.

I agree that the current disclaimer is a token gesture full of weasel words. However, that also means it's not a real accusation against the older edition material or the various authors.

Quote from: Godfather Punk;1141610I still got the un-redacted Dresden Files rpg from them, before someone decides it should have a #metoo anti-sexism disclaimer or cleanup.

Too late. The Dresden Files RPG has had that baked-in right from the start. Check out the in-character banter on pg. 96 of Your Story where Billy complains about sexy women in game art (apparently the Evil Hat version of Georgia is a feminist who has been educating him about this stuff). That's basically their disclaimer saying, "We are using this art to be true to the source material, but we don't have to like it."

So a bit like I use their books for rules reference and the campaign world, but I can ignore those woke in-character banter pieces :)

What about Monte Cook Games?

I know Monte Cook is pretty liberal, but I've never read Numenéra and I don't know if his socio-political views have influenced his products.

Quote from: Greywolf76;1142539What about Monte Cook Games?

I know Monte Cook is pretty liberal, but I've never read Numenéra and I don't know if his socio-political views have influenced his products.

Monte Cook Games is the company that put out the "Required Reading" RPG sourcebook on consent, complete with the cringeworthy consent forms to hand out to your players.

Quote from: Trond;1139502Looked these up. Pardon me for sidetracking the thread, but what is going on in these covers?

LOL. You should be happy you got any cover art at all!



[ATTACH=CONFIG]4735[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Aglondir;1142872LOL. You should be happy you got any cover art at all!



[ATTACH=CONFIG]4735[/ATTACH]

That was arguably a stylistic choice. Look to the mid to late 5E era (Tuala Morn, Enchanted Items, Stronghold, Masterminds & Madmen, Predators, etc.) for examples of when they were obviously out of options. :)

Quote from: Orphan81;1142544Monte Cook Games is the company that put out the "Required Reading" RPG sourcebook on consent, complete with the cringeworthy consent forms to hand out to your players.

what is a consent form ?

Quote from: Cigalazade;1142879what is a consent form ?

Read and weep

http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2019/09/one-of-many.html (http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2019/09/one-of-many.html)

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142880Read and weep

http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2019/09/one-of-many.html (http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2019/09/one-of-many.html)

Well, alright then. I didn't know people needed forms for adult communication. "Hey I am not comfortable with X" "Sorry about that, we won't discuss X." Done. That's it.

Some people must enjoy this kind of bureaucratization of basic interactions.

Quote from: Cigalazade;1142882Well, alright then. I didn't know people needed forms for adult communication. "Hey I am not comfortable with X" "Sorry about that, we won't discuss X." Done. That's it.

Some people must enjoy this kind of bureaucratization of basic interactions.

We've always handled such things at session zero. But talking like adults isn't for SJWs

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142884We've always handled such things at session zero. But talking like adults isn't for SJWs

Umm, these are meant to be used at session zero?
I woudn't plan to give out a consent form, but I might skim over one to see "Hmm, am I expecting to hit any of these in my campaign? That's a good thing to mention at session zero and make sure nobody objects to."
Or, if I have kids in the mix, omit from the campaign completely.

And if I were playing longer-term with some of my coworkers, I could see some of them feeling uncomfortable bringing up what they object to in front of others and wanting to communicate indirectly, for which the forms might be convenient, so - assuming I have to go through background rigamarole and not just drop them in together and let it work out in play - "Hey, let's have a "session zero" this week to figure out expectations, make sure the world is going to be fun enough for everyone, & draw some connections between your characters. We can talk then about anything you want to see *or want to avoid* in the campaign; if you want to let me know in advance, XYZ is a checklist of the latter."

Quote from: Naburimannu;1142913Umm, these are meant to be used at session zero?
I woudn't plan to give out a consent form, but I might skim over one to see "Hmm, am I expecting to hit any of these in my campaign? That's a good thing to mention at session zero and make sure nobody objects to."
Or, if I have kids in the mix, omit from the campaign completely.

And if I were playing longer-term with some of my coworkers, I could see some of them feeling uncomfortable bringing up what they object to in front of others and wanting to communicate indirectly, for which the forms might be convenient, so - assuming I have to go through background rigamarole and not just drop them in together and let it work out in play - "Hey, let's have a "session zero" this week to figure out expectations, make sure the world is going to be fun enough for everyone, & draw some connections between your characters. We can talk then about anything you want to see *or want to avoid* in the campaign; if you want to let me know in advance, XYZ is a checklist of the latter."

It seems to me that many of the posters here only play with long-established groups and only accept new blood that has been vetted by others they trust. In such situations, any kind of material checklist is superfluous as they've already informally gone over it time and again with their players. Sadly, they can't see that not everyone plays under such conditions at all times, and if playing with (near) strangers, something like the consents can actually cut some bullshit and save time so you can get to murdering and robbing mutherfuckers for their loot (or not, depending on group and game).

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1142880Read and weep

http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2019/09/one-of-many.html (http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2019/09/one-of-many.html)

My only phobia is against shit like this.

That's Pathetic.

Golden rule... Don't play with kids, or adults with the minds of kids.

Simple...

Quote from: The Exploited.;1142916My only phobia is against shit like this.

That's Pathetic.

Golden rule... Don't play with kids, or adults with the minds of kids.

Simple...

You can dial it up or down to your audience, my son and his friends joined years ago, and I used the show Naruto (which they were into at the time) as a guideline for how explicit I went with themes.

Edit: Kids have more grit than some of these (technically) adults.

