I ran across this blog post (http://www.brainleakage.com/home/the-implied-apocalypse-of-dungeons-dragons?fbclid=IwAR0aRTtyhqDyFq1cKHkEcbS__hHoYpmKeQ0gUUkP_vvJIY0ED4EGI4zxFGE) in my feed and thought it was worthy of discussion with a small expansion.
Quote from: Daniel J. DavisTHE IMPLIED APOCALYPSE OF DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
Last week, I talked a little about the corporate same-y-ness that overtook later editions of D&D, and how it differed from the kitchen sink, anything goes weirdness of 1st Edition AD&D.
That post was written largely in response to a recent episode of Geek Gab, in which guests P. Alexander and Jeffro Johnson discuss some of the stranger, more overlooked aspects of the game. Once again, I recommend checking it out. The discussion is fascinating, lively, and in-depth.
One of the meatier subjects they breach is the idea that AD&D's implied setting is inherently post apocalyptic.
I had to spend a little time chewing that over, largely because I'm fairly new to the 1st Edition ruleset. I never had much exposure to it as a teen, aside from one group I played with after High School. Even then, it was just a handful of optional rules cribbed from Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures, bolted onto a 2nd Edition chassis.
In a nutshell, the argument is that--independent of campaign setting--the rules of AD&D imply the game takes place in the wake of some unspecified, civilization-ending cataclysm.
?For what it's worth, classic sword and sorcery fiction tends to make this same assumption. Conan's Hyborian Age is perhaps the most famous, taking place thousands of years after "the oceans drank Atlantis." Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique tales are more properly classified as Dying Earth stories, but the effect is the same: the last vestiges of humanity cling to superstition and sorcery on the Earth's last remaining continent. Not to mention The Dying Earth itself, where technology and magic are both remnants of long dead empires, and are completely indistinguishable from one another.
Simply put, without the collapse of some ancient civilization (or several), the landscape wouldn't be littered with ruins for the characters to go dungeon-diving in. But that assumption can hardly be called unique to AD&D. Later editions still feature plenty of ruined temples, lost cities, and dungeon delves, even if they are significantly less lethal than the old school variety.
So what was unique to AD&D that made it inherently apocalyptic? What was missing from the later editions that pointed to a post-cataclysmic world?
According to Geek Gab host Daddy Warpig, the answer is domain level play.
For those of you weaned on newer editions, a quick definition: "Domain" was a word that had nothing to do with the Cleric class back in the day. Rather, it referred to the fact that at 9th level or so, characters would begin to attract loyal followers and build a base of operations.
Furthermore, these weren't just optional rules, buried in an Appendix of the Dungeon Master's Guide. These were class features, listed in the Player's Handbook under each character class' description.
At first glance, that might not seem too apocalyptic. But the rules for Territory Development by Player Characters (found on page 93 of the DMG) are written assuming a vast, sparsely-populated wilderness as the default setting. A wilderness controlled by monsters, and littered with the ruins of countless, long-dead civilizations.
According to these rules, characters building a fortress go through considerable time and expense, selecting a construction site, clearing the area, paying and staffing a garrison, and conducting regular patrols to sweep for monsters. Once construction is complete, these strongholds attract settlers looking for safety and security.
In Warpig's opinion, this doesn't just represent a post apocalyptic style of play. It represents a specific kind of post apocalyptic play. The AD&D apocalypse isn't Mad Max, Warpig says, with humanity dropping into savagery and barbarism. Rather, it's at the point where humanity is climbing out of savagery, retaking and reestablishing civilization in a monster-infested wilderness.
Interestingly enough, I made a nearly identical point a few weeks back in my review of Rutger Hauer's The Blood of Heroes. In fact, a new DM trying to figure out domain play could do much worse than to look at that movie as a blueprint. The sparsely populated desert wastelands. The clumps of agrarian survivors gathered in Dog Towns. The powerful, governing elite clustered in the Nine Cities, demanding tribute and loyalty. The Juggers traveling around, engaging in ritual combat, and scouting new recruits.
Add some roving monsters and some dungeon-diving, and you've got a pretty good representation of what the world looks like according to domain play rules.
Domain play was still around in 2nd Edition, though I vaguely remember the rules for it being a bit more generic and simplified. I can't speak for 3rd, 3.X, or 4th Editions, having never played them. But in 5th Edition, it's entirely gone. Which means in terms of game mechanics, a 9th level character doesn't have any more responsibilities to his community than a 1st level one.
In that sense, it's easy to see Warpig's point. 5th Edition doesn't presume the characters need to establish safe areas, because it assumes there are already enough safe areas. Whatever near-extinction event caused all those ruins the PCs are exploring, 5th Edition's rules imply it's far enough in the past that humanity's overall survival is no longer in question.
But the argument for an "apocalyptic AD&D" doesn't stop there. The Geek Gab folks also spend a good amount of time on Vancian magic.
I've written about the subject before, so I won't repeat myself here. Suffice to say, the Vancian Magic system might be the single strongest argument for an apocalyptic D&D setting. But not in the sense of "fire and forget" spells.
In AD&D, the only way for a Magic-user to learn more spells is to find them, typically by recovering old scrolls or spell books from dungeons. Even then, there's a chance the character will completely fail to understand any spells they do manage to find.
In other words, AD&D Magic-users are a cargo cult, parroting scraps of mostly forgotten spells they barely comprehend, and risking life and limb in the ruins of lost civilizations to find more.
Granted, the "classic" Magic-user still exists in 5th Edition, as the Wizard class. But it exists alongside Warlocks and Sorcerers. And therein lies the difference.
Vancian Magic implies a lot about the setting, but only if it's used in isolation. If an accident of birth or a demon sugar-daddy can grant the same powers as those lost scraps of magic, how lost were they? How fantastical and rare are they now?
In the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide, Gary Gygax spends several paragraphs stressing the the scarcity of magic spells, and how difficult it is for the Magic-user to obtain them. NPC spell casters should be reluctant to divulge their secrets, demanding exorbitant fees, rare magic items, and quests in exchange. It's advice that makes sense, but only if magic is a forgotten art from a lost golden age.
And that's the thing.
That lost and forgotten nature was a base assumption about magic in 1st Edition. Taken along with domain play, the sparsely populated wilderness, and the sheer number of ruins players were expected to encounter, it's obvious the core rules had an apocalyptic setting in mind.
