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I adore the WFRP game. It has quickly earned a place in my heart, for having everything the old WFRP game had but actually being playable without all the wierd issues.  

But imagine if instead of the game we got, we'd gotten a game where the only thing you could play was a Ratcatcher.  And then, two years later, a totally different game where the only thing you could play was a merchant.  And finally, two years after that, a game where the only thing you could play was a soldier.

What would be the fucking point of doing that? WFRP would almost certainly have flopped, and for good reason.

So why the FUCK are they