What gets me with these shrinking violet types, assuming D&D or one of its 'descendants' you've got races and groups built-in to the system that are more brutal than the mongols (but fortunately less organized) literal demon and devil worshipers, and evil gawds that want you dead.

Where does the 'just sunshine and rainbows mindset' come in?   Where did you THINK half-orcs came from?  You saw the listing for Warlock, right?  These are great worlds for adventure, but I wouldn't want to actually live in them.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1140172I'm not a Deadlands fan (I follow Savage Worlds, but not Deadlands per se), so I don't know if the changes would qualify as 'ruining' it or not. It could be taken as bending the knee, but it could also be taken as 'this setting element isn't working out the way we planned, so let's change it.' Shane's public statement said he wasn't expecting much change from the critics, and while that might have been posturing, it does seem to have been borne out by the general reaction on TBP, which has been largely "Yeah, yeah, but you've still got to account for 20 years of 'doing harm'!"

I think we still have to wait to see how the changes play out over time as to if the changes help or harm Deadlands. I see the change as an opportunity to not have the GMs jump through hoops in accommodating players in the same posse that wanted to play characters from different sides of the Civil War who ought to have been shooting at each other. The original Deadlands timeline also did a lot of whitewashing over race relations in the setting. Like, somehow the Reckoners had mace race relations better. The new timeline still does that, but to a lesser degree it seems, and Pinnacle has stated they've done this to make it easier for minority (race and sex) players to get into the game. They're up front about that, and nothing stops you from including elements of Jim Crow at your personal table, which I do.

With the creators I get the feeling that a lot of their play time comes from playing at conventions, and there one needs to take more care with how the game plays with strangers than people you have as personal friends.

I will never use the consent form, x-card, rewind stand on my head or whatever new tools. I talk it out with my players and/or DM.

What gets me is how many woke gamers assume in bad faith that your evil for not using any of them. If player XYZ is afraid of Spiders either tell the DM at session Zero. Refuse to say anything while then joining a campaign where the main enemies are Drow and Lolth. I also don't like the tools because it removes responsibility from the player. If one has severe Arachnophobia one has no business joining the above campaigm imo.

Quote from: Aglondir;1139534What was the oucome of this?

I don't know if this is directly related by Stacy's Twitter is now officially dead.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StacyRex

I have no idea why, but I think she nuked it a few weeks ago. Maybe she realized that Twitter as a whole is poisonous. Maybe she's trying to avoid discovery. Maybe she's applying for a job and realized that social media can leave a trail that is likely to do much more harm than good.

I haven't heard of anything else on this front for a while. If the parties decided to settle they all may have just decided to stay 100% quiet on this matter than risk stirring up another fight on the internet.

Quote from: Naburimannu;1142913Umm, these are meant to be used at session zero?
I woudn't plan to give out a consent form, but I might skim over one to see "Hmm, am I expecting to hit any of these in my campaign? That's a good thing to mention at session zero and make sure nobody objects to."
Or, if I have kids in the mix, omit from the campaign completely.

And if I were playing longer-term with some of my coworkers, I could see some of them feeling uncomfortable bringing up what they object to in front of others and wanting to communicate indirectly, for which the forms might be convenient, so - assuming I have to go through background rigamarole and not just drop them in together and let it work out in play - "Hey, let's have a "session zero" this week to figure out expectations, make sure the world is going to be fun enough for everyone, & draw some connections between your characters. We can talk then about anything you want to see *or want to avoid* in the campaign; if you want to let me know in advance, XYZ is a checklist of the latter."

Nope, it's not my job to go guessing what others might feel uncomfortable with. It's the player responsibility to bring it up to me as the GM, and since when has it been ordained they do it in front of the rest of the group? They HAVE to talk to me, and since they talking to me is the same (in regards to feeling uncomfortable speaking in front of others) as handling me a consent form fuck that shit, you talk like adults.

If I have kids in the table of course lots of shit is gonna get yeeted.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1142915It seems to me that many of the posters here only play with long-established groups and only accept new blood that has been vetted by others they trust. In such situations, any kind of material checklist is superfluous as they've already informally gone over it time and again with their players. Sadly, they can't see that not everyone plays under such conditions at all times, and if playing with (near) strangers, something like the consents can actually cut some bullshit and save time so you can get to murdering and robbing mutherfuckers for their loot (or not, depending on group and game).

Yeah, sure, it must be that and not the pre selecting of mature people (not danger hairs). My current GM and Gaming group had NEVER played together before, but we all knew none of us was a woke cultist.

I don't care what YOU choose to do on your table, I do care what your fellow travelers want to impose on me in gaming stores, conventions, online apps, etc.

Largely due to limited budget I would say. Easy to riff on that theme without the need for an actual artist..

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1142876That was arguably a stylistic choice. Look to the mid to late 5E era (Tuala Morn, Enchanted Items, Stronghold, Masterminds & Madmen, Predators, etc.) for examples of when they were obviously out of options. :)

Largely due to limited budget I would say. Easy to riff on that theme without the need for an actual artist..

Quote from: shuddemell;1143192Largely due to limited budget I would say. Easy to riff on that theme without the need for an actual artist..

   I'd agree if it weren't that the 6E genre books and Champions supplements had full cover illustrations, and the interior of the 6E core was stuffed to the brim with full-color art.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1143201I'd agree if it weren't that the 6E genre books and Champions supplements had full cover illustrations, and the interior of the 6E core was stuffed to the brim with full-color art.

That was about the time they sold the Champions Universe IP to Cypher for a quick cash infusion. Guess where that cash went?

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1143201I'd agree if it weren't that the 6E genre books and Champions supplements had full cover illustrations, and the interior of the 6E core was stuffed to the brim with full-color art.

