$6,155
Ebay Original D&D Sale
http://www.ebay.com/itm/3rd-Printing-Of-Original-dungeons-and-dragons-With-Supplements-In-Woodgrain-Box/182814153141?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3rd-Printing-Of-Original-dungeons-and-dragons-With-Supplements-In-Woodgrain-Box/182814153141?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649)
Do you shellac that for posterity, or does that ruin its patina? :p
I'm trying to care and failing. So somebody has a lot of extra cash, I guess? :rolleyes:
I wish I had one or two of them laying around...
Did you notice the link at the bottom to another set for sale (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dungeons-Dragons-1974-Ed-Series-With-Ref-Sheets-Supplements-I-And-II-Large-Lot/182756440414?_trkparms=) apparently owned by Steve Perrin?
Quote from: Dumarest;1001066I'm trying to care and failing. So somebody has a lot of extra cash, I guess? :rolleyes:
Off topic: Why are you here? This site is based on everything you apparently hate: D&D and all it's derivatives. And 90% of your posts are about how you're not part of the hobby in the first place. Personally, and this is just me, but if I don't have anything to actively contribute, I try (and probably fail) to not post. But you? Are you really that bored?
On topic: Now there's someone who really wants a piece of history. I wonder what they'll do with it. Put in a box, or actually use it.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1001095Off topic: Why are you here? This site is based on everything you apparently hate: D&D and all it's derivatives. And 90% of your posts are about how you're not part of the hobby in the first place. Personally, and this is just me, but if I don't have anything to actively contribute, I try (and probably fail) to not post. But you? Are you really that bored?
To actively annoy people like you, of course.
And I call bullshit on you not posting when you have nothing to actively contribute. As well as bullshit on what I have posted about. Go check my posting history, you dumb shit. It's nothing at all like what you claim, so clearly you haven't been reading or you've failed reading comprehension.
Also: what is there to contribute to this thread? "That's nice, someone bought a game"?
Jesus, you are about the dumbest fuck I've ever seen on here including Biscuit.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1001095Off topic: Why are you here? This site is based on everything you apparently hate: D&D and all it's derivatives. And 90% of your posts are about how you're not part of the hobby in the first place. Personally, and this is just me, but if I don't have anything to actively contribute, I try (and probably fail) to not post. But you? Are you really that bored?
On topic: Now there's someone who really wants a piece of history. I wonder what they'll do with it. Put in a box, or actually use it.
He likes FGU, so he can't be all bad.
But don't buy any of the land his shirtless avatar is peddling... $6000 for a D&D set is a much better investment than California Pines. :p
Quote from: Dumarest;1001097To actively annoy people like you, of course.
So you're saying that you're just here to troll? And here I was hoping you'd have something of value to discuss with. Oh well. Oh, and I don't annoy easily, it's more that I'm just disappointed, son.
Quote from: Dumarest;1001097Also: what is there to contribute to this thread? "That's nice, someone bought a game"?
Last thing I'm going to say: Why waste the energy to even bother posting?
Quote from: Toadmaster;1001111He likes FGU, so he can't be all bad.
A friend picked up a few of their old games, but I missed that era of gaming.
Still not gonna sell mine.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1001167Still not gonna sell mine.
I didn't get a brown box. My first book set was a very early Whitebox set, However book one, Men & Magic had the rider on horseback on it, even though the fighting man was on foot on the box cover. The monsters book had the Tolkien stuff in it, Hobbits and Balrogs... I literally played so much I wore out the box in just a year and a half or so, and sold the loose books ...then bought a second whitebox in 79 and was very surprised and dismayed that the books had changed, and the Tolkien stuff taken out of the books. I have one whitebox set now which I do use for play, as well as a second set of books, loose without a box, and all four supplements, of course. These I use almost every time I play D&D, however I'm very careful about moving and storing the box. My third White box had the collector's edition red stamp on it, and was at least a fourth printing.
Pretty soon, I'm going to probably just scan the books and play from printed copies of my scans, because a white bookset in good condtion with the box is typically going for $250-300 these days. that's 25-30x its original price and far greater than inflation would account for. As fewer originals remain, I expect the price will rise, ...well just about astronomically. I really do enjoy the look on players faces though, when they sit down at the table, and they realize we are playing with the original D&D edition books and supplements. Anything from the 70's is appreciating very nicely and gaining value.
Average price of a brown bookset sold publicly this year, about $12,000, or 1200x it's original $10 price tag. I wish our original house would appreciate like that, in 1977 we paid $27,000 for it, so it would be worth a cool 2.7 million about now.
Some peoples houses did appreciate like that. In Toronto and Vancouver.
Quote from: Headless;1001200Some peoples houses did appreciate like that. In Toronto and Vancouver.
The housing market in T.O. is insane. My parent's first house, which I think they bought for $16,000, is now worth 1.2 million. The following is from a Sept 6, 2017 article in the Toronto Star, and will give you an idea of the situation:
"The Toronto Real Estate Board (TREB) reported that the average cost of a home in August — $732,292 (including all house types and condos) — was still up 3 per cent or about $20,000 compared to August 2016.
But that is still down about 20 per cent, or $187,000 lower than April, when the average price peaked at $919,086." If my old AD&D books appreciated that much I'd sell them in an instant. Sorry for derailing the discussion. :D
Quote from: GameDaddy;1001175IPretty soon, I'm going to probably just scan the books and play from printed copies of my scans, b
I would just buy the PDFs. Way better than anything I could do at home or have the time for. I owned the originals from having bought a White Box Collectors in 1980 the supplements slightly later. I bought the PDFs anyway and was glad I did.
