Quote from: beejazzYeah...
The omnipresence of opinion is one thing...
The accuracy or worth of these opinions?
Quite another.

Don't appreciate catering to the shrillest common denominator?

That said, I don't see a whole lot of evidence that D&D 3.5 was heavily based on feedback...

Quote from: Wandering MonsterI think the existence of D&D 3.5 is a direct result of the Internet.  That, and scads and scads of errata...

Yeah, but just because WotC owns up to the fact that their products need errata, doesn't mean the scads and scads of companies that never release errata release perfect products. Plus, a lot of that errata wasn't anything that was directly rules-related. A lot of it was just typos and the like.

I'm with the Slaad on the role of the internet regarding 3.5 D&D. It doesn't look like internet criticism had a lot to do with what got revised.

Quote from: Wandering MonsterNew revisions were released in "the old days," but those revisions didn't appear at quite the frenetic pace they do now (*cough* Mutants & Masterminds, I'm looking at you...).

M&M probably isn't the best example, since most of the reviews and internet buzz I've seen have asserted that the revision improved the game a lot. It also doesn't seem to have turned off the fan base.

I have gamed with Flyingmice over the Internet--and will do again. It's awesome. The most common format (IME) is IRC. I just got finished running a game with Skype for three people who are hundreds or thousands of miles from me.

The internet gives me ways to regularly interact with people in the hobby I would never otherwise have gotten to play with.

-Marco

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's slightly worrying when people in the games industry claim not to have ever heard of the Forge.

I'm willing to bet $10 to $1 that each of the following game authours have never heard of The Forge:

• Gary Gygax
• Dave Arneson
• Greg Stafford
• Marc Miller
• Sandy Petersen
• Peter Fenlonn

So the original authours of D&D, Glorantha, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Rolemaster... I'll give you ten dollars to one for each of these guys individually to never have heard of The Forge.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe fact that the Spycraft boys haven't heard of the Forge makes them seem a bit ivory towerish and out of touch with what's new in the hobby.

If you haven't heard of The Forge you're in an ivory tower? Wow, irony

The internet has made it easier for the stupid things we say to be revealed as stupid, and published to the world.

Quote from: JongWKI think the internet has made it easier for small-scale publishers to do business. This alone is a huge change.

That's very true. I think it's also made it easier for game groups to get together. Geeks are shy, and lazy, so if you put a notice up at a game store, you get no response. Email requires leaping a lower threshold of shyness than does ringing up some stranger. Plus it's easier to do fancy-looking webpages to advertise your game than it is to do posters, etc.

Quote from: MarcoI have gamed with Flyingmice over the Internet--and will do again. It's awesome. The most common format (IME) is IRC. I just got finished running a game with Skype for three people who are hundreds or thousands of miles from me.

The internet gives me ways to regularly interact with people in the hobby I would never otherwise have gotten to play with.

-Marco

Thanks Marco! We have to arrange a new day and time for our fourth season of the Beginner's Luck...

And I guess the non-skype game fell through?

-clash

Quote from: JimBobOzI'm willing to bet $10 to $1 that each of the following game authours have never heard of The Forge:

  None of which are all that active within the industry anymore.  I know Gygax had a small company pumping out D&D adventures and books full of lists of names and food stuffs but I don't know if that's still going post-Gygax's ill health.

   When I argue that it's dodgy that modern game designers haven't heard of the Forge, it's not much of a defence to wheel out people whose best work is frequently decades behind them and if they ARE still active in the industry are parodies of their former selves.

Good impacts of the net on the hobby: Instant error reporting, instant rules correction, instant downloadable eratta, wider communication, the ability of game clubs to form online, the ability to meet new gamers more easily, rapid sharing of ideas.

The bad side: Many gamers find that their adored and worshipped game designers can be the biggest assholes going, many game sites are ran with a "Don;t say anything negative or critical" policy (GW is the worst at this.) and after finding out about some of the people running the company that made your favorite game you may decide to quit it. Also, the rise of the gamers who have to bash on other gamers and get their rocks off attacking the so-called "catpiss men" and "fat beards" really killed a lot of the civility that used to be just standard in gaming.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalNone of which are all that active within the industry anymore.  

Bollocks.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhen I argue that it's dodgy that modern game designers haven't heard of the Forge, it's not much of a defence to wheel out people whose best work is frequently decades behind them and if they ARE still active in the industry are parodies of their former selves.

Better a parody of your former self than never having been a serious self in the first place. Anyway, "parody"? What the fuck? How have Gygax or Stafford satirised themselves?