It's interesting reading through the AD&D rulebooks now. Like I mentioned last week, I don't have any personal nostalgia for this edition. So it's not like I'm viewing it though rose-colored glasses. Even so, it's hard not to come away with a feeling that something incredibly cool was lost in the transition to the slicker, more polished game I grew up on.
Thank God for reprints and second hand stores...
(Hopefully, I'm not the only one who recognized the name of Daddy Warpig in this blog post)
Now while this gives us something to digest, I have a small addendum. Since D&D first came out during the height of the Cold War, cold the concept of a post-post-apocalypse setting be the direct result of the Cold War historical environment? Could the "taming" or "wussification" of later settings in D&D be the result of the end of the Cold War and its influences on society in general?
1e DMG is already transitional in that it assumes a Frontier between Civilisation and Savagery - you also see this in EGG's intro to Keep on the Borderlands - "The Realm of Man is Narrow and Constrained..." - so there is Civilisation, which may be expanding or contracting, but definitely exists. More Old West than King Arthur or Mad Max. You see this setup in EGG's World of Greyhawk. OD&D by contrast seems to default to a full Post-Apocalyptic setup, and this is incarnated most fully in Judges' Guild Wilderlands. It inspired 4e D&D's "Points of Light", which has a default post-apocalypse setup in the recent aftermath of the Fall of Nerath, 4e's Rome-analogue. It's very Arthurian. 3e D&D DMG by contrast assumed powerful States and a high degree of urbanisation. Given the 3e magic system, its society-building advice makes suspension of disbelief extremely hard - it's probably the weakest of all D&D editions in that way.
5e defaults to Forgotten Realms, which uses a sort of mild Points of Light setup with many fallen kingdoms but no strong sense of lost glory in the manner of Fallen Nerath.
EGG and the Cold War - I'm not seeing a big influence in core D&D, but Greyhawk's Invoked Devastation & Rain of Colourless Fire clearly invokes nuclear holocaust tropes. I see similar with the influence of post-9/11 anxieties on Paizo's Golarion with its Age of Lost Omens and general sense of a world gone wrong.
Wasn't this posted here originally? I've never heard of that blog.
Also there really weren't "domain" rules in 1e, just some vague guidelines. Not like the Companion set (which I remember buying just to use with AD&D). Nor like the Birthright rules in 2e.
But I think the idea of a golden age and then a cataclysm is pretty common in real world mythology/folklore. Mostly as a way of explaining why things suck so much. (And it's most definitely in Lord of the Rings, where each age is suckier)
Quote from: blog post;1100511Domain play was still around in 2nd Edition, though I vaguely remember the rules for it being a bit more generic and simplified. I can't speak for 3rd, 3.X, or 4th Editions, having never played them. But in 5th Edition, it's entirely gone. Which means in terms of game mechanics, a 9th level character doesn't have any more responsibilities to his community than a 1st level one.
We see the game transition from: Zero, to Hero, to Lord of the manor. - To: Zero, to Hero, to Fantasy Superhero!
And this transition is very much related to the different genre assumptions that the new crop of players and D&D game designers had over past ones.
Quote from: blog post;1100511It's interesting reading through the AD&D rulebooks now. Like I mentioned last week, I don't have any personal nostalgia for this edition. So it's not like I'm viewing it though rose-colored glasses. Even so, it's hard not to come away with a feeling that something incredibly cool was lost in the transition to the slicker, more polished game I grew up on.
That things were "lost in translation" from AD&D to 5e is no surprise. Because in my opinion the words: "fantasy genre" meant something
a bit different to the gamer's who came up playing AD&D than the gamer's who came up playing 3.x-5e.
The late 70's early 80's concepts of Heroic fantasy was influenced by Tolkien, and to just as large an extent by the sword and sorcery genre, with "stuff we thought was cool" about medieval times thrown in. I remember the knights of the round table and Robin hood still being a cool thing back then too.
The Tolkien + Sword and Sorcery + knights mix, of genre assumptions about 'fantasy gaming' is a very different beast to what came later.
By the late 80's to now the sword and sorcery genre was largely replaced by Tolkien epic-fantasy pastiche of various types. Plus the D&D tie in novels that echoed the tropes of epic fantasy - dragon lance and drizzt novels. There is a whole generation of players out there who actually think Terry Brooks was a good author. (And he has the book $ales to prove it!)
And when you compare the two generations influences you can see that they would naturally view the 'fantasy genre' in different ways.
Compare:
Someone who's primary influences were: Tolkien + Sword and Sorcery; Howard, Leiber, Smith + Knights of the round table / Robin hood etc...
vs.
Someone who came up reading: Tolkien + Brooks + Jordan + Dragonlance + Drizzt etc...
And you get two very different outlooks and expectations of what the "fantasy genre' is. Let alone what they think should be the focus of their fantasy gaming.
Yes, of course, there is some cross-over between the generations, and this and that exception; "because I know, blah, blah, blah.." Fuck off. You know what I mean you pedantic ass.
Quote from: Jaeger;1100517We see the game transition from: Zero, to Hero, to Lord of the manor. - To: Zero, to Hero, to Fantasy Superhero!
And this transition is very much related to the different genre assumptions that the new crop of players and D&D game designers had over past ones.
The transition must have come pretty quickly in the games history then because as we can see from the ADnD Fighter XP table the game progression was:
Zero, to Hero, to Super Hero, to Lord [of the manor].
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Quote from: Jaeger;1100517Compare:
Someone who's primary influences were: Tolkien + Sword and Sorcery; Howard, Leiber, Smith + Knights of the round table / Robin hood etc...
vs.
Someone who came up reading: Tolkien + Brooks + Jordan + Dragonlance + Drizzt etc...
And you get two very different outlooks and expectations of what the "fantasy genre' is. Let alone what they think should be the focus of their fantasy gaming.
Very true. I've thought this for years, but you said it better. :)
To be fair, domain management isn't everyone's cup of tea. Fantasy superhero lets the characters continue to adventure/explore/etc without the baggage of a domain to baby-sit.
Quote from: Shasarak;1100520The transition must have come pretty quickly in the games history then because as we can see from the ADnD Fighter XP table the game progression was:
Zero, to Hero, to Super Hero, to Lord [of the manor].