Looks like the woody didn't sell afterall: https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=277959#p277959
Allan.
...I hadn't noticed it was third printing. Holy crap.
Quote from: RunningLaser;1001077I wish I had one or two of them laying around...
Okay fun story related to that line of thinking only A few years ago back in 2008ish I was big in to the PlayStation line of gaming consoles and still am any way and I had finally saved up enough money to buy A PlayStation 3. While I was at the gamestop I saw A game that had just came out for the ps2 called
Rule of rose and being as the ps2 was dieing hard and fast as far as gamestop and Sony where concerned they had all ready marked them down to try and get rid of them. Now even though I thought the game looked cool I didn't have the money to get it and the ps3 so I went with the ps3 (I specifically remember thinking I'll have to pick up A copy of that game later). Now to day
Rule of rose is A 100$ dollar game just for the disc and you will pay 200-250$ for A complete copy 400$ + for A new copy. Now the clerk had made it very clear that they where willing to make A deal if I wanted A copy or multiple copy's. Now I don't need to tell you at this point why I feal like kicking my self when I think about this.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1001175I didn't get a brown box. My first book set was a very early Whitebox set, However book one, Men & Magic had the rider on horseback on it, even though the fighting man was on foot on the box cover. The monsters book had the Tolkien stuff in it, Hobbits and Balrogs... I literally played so much I wore out the box in just a year and a half or so, and sold the loose books ...then bought a second whitebox in 79 and was very surprised and dismayed that the books had changed, and the Tolkien stuff taken out of the books. I have one whitebox set now which I do use for play, as well as a second set of books, loose without a box, and all four supplements, of course. These I use almost every time I play D&D, however I'm very careful about moving and storing the box. My third White box had the collector's edition red stamp on it, and was at least a fourth printing.
Pretty soon, I'm going to probably just scan the books and play from printed copies of my scans, because a white bookset in good condtion with the box is typically going for $250-300 these days. that's 25-30x its original price and far greater than inflation would account for. As fewer originals remain, I expect the price will rise, ...well just about astronomically. I really do enjoy the look on players faces though, when they sit down at the table, and they realize we are playing with the original D&D edition books and supplements. Anything from the 70's is appreciating very nicely and gaining value.
Average price of a brown bookset sold publicly this year, about $12,000, or 1200x it's original $10 price tag. I wish our original house would appreciate like that, in 1977 we paid $27,000 for it, so it would be worth a cool 2.7 million about now.
Question what printing had the LOTR stuff pulled out and or how soon did it happen?
Quote from: grodog;1001264Looks like the woody didn't sell afterall: https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=277959#p277959
Allan.
That's very interesting. There were three separate new bidders in the last hour and six minutes of this auction. Let's see... with bids of;
$ 6,155
$ 6,055
$ 4,201
The second highest bid was received eleven seconds after the scheduled end of the auction so might (at the discretion of Ebay) be automatically be disqualified unless it was in fact the highest bid, In which case Ebay has recently announced a new policy where the bidding may be extended for thirty seconds to allow for all the bids to get through that were in fact made before the actual end of the auction, but because of Internet routing delays and such, are not received at Ebay until after the end of the auction. Ebays' fudge factor for this is thirty seconds, so bidding may continue almost indefinitely (at the discretion of Ebay) these days on hotly contested items, so long as new high bids continue to be received within a thirty second window of the previous bid. I received the official notification of this bidding policy change, from Ebay, in just the last couple of weeks.
Now the highest bid was received at Ebay and timestamped three seconds before the end of the auction.
If the item didn't sell, it's on account the high bidder reneged on their bid.
It is customary then, that the next highest bidder is then obligated to purchase the item being bid upon.
In this case, it's very clear that the second highest bidder also reneged on their bid, because the seller is currently over on Acaeum hawking the woodgrain boxed set for $5,400 (I'll have a few choice comments on this shortly, however, ...back to the matter at hand, the failed Ebay sale of a woodgrain boxed set).
Even with both off of the table, then the third highest bidder would then be obligated to purchase the item, because... auction. With a bid of $4,201 he/she would then automatically win the auction, pay for the books, and received the goods. That's the way it works at most of the auctions I observe and participate in, Like say for example, from
Christie's,
Sotheby's, and my personal favorite
Bonham's. More than once I have found myself obligated to fulfill my bid during an auction after the high bidder(s) reneged, so this entire process right now, is under a red flag from me, ...and should be for you as well, ...as not only did the two highest bidders renege, but the seller also reneged on selling to the third highest bidder. I understand his motive (greed), I don't think it is right though, because a minimum reserve price had not been set for this original woodgrain boxed set prior to the auction.
...except in California it would seem (where Ebay has their Headquarters, and where the server farms are located controlling the E-bay auctions), where auction laws concerning the buyer allow this to actually be legal. The statute that covers bidding during auctions is California Code, Commercial Code, Section 2328 which is as follows:
(1) In a sale by auction if goods are put up in lots each lot is the subject of a separate sale.
(2) A sale by auction is complete when the auctioneer so announces by the fall of the hammer or in other customary manner. Where a bid is made while the hammer is falling in acceptance of a prior bid the auctioneer may in his discretion reopen the bidding or declare the goods sold under the bid on which the hammer was falling.
(3) Such a sale is with reserve unless the goods are in explicit terms put up without reserve. In an auction with reserve the auctioneer may withdraw the goods at any time until he announces completion of the sale. In an auction without reserve, after the auctioneer calls for bids on an article or lot, that article or lot cannot be withdrawn unless no bid is made within a reasonable time. In either case a bidder may retract his bid until the auctioneer's announcement of completion of the sale, but a bidder's retraction does not revive any previous bid.