If their "best work is decades behind them," maybe that's because they got it right. Their stuff's still selling these decades later, still being played. There are active D&D, AD&D, CoC, Rolemaster, Runequest groups, all within twenty minutes of my home. The same cannot be said of any Forge game. I suppose they could all be hiding, who knows? Maybe there are thousands of Dogs groups just next door? Maybe really no-one's playing AD&D, they're just making it up! Let's have some uniformed speculation about that! Uninformed speculation, after all, is the basis of most rpg theory.

Ignorance of The Forge indicates absofuckinglutely nothing bad about the person involved. It'd be like me saying that if you've never heard of d4-d4, that's "worrying." I save my masturbation for real pr0n, I don't fap off to my own delusions of importance.

I would be very surprised if Stafford hadn't heard of the Forge, I think he and Ron Edwards have discussed Heroquest together for example.

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't fap off to my own delusions of importance.

  Who is fapping?  I must have about 20 posts to my name at the Forge and I don't buy into any of their ideas.

  My point was simply that, like it or not, the Forge has made a name for itself both in terms of generating theory and in terms of generating interestingly designed independent games.  If you work in the RPG industry, I'd find it very strange indeed that you hadn't at least heard of the forge because the implication is that not only do you not take an interest in contemporary RPG design but you also clearly never monitor what goes on on RPG forums as it's difficult to read those without encountering a reference to the Forge sooner or later.

   As for the people you listed, I CAN see a lot of them not taking any interest in what's going on in contemporary RPG design but that's because those that are still actually active in the industry just do the same thing they ever did and have never evolved as designers.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf you work in the RPG industry, I'd find it very strange indeed that you hadn't at least heard of the forge

I've already clarified that they had, in fact, heard of the forge. Is there a reason to keep revisiting that particular point?

QuoteAs for the people you listed, I CAN see a lot of them not taking any interest in what's going on in contemporary RPG design but that's because those that are still actually active in the industry just do the same thing they ever did and have never evolved as designers.

The Forge is not the only possible or available venue for introspection and theorizing. I think anyone who posits that Spycraft has not evolved as a game has not seriously evaluated it against its prior edition. And again, it remains noteworthy to me that despite this supposed "need" to tap in the forge, I keep finding contrast points between elements of Spycraft 2.0 and up and coming "best practices" of games that emerge from regular Forge participants.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI've already clarified that they had, in fact, heard of the forge. Is there a reason to keep revisiting that particular point?

  So you did.  My apologies

Could we not maybe have a thread in which Caesar explains to us all why Spycraft 2 rocks?  I understand that it is a really groundbreaking design, at least as innovative as anything from the Forge but within a traditional framework.

Tell me about that, that's far more interesting than whether Stafford plays Gentle Knights in the Vineyard.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalNone of which are all that active within the industry anymore.  I know Gygax had a small company pumping out D&D adventures and books full of lists of names and food stuffs but I don't know if that's still going post-Gygax's ill health.

He wasn't pumping out D&D adventures, except for a couple with dual stats. He was, and is, working on his Lejendary Adventures RPG, which is quite different from D&D or any iteration. Currently, he's working on his Castle Zagyg for Troll Lord Games' Castles & Crusades RPG. Zagyg is, essentially, Castle Greyhawk with the numbers filed off.

The first release was Yggsburgh, which is a book detailing the surrounding area around Castle Zagyg. The notes for the megadungeon which was, esentially, the test-bed for D&D itself, apparently have been given over to the guys at Troll Lord to be worked on in case Gygax becomes ill again, but Gygax continues working on it also. Rob Kuntz was working on it, but apparently there was some kind of disagreement and Kuntz pulled out of the project (bear in mind that Gygax acknowledges Kuntz as the other main DM of Castle Greyhawk).

Gygax still hawks his Lejendary Adventures RPG, and says it's the main RPG he's playing these days.

Gygax also regularly posts to Q&A threads (as well as others) at Dragonsfoot and EN World, and seems to enjoy answering questions about the history of D&D & TSR. He also discusses just about anything put to him - for example, he now favors rules-light games.

Here's his current Q&A thread at EN World (past threads have been archived there):
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=171753&page=1&pp=40

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's slightly worrying when people in the games industry claim not to have ever heard of the Forge.

Simply put, it's impossible to post to a multi-system RPG forum without encountering some mention of them and it's definitely impossible to have any knowledge of RPG theory without at least hearing them.

The fact that the Spycraft boys haven't heard of the Forge makes them seem a bit ivory towerish and out of touch with what's new in the hobby.

Perhaps because The Forge isnt as important to the rest of the gaming community as they are to themselves.

Personally I think their theory is "crap".    My only goal when playing a game is having fun.  When I run a game I don't run it like: "I am going to run a game like X".    I run the game in a way that the players have fun.