Ah Ha! So we see where the rot began! A throwaway level title took on a life of its own...
So 3.x to 5e are all AD&D
E8 variants.
It now all makes perfect sense!
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1100571To be fair, domain management isn't everyone's cup of tea. Fantasy superhero lets the characters continue to adventure/explore/etc without the baggage of a domain to baby-sit.
That's why a smart monarch has a Chamberlain - to do the boring stuff, while you go off to crusade against the Livonians.
I don't buy the premise that D&D implied an apocalypse in the past. What I always thought it implied was an old, layered world history, like the Dying Earth. Or for that matter , the Middle Ages or Renaissance, where there were ruins and remnants of the past all around, but a cataclysm is not necessarily part of the historical consciousness.
Forgotten Realms did. In my opinion they borrowed heavily from concepts that Talislanta (which is very Dying Earth influenced)established narratively, replicated in the Forgotten Realms: Netheril boxset. Very post-apocalyptic.
Quote from: Jaeger;1100517Compare:
Someone who's primary influences were: Tolkien + Sword and Sorcery; Howard, Leiber, Smith + Knights of the round table / Robin hood etc...
vs.
Someone who came up reading: Tolkien + Brooks + Jordan + Dragonlance + Drizzt etc...
This 100%. Also, the new generational influences of fantasy video games and anime styles, which I personally cannot stand in D&D. Keep that shit in Exalted.
Quote from: Jaeger;1100517And when you compare the two generations influences you can see that they would naturally view the 'fantasy genre' in different ways.
Compare:
Someone who's primary influences were: Tolkien + Sword and Sorcery; Howard, Leiber, Smith + Knights of the round table / Robin hood etc...
vs.
Someone who came up reading: Tolkien + Brooks + Jordan + Dragonlance + Drizzt etc...
And you get two very different outlooks and expectations of what the "fantasy genre' is. Let alone what they think should be the focus of their fantasy gaming.
There's always been a lot of variety in D&D players. In my experience, the only reading one could rely on players knowing - both then and now - is Tolkien. I got into D&D when I was a kid in the 1970s, and I don't think that any of my friends read much of Howard, Lieber, or Smith. I read L. Frank Baum, Ursula Le Guin, Piers Anthony, Terry Brooks, and Stephen Donaldson. Others I knew were into Roger Zelazny, Anne McCaffrey, and/or Michael Moorcock. I think D&D has always had a mishmash of influences - both in its origin and in its players. No one has a common conception of the fantasy genre is, because the fantasy genre has always been very broad.
On the original topic, I think Greyhawk reasonably represents the implied setting of original D&D and AD&D. It's had ancient empires and apocalypses like the Rain of Colorless Fire. But I think it's a stretch to call it "post-apocalyptic".
Quote from: tenbones;1100585Forgotten Realms did. In my opinion they borrowed heavily from concepts that Talislanta (which is very Dying Earth influenced)established narratively, replicated in the Forgotten Realms: Netheril boxset. Very post-apocalyptic.
What do they call apocalypses in the Forgotten Realms?
Tuesday.
To be pendantic, AD&D 1e is actually Post-post-apocalyptic. The actual destruction is far enough in the past that communities and individuals can just now start looking beyond day-to-day survival and towards the larger world and the opportunities it presents.
That said, Post-post-apocalyptic also applies to the tail end of the Dark Ages (i.e. between the fall of Rome and c. AD 1000) and the extremely low population densities could just as easily be attributed to a Midwestern 1970's era understanding of "depopulated" and "wilderness" (even with the expansion in the last 40 years, there are still large swaths of the western states with population densities in the single digits per square kilometer and even today the state of Wisconsin where Gary lived has population density of only about 30/km^2) rather than a deliberate decision to crash the population densities to levels that would make the Black Death look like a mild flu outbreak.
Another sign of this 70's Midwest American filter I think is the discussion Gary included that equated peasants and serfs with slaves and that if you tried to about how if you tried to impose peasant status on the people who flock to you for protection after clearing an area of danger and building a stronghold you WILL have regular revolts against you (versus the actual European history where most of the people who were peasants agreed to that status in exchange for the Lord's protection). The idea that people would willingly subject themselves rather than desire to be free men was just so alien to the mindset of the time that he couldn't imagine revolts against "tyrants" not happening regularly.
So while there is the appearance of a Post-post-apocalyptic world, my hunch is that Gary was actually just attempting to create a fantastic version of Europe c. AD 600-700, but did so through the filter of a Midwestern mindset and the limited resources one could find on the Medieval period in the Mid-70's Midwest (i.e. what books on the subject were available in the Milwaukee Public Library) and the result of that appears far more fantastic than it was intended to be.
When I think post-apoc D&D, the closest thing that comes to mind is 4E's Points of Light:
Quote from: D&D 4e WikiThe written history of the campaign setting describes that several mighty empires have existed throughout history, civilizations of marvels that developed until they encountered their end and their parts were reclaimed by the wild. Ruins of these empires, filled with monsters and sometimes ancient artifacts, dot the wilderness outside villages, towns and cities that provide relative safety for their inhabitants ("points of light" in the darkness of the wild, hence one of the names for the campaign setting). .
4E never thrilled me at the table, but the setting has a lot going for it.
Quote from: Aglondir;1100635When I think post-apoc D&D, the closest thing that comes to mind is 4E's Points of Light
For me it's
Earthdawn
I'd agree with the post-post-apocalyptic for 1E. To me it's the point where things are ready to expand as soon as what's blocking the door is kicked in the teeth; which is your job - go tilt the stable status quo and expand the frontier. Saving the world is a defensive mentality.
But then, that's when everyone expected moon colonies instead of trying to convince people to eat maggots and algae.
I agree with much that has been posted here, although I would attribute the Magic User thing more to the Dying Earth influence than a specific post apocalyptic intent. While a lot of the published settings that were in vogue in late 1e/2e had their own apocalypses, Dark Sun was really based on that premise. I'd be interested in what the genesis for that was.