(4) If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller's behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale. This subdivision shall not apply to any bid at a forced sale.I'm also sure there are some California criminal statutes that may apply to individuals who deliberately and fraudulently bid on items to artificially inflate their price or perceived value during an auction. One thing for sure, if an item is fraudulently sold at auction, and shipped over state lines, it automatically becomes a case under federal jurisdiction, and the penalties for wire fraud (selling stuff illegally over the internet with goods being transported across state lines) or mail fraud (mailing it via US Postal Service) , are subject to a million dollar fine (for each instance) and thirty years hard time in a federal penitentiary. This is in addition to any other penalties for conspiracy and racketeering charges that DoJ will dream up for anyone who just might be organizing illegal interstate auction rings.
How do I know all this? Back in the day when I did security work, I was temporarily teamed up with a U.S. Postal Inspector who was hot on the trail of some folks that were violating both the wire fraud statutes (illegally selling counterfeit merchandise online and then shipping the merchandise across state lines), as well as the postal statues (they were actually shipping the merchandise via the U.S. Mail, of all things), and the course of his investigation brought him to one of my clients who were the manufacturers of the authentic merchandise, that the counterfeiters were illegally re-selling. So I got to help my client, and worked with a U.S. Postal Inspector for a few weeks who was part of an organized crime task force. The criminals got caught, were charged, and thrown in jail. I didn't keep track of the case after that or not, so don't know how long they were sentenced for, or whether they ended up paying the hefty fines, but I did learn the relevant law regarding such activities from the Postal Inspector. Any racketeering charges, and anything you own may get auctioned by the Fed.
BTW, Government auctions are like forced auctions, so if other bidders renege, you may end up obligated even though you weren't the high bidder. There's, of course, another story behind that, and whenever you meet me in person, feel free to ask about the time I almost ended up as the owner of a tramp freighter, for somewhere in the neighborhood of $78,000, after I attended a DEA auction in Miami back in the 90's.
Also, hopefully, this pattern of bidding and reneging on high value vintage gaming items is an isolated incident, or anomaly.I wouldn't buy what the seller has for sale now, even if I had the money to spare, as, ethically speaking, he should have made the woodgrain boxed set available to the next highest bidders (in this case the third bidder at $4,201, and then the fourth bidder after that at $2,500 or so) if he really meant to auction the D&D set instead of, you know, ...price gouge some eBay rubes.References:For the gentle readers here I'm going to put in a link to the law library of Cornell Universities Law School, as a reference concerning these discussions, of some of the additional details that flow around auctions in general, and interstate auctions in particular, especially where items are subsequently delivered by U.S. Mail, UPS. FEDEX and/or via commercial cargo delivery companies or freight forwarding companies here in the United States.
U.S. Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 63 MAIL FRAUD AND OTHER OFFENSES
Section 1341 - Frauds and Swindles
Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute, supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use any counterfeit or spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do, places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service, or deposits or causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier, or takes or receives therefrom, any such matter or thing, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail or such carrier according to the direction thereon, or at the place at which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any such matter or thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.Section 1343 - Fraud by wire, radio, or television
Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
Section 1349 - Attempt & conspiracy
Any person who attempts or conspires to commit any offense under this chapter shall be subject to the same penalties as those prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the attempt or conspiracy.
Some more interesting reading for you...
U.S. Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 96, RACKETEER INFLUENCED AND CORRUPT ORGANIZATIONS
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-96
Quote from: kosmos1214;1001407Question what printing had the LOTR stuff pulled out and or how soon did it happen?
Umm... I think it was in a fourth printing, which is what I initially bought, however received some third printing books in my whitebox set.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1001425Umm... I think it was in a fourth printing, which is what I initially bought, however received some third printing books in my whitebox set.
Ah thank you.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1001425Umm... I think it was in a fourth printing, which is what I initially bought, however received some third printing books in my whitebox set.
That's not quite correct. The 4th printing (November 1975) is when the boxed changed from wood-grain to white, and the cover art on the box and volume 1 changed, but the interior of the books was still the same. I used to own a copy of this printing.
The 5th printing (c. 1976) has the same box and cover art as the 4th printing, but the text inside has been re-set from Futura to Helvetica. There were some other minor changes to the text (some old errors corrected, some new ones introduced, etc.) but the Tolkien references are all still there. I still own a copy of this printing.
The 6th & 7th printings (c. 1977-79) are where the Tolkien references were taken out. These are the printings that have the starburst on the box cover that says "Original Collector's Edition" (to differentiate them from the D&D Basic Set and AD&D hardbacks that were on the market at the same time; as the guys at the GenCon Auction used to say whenever one of these sets came up: "it says that it's the 'Original Collector's Edition' which is how you know that it's NOT"). Most copies that you'll find for sale are of these printings because a lot more of them were made - they were on the market for 3 years at the time when D&D's popularity was growing by leaps and bounds).
The Acaeum goes into excruciating detail on the differences between printings: https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html
Quote from: T. Foster;1001666That's not quite correct. The 4th printing (November 1975) is when the boxed changed from wood-grain to white, and the cover art on the box and volume 1 changed, but the interior of the books was still the same. I used to own a copy of this printing.
The 5th printing (c. 1976) has the same box and cover art as the 4th printing, but the text inside has been re-set from Futura to Helvetica. There were some other minor changes to the text (some old errors corrected, some new ones introduced, etc.) but the Tolkien references are all still there. I still own a copy of this printing.