Based on what I heard on the Hero forums, et al. Some of those were last hurrahs. They put full color art in some things, as they hoped would be sellers like they were in the past, and it was an attempt to throw all their eggs in one basket in the hopes of a revival. Honestly, as big a fan of Hero System as I am, I don't really think, in general, that there is much of a market for such a detail oriented game as it is. You really have to want to put in the work to run Hero, and as the crowd at which this hobby is aimed becomes more and more casual, detail loses. I also don't really think there needs to be another edition of Hero. It probably peaked for most around FRED, and while I like 6th fine, and the changes made were overall good, that there is anywhere for this system to go in the modern market. I can continue to run my Hero games with 6ed or FRED without ever feeling the need for another such system. I only spend money on Hero to keep the life support running, but having no expectation of a resurgence.

Quote from: shuddemell;1143204Based on what I heard on the Hero forums, et al. Some of those were last hurrahs. They put full color art in some things, as they hoped would be sellers like they were in the past, and it was an attempt to throw all their eggs in one basket in the hopes of a revival. Honestly, as big a fan of Hero System as I am, I don't really think, in general, that there is much of a market for such a detail oriented game as it is. You really have to want to put in the work to run Hero, and as the crowd at which this hobby is aimed becomes more and more casual, detail loses. I also don't really think there needs to be another edition of Hero. It probably peaked for most around FRED, and while I like 6th fine, and the changes made were overall good, that there is anywhere for this system to go in the modern market. I can continue to run my Hero games with 6ed or FRED without ever feeling the need for another such system. I only spend money on Hero to keep the life support running, but having no expectation of a resurgence.

  Agreed on all points; I think HERO has lost ground due to the combination of the graying of the hobby and the shift to more 'stream-friendly' games. The upside is that with the rise of PDFs and PoD, the system can be kept available near-indefinitely, and the opening up of licensing, the Hall of Champions, and other venues gives fans plenty of ways to share content. It's probably never going to be a player in the industry again barring major change, but it can sustain itself as a hobbyist's game for the foreseeable future.

Quote from: Dracones;1140350When Google Groups was a thing the Fate group was a pretty SJW place. I remember when Groups was shutting down there were concerns over migrating to MeWe or some other platform because it allowed "right wingers" to exist there. Fate is a game that draws in SJW's more than your normal RPG. I don't recall if Fred himself posted SJW content in the group or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I got off of MeWe before Christmas of last year, becuase of the kind of data collection practices they have put into place over there, not to mention the "walled gardens". Made it too hard to keep track of the troublemakers who are there just for the sake of messing with other people.

I just logged in here for the first time in forever to mock everyone who lists Palladium as "neutral." The central settings of Rifts in North America positions scholars, scientists, and a diverse group of heroes as the good guys, and American style fascists, complete with skull-themed Neo-Nazi armor as the bad guys. The "good guys" in Rifts are social justice warriors. I have trouble understanding how anyone fails to get that.

Quote from: pawsplay;1143530I just logged in here for the first time in forever to mock everyone who lists Palladium as "neutral." The central settings of Rifts in North America positions scholars, scientists, and a diverse group of heroes as the good guys, and American style fascists, complete with skull-themed Neo-Nazi armor as the bad guys. The "good guys" in Rifts are social justice warriors. I have trouble understanding how anyone fails to get that.

[video=youtube;hn1VxaMEjRU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU[/youtube]

Yes but is your average coalition soldier truly evil or wrong in that setting?  Yes, the ruling elite are EVIL BASTARDS, hands down.  It's an ugly thing, but without the coalition, does humanity really have as good a long-term survival chance?  They're good guys from an us-vs-them survival of the species standpoint - I'll pick humanity over anyone else thank you very much.

Now what they ARE is authoritarians, and well, FUCK authoritarians, good intentions or not.  "Because I said so" sucked when we were kids, and sucks harder the higher up it goes.  

Hell - I showed up to a Heroes Unlimited game with a time-displaced Coalition Soldier, a classic Dead-boy.  It was the Punisher turned up to 11, with a lot of genuine compassion for the regular humans in this mad world.  He was just a grunt, so barely literate, could maintain his gear somewhat, but NEEDED the other PCs who were starting to polish off some of the propaganda damage.  (sadly, the campaign didn't last).

It's like I argued again with my wife the other day about Dragon Age Origins - the Templars are totally right to keep a close eye on the mages - harsh?  Yes.  BUT they aren't burning everyone with a talent for magery at the stake, they're just trying to keep them reigned in.

These are great questions in general, and great drama for RPGs... One of the things I liked about RIFTS is you could easily go heavy shades of grey turn up or down the Black and White (shit, can I use that these days?  :) ) err - binary Good and Evil (wait... is that cool? :D)

Quote from: sureshot;1142946If one has severe Arachnophobia one has no business joining the above campaigm imo.

Arachnophobia is the word for "afraid of spiders".

There is no word for "afraid of imaginary spiders"; that is breaking ground in the field of being a pussy.

Scared of your own imagination. Scared to have a thought. Afraid to pretend.

Quote from: pawsplay;1143530I just logged in here for the first time in forever to mock everyone who lists Palladium as "neutral." The central settings of Rifts in North America positions scholars, scientists, and a diverse group of heroes as the good guys, and American style fascists, complete with skull-themed Neo-Nazi armor as the bad guys. The "good guys" in Rifts are social justice warriors. I have trouble understanding how anyone fails to get that.

uh...whut?

Sorry kid. Thats not Rifts.