I think another factor is that eventually the RPGs themselves become fuel for what comes later, rather than just the fantasy novels and medieval history. Longsword is the default 1 handed sword because it was that way in D&D. It is actually a hand and a half sword and something like an arming sword or viking sword would be more appropriate. The Ranger character always has at least the option of a pet now, because of Warcraft and Drizzt. I imagine many players don't know what the big deal is with a black runesword other than it was in some other game, etc.
Quote from: EOTB;1100658But then, that's when everyone expected moon colonies instead of trying to convince people to eat maggots and algae.
What did you think you were going to be eating on the moon colony?
Quote from: Simlasa;1100733What did you think you were going to be eating on the moon colony?
Cheese.
Quote from: Shasarak;1100604What do they call apocalypses in the Forgotten Realms?
Tuesday.
Good point.
I've long associated the implied setting of 1e with the motto of the SCA - "the Middle Ages the way they should have been" - aka no serfdom, no monotheism, and no gunpowder. While the latter group successfully kept D&Disms out of their hobby, AD&D expressed those SCAisms very explicitly.
Quote from: Simlasa;1100733What did you think you were going to be eating on the moon colony?
Ribeye smothered in onions.
It's frustrating to see some of this stuff because there are many things factually incorrect about the initial post.
First, magic-users could create spells in OD&D and AD&D. That's where all the spells such as Tenser's Floating Disk came from. Tenser, Mordenkain, etc were actual PCs. The rules exists in the AD&D DMG (pg 115) although I doubt many people used them.
As to the status of Lords and owning land, this originated not with Gary but with Dave Arneson. The story goes that Dave wanted to do some wargaming but all his players wanted to do was dungeon crawling. So, on one expedition, the players return to the surface after a long dungeon dive only to find the bad guys had captured Castle Blackmoor (the same bad guys that were scheduled to be in the miniatures wargame). Thus, the party was forced to flee into the wilderness and establish their own castles. If you look at Dave's old overland maps, Castle Blackmoor was surrounded on all sides by giant nation and only a small portion, the lands around Lock Gloom (Lake Gloomy), were actual wilderness. Another PC, the Great Svenny, actually built his domain right next to Castle Blackmoor.
So, while a post-apocalyptic game would be fun, there's little to suggest that this was the intended way to set up a D&D campaign world.
Quote from: Shasarak;1100520The transition must have come pretty quickly in the games history then because as we can see from the ADnD Fighter XP table the game progression was:
Zero, to Hero, to Super Hero, to Lord [of the manor].
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Note the EP necessary to make Lord--it's a long hard crawl to that level. This was "name" level, at which point you were rather expected to settle down, build a caster, rule a place. Even if not, a level 9 fighter in AD&D is nothing like the superheroes of later editions, with very little powers that would be distinctly different than what a level 1 fighter had. Even with magical gewgaws, a level 9 fighter still could be overmatched by a dragon; most could die from a single breath weapon attack from the oldest ones, and even if a save was made, two such attacks would prove fatal to many fighters (and dragons got 3 a day...).
BX's Known World setting seems to be one of the exceptions.
But. BECMI introduced Blackmoor and that is most assuredly a post apoc sort of background as Blackmoor advanced its tech, I believe with the assist of aliens, and then accidentally set off an explosion sufficient to shift the planet on its axis, among other disasters from the detonation of I believe an antimatter reactor or something equally high tech.
AD&D by the terrain population rules is where the implied apocalypse idea stems from mostly. On average only about 10 of 100 hexes will have habitation on them and a fair chunk of that may be occupied by monsters holding ruins, or relatively small populations. And that is not even counting dungeons which may be the remnants of dwarven and gnome civilizations or other.
A few of the settings have some sort of cataclysm or such in the past. Same for 2e.
Dragonlance: Gods drop a mountain from orbit on the planet. Things get worse from there with successive disasters.
Red Steel: The gods beat the hell out of eachother and essentially blow up an evil god whos fragments are now mutation inducing rocks that self generate.
Mystarra: Blackmoor exploded and tilted the planet.
Birthright: The gods beat the hell out of eachother and essentially kill themselvs off and whos fragments now manifest as mutation inducing powers.
And of course Greyhawk kicks off with essentially a magical nuclear war that turned a vast area into a lifeless desert.
And of course the ongoing parody of itself that it has become... Forgotten Realms. If something isnt totally re-arranging the landscape every other week then something is TRYING to re-arrange the landscape every other week.
5e alone has had multiple events that could have ended in effectively a new setting.
The evil goddess of Dragons tries to manifest in the material plane.
The evil lords of elements try to manifest in the material plane.
The evil demon lords manifest in the material plane.
The evil Giants want to get an artifact that can freeze the material plane.
The evil super lich wants to manifest a soul eating god on the material plane.
and so on.
Quote from: jeff37923;1100511Now while this gives us something to digest, I have a small addendum. Since D&D first came out during the height of the Cold War, cold the concept of a post-post-apocalypse setting be the direct result of the Cold War historical environment? Could the "taming" or "wussification" of later settings in D&D be the result of the end of the Cold War and its influences on society in general?
Indirectly, through the fantasy literature, maybe. One thing about much of the earlier fantasy (Appendix N and otherwise) was that it rarely paid the bills. At least not by itself. The authors had lived through WWI (or been born shortly thereafter), the great depression, and then WWII. Some of them fought in WWII, and they all knew someone that had, and often someone that died in it. They often had other work outside the arts. Even Fritz Leiber, the child of actors, sometimes did other things on the side. One of the things they often did was write science fiction (of varying levels of "science"), and to them there wasn't always a great divide. The works are less academic.
I'm not sure it's the Cold War itself, but the events leading up to it, followed by the Cold War, definitely led to a certain hardness of thought and manner. It couldn't help but do so.
Dying Earth and the related titles are sardonic. It takes a little of the edge off the hardness. Recently, I finally got around to getting a copy of the Vance space series collectively now called "The Demon Princes". It was originally 5 stories, starting with "The Star King" and ending with "The Book of Dreams". Without spoiling it, it is a story about a man so hard that only near the end does he question the extent to which he will go. No editor would take it today, though as with most of Vance's work, it is far better written than 95% of anything out there.
The Wild West comparison is also apt. It's not post-apocalypse, let alone post-post-apocalypse, but it does share with those settings hard people doing necessary things.
Right. Some of the settings are more frontier than post-apoc.