The 6th & 7th printings (c. 1977-79) are where the Tolkien references were taken out. These are the printings that have the starburst on the box cover that says "Original Collector's Edition" (to differentiate them from the D&D Basic Set and AD&D hardbacks that were on the market at the same time; as the guys at the GenCon Auction used to say whenever one of these sets came up: "it says that it's the 'Original Collector's Edition' which is how you know that it's NOT"). Most copies that you'll find for sale are of these printings because a lot more of them were made - they were on the market for 3 years at the time when D&D's popularity was growing by leaps and bounds).
The Acaeum goes into excruciating detail on the differences between printings: https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html
Thank you for the info and the link.
Quote from: Headless;1001200Some peoples houses did appreciate like that. In Toronto and Vancouver.
Were I live as well. Location, Location, Location.
My house here has gained about $20-30K in value over the last three years.
I own some 50g (or 2 oz) tins of discontinued tobacco that have sold for hundreds of dollars in auctions.
But I can't see the REPRINT D&D wood-box set being all that rare yet. It's crazy it'd sell for so much. Makes me wish I'd asked WoTC to send me one of those, instead of the 5e books!
...and the brown box from Hawaii just sold again for $4,750.
I would be very surprised see this sale fall through as the high bidder is a frequent bidder on high value gaming collectibles. This was about $500 less than the buyer was looking to sell the set for after the last (failed) auction.
This is just crazy.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1000945$6,155
For the love of Big Gygax.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1004695This is just crazy.
The brown-box collectors have huge amounts of money and apparently little sense.
I mentioned to one that I still had my original brown box that I used when I played with Gary.
He said "I have this guy's, and that guy's, and that guy's..."
To which I replied, "So you have the rubbers JFK and Joe DiMaggio used when they screwed Marylin Monroe. I have the rubber I used when ** I ** screwed Marilyn Monroe."
Yeah, but we're still talking about the reprint here, not the original set??
It's not the modern WoTC reprint, it's one of the first series of printings.
The brown-box sets are all extremely rare: the first printing, Dec 73/Jan 74, was 1000 copies, the second printing, Jan 75, was also 1000 copies, and the third printing, April 75, was either 2000 or 3000 copies.
If you're a collector, it's all about the rareness. By contrast, the first white-box version was printed in 25,000 copies.
But I still think collectors are nuts. It's a game, not a religious artifact. Or a sex toy.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1005186It's not the modern WoTC reprint, it's one of the first series of printings.
The brown-box sets are all extremely rare: the first printing, Dec 73/Jan 74, was 1000 copies, the second printing, Jan 75, was also 1000 copies, and the third printing, April 75, was either 2000 or 3000 copies.
If you're a collector, it's all about the rareness. By contrast, the first white-box version was printed in 25,000 copies.
But I still think collectors are nuts. It's a game, not a religious artifact. Or a sex toy.
Oh, all right. That's at least more comprehensible.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1001422That's very interesting. There were three separate new bidders in the last hour and six minutes of this auction. Let's see...
This whole post is just great. I love the casual reference to DEA in 90's Miami, the heyday of the new-school drug traffickers in the region. I am picturing a GameDaddy too cool than he probably deserves to be and also a lot filled with fascinating yet totally cocaine-stained items and many very shady characters fed and non-fed alike bidding on those same items and then ambushing each other outside the auction when they don't like the outcome.
This is literally a David Caruso moment right here...
Okay... so today's auction of one of the 1st printings of Dungeons & Dragons netted the seller $11,975.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dungeons-and-Dragons-1st-Edition-Brown-Box-1st-Printing/222700824036?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dungeons-and-Dragons-1st-Edition-Brown-Box-1st-Printing/222700824036?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649)
Also, Ebay is being lame. I can't see who bought that boxed set. I like to see who is bidding to determine if there is anyone who really isn't interested in buying, however who is simply bidding just to inflate the sales price...
Holy crap. My copy is in better shape, and it's got better provenience. Wow...
Holy fuck. Seriously, these are insane prices. It's like some kind of a bubble. There's no way these sets are so rare as to figure those prices. I mean, considering how many are being sold right now.
It's insane, but it's ALWAYS been insane. There are about a dozen rabid collectors who apparently shit money; one guy has like a dozen first-printing copies, out of 1000 printed ever.
I have no idea what you do to even get that kind of money to pay 11 grand for something you put on a fucking shelf.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1006741Holy fuck. Seriously, these are insane prices. It's like some kind of a bubble. There's no way these sets are so rare as to figure those prices. I mean, considering how many are being sold right now.
Actually they are really rare. I bought my first set in 1977, a mixed white box set containing a couple of the older books from brownbox. My second set was purchased in 1978 after trading in the original set for 4x its original $10 value, ...this even after the box had broken apart. Then a third new whitebox set in 1982, this was with the red label, a collectors edition. My Ex-wife sold all of the D&D stuff in 1985, during our divorce, except for the newest whitebox which I had with me, and had taken to Korea. In 1987 I bought another whitebox for $35 which I later put into storage at my mom & dad's house, along with a rules cyclopedia that my sister arbitrarily decided to sell at a yard sale in 1995 because it's taking my space in the basement beneath the garage.. Cue 1999. I buy my fourth whitebox set off of craig's list for $100, which I sold in 2008 at Gencon for a couple hundred dollars. Bought my fifth Whitebox set without the box in 2011 for fifty dollars, and the four supplements for an average of $20 apiece...