Quote from: Mr_X;1143624Arachnophobia is the word for "afraid of spiders".

There is no word for "afraid of imaginary spiders"; that is breaking ground in the field of being a pussy.

Scared of your own imagination. Scared to have a thought. Afraid to pretend.

I can understand and respect the fear in place of an actual real spider. Being afraid of a drawing is well imo screwed up in the head.

It's the same way gamers will accuse the hobby of gatekeeping because of one bad experience. Not 3-4 one bad experience so proof positive they are being kept out of the hobby.

My wife is an arachnophobe.  I had a giant rubber spider as the big bad; she had to sit out of sight to play, but didn't try to ruin anyone elses fun.

Quote from: sureshot;1143644I can understand and respect the fear in place of an actual real spider. Being afraid of a drawing is well imo screwed up in the head.

It's the same way gamers will accuse the hobby of gatekeeping because of one bad experience. Not 3-4 one bad experience so proof positive they are being kept out of the hobby.

Um... with many cases of a phobia even drawn images can set it off. Theres levels of this like alot of other odd conditions.

I am a little dubious of someone freaking at just a description. But can imagine a severe case where even that might set it off. Or at least a concern it might set it off. I play with at least one player who has a severe phobia. I also know a couple of players with severe aversions rather than phobias.

At a guess theres a mental difference between just saying. "you are attacked by a giant spider" and "you are attacked by an eight legged horror as large as a dog with glistening red carapace and dagger-like fangs dripping venom, its bulbous abdomen bobbing as it skitters towards you."

Arachnophobia it is one thing I don't have it yet I am not a fan of either. It's when a person suffers from a phobia, joins a game with the object or creature of their phobia as the many enemies. While then demanding the entire campaign be re-written from the ground up to accommodate them. Then accuse the players and or DM for being bad people because they are comfortable with the object of their phobia.

I don't throw out or refuse players for having a phobia. I just expect to be told of it as a common courtesy so that I can minimize the impact. Or the say it's Arachnophobia and it's a minor or one time element in the game I can change it. If it's major element or the BBEG at the end of the campaign then one is shit out of luck as the anything with Spiders stays in. No graphic imagery of a Spider to help the person with a phobia. I am not re-writing an entire campaign from the ground up for one person either.

Quote from: sureshot;1143797I don't throw out or refuse players for having a phobia. I just expect to be told of it as a common courtesy so that I can minimize the impact.

Exactly, it is the players' duty to bring these topics up, beforehand, so that a DM can do an informed decision about it.
It's not the DM's duty to pre-emptively remove elements from a campaign just-in-case, or to change a campaign around at a moments notice because someone didn't bring up their phobias.

Quote from: pawsplay;1143530I just logged in here for the first time in forever to mock everyone who lists Palladium as "neutral." The central settings of Rifts in North America positions scholars, scientists, and a diverse group of heroes as the good guys, and American style fascists, complete with skull-themed Neo-Nazi armor as the bad guys. The "good guys" in Rifts are social justice warriors. I have trouble understanding how anyone fails to get that.

I'm guessing you've never met, much less had lengthy conversations over lunch or dinner with Kevin Seimbedia. I have so I feel quite confident telling you that you are grossly mistaken.

The Coalition States are national socialists who burned books, particularly history books that contradict the party line, and use media propaganda to keep the masses in line. Disseminating "wrongthink" is a literal death sentence.

The Coalition States also completely disarmed its citizens and restricts weaponry and armor exclusively to their indoctrinated military forces who also serve as the police force and can summarily execute dissenters from CS beliefs. They even had a purity spiral period where they went to war with one of their fellow states simply because they weren't conforming to the leadership's dogma enough.

Those who actually make it into their cities have their basic needs met akin to a UBI, but just like socialized medicine you either make do with the limited services or resort to getting treatment from the black market. Those outside those walls have no rights as far as the CS is concerned and they'll burn down whole sections of the communities outside those walls just to maintain their control.

Meanwhile the elites receive the best educations at exclusive schools in preparation for taking up prestigious government positions. Similarly, they receive the best medical care, including advanced medical procedures like life extension (as in, can live to be 300 years old while the masses have seen the average lifespan drop to just 60 years).

It is firmly established that the CS leadership believes the common man is too stupid to rule himself and that only they are enlightened enough to bring about utopia. They use magic/monsters and those who think differently as boogeyman to justify their control over society.

They are the epitome of Big Brother right out of 1984. They're the world once the SJWs have served their purpose for their paymasters.

The Rogue Scholars are people exiled to the wilderness for daring to speak out for truth, teach real history and for the values of a democratic republic. Their crimes against the state are teaching people to read and think for themselves and distributing actual history books. They aren't organizing riots, destroying businesses or tearing down historical monuments.

In short, you completely misrepresent the setting of Rifts with your ill-informed description to the point I feel you're either a troll or a deliberate provocateur spreading slander against Palladium Books and trying to turn those who would be allies against them precisely because they haven't bent the knee to SJW ideology.

You are either grossly ignorant or a liar, sir. I care not which because you're blather is useless either way.

I'm not really sure what you guys are disagreeing about. Obviously Simbieda has Nazi bad guys. He's also clearly not a Social Justice Warrior.  SJWs hate Nazis but are a lot like Nazis in many ways, Antifa especially of course. I'm guessing Simbieda is a typical US Right-Libertarian. Right-Libertarians hate National Socialists as well as International Socialists.