Or possibly more aptly. Some are more age of exploration into lands that were once grand but have fallen into complete ruin and new kingdoms are growing on the bones of the old.
An interesting example is the old Lodoss War setting for BX.
In that there was in the past a great magic empire. But it was totally overrun and destroyed by barbarian hoards. And before that the gods battled and where one of them fell the land was split off from the mainland, causing more disaster.
I agree both domain management and rare magic have been lost with 5e, and that the default setting (FR) is not points of light.
I like the Wild West analogy the best. The reality is that with civilization comes rules, police, government, structure. Greyhawk (and similar settings) provide loads of player options because there is no wide-spread hyper-powerful authority to restrict player choice (the Empire of Iuz providing an example of this kind of authoritarian space, and a good antagonist for the players). Apocalyptic settings are one way to achieve this power vacuum, which I think is a positive feature of those settings. It's one reason that FR seems so counter-intuitive to me. Any medium to high-magic setting offers too much opportunity for a quasi-government to use that power to restrict its inhabitants. Why wouldn't the 10-20 20th level mages rule the world? Who could stop them? And D&D would be a very different game as an insurrectionist game, as opposed to an exploration and delving game...
Welcome aboard Eirikrautha! Love the old skool Githyanki!
I've definitely run OD&D as an insurrectionist game. Rival liches were the tyrants of the world and lawbreakers were slain and raised as undead. The PCs were effectively always on the run, and it was a really grim campaign. After three TPKs, we brought down the curtain.
Quote from: Psikerlord;1100882I agree both domain management and rare magic have been lost with 5e, and that the default setting (FR) is not points of light.
Aside from Karameikos/Known World and maybee Greyhawk... no D&D setting has remained points of light because way back morons bitched that the settings were "too underpopulated!" and so there was this mad rush to cram a town into just short of every other hex and to populate and describe and categorize every damn square inch.
Which totally loses sight of the original ideal of make of it what you will and the DM and players fill in the blank spaces.
Just change the name of a published setting you like, and do a spin off that makes you happy.
I think I will......
Quote from: Omega;1100919Aside from Karameikos/Known World and maybee Greyhawk... no D&D setting has remained points of light because way back morons bitched that the settings were "too underpopulated!" and so there was this mad rush to cram a town into just short of every other hex and to populate and describe and categorize every damn square inch.
Which totally loses sight of the original ideal of make of it what you will and the DM and players fill in the blank spaces.
Alas and alack. It has the ring of truth to it.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1100890Welcome aboard Eirikrautha! Love the old skool Githyanki!
I've definitely run OD&D as an insurrectionist game. Rival liches were the tyrants of the world and lawbreakers were slain and raised as undead. The PCs were effectively always on the run, and it was a really grim campaign. After three TPKs, we brought down the curtain.
Oh, I'm not saying you can't run it that way! I just never really encountered that very often in AD&D. But I guess being lawbreakers opens the same narrative space as the absence of law, now that I think about it.
Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking for a while, but I haven't been really moved to post (most of the discussions here seemed to get along pretty well without my input *grin*). The fact that I refuse to go back to the Paizo forums, and ENWorld has become mostly an echo chamber, pretty much means this is the only board I've visited recently with any real discussion happening.
Quote from: Omega;1100919Aside from Karameikos/Known World and maybee Greyhawk... no D&D setting has remained points of light because way back morons bitched that the settings were "too underpopulated!" and so there was this mad rush to cram a town into just short of every other hex and to populate and describe and categorize every damn square inch.
Which totally loses sight of the original ideal of make of it what you will and the DM and players fill in the blank spaces.
Alas, alas, this happened to Karameikos too. The whole GAZ line overpopulated and overcivilized the Known World.
Quote from: Omega;1100919Which totally loses sight of the original ideal of make of it what you will and the DM and players fill in the blank spaces.
Have you tried just not buying any more expansions?
That seems like it would work.
Technically D&D is completely post apocalyptic and has been for some time. Every time there has been a new edition they do some kind of huge apocalyptic event. 2nd ed AD&D - 3rd ed had the Vecna Lives/ Die Vecna Die. 1st ed AD&D to 2nd had one though I can't remember the name(Time of Tumult/Eyes of Istus or something like that). Pretty sure 3.5 had one when they made 4th. If I'm wrong on this please don't hesitate to say so.
Quote from: Alamar;1100973Technically D&D is completely post apocalyptic and has been for some time. Every time there has been a new edition they do some kind of huge apocalyptic event. 2nd ed AD&D - 3rd ed had the Vecna Lives/ Die Vecna Die. 1st ed AD&D to 2nd had one though I can't remember the name(Time of Tumult/Eyes of Istus or something like that). Pretty sure 3.5 had one when they made 4th. If I'm wrong on this please don't hesitate to say so.
Time of Troubles was at the end of 1e.
Nothing happened at the end of 2e.
The Spell Plague was at the end of 3e.
The Great Recon was at the end of 4e.
Quote from: Shasarak;1100986Time of Troubles was at the end of 1e.
Nothing happened at the end of 2e.
The Spell Plague was at the end of 3e.
The Great Recon was at the end of 4e.
The Apocalypse at the end of 2E; was called, "Bankruptcy".
Quote from: Razor 007;1100998The Apocalypse at the end of 2E; was called, "Bankruptcy".
That ending only happened in your head, the PCs used the treasure that they stole from the Wizard who lived by the sea to defeat the evil creditors.
Quote from: KingofElfland;1100962Alas, alas, this happened to Karameikos too. The whole GAZ line overpopulated and overcivilized the Known World.
The GAZ series was for BECMI though, Not Karameikos, if I recall right. I would have to dig them out of storage.. BECMI spun off into its own setting which became Mystara. Same place names. Different planet. But yeah the GAZ series crammed every damn map it felt like sometimes.
Quote from: Shasarak;1100963Have you tried just not buying any more expansions?
That seems like it would work.
Expansions are one thing. New lands and places. Filling in all the blanks and populating every hex is a different thing and part therein of the problem that many TSR settings eventually suffered.
Quote from: Omega;1101122Expansions are one thing. New lands and places. Filling in all the blanks and populating every hex is a different thing and part therein of the problem that many TSR settings eventually suffered.
Yes if you follow all of the expansions then the settings fill up, thats true.