There were only a thousand D&D games published in the first printing, Well over half of these were simply thrown away or donated to Goodwill. No one had a clue these would be worth anything. Same deal for the other 5,000 or so brownbox games. Probably half were gone by 1980. The flimsy thin boxes do not hold up well, and are susceptible to crushing damage if they are put in backpacks, are laying out on a table, or otherwise being used regularly for a game. Fourth printing was 25,000 or so, and there were three more printings after that of whitebox D&D including one printing, I believe of one hundred thousand copies. All told, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-250,000 were printed. Half gone.
Over the years I have purchased five white D&D sets, so... there would be about 20,000 or so GM's that might have done that, but probably not. Still there would be less than 50,000 total GMs who currently have either a whitebook boxed set or a brownbox book set, if each GM managed to lose or have destroyed at least one boxed set (my second whitebox box had come apart and was also thrown away) .
Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth edition all sold well over a million copies of the core books. I heard sales figures of somewhere in the range of three million core booksets for 3e had been sold by 2004 or so, so there's a minimum of six million active D&D players out there (even more if you count the International D&D players now) , and only 50,000 or so whitebook boxed sets that are remaining, more or less intact. I would be very surprised if there were more than three hundred first printings remaining.
There is a brownbox up on Ebay now for just a hair over $4,000. Looking at the sales prices of all the brownbox booksets over the last twenty-four months reveals that the median sales price, for those that were sold at auction was more than double that, so even with the highlighted pages, that set is still looking like a real bargain!
Brownbox for sale now on Ebay for $4,080
https://www.ebay.com/itm/D-D-Woodgrain-Box-Original-Set-Gary-Gygax-TSR-Rare-Dungeons-Dragons-Gygax/162536090742?hash=item25d7e7ec76:g:m9oAAOSwyZ5UpYIS
Current Brownbox listing for $10,580 (very close to the medium sales price of Brownbox sets for the last year or so)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/TSR-ORIGINAL-DUNGEONS-DRAGONS-OD-D-BOXED-SETS-BOOK-WOODGRAIN-GYGAX-ARNESON-VGC/381485046602?hash=item58d247db4a:m:mKHBNizowBowHjw61G_1ugg
Whitebook Sets are currently being listed for $300-320 (Most, but not all of these not including Greyahwk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry & Gods, DemiGods & Heroes). Last week a very good condition Whitebox set alone sold for $250.
37 was the number of 0D&D Whitebox sets sold the this year on Ebay, and the holy number was thirty seven. The high sales price was $552 for a white bookset that had four supplements with it as well as the older books that included references to Tolkien., Six of these auctions were in the $300 range (most of these included one or more of the four supplements).The lowest available price for a white bookset that sold at auction in the last year was $96. The medium sales price for a whitebookset sold during the last twelve months was $211.
Three Brownbox sets were sold during the last year on Ebay, with the high being $22,100 for an auction right at Christmas of last year. The low end being the Hawaii set that just sold for $4,750, and with this last sale yesterday of a 1st printing for $11,975 makes the actual Median price of brownbox booksets being $12,941
If my estimates are correct one-tenth of one percent (40 out of remaining 40,000 white & brownbox D&D sets) or so...of all the remaining Original D&D booksets changed hands last year on Ebay, with a total retail value of $47,039.20, which interestingly was worth about 5x the value of the entire first OD&D print run, and only $12,960 less than the original retail value of all the original Dungeons & Dragons brown booksets ever published.
Over the course of the last year, I have been tracking the actual auctions and sales of a rather large number of original RPGs and supplements, pretty much anything published prior to 1980. If you own anything that was published prior to 1980 ...it has for the last couple of years appreciated at a rate better than the value of gold, with brownbox D&D in particular being worth approximately 5x it's actual weight in pure gold. So... a real life platinum grade investment. This is not speculation, this is an actual fact, based on actual publicly available sales data.
Pretty sure I'm hearing Gary laughing in the background in sheer disbelief.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1006741Holy fuck. Seriously, these are insane prices. It's like some kind of a bubble. There's no way these sets are so rare as to figure those prices. I mean, considering how many are being sold right now.
It's hard to know when this reached or will reach bubble point. They are rare-ish, but then if Gronan is right, then the market is pretty small too.
If prices are being driven by a very small number of (probably elderly) collectors, then yeah I would expect that the market should collapse at some point as that market ages out of existence. And paper collectibles are prone to boom and bust anyway. I wouldn't be surprised to see a big correction, like a 90% drop, in the next 5-10 years. Maybe even sooner.
EDIT: one of the things that drives bubbles in collectibles is when people see the appreciation and start buying them as an investment rather than a collectible. I'm not certain that has happened much, so maybe not a bubble at all. But still, a market with an uncertain future.
Quote from: Zirunel;1006783It's hard to know when this reached or will reach bubble point. They are rare-ish, but then if Gronan is right, then the market is pretty small too.
If prices are being driven by a very small number of (probably elderly) collectors, then yeah I would expect that the market should collapse at some point as that market ages out of existence. And paper collectibles are prone to boom and bust anyway. I wouldn't be surprised to see a big correction, like a 90% drop, in the next 5-10 years. Maybe even sooner.
EDIT: one of the things that drives bubbles in collectibles is when people see the appreciation and start buying them as an investment rather than a collectible. I'm not certain that has happened much, so maybe not a bubble at all. But still, a market with an uncertain future.
This is why I'm really interested in seeing publicly available sales data on the Ebay auctions. The whole
"private listing" aspect of an Ebay auction runs contrary to what Ebay is all about, which is an open sale on the open market. Right now the prices are, as far as I can tell, being driven by supply and demand.