Quote from: S'mon;1143943I'm not really sure what you guys are disagreeing about. Obviously Simbieda has Nazi bad guys. He's also clearly not a Social Justice Warrior.  SJWs hate Nazis but are a lot like Nazis in many ways, Antifa especially of course. I'm guessing Simbieda is a typical US Right-Libertarian. Right-Libertarians hate National Socialists as well as International Socialists.

That's not what pawsway claimed. He claimed Kevin was an SJW because he's claiming the Coalition is meant to be Red State America (I guess because the SJW claim is that anyone not left of Mao is a racist fascist) and that because the good guys aren't racists and are diverse (i.e. can be D-bees) and educated they're intended to be the SJWs of the setting.

It's just such an utter misread of the setting it's either deliberate malice or pants wetting levels of mental disability.

I actually know Kevin; had lunch, did some business, got the tour (the man has an amazing library). Kevin is, first and foremost, a storyteller.

The Coalition was way more inspired by The Empire in Star Wars (Kevin Long's original artwork makes it easy to see... faceless stormtroopers, speeder bikes, walkers, etc.) because he wanted a Big Bad the PCs could easily oppose than as any sort of social commentary. He also threw in the Federation of Magic so there'd be a powerful group of evil magic-users to deal with too.

Similarly, the Free State of Lazlo, Erin Tarn and the like are your plucky resistance fighting for essentially Truth, Justice and the American Way. They're basically the Rebel Alliance.

While I can't see the depths of Men's hearts, I would be flabbergasted if anything other than "what's going to make the most crazy-awesome setting ever!" was on Kevin's mind as he created Rifts.

Never seen a hobby where people politicize the crap out of it. Is it the lack of entertainment?

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1144011Never seen a hobby where people politicize the crap out of it. Is it the lack of entertainment?

As has been said before about academic department meetings, the politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low.

Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1144011Never seen a hobby where people politicize the crap out of it. Is it the lack of entertainment?

Pretty much every venue of entertainment has been infiltrated and either co-opted or under hidden siege. What you are seeing are the agents now pushing overtly and making increasing headway into everything. Board gaming, cartoons, RPGs, PC/console games. Mow even sports and hobbies are being targeted.

All to serve as platforms for their fake agendas.

This isnt new really, this is the 3rd iteration I've lived through so far. But this is arguably the worst and most wide spread damaging to date.

Knitting and embroidery groups have become politicized, and that was over a year ago, where have you been?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1144013As has been said before about academic department meetings, the politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low.

I disagree in part -- the monetary stakes may be low, but the cultural stakes are high. A culture is defined, in large part, by its myths and legends. Comics, games, movies, tv - that's our contemporary legendarium. And we are witnessing a full-spectrum assault on every aspect of it. Fighting back really does matter.

Quote from: amacris;1144250I disagree in part -- the monetary stakes may be low, but the cultural stakes are high. A culture is defined, in large part, by its myths and legends. Comics, games, movies, tv - that's our contemporary legendarium. And we are witnessing a full-spectrum assault on every aspect of it. Fighting back really does matter.

I don't disagree with that at all.  It's civilization versus barbarism at stake. Where the stakes are low is that if the barbarians get their way, none of this other stuff will matter one whit.

Quote from: Chris24601;1143982That's not what pawsway claimed. He claimed Kevin was an SJW because he's claiming the Coalition is meant to be Red State America (I guess because the SJW claim is that anyone not left of Mao is a racist fascist) and that because the good guys aren't racists and are diverse (i.e. can be D-bees) and educated they're intended to be the SJWs of the setting.

It's just such an utter misread of the setting it's either deliberate malice or pants wetting levels of mental disability.

I actually know Kevin; had lunch, did some business, got the tour (the man has an amazing library). Kevin is, first and foremost, a storyteller.

The Coalition was way more inspired by The Empire in Star Wars (Kevin Long's original artwork makes it easy to see... faceless stormtroopers, speeder bikes, walkers, etc.) because he wanted a Big Bad the PCs could easily oppose than as any sort of social commentary. He also threw in the Federation of Magic so there'd be a powerful group of evil magic-users to deal with too.

Similarly, the Free State of Lazlo, Erin Tarn and the like are your plucky resistance fighting for essentially Truth, Justice and the American Way. They're basically the Rebel Alliance.

While I can't see the depths of Men's hearts, I would be flabbergasted if anything other than "what's going to make the most crazy-awesome setting ever!" was on Kevin's mind as he created Rifts.

You know, it might be a complete coincidence that that Coalition States share their initials with the Confederate States of America. Maybe it's completely random that the Coalition's dog boys come from Lone Star. It could be an unintentional parallel that the CS are fascist, racist authoritarians whose dress code incorporates skulls, and that is not intended to have any parallels with any situations in real life.

Even if you set all that aside, Cyber-Knights are literally warriors for social justice. They defend the weak, they oppose the over-reaches of authority, and they exist to bring light to the world.

Equating Antifa to fascism is simply stupid. The opposite of Antifa is fascism. If you oppose people who oppose fascism, you are supporting fascism.

I get that you don't get it. But even if Kevin himself rose up from Atlantis and proclaimed Antifa is the real fascism and anti-racism is the real racism and social justice is the real injustice, the Rifts books still make it clear who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. Do you think a Glitter Boy is supposed to fire into crowds of unarmed protesters? Do you think a Cyber-Knight would kill someone for being a public nuisance or selling untaxed cigarettes? Literally you are encouraged to play a City Rat, a romanticized urban criminal. Literally, you can play a Scholar, teaching people knowledge, science, and rhetoric that will cause people to rise up against the established authority. If Kevin was trying to convey that the "good guys" should support law and order, and the bad guys were supporters of knowledge, immigration, justice, anarchy, prosecution, and diversity (even at some risk), then he really messed up somewhere along the way.