And on the other hand, if you just use the original setting then it still has all of the blank spaces that you want and you save money not having to buy each new expansion. Its like a win-win.
Interesting thread.
One element I'd like to add to the mix is that premodern civilizations, by and large, imagined some kind of "Fall" from a "Golden Age" of some kind, perhaps occuring in a cyclical manner (e.g. the Indian yugas). Almost every mythology imagined some variation of Golden Age, Fall, and Renewal. The Fall could involve being kicked out of Eden, a flood, fire, a "star from heaven," and generally was caused by humanity screwing up and the gods punishing us for it. In other words, this is a universal theme to most (premodern) world cultures; I don't know if there was any intentionality on EGG's part, but given that D&D's implied setting is premodern, this makes sense.
Also, given the relatively recent theory of the Younger Dryas Event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas_impact_hypothesis), which seems to be gathering steam--especially after the discovery of a possible impact crater in Greenland (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/massive-crater-under-greenland-s-ice-points-climate-altering-impact-time-humans)--it may be that this mythology is based in actual history. I mean, if nearly all of the world's mythologies has some variation of a "Time Before" and an apocalypse that ended it, maybe there's something to it beyond mere metaphor?
That aside, lost civilizations and an unknown history is an intrinsic part of what makes D&D sing. It can be very evocative and wonder-inspiring. This is a key component of fantasy and science fiction in other genres: the "sense of wonder," of either figuring out what the deal is with that mysterious alien artifact, or who the people were that once lived in these dead ruins (and why do their spirits still haunt them).
I mean, not to get all deep in my first foray into discussion here, but isn't that an essential--even central--aspect of our human experience? The mystery of our origins? Of how we came to be? And the more we learn, the more we realize that we don't know? Do we really understand Stonehenge or the Giza Pyramids or whether there is existence beyond the physical? No matter what theories we come up with, they're just theories and there are always gaps, leading to a kind of eternal mystery of existence.
What I'm getting at is that if nothing else, the apocalypse in the distant past is akin to a literary device that holds the potential to not only provide context for the ruins to be explored, but the opportunity to experience curiosity and even wonder. The mystery of the world that the PCs explore. I've played in games that are all about a defined plot or killing things and taking their stuff or building kingdoms, but for me that sense of wonder and mystery about Terra Incognita is always tickling at the edge of awareness.
Thank you so much for the Younger Dryas Event!!! That's awesome!
Must use must use must use!
Quote from: Mercurius;1101126Interesting thread.
One element I'd like to add to the mix is that premodern civilizations, by and large, imagined some kind of "Fall" from a "Golden Age" of some kind, perhaps occuring in a cyclical manner (e.g. the Indian yugas). Almost every mythology imagined some variation of Golden Age, Fall, and Renewal. The Fall could involve being kicked out of Eden, a flood, fire, a "star from heaven," and generally was caused by humanity screwing up and the gods punishing us for it.
'Kicked out of Eden' myths are more about loss of childhood innocence. Myths like 'The Flood', which we see in a bunch of different cultures - did the Roman version in school Latin class, part of Ovid's Metamorphoses AIR - definitely are Apocalypse myths.
I like the Greenland impact crater as a likely world ending thing for my Primeval Thule campaign, but I don't think the Younger Dryas was the source of the flood myths; they date at earliest from several thousand years later, when massive flooding in the fertile crescent region likely impacted an agricultural civilisation. I think this was around the same time the last of Doggerland in the North Sea finally submerged, around the time of the post Ice Age Climate Optimum (ie when it was warm & wet).
Quote from: JeremyR;1100516Wasn't this posted here originally? I've never heard of that blog.
Also there really weren't "domain" rules in 1e, just some vague guidelines. Not like the Companion set (which I remember buying just to use with AD&D). Nor like the Birthright rules in 2e.
But I think the idea of a golden age and then a cataclysm is pretty common in real world mythology/folklore. Mostly as a way of explaining why things suck so much. (And it's most definitely in Lord of the Rings, where each age is suckier)
I also bought the Companion set when it came out to use for mass combat (The War Machine) and domain management in my AD&D game.
Quote from: Chris24601;1100629To be pendantic, AD&D 1e is actually Post-post-apocalyptic. The actual destruction is far enough in the past that communities and individuals can just now start looking beyond day-to-day survival and towards the larger world and the opportunities it presents.
Our Migration Period. Entire "barbarian" peoples moving from northern and eastern Europe to as far away as North Africa, to become assimilated into a post-Roman culture.
Quote from: Conanist;1100728I agree with much that has been posted here, although I would attribute the Magic User thing more to the Dying Earth influence than a specific post apocalyptic intent. While a lot of the published settings that were in vogue in late 1e/2e had their own apocalypses, Dark Sun was really based on that premise. I'd be interested in what the genesis for that was.
I think another factor is that eventually the RPGs themselves become fuel for what comes later, rather than just the fantasy novels and medieval history. Longsword is the default 1 handed sword because it was that way in D&D. It is actually a hand and a half sword and something like an arming sword or viking sword would be more appropriate. The Ranger character always has at least the option of a pet now, because of Warcraft and Drizzt. I imagine many players don't know what the big deal is with a black runesword other than it was in some other game, etc.
If I were to run 1E AD&D again I would have the bastard sword be -the- default longsword, whether arming, hand-and-a-half, or viking sword (retain the bastard sword damage if two-handed; longsword damage if one-handed). I would discard the old broadsword as that was from faulty research books. I might consider using the higher-damage arrows from 2E (ie. war bows). I loved the 1E Rangers.
Quote from: S'mon;1101198'Kicked out of Eden' myths are more about loss of childhood innocence. Myths like 'The Flood', which we see in a bunch of different cultures - did the Roman version in school Latin class, part of Ovid's Metamorphoses AIR - definitely are Apocalypse myths.
I like the Greenland impact crater as a likely world ending thing for my Primeval Thule campaign, but I don't think the Younger Dryas was the source of the flood myths; they date at earliest from several thousand years later, when massive flooding in the fertile crescent region likely impacted an agricultural civilisation. I think this was around the same time the last of Doggerland in the North Sea finally submerged, around the time of the post Ice Age Climate Optimum (ie when it was warm & wet).