When looking at the sellers, I'm seeing a small number of elderly collectors with repeated sales, which would be the dealers, who buy up the games at gaming convention and trade show auctions, as well as directly, being responsible for about half of the auction sales, and as a result, set the overall mean sales price for vintage gaming. The other half are individuals who are the direct owners of the rare games that just want to cash them out, and earn a tidy profit, and who sometimes (as in the case of the $96 whitebox sale last summer) probably don't. When I sold my Whitebox at GenCon in 2008, it was not because I had stopped playing OD&D, but because I had one extra boxed set, and the price was taking off. Just selling a few extra odds and ends out of my collection netted me $850 back in 2008. I took home more than my weekly paycheck, just attending that show. In 2006 at GenCon, I had three guys show up for a OD&D game, and no one showed up for the second game at all. At GenCon 2008 my table was full for every old school session I ran, and from 2011 on, my table has always been full of people interested in playing the Original D&D.
The buyers, are not elderly collectors, they are younger guys, like Matt Finch, and them other kids all in Hollywood that are playing D&D. They learn the current game (like 5e for example, that is their gateway to the RPG hobby), but then want to see how the game was played when it all began. With publicly available auction data, I can look at the bidders and buyers and tell that they are not regular dealers because their Ebay account only has a few transactions. I can also see if they are repeatedly bidding to buy RPGs, or if a particular sale ends up being just a one-time purchase.
The majority of the purchases are unique meaning that a dealer is not openly buying up market share in a bid to manipulate or drive up prices. This is why it's important that auction sales remain open too so unethical buying patterns can be detected, especially now, when old-school RPG games and supplements are actually valuable.
What my Original D&D Gaming Table looks like these days:
(https://i.imgur.com/3bVMMlq.jpg)
Two out of Seven are greybeards in this first photo...
Last year at UCon
(https://i.imgur.com/2H25Gw1.jpg)
Look at the players at the tables behind me... This is the Old School RPGs room, with only a handful of Greybeards.
1e ADNnD Game last year at UCon
(https://i.imgur.com/IwOuXM0.jpg)
In my
5e D&D home group I'm the oldest. There' another guy a couple years younger than me, four players in their 20's and two teens playing.
In my
0D&D home group, Three twenty something players, one thirty something player... and currently one teenager. I'm the old guy in my group.
In my online
Star Wars game I'm the oldest player, have several thirty somethings playing , a couple guys twenty-something, and two teenagers.
At
GaryCon this year... well yeah... lots of older players, a few that even make me look young, heh... But that's
GaryCon.
The Market is not aging out of existence,... There is a completely new younger market, and it's much larger than the original market was.
Like for example
Pax Unplugged, ehh? Where they now are doing a boardgame, card, and RPG games convention.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1006788This is why I'm really interested in seeing publicly available sales data on the Ebay auctions. The whole "private listing" aspect of an Ebay auction runs contrary to what Ebay is all about, which is an open sale on the open market. Right now the prices are, as far as I can tell, being driven by supply and demand.
When looking at the sellers, I'm seeing a small number of elderly collectors with repeated sales, which would be the dealers, who buy up the games at gaming convention and trade show auctions, as well as directly, being responsible for about half of the auction sales, and as a result, set the overall mean sales price for vintage gaming. The other half are individuals who are the direct owners of the rare games that just want to cash them out, and earn a tidy profit, and who sometimes (as in the case of the $96 whitebox sale last summer) probably don't. When I sold my Whitebox at GenCon in 2008, it was not because I had stopped playing OD&D, but because I had one extra boxed set, and the price was taking off. in 2006 at GenCon, I had three guys show up for a OD&D game, and no one showed up for the second game at all. At GenCon 2008 my table was full for every old school session I ran, and from 2011 on, my table has always been full of people interested in playing the Original D&D.
The buyers, are not elderly collectors, they are younger guys, like Matt Finch, and them other kids all in Hollywood that are playing D&D. They learn the current game (like 5e for example, that is their gateway to the RPG hobby), but then want to see how the game was played when it all began. With publicly available auction data, I can look at the bidders and buyers and tell that they are not regular dealers because their Ebay account only has a few transactions. I can also see if they are repeatedly bidding to buy RPGs, or if a particular sale ends up being just a one-time purchase.
The majority of the purchases are unique meaning that a dealer is not openly buying up market share in a bid to manipulate or drive up prices. This is why it's important that auction sales remain open too so unethical buying patterns can be detected, especially now, when old-school RPG games and supplements are actually valuable.
What my Original D&D Gaming Table looks like these days:
(https://i.imgur.com/3bVMMlq.jpg)
Two out of Seven are greybeards in this first photo...
Last year at UCon
(https://i.imgur.com/2H25Gw1.jpg)
Look at the players at the tables behind me... This is the Old School RPGs room, with only a handful of Greybeards.
1e ADNnD Game last year at UCon
(https://i.imgur.com/IwOuXM0.jpg)
In my 5e D&D home group I'm the oldest. There' another guy a couple years younger than me, four players in their 20's and two teens playing.
In my 0D&D home group, Three twenty something players, one thirty something player... and currently one teenager. I'm the old guy in my group.
In my online Star Wars game I'm the oldest player, have several thirty somethings playing , a couple guys twenty-something, and two teenagers.
At GaryCon this year... well yeah... lots of older players, a few that even make me look young, heh... But that's GaryCon.
The Market is not aging out of existence,... There is a completely new younger market, and it's much larger than the original market was.
Like for example Pax Unplugged, ehh? Where they now are doing a boardgame, card, and RPG games convention.
This is all pretty interesting, a younger cohort of OD&D players is gladdening for sure. To whatever extent they decide to collect original copies, they may end up supporting the white box market more than the Brown box market, but still....