The Coalition States are very much the embodiment of authoritarianism, of anti-intellectualism, of haves-and-have-nots. And if you think it's the leftists somehow who are going to massively disarm the populace and put you at the mercy of authoritarian police and military forces... how do you explain the news? Was Tamir Rice given the right to openly bear arms? Who gets killed protests, unarmed leftists getting run over by cars, or armed white militias demonstrating in public?

So in short, I don't know what twisted logic makes Rifts anything other than of fascism, greed, environmental destruction, and the exploitation of others. Those themes are repeated time and again. The disgusting merchants of others lives and freedoms are Splugorth.

when did the rpg companies became "woke?" Was there a tipping point of sorts? I don't remember overtly political stuff in D&D books when I was into it initially in the late 2000s.

Quote from: pawsplay;1144426You know, it might be a complete coincidence that that Coalition States share their initials with the Confederate States of America. Maybe it's completely random that the Coalition's dog boys come from Lone Star. It could be an unintentional parallel that the CS are fascist, racist authoritarians whose dress code incorporates skulls, and that is not intended to have any parallels with any situations in real life.

Even if you set all that aside, Cyber-Knights are literally warriors for social justice. They defend the weak, they oppose the over-reaches of authority, and they exist to bring light to the world.

Equating Antifa to fascism is simply stupid. The opposite of Antifa is fascism. If you oppose people who oppose fascism, you are supporting fascism.

I get that you don't get it. But even if Kevin himself rose up from Atlantis and proclaimed Antifa is the real fascism and anti-racism is the real racism and social justice is the real injustice, the Rifts books still make it clear who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. Do you think a Glitter Boy is supposed to fire into crowds of unarmed protesters? Do you think a Cyber-Knight would kill someone for being a public nuisance or selling untaxed cigarettes? Literally you are encouraged to play a City Rat, a romanticized urban criminal. Literally, you can play a Scholar, teaching people knowledge, science, and rhetoric that will cause people to rise up against the established authority. If Kevin was trying to convey that the "good guys" should support law and order, and the bad guys were supporters of knowledge, immigration, justice, anarchy, prosecution, and diversity (even at some risk), then he really messed up somewhere along the way.

The Coalition States are very much the embodiment of authoritarianism, of anti-intellectualism, of haves-and-have-nots. And if you think it's the leftists somehow who are going to massively disarm the populace and put you at the mercy of authoritarian police and military forces... how do you explain the news? Was Tamir Rice given the right to openly bear arms? Who gets killed protests, unarmed leftists getting run over by cars, or armed white militias demonstrating in public?

So in short, I don't know what twisted logic makes Rifts anything other than of fascism, greed, environmental destruction, and the exploitation of others. Those themes are repeated time and again. The disgusting merchants of others lives and freedoms are Splugorth.

"We call ourselves the good guys, therefore anyone that opposes us is by definition a bad guy"

If I wrote a faction like that not a single one of my players would buy the propaganda. Neither does anyone with a brain, yes antifart are the bad guys, they are fascists, racists and all around bigots.

Obviously you can't be fascist if you call yourself anti-fascist. And anyone who fights for Justice must obviously be for SOCIAL "Justice", cuz it has the word "Justice" in it, so evidently they're the same thing. ;)

This is proof positive that the Coalition State leadership is correct in their believes regarding the common plebs' ability to rule themselves. Long live the Coalition State!

Quote from: Cigalazade;1144441when did the rpg companies became "woke?" Was there a tipping point of sorts? I don't remember overtly political stuff in D&D books when I was into it initially in the late 2000s.

I guess the original wokeness was DnD 2nd edition.

I think I found the game that tops them all.  From Channel M Publishing, the dedication in the core book for Bellum Maga reads:

'This book is us saying "fuck you" to the sexist, racist, gay bashing right wing ultra conservative luddite assholes that's trying to turning our world into a white man's paradise.'

It's a shame because the book itself is nicely illustrated and laid out.  I don't know if the rules are any good because as soon as I came across that, I stopped reading.

It is utterly bizarre to me that there are people in 2020 who still think like that.  I would have expected something like that in 1950 but I would think even radical SJW feminists could look around them and see the world isn't like that anymore.  To me that's beyond just political partisanship and into a territory of being disconnected from reality.

Quote from: kidkaos2;1144482I think I found the game that tops them all.  From Channel M Publishing, the dedication in the core book for Bellum Maga reads:

'This book is us saying "fuck you" to the sexist, racist, gay bashing right wing ultra conservative luddite assholes that's trying to turning our world into a white man's paradise.'

It's a shame because the book itself is nicely illustrated and laid out.  I don't know if the rules are any good because as soon as I came across that, I stopped reading.

It is utterly bizarre to me that there are people in 2020 who still think like that.  I would have expected something like that in 1950 but I would think even radical SJW feminists could look around them and see the world isn't like that anymore.  To me that's beyond just political partisanship and into a territory of being disconnected from reality.

I'll just leave this here. https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/bellum-maga/

Quote from: Shasarak;1144459I guess the original wokeness was DnD 2nd edition.

   AD&D 2nd Edition pulled back in some areas to accommodate the conservative sensibilities of Middle America, but that's a far cry from being 'woke' as far as ideology goes.