Myths can be interpreted in a variety of ways; I wouldn't want to reduce them to any singular interpretation. For instance, Eden/Golden Age could be interpreted as childhood, the womb (with the "flood" being birth), pre-agricultural society, antidiluvian civilization (e.g. Atlantis), pre-incarnational existence (spiritual realms), etc. Myths aren't allegories where the meaning is singular; they are more symbolic, and multi-faceted in meaning. IMO, of course.
Similarly with your second paragraph: there were likely numerous "floods" - local and larger scale. See, for instance, the work of Randall Carlson, as popularized by Graham Hancock. They've been interviewed by Joe Rogan several times. In their view, the Younger Dryas Event was a meteor that likely caused mass and cataclysmic flooding, perhaps due to rapid melting of glaciers. Interesting stuff.
Quote from: Mercurius;1101306Similarly with your second paragraph: there were likely numerous "floods" - local and larger scale. See, for instance, the work of Randall Carlson, as popularized by Graham Hancock. They've been interviewed by Joe Rogan several times. In their view, the Younger Dryas Event was a meteor that likely caused mass and cataclysmic flooding, perhaps due to rapid melting of glaciers. Interesting stuff.
What we know is that the Younger Dryas was a major cooling event, and it occurred when as far as we know there were only a few small
permanent settlements, and agriculture was perhaps in its infancy in Anatolia and unknown almost everywhere. So the cultures it impacted were almost all nomadic hunter-gatherer not settled farmers. Hunter-gatherers move away when sea levels rise and other disasters occur. So it doesn't look like a particularly good candidate as a myth source to me.
Quote from: Mercurius;1101306Similarly with your second paragraph: there were likely numerous "floods" - local and larger scale. See, for instance, the work of Randall Carlson, as popularized by Graham Hancock. They've been interviewed by Joe Rogan several times. In their view, the Younger Dryas Event was a meteor that likely caused mass and cataclysmic flooding, perhaps due to rapid melting of glaciers. Interesting stuff.
How does a meteor strike cause rapid melting of glaciers? I always thought that it would cause global cooling.
Quote from: S'mon;1101312What we know is that the Younger Dryas was a major cooling event, and it occurred when as far as we know there were only a few small
permanent settlements, and agriculture was perhaps in its infancy in Anatolia and unknown almost everywhere. So the cultures it impacted were almost all nomadic hunter-gatherer not settled farmers. Hunter-gatherers move away when sea levels rise and other disasters occur. So it doesn't look like a particularly good candidate as a myth source to me.
Yes, it was a cooling event but then ended with a rapid heating up. I think the key is "as far as we know." We don't know a lot about human habitation in the Neolithic and before. What is interesting is how much inhabitable land 20-40,000 years ago is now underwater. Or for me the holy grail of archeology: the Sahara desert, which was lush and green with lakes around or just before Dynastic Egypt. This is a potential goldmine of knowledge of our past waiting to be discovered.
Quote from: Shasarak;1101320How does a meteor strike cause rapid melting of glaciers? I always thought that it would cause global cooling.
Well, I'd refer you to Carlson/Hancock for a better answer than I can give. Any of the Joe Rogan podcasts are a lot of fun, if you're into this sort of thing.
If memory serves, I think Hancock's view is that the comet or meteor hit in North America (or possibly Greenland (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/massive-crater-under-greenland-s-ice-points-climate-altering-impact-time-humans)) around 12,800 BC, causing massive flooding and then a nuclear winter type effect that led to the Younger Dryas cooling and mass extinctions. 1,200 years later, Hancock speculates that more cometary fragments created a greenhouse effect that spiked temperatures, which led to massive flooding.
Here's a good short description (https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/abrupt-climate-change/The%20Younger%20Dryas) of the Younger Dryas. Or if you don't want to click on the link, the first paragraph:
The Younger Dryas is one of the most well known examples of abrupt change. About 14,500 years ago, Earth's climate began to shift from a cold glacial world to a warmer interglacial state. Partway through this transition, temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere suddenly returned to near-glacial conditions. This near-glacial period is called the Younger Dryas, named after a flower (Dryas octopetala) that grows in cold conditions and that became common in Europe during this time. The end of the Younger Dryas, about 11,500 years ago, was particularly abrupt. In Greenland, temperatures rose 10°C (18°F) in a decade (Alley 2000). Other proxy records, including varved lake sediments in Europe, also display these abrupt shifts (Brauer et al. 2008).There's also a good overview of the Younger Dryas impact theory here, (https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-important-events/younger-dryas-0012216) especially as it might pertain to the origins of civilization.
Quote from: Conanist;1100728I agree with much that has been posted here, although I would attribute the Magic User thing more to the Dying Earth influence than a specific post apocalyptic intent. While a lot of the published settings that were in vogue in late 1e/2e had their own apocalypses, Dark Sun was really based on that premise. I'd be interested in what the genesis for that was.
I think another factor is that eventually the RPGs themselves become fuel for what comes later, rather than just the fantasy novels and medieval history. Longsword is the default 1 handed sword because it was that way in D&D. It is actually a hand and a half sword and something like an arming sword or viking sword would be more appropriate. The Ranger character always has at least the option of a pet now, because of Warcraft and Drizzt. I imagine many players don't know what the big deal is with a black runesword other than it was in some other game, etc.
The lightest and shortest Longswords are possibly hand-and-a-half. The only time you use a normal longsword in one hand on foot is when grappling or fending someone off with your off arm. And using one on horseback is rare. I don't think I've ever seen a shield in a longsword manual. Gygax got "broadsword" from the Victorians. No one called it that in its day.
Quote from: Mercurius;1101333Well, I'd refer you to Carlson/Hancock for a better answer than I can give. Any of the Joe Rogan podcasts are a lot of fun, if you're into this sort of thing.
If memory serves, I think Hancock's view is that the comet or meteor hit in North America (or possibly Greenland (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/massive-crater-under-greenland-s-ice-points-climate-altering-impact-time-humans)) around 12,800 BC, causing massive flooding and then a nuclear winter type effect that led to the Younger Dryas cooling and mass extinctions. 1,200 years later, Hancock speculates that more cometary fragments created a greenhouse effect that spiked temperatures, which led to massive flooding.