The "Hollywood kids" angle hadn't occurred to me at all.
I don't think these prices are that crazy. Figure how many players in the 1970s and 1980s are now billionaires (or at least mega-wealthy) in the video game or financial industries.
People spend vastly huger sums on antique cars, firearms, baseball cards, paintings, not to mention...er...antiques themselves.
But the love (childhood callback) of these RPG things transcends a lot of simply "ooh, shiny" that might be the case in other collectables.
You know one thing this makes me wounder is if any of these buyers are picking it up to own for A year or 2 make them selves A dubiously legal copy via A photo copy machine or what have you and passing there copy on.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1006849You know one thing this makes me wounder is if any of these buyers are picking it up to own for A year or 2 make them selves A dubiously legal copy via A photo copy machine or what have you and passing there copy on.
I dunno, maybe you could forge the pages convincingly; the covers would be harder unless you got a supply of the right cardstock. But I think gamedaddy was right to highlight the boxes. Boxes in good collectible condition are probably a lot rarer than books in good collectible condition. I expect it's the good box that really distinguishes a high-end set. I suppose you could forge those too, but it must be more difficult.
Quote from: Zirunel;1006876I dunno, maybe you could forge the pages convincingly; the covers would be harder unless you got a supply of the right cardstock. But I think gamedaddy was right to highlight the boxes. Boxes in good collectible condition are probably a lot rarer than books in good collectible condition. I expect it's the good box that really distinguishes a high-end set. I suppose you could forge those too, but it must be more difficult.
I'm not referring to forgery I am talking about being that guy who says 4K for an rpg is to much so they buy A copy to own long enough to make A copy for there own use and then selling to to get there money back out.
Kinda like how people used to back in the vhs days take A tape they had rented and copy it over to A blank tape the 1st time they watched it for there own use.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1006888I'm not referring to forgery I am talking about being that guy who says 4K for an rpg is to much so they buy A copy to own long enough to make A copy for there own use and then selling to to get there money back out.
Kinda like how people used to back in the vhs days take A tape they had rented and copy it over to A blank tape the 1st time they watched it for there own use.
Oh okay gotcha. Well, if you just want the content for your own use, I think there are cheaper ways. Pdf is only a few bucks, and physical white box is pretty reasonable, for a couple hundred you can just buy one and keep it. Still not much more expensive than buying the core books plus supplements for a modern rpg. Probably cheaper really.
Quote from: Motorskills;1006826I don't think these prices are that crazy. Figure how many players in the 1970s and 1980s are now billionaires (or at least mega-wealthy) in the video game or financial industries.
People spend vastly huger sums on antique cars, firearms, baseball cards, paintings, not to mention...er...antiques themselves.
But the love (childhood callback) of these RPG things transcends a lot of simply "ooh, shiny" that might be the case in other collectables.
Never mind collectibles, if you go by the Acaeum prices, people spend more than that for a snowmobile that they will run into the ground in a couple of years, or for a jet ski, or for a particularly nice mountain bike.
Quote from: Zirunel;1006890Oh okay gotcha. Well, if you just want the content for your own use, I think there are cheaper ways. Pdf is only a few bucks, and physical white box is pretty reasonable, for a couple hundred you can just buy one and keep it. Still not much more expensive than buying the core books plus supplements for a modern rpg. Probably cheaper really.
Well yes and no what you need to remember is the wood grain set had different content then white box content that can't be legally reprinted with out some massive negotiation(with the Tolkien estate) that wotc will never do and makes it A very different discussion.
Much like how some groups of video gamers are starting to condone piracy for extremely expensive games.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1006888I'm not referring to forgery I am talking about being that guy who says 4K for an rpg is to much so they buy A copy to own long enough to make A copy for there own use and then selling to to get there money back out.
Depends on whether there are PDFs (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/28306/ODD-Dungeons--Dragons-Original-Edition-0e?it=1)available or not.
A bigger issue are the one of kind stuff of historical interest that a collector won't let anybody see.
If I may make an observation from my personal experience in dealing with 'professional collectors', the goods wind up in a box on a shelf (one collector told me that she kept everything in Sterilte boxes on stainless steel shelves - this was the person who told me that my shelves were 'inappropriate") and sit there while they "appreciate in value" so that they can be resold in some distant future. I was told that actually using any of my collections in game play was a crime, and that I was being irresponsible and not able to appreciate the potential value of them to the serious collector. Another type is collection to have the most stuff - dealt with a couple of those - and they get into Facebook fights over who's got the most toys in the pile.
Me, I play with the stuff; that's why we did it, back in the day. I feel that embalming it and squirreling it away 'for later' doesn't do the hobby much good. But, what do I know, eh? :)
Before I begin I would like to say I was rather tired when making my last several posts and didn't realize until after I got off for the night that they could be miss construe so with that in mind.
I am not in any way trying to endorse or condone piracy. I am simply wondering if some people may be doing such.Quote from: estar;1006997Depends on whether there are PDFs (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/28306/ODD-Dungeons--Dragons-Original-Edition-0e?it=1)available or not.
A bigger issue are the one of kind stuff of historical interest that a collector won't let anybody see.
I very much agree with you regarding the habit of collectors to not let there historically valuable collections see the light of day it's actually A big problem.
And yes the 6th printing is available in pdf (and should be legaly purchased) I was unclear because i was tired I was referring to the earlier printings particularly the "wood box" printing and other printings that would still contain the Tolkien references.