   You'd get some political themes in the occasional product in the 80s (what I've heard about the Villains & Vigilantes adventure For the Greater Good would definitely qualify), and arguably in the original World of Darkness. For D&D, they don't start pushing a strong agenda until about midway into 5th Edition.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1144511I'll just leave this here. https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/bellum-maga/

RAHOWA for white female SJWs - well at least it knows what it is. I find products suffused with similar sensibilities but from an "of course everyone thinks like this" perspective far more annoying.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1144013As has been said before about academic department meetings, the politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low.

Not only politics, all kinds of conflict. In all my years on Usenet, where my name and address were public knowledge and I pissed off both ends of the political spectrum and, especially, centrists, only once did someone from Usenet show up at my door. And he was looking for Ed, who lived on the second floor, to kick his ass about a dispute on how to install FoxPro properly. Drove from Michigan or somewhere in the wilderness like that, to New Haven to fight about software installation. Ed was critically ill and back in the hospital, so I told the guy to fuck off. I don't think he liked the look my dog was giving him, so he left.

Quote from: pawsplay;1144426Equating Antifa to fascism is simply stupid. The opposite of Antifa is fascism. If you oppose people who oppose fascism, you are supporting fascism.

The Nazis called themselves National Socialists, therefore if you support socialism you're a nazi.

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea has 'democratic' in the title, therefore it's a democracy.

Etc.

Etc.

Quote from: Cigalazade;1144441when did the rpg companies became "woke?" Was there a tipping point of sorts? I don't remember overtly political stuff in D&D books when I was into it initially in the late 2000s.

I'd say around 2013/2014 when the GamerGate stuff really exploded. At first it was kept to mostly video games, but given the circles that players and developers inhabit tend to have a lot of overlap it was inevitable that there was cross-contamination of sorts. Now it could definitely be argued that GamerGate by itself was more of a coincidence, given social justice as a whole had been on an upward trend and GG was merely one part of it, but it certainly seemed to propel things further. I'd say the seeds were slowly being sowed up until November 2016, when things really just exploded massively and these developers/companies really went all out with their overt Wokeness, be that to feel like edgy, 'heroic' rebels somehow (don't ask me how) sticking it to Orange Man and his Ultra Far-Right Patriarchal Voters, hoping to score brownie points with g-g-g-g-g-girls (predatorcamouflage.jpg) and their fellow Woke circle jerk circles (of mostly white people) or more likely both.

I see my mistake now; I thought pawsplay was attributing SJW motives on Rifts as a criticism when instead he meant it as praise because he/she/shit (I don't want to judge their pronouns) is just another SJW with the self-attributed magical power to read the hearts and inner minds of men and judge them for it and who reads meaning into texts that simply isn't there.

I'll admit to being surprised though that for once this is being used to try and spare an RPG from the wrath of the deranged Leftists instead of destroying it.

Quote from: pawsplay;1144426You know, it might be a complete coincidence that that Coalition States share their initials with the Confederate States of America.

Only in 2+2=4 is oppression-land are CSA (Confederate States of America) and CS (Coalition States... with a distinct lack of "America" in its name) the same. The fact is that in the books they are most commonly called simply "The Coalition" in the same way that it's just "The Empire" in Star Wars because they were intended to be basically the same thing in Rifts.

QuoteMaybe it's completely random that the Coalition's dog boys come from Lone Star. It could be an unintentional parallel that the CS are fascist, racist authoritarians whose dress code incorporates skulls, and that is not intended to have any parallels with any situations in real life.

I'll admit to being unfamiliar with whatever "dog whistle" (pun intended) you think having genetically engineered mutant dog soldiers from a research facility in Texas is supposed to indicate. The actual site also created numerous other mutant animal-human hybrids including cats, bears and monkeys and even weirder stuff than that).

Likewise, Skulls were big in a lot of German/Nazi symbolism too. It's pervasive enough to have its own Wikipedia entry; the Totenkopf (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf). Given that the Coalition is intended to be led by Literal Nazis... skull motifs, racist and fascist doesn't seem like it's intended to mean anything deeper than "they're Nazis and villains."

QuoteEven if you set all that aside, Cyber-Knights are literally warriors for social justice. They defend the weak, they oppose the over-reaches of authority, and they exist to bring light to the world.

No, they are literally classical chivalric knights in shining armor. Their code is literally a variation on the Code of Chivalry found in "The Song of Roland" from the 11th Century that Kevin adapted first for the Knight/Palladin class in Palladium Fantasy and then tweaked further for Rifts;

- To fear God and maintain His Church
- To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
- To protect the weak and defenceless
- To give succour to widows and orphans
- To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
- To live by honour and for glory
- To despise pecuniary reward
- To fight for the welfare of all
- To obey those placed in authority
- To guard the honour of fellow knights
- To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
- To keep faith
- At all times to speak the truth
- To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
- To respect the honour of women
- Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
- Never to turn the back upon a foe

But leave it to a Leftist to think that only the modern woke could have come up with standards of goodness and heroism that white Christian males actually worked out more than a millennium ago.

QuoteEquating Antifa to fascism is simply stupid. The opposite of Antifa is fascism. If you oppose people who oppose fascism, you are supporting fascism.

Because NO ONE EVER uses misleading names for themselves... I'm sure the Democratic People's Republic of (North) Korea is exactly the bastion of democratic and republican principles in service to the people that it's name implies.

Antifa is a bunch of international critical theory Marxists supported by the same people who in the 70s believed that murdering 20% of the US population was justified by their dreams of the utopia that they thought it would usher in.

The only difference between them and fascist National Socialists of Germany is that they want globalists in charge of the State instead of nationalists in charge of the State.

QuoteDo you think a Glitter Boy is supposed to fire into crowds of unarmed protesters?

