Quote from: Abyssal MawActually I kinda agree with Merten's argument, because I saw a serious attempt at redefining the word "fun" (and thus jargonizing it) by the indie crowd. As in this post- if you follow it as far as comment #4, you can see the actual bait and switch.

Yea, that's some pretty shocking stuff right there.  I remembered when I first read it.

I love how the Theory crowd goes around claiming "we don't judge your fun", and there is none other than VINCE FUCKING BAKER doing precisely that, stating explicitly that games that fail to "explore theme" are inferior to other games; and that fun, in fact, does not mean "having a good time gaming"; it means "doing a profound exploration of deep issues", and anything else is "NOT FUN" by definition.

Again, theory guys? This is why you're despised.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAgain, theory guys? This is why you're despised.

Because people who want to despise us consistently take things way the hell out of context and inflate them into gigantic straw-men to beat on?

Yep.  Knew that.

But that was not taken out of context at all. Several  Cornell Richardeson types went right from there and crowed that they had solved the mythical "20 minutes of fun in 4 hours problem".

Of course, they mainly did this by redefining the word fun into "thematic", but I also recall seeing advice to quit your gaming group if 'they' didnt understand what "fun" was', or if you were the only guy who had a problem (as so many forgers are), you were advised to drop them, because they weren't actually having fun. There's the famous "99% of all gamers don't actually have fun" claim, and the strangely non-ironic thread about how indie authors should get special treatment at conventions because they know so much about fun. (note the last two bullets).  This was funny because the original motivation of the thread is a complaint that their panels and slots don't actually get much attendance.

So when I say "there was a serious attempt to redefine the word fun", I feel like I'm pretty much completely in context.  

And as for straw man argument? Listen, we are whomping the crud out of this thing here! Not because it's a "straw man", but simply because it is a bullshit idea that needs to be taken down with extreme violence.

If it were a straw man, then you'd concede my argument. You'd be all "well of course we can't redefine fun.. thats ridiculous..."

For the love of FUCK people.  You got theory discussion in a humor thread.

Stop it.

Quote from: Abyssal Mawclaim, and the strangely non-ironic thread about how indie authors should get special treatment at conventions because they know so much about fun. (note the last two bullets).  This was funny because the original motivation of the thread is a complaint that their panels and slots don't actually get much attendance.

Holy fucking christ! :jaw-dropping:

These guys are far more batshit insane out of touch with reality than even I could ever have imagined.  

"Our games sell less and people aren't interested in coming to our panels, therefore we should get treated better than any other GMs even though no one knows who the fuck we are, and should even be treated better than real industry people because we provide the greater service to cons of allowing people to bask in our intellectual glory!"

I mean, holy shit on a stick, and people call ME an egomaniac!

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal MawIf it were a straw man, then you'd concede my argument. You'd be all "well of course we can't redefine fun.. thats ridiculous..."

Oh, dude, of course we can't redefine fun.  That's ridiculous.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw...the strangely non-ironic thread about how indie authors should get special treatment at conventions because they know so much about fun. (note the last two bullets).

Jeezus H. Christ. Is he actually fucking serious? "Con organizers! Twelve guys in the crowd have heard of me! I demand staff, ass-kissing, free gifts, and special rights above and beyond other con GMs because I'm too fucking busy running my scheduled games - which no-one attends - to bother with your petty 'rules'."

Man, between this and my recent brush with Swinedom, sometimes those of you in Pundit's Magic Castle From Which We Sallied Forth With d20 (Without Ever Having The Tiniest Fucking Thing To Do With It) To Forever Save The World Of Gaming And Free The People From The Tyranny Of White Wolf start to seem like you're somehow making sense.

Second time I've seen you mention this brush with Swinedom. Clearly you want to talk about it, so what's up?

Quote from: RPGPunditHoly fucking christ! :jaw-dropping:

I got so mad at that post that I started a new thread just to rail against it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenJimBob actually said it best, once, when he talked about fun, satisfaction, and other forms of enjoyment.

I can't find that post, but it was good stuff.

Which is why I'm baffled by his jumping at Merten.

Since Garry flipped out at theory discussion in this thread, it seemed only polite to start a new thread on "fun" and "fulfilment".

Quote from: Elliot WilenSecond time I've seen you mention this brush with Swinedom. Clearly you want to talk about it, so what's up?

Eh, wouldn't say I -want- to talk about, it's just that I was pretty shocked to discover they were real. It's like if one day, out of the blue, the government aliens the bearded filthy guy on the street corner is yelling about suddenly landed in a black helicopter and really did extract an implant from his brain.

But there's a thread on the Big Purple about showing a lot of people who've never seen them before what RPGs are like, and quite a few people want them to be shown things that even I'm willing to say aren't RPGs. One in particular even goes so far as to decry showing them a game that uses things like dice and a GM as "tired". It was astounding to realize none of them thought that demonstration would have to end with "Most roleplaying games, however, are absolutely nothing like what I've showed you here".

I can link people if they'd like it, or put it in a new thread, or something. I was just sorta...reeling from the discovery that they were real.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI can link people if they'd like it, or put it in a new thread, or something. I was just sorta...reeling from the discovery that they were real.

Swine is a bit of a red herring in terms of it's usage IMHO because most often it's used against a specific kind of playstyle/game rather than against folks of any kind (of playstyles) who think that their gaming is superior to others.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSwine is a bit of a red herring in terms of it's usage IMHO because most often it's used against a specific kind of playstyle/game rather than against folks of any kind (of playstyles) who think that their gaming is superior to others.

This one's both. That specific playstyle, and one of the major advocates of that playstyle claiming flat out that his playstyle is better than the "tired" play that made this fucking hobby, and which millions of gamers enjoy every time they sit down at a table. It's the suggestion that people who don't know anything about roleplaying should have it demonstrated with something like PTA or something else that would "demonstrate how gaming has evolved and is contributing to the creation of narratives". Not showing them what the hobby is, but what the Swine would -like- it to be.

Please provide a link.

Because you asked so nicely. - CAUTION. This link goes to an rpg.net thread.