From https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html
QuoteSixth (1977)
White box, showing a wizard and some orcs (like Fourth and Fifth), but now has a starburst stating "Original Collector's Edition" (this was done to differentiate it from the D&D Basic Set, which had just been released), and the price has been removed
Outside cover of Men & Magic shows a warrior standing with a sword and shield
Outside covers of all three booklets have no price
Inside covers of all three booklets are now the same color (parchment) as the exteriors, and do not state any printing number (though they still have the "copyright 1974" line)
References to Hobbits and Ents have been changed to Halflings and Treants (see page 9 of Men & Magic), due to copyright conflicts with the Tolkien estate (with the exception of a single leftover reference on pg 6 to Hobbits!). Furthermore, many other infringements on Tolkien's literary license were excised or changed; notably, references to Balrogs, Nazgul, and even several mentions of Tolkien himself
Men & Magic catalog in the back has prices
Internal typeface is in an easy-to-read font
This print originally came shrinkwrapped
Often referred to as the "OCE" set
Thanks to Matthew Foster and Neville Ridley-Smith for help with this info
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1007013If I may make an observation from my personal experience in dealing with 'professional collectors', the goods wind up in a box on a shelf (one collector told me that she kept everything in Sterilte boxes on stainless steel shelves - this was the person who told me that my shelves were 'inappropriate[) and sit there while they "appreciate in value" so that they can be resold in some distant future. I was told that actually using any of my collections in game play was a crime, and that I was being irresponsible and not able to appreciate the potential value of them to the serious collector. Another type is collection to have the most stuff - dealt with a couple of those - and they get into Facebook fights over who's got the most toys in the pile.
Me, I play with the stuff; that's why we did it, back in the day. I feel that embalming it and squirreling it away 'for later' doesn't do the hobby much good. But, what do I know, eh? :)
I believe you I have bumped in to A few of those types though I find in gaming they are greatly outnumbered by the playing collectors like you and myself. Video game collectors tend to especially be like us I think mostly because the gameplay has so much to do with setting the games value.
Quote from: kosmos1214;1007085I believe you I have bumped in to A few of those types though I find in gaming they are greatly outnumbered by the playing collectors like you and myself. Video game collectors tend to especially be like us I think mostly because the gameplay has so much to do with setting the games value.
I would really like to think and hope so!!! The people who have been arriving on my doorstep all seem to have dollar signs in their eyes when the see the basement. :(
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1007138I would really like to think and hope so!!! The people who have been arriving on my doorstep all seem to have dollar signs in their eyes when the see the basement. :(
Yeah I understand your pain my video game collection is starting to get that out of people. The worse part is in my case all of it was bought back when they weren't worth any thing and now they are starting to be quite valuable.
I mean to an extent I understand the reaction because it's some what normal. I suppose it's my fault to some extent for having expensive tastes.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1006788ut that's GaryCon.
The Market is not aging out of existence,... There is a completely new younger market, and it's much larger than the original market was.
You don't have to tell me. I was a guest of honor at a local gaming Con here yesterday. Out of well over 100 people I was one of three with grey hairs.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1007138I would really like to think and hope so!!! The people who have been arriving on my doorstep all seem to have dollar signs in their eyes when the see the basement. :(
Not really, at least in terms of the people who are paying huge amounts of money. Nobody who actually wants to play the game will spend thousands of dollars on a brown-box D&D set when they can get the PDFs for $15.
Gameplay has fuckall to do with setting the value of a "collector item," it's all about rarity.
Resurrecting this thread to show a set that went for $13,080. Wow!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Dungeons-and-Dragons-D-D-Wood-grain-Set-1st-Print-1974/232619938915?hash=item36293a9463:g:z3AAAOSwR2RaNZ4i
So, with provenience I could probably get $20,000 at least for mine. Wow.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1019664So, with provenience I could probably get $20,000 at least for mine. Wow.
I think you said you would never sell, but if you (or your NOK) decides to, I would recommend doing some marketing first, increase the chances of hitting that 20K.
Spend a couple of months spreading the word on fora etc.
Include with the item a personalized essay or somesuch, describing your personal history with that very set. That will increase the value / attractiveness.
No, I'm not going to sell.
But Paul Stormberg knows the history of this set as do several other people, and I will indeed advise my survivors to do just that. It's even autographed and personalized by Dave Arneson. Sadly, I never got Gary to sign it.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1019810No, I'm not going to sell.
But Paul Stormberg knows the history of this set as do several other people, and I will indeed advise my survivors to do just that. It's even autographed and personalized by Dave Arneson. Sadly, I never got Gary to sign it.
Nice Premium-Free life insurance policy. :D
When and if the girls unload my boxed sets of EPT, should they enclose a pack of Swisher Sweets in each one for that Authentic Tekumel Flavor / Stench? :)
Not to mention size XL white Tshirts that are too tatty and beat up for homeless people to wear.
I thought I saw some story recently about a set found in Brazil?
$9,677.00 + $12 for shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DUNGEONS-DRAGONS-1st-EDITION-WOODGRAIN-BOX-SET-1974-/192453455670?autorefresh=true
Quote from: RPGPundit;1020553I thought I saw some story recently about a set found in Brazil?
Yes, was one of Dave Arneson's boxed sets. He left it down there when he was visiting some years back.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1020553I thought I saw some story recently about a set found in Brazil?
It wasn't found, the previous owner died recently. The copy was a gift from Dave Arneson to Douglas Quinta Reis, one of the founders of Devir Livraria and a central figure in the creation of our market and community. Yesterday was Douglas' birthday, and also our first "National RPG Day" in his honor. :)
Here it is on display:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2248[/ATTACH]
Crazy!