No, but Antifa attacks peaceful conservative protestors regularly. https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case (https://www.berkeleyside.com/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case)

QuoteDo you think a Cyber-Knight would kill someone for being a public nuisance or selling untaxed cigarettes?

No, but BLM supporters murder young unarmed mothers for saying "all lives matter."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8515507/Young-mother-24-shot-dead-fianc-saying-lives-matter.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8515507/Young-mother-24-shot-dead-fianc-saying-lives-matter.html)

QuoteLiterally, you can play a Scholar, teaching people knowledge, science, and rhetoric that will cause people to rise up against the established authority.

You mean a corrupt authority that uses fake news propaganda to keep its people ignorant and whip up their hatred against people who believe differently from the State's preferences?

But I understand now; if this were Rifts you'd BE a Coalition citizen because you're one of the brainwashed masses who believe that all those who don't fully embrace wokism are evil monsters who need to have their voices silenced so you can finally achieve your leaders' vision of utopia.

Quote from: BrokenCounsel;1144511I'll just leave this here. https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/bellum-maga/

Looks like there's a spiritual successor game on the horizon: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/greyauthor/the-great-american-witch

Can I call this offensive for its misuse of Scripture in the tag and its Hislopian misrepresentation and appropriation of Catholic teaching on Mary? (That's a rhetorical question; I already know the answer is a firm No.) :)

Quote from: Snark Knight;1144526The Nazis called themselves National Socialists, therefore if you support socialism you're a nazi.

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea has 'democratic' in the title, therefore it's a democracy.

Don't laugh, there's people on this very site who actually believe (or claim to believe) that Nazis were socialist, just because they put "socialist" in their branding. Ridiculous I know, but hey, there's no accounting for folk.

Frankly, getting back to rpgs, there is little or no need for role playing games to be politically branded at all. At most, it's the lamest possible way of pushing any political agenda.  RaHoWa or woke, either way it's a pathetic and fairly meaningless venue for pushing any political agenda, whatever that may be.

Quote from: Zirunel;1144555Don't laugh, there's people on this very site who actually believe (or claim to believe) that Nazis were socialist, just because they put "socialist" in their branding. Ridiculous I know, but hey, there's no accounting for folk.

Frankly, getting back to rpgs, there is little or no need for role playing games to be politically branded at all. At most, it's the lamest possible way of pushing any political agenda.  RaHoWa or woke, either way it's a pathetic and fairly meaningless venue for pushing any political agenda, whatever that may be.

And then some people believe they were certainly supporting socialist policies, ala Hitler's 25 point plan...

The 25-point Program of the NSDAP
1.We demand the union of all Germans to form the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination enjoyed by the nations.
2.We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations; and abolition of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3.We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people and colonization for our superfluous population.
4.None but members of the nation may be citizens of the state. None but those of German blood, whatever their creed may be. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.
5.Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest and must be regarded as being subject to foreign laws.
6.The right of voting on the state's government and legislation is to be enjoyed by the citizen of the state alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, shall be granted to citizens of the state alone. We oppose the corrupting custom of parliament of filling posts merely with a view to party considerations, and without reference to character or capability.
7.We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to nourish the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) must be excluded from the Reich.
8.All immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be required immediately to leave the Reich.
9.All citizens of the state shall be equal as regards rights and obligations.
10.The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically. The activity of individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the whole for the benefit for the general good. We demand therefore:
11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice of life and property that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment due to a war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. Therefore, we demand ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts).
14.We demand that the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18.We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the state must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the state of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The state is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race;b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the state to be published. They may not be printed in the German language;c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications or any influence on them and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: "The good of the community before the good of the individual".[13] ("GEMEINNUTZ GEHT VOR EIGENNUTZ" [all caps in original])[14]
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Quote from: shuddemell;1144869And then some people believe they were certainly supporting socialist policies, ala Hitler's 25 point plan...

The 25-point Program of the NSDAP
1.We demand the union of all Germans to form the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination enjoyed by the nations.
2.We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations; and abolition of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3.We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people and colonization for our superfluous population.
4.None but members of the nation may be citizens of the state. None but those of German blood, whatever their creed may be. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.
5.Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest and must be regarded as being subject to foreign laws.
6.The right of voting on the state's government and legislation is to be enjoyed by the citizen of the state alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, shall be granted to citizens of the state alone. We oppose the corrupting custom of parliament of filling posts merely with a view to party considerations, and without reference to character or capability.
7.We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to nourish the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) must be excluded from the Reich.
8.All immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be required immediately to leave the Reich.
9.All citizens of the state shall be equal as regards rights and obligations.
10.The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically. The activity of individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the whole for the benefit for the general good. We demand therefore:
11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice of life and property that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment due to a war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. Therefore, we demand ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts).
14.We demand that the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18.We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the state must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the state of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The state is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race;b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the state to be published. They may not be printed in the German language;c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications or any influence on them and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: "The good of the community before the good of the individual".[13] ("GEMEINNUTZ GEHT VOR EIGENNUTZ" [all caps in original])[14]
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

I could respond, but this is not an rpg topic. Perhaps you should start a thread in the subforum.

Respond here if you would like. https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42468-Yes-SJWs-ARE-Fascists/page8

Quote from: Shasarak;1144459I guess the original wokeness was DnD 2nd edition.

Nope, that was iteration x as thered been at least 3 prior. This has been going cyclic every20 years since at least 1910.

Quote from: Omega;1144953Nope, that was iteration x as thered been at least 3 prior. This has been going cyclic every20 years since at least 1910.

The 1910 DnD was my favourite.