Here's a good short description (https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/abrupt-climate-change/The%20Younger%20Dryas) of the Younger Dryas. Or if you don't want to click on the link, the first paragraph:
The Younger Dryas is one of the most well known examples of abrupt change. About 14,500 years ago, Earth's climate began to shift from a cold glacial world to a warmer interglacial state. Partway through this transition, temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere suddenly returned to near-glacial conditions. This near-glacial period is called the Younger Dryas, named after a flower (Dryas octopetala) that grows in cold conditions and that became common in Europe during this time. The end of the Younger Dryas, about 11,500 years ago, was particularly abrupt. In Greenland, temperatures rose 10°C (18°F) in a decade (Alley 2000). Other proxy records, including varved lake sediments in Europe, also display these abrupt shifts (Brauer et al. 2008).
There's also a good overview of the Younger Dryas impact theory here, (https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-important-events/younger-dryas-0012216) especially as it might pertain to the origins of civilization.
Thanks Mercurius. The good and bad thing about Joe Rogan podcasts is the length so this may take a little time. =;0)
Threads about swords and meteors!!! I love this place.
Quote from: Mercurius;1101333Well, I'd refer you to Carlson/Hancock for a better answer than I can give. Any of the Joe Rogan podcasts are a lot of fun, if you're into this sort of thing.
If memory serves, I think Hancock's view is that the comet or meteor hit in North America (or possibly Greenland (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/massive-crater-under-greenland-s-ice-points-climate-altering-impact-time-humans)) around 12,800 BC, causing massive flooding and then a nuclear winter type effect that led to the Younger Dryas cooling and mass extinctions. 1,200 years later, Hancock speculates that more cometary fragments created a greenhouse effect that spiked temperatures, which led to massive flooding.
So from what I hear on the podcast, the kinetic energy from the impact melted the glacial ice resulting in an unbelievably huge tsunami of water to flood through the top of the US.
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Quote from: Spinachcat;1101363Threads about swords and meteors!!! I love this place.
Well, yeah! That star metal for the magic swords has to come from somewhere. :)
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1101407Well, yeah! That star metal for the magic swords has to come from somewhere. :)
And now I'm envisioning a magic sword forged from a civilization ending meteor that tries to corrupt its wielder into a chaotic evil warlord whose only goal is to tear down civilizations.
Quote from: Chris24601;1101414And now I'm envisioning a magic sword forged from a civilization ending meteor that tries to corrupt its wielder into a chaotic evil warlord whose only goal is to tear down civilizations.
...or every magic sword forged from that meteor rises in intelligence, all trying to corrupt their wielders across the globe almost on cue with an ancient prophecy.
I'd play that campaign!
Slightly off-topic, but I've always liked the concept of meteoric iron being anathema to magic, fae, etc. as well as other mundane countermeasures to the supernatural such as salt circles, certain herbs being inherently pro- or anti-magic, charms and specific trinkets helping one resist glamours or enchantments, things like that. It feels "authentic" and I think it provides an interesting way for magic and muggles to interact and somewhat evens the playing field, without either side holding an ultimate trump card. It also makes superstitions more interesting/important to pay attention to IMO.
Plus, it makes it more fun for PCs playing a non-magic sage, woodsman or whatever when they start desperately raiding the pantry for ingredients to ward ghosts off from the tavern, or when they hurriedly scrounge through the underbrush looking for fresh mint to crush and mix with local river water to cleanse the cursed dungeon door before nightfall. Or the well-traveled armsman with the meteoric sword who can slice a path through the magical flames around the evil wizard's tower!
Quote from: Antiquation!;1101470Slightly off-topic, but I've always liked the concept of meteoric iron being anathema to magic, fae, etc. as well as other mundane countermeasures to the supernatural such as salt circles, certain herbs being inherently pro- or anti-magic, charms and specific trinkets helping one resist glamours or enchantments, things like that. It feels "authentic" and I think it provides an interesting way for magic and muggles to interact and somewhat evens the playing field, without either side holding an ultimate trump card. It also makes superstitions more interesting/important to pay attention to IMO.
Plus, it makes it more fun for PCs playing a non-magic sage, woodsman or whatever when they start desperately raiding the pantry for ingredients to ward ghosts off from the tavern, or when they hurriedly scrounge through the underbrush looking for fresh mint to crush and mix with local river water to cleanse the cursed dungeon door before nightfall. Or the well-traveled armsman with the meteoric sword who can slice a path through the magical flames around the evil wizard's tower!
Yeah, that all sounds great. :cool:
I really, really hated 3e D&D's presumption that 'Magic' always beats 'Mundane'.
Quote from: Shasarak;1100604What do they call apocalypses in the Forgotten Realms?
Tuesday.
more like 2:35 PM
Quote from: S'mon;1101542Yeah, that all sounds great. :cool:
I really, really hated 3e D&D's presumption that 'Magic' always beats 'Mundane'.
Hmmm, well the context does matter in this case I think. If something is better than mundane, then it was most likely considered magic by commoners. The meteoric iron would be considered magic in this case.
Quote from: jeff37923;1101684Hmmm, well the context does matter in this case I think. If something is better than mundane, then it was most likely considered magic by commoners. The meteoric iron would be considered magic in this case.
Sure, but 3e took a quasi-scientific approach and distinguished between 'mundane fire' and 'magical fire'. So forget about driving off the ringwraiths with your blazing torch!
Quote from: S'mon;1101695Sure, but 3e took a quasi-scientific approach and distinguished between 'mundane fire' and 'magical fire'. So forget about driving off the ringwraiths with your blazing torch!
That is also I believe in 2e D&D. Not positive as dont have the book on hand at the moment. But pretty sure they made a distinction there too between normal and magic fire.
Quote from: Omega;1101697That is also I believe in 2e D&D. Not positive as dont have the book on hand at the moment. But pretty sure they made a distinction there too between normal and magic fire.
It's also probably why 3e and later had "positive energy/radiant" damage as the primary means of damaging undead.
For my own system I went backwards and fire and radiant/positive energy are all Heat damage (which also allows it to cover lasers used in crashed alien spaceship ruins) while necrotic/negative energy is split between Cold (i.e. absorbs heat) or Toxic (cellular destruction) depending on the specifics I'm trying to produce (a wraith's touch is cold damage as it's sucking the life/heat out of you... a mummy's touch is toxic damage because trying to necrotize and rot away your flesh).