Well, coz it's fun...

Also, a propos marketing: True story, because told by Monte Cook himself (on a gamingreport thread in response to a Dancey column IIRC)--

At one point, Wizards marketing personnel campaigned for ditching the "Dragons" in "Dungeons & Dragons." Reason: There are dragons in MtG also. This might unduly confuse the customer base.

It would have to be such a radical change in approach/orchestrated conspiracy to destroy the line that it will probably never happen.

D&D has enough of a name that even if the old grognards & current fans were put off from buying it, there'd still be new gamers who'd pick up a copy.  
The only scenario that seems realistic and possible is Warthur's.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat would be absolutely brilliant.

RPGPundit

I disagree. You do not sell apples by marketing oranges.

Bill

Quote from: James J SkachThis is a sibling thread to one started by estar.

D&D 4.0 has come out, but it doesn't seem to be selling very well. In fact, there are some of the first copies shipped still sitting on the shelf.

Why? What would have to change from 3.5 to 4.0 to make D&D 4.0 flop?


NOTE: Please, please, please try to keep the debates over whether or not D&D is a good game or not to a minimum...

I would say a fundamental change to the mechanics that would be the part that flops.

Why would there be a change in the mechanics? Wizards/Hasbro perceives tabletop gaming to be a declining market and trys to expand D&D's appeal by changing how it played.

Possibilities include

1) Some sort of collectible card resolution introduced into the game.
2) Miniatures are now a fundamental element. May have a collectible aspect.
3) The Internet is now a fundamental part of the game. Not a MMORPG but something on-line that is supposed to replicate and enhance the experience of gaming around the table top.

D&D still would have classes, levels, and many of the classic mechanics. It would be reflected in the new mechanics.

While I can't say what a new D&D mechanic will look like. I can say it would be the result of Hasbro/Wizard doing a lot of data mining to get the product line unrooted from the tabletop. It would take advantage of experience in collectible card games, and collectible miniatures.

And it may very well be if they go down this route that the new mechanic will be unpopular and a dud. "You mean I got to buy booster pack at $5 a pop to play D&D 4? Screw that!"

I don't think is this a probable route, it is possible however, and I feel the most likely way a D&D 4.0 can be a undeniably bad rpg.  I am sure people will be debating that with this "new mechanic" that D&D 4 is even a true rpg.

Last I feel this route only would be considered if tabletop gaming is seen as a declining market. (Which is an involved topic in of itself.)

Rob Conley

But D&D is a game. It should be aggresively marketed in toy stores right next to RISK, Clue, and Monopoly.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAlso, why the fuck are we talking about 4.0 when it has been absolutely confirmed now that there will be NO 4.0 until AT LEAST 2009?

RPGPundit

Because we aren't talking about 4.0. We are talking about what it would take for D&D/D20 being dethroned. 4.0 is term I choose for instead of having to type "the next version" all the damn time.

This thread is about what it would take for a new edition to be a undeniably bad game.

Finally by doing this type of exercise you attempt to learn more about why D&D works and is leading rpg on the market.

Quote from: RPGPunditBut D&D is a game. It should be aggresively marketed in toy stores right next to RISK, Clue, and Monopoly.

RPGPundit

So what qualities of D&D would make a traditional toy store marketing campaign successful?

My opinion that current D&D is too much based upon printed books which wouldn't work in toy stores. But a D&D 4 based on miniatures may do well here.

Quote from: RPGPunditBut D&D is a game. It should be aggresively marketed in toy stores right next to RISK, Clue, and Monopoly.

RPGPundit

I did not say anything about product placement... In fact, one of my points was that they would drop out of mass and go to hobby stores only. Marketing a game as a toy is a bad move. Marketing a game as a game is a smart move. In general, marketing a product ans other than what it is, usually, results in, at best, a short run success.

So, no, marketing a D&D as a toy would be bad.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPunditBut D&D is a game. It should be aggresively marketed in toy stores right next to RISK, Clue, and Monopoly.

RPGPundit

One of the great missed opportunities for the d20 Star Wars RPG was not selling it in the action figure aisle during its early years.  Every action figure and vehicle should have come with a D20 Star Wars stat card.

Quote from: RPGPunditBut D&D is a game. It should be aggresively marketed in toy stores right next to RISK, Clue, and Monopoly.

RPGPundit

This would sell D&D like crazy...If they could get a box game in Toystores/Walmarts I will go out on a limb here and say they would Decatize (gosh, I hope thats a real word) their sales!

Quote from: HinterWeltSo, no, marketing a D&D as a toy would be bad.

Sure "marketing" 3e as a toy == dumb.  But marketing starts and directs design. So if instead of apples you made something more orange-like (see estar's post for an example) then selling it like oranges makes a lot more sense.

EDIT: Of course a risky tact to take. If misjudge your current customers and fail to hit the new target you are indeed hooped.

Quote from: blakkieSure "marketing" 3e as a toy == dumb.  But marketing starts and directs design. So if instead of apples you made something more orange-like (see estar's post for an example) then selling it like oranges makes a lot more sense.

Yes, but do you have an RPG at that point. I do not doubt, nay I believe, that making a toy based on D&D would do well. It is a solid theme. You could even make a toy-like RPG, it's called a minis game.

However, to take an RPG (assuming the concept of 4.0 would be an RPG) and marketing it in the manner of a toy (packaging it to resemble a toy, dropping ads aimed a children and only children, attempting to convince mom that it is educational) I do not think would work.

However, you will note that HinterWelt is not dominating the RPG market so what do I know.

Bill

Edit myself: You are correct though, design of product and product conception should be modeled with your marketing plan in tact. Though, as noted, I do not think a 4e "toy" inspired RPG would go on to bigger and getter success.

Quote from: KrakaJakThis would sell D&D like crazy...If they could get a box game in Toystores/Walmarts I will go out on a limb here and say they would Decatize (gosh, I hope thats a real word) their sales!

Ummm, DND is in mass now. I would not argue with a split marketing plan where an intro boxed product was produced as an entry product however, contrary to the internet, that is not a slam dunk. A lot of overhead can rip a marketing plan to shreads in mass and things can go horribly wrong real fast. Just look at TSR and their slam dunked novels...ouch.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltUmmm, DND is in mass now. I would not argue with a split marketing plan where an intro boxed product was produced as an entry product however, contrary to the internet, that is not a slam dunk. A lot of overhead can rip a marketing plan to shreads in mass and things can go horribly wrong real fast. Just look at TSR and their slam dunked novels...ouch.

Bill

TSR's novels failed because they all sucked donkey dick.  It's an unrelatable comparison.

A more adequate comparison to what Kraka is describing, was D&D Basic Set, and it's frequent presence in toy stores and board game shelves all over the damn place.  

One of my old group got into gaming when his mother found the D&D boxed set at a local dept. store and gave it to him for Christmas.  That was how a LOT of people got into D&D during it's heyday, and you'd think that Hasbro, being a toy company, would be all gungho about a strategy like that, but either they're unfamiliar with the history, or I think, just don't care.  

I think Hasbro doesn't give two shits about D&D.  It's that thing they let WotC put out in their spare time so long as it's still at least bringing a profit, to keep them happy also pumping out Pokemon, Magic, DuelMasters, or whatever the latest faddy card game is.  They dip in the trough for some licensing revenue now and then by spinning off a video game or a movie, but mostly I don't think they care.

Well I happen to stumble in here from the Icar site (Rob thanks for putting all that work out there for everyone's free use) and read a bunch of this thread.

As has been stated, a well put together box set containing clear, clean, easy to follow rules that was supported by good black and white interior artwork like the red box set would be a great idea. This is where I got my start with D&D playing with some guys from school. Seems our mothers all found this game at the local department store on an individual basis about the same time. We three friends three friends soon had recruited a few more interested players and were having a blast.

Then my aunta and uncle came over for a visit and we got to talking and they said my cousin had started playing recently. Well to make a fat trilogy short he had then he and a friend pooled there funds and bought the three main AD&D books. Once we got together the rest was history.

I look to my right and on the shelf next to me is a complete set of 1st ed. AD&D books. They are the result of a little red box with a cool picture of a fighter fighting a red dragon on the cover.

They need a good intro game that is complete and easy, but based on the rules of the real money maker. I am not talking about a lite version or an intro too, but a good game like basic D&D was. I have played it off and on since then as well as many other incarnations and varients. Basic was the gateway drug to the hard stuff and I have parted with thousands of dollars over the years because of it.

Thousands? Yep; Basic, first, second, and third editions of D&D/AD&D, WoD, HERO, Pendragon, Top Secret, Twilight 2000, gurps, boot hill, Magic the Gathering, not to mention My miniature collection that spans 20 years and includes over 400 pieces. Because of the association it also lead me to games like Axis & Allies, Titan, and Wabbit Wampage of all things. Oh lets not forget the munchkin card game.

By now you should be getting the point I am trying to make. Oh and so you know I wasn't your typical geek, as a mater of fact I was a long hair heavy metal pot head that was way to cool to hang with geeks, but this game was so cool not only did I hang with geeks, but brought some more cool dudes over to the geek side.

All of that is the result of one box set game. Seems like a great way to hook a life time customer for the whole industry as well as the company.

I don't know if  Iwill be back here to follow up this post or not but I wanted to give my two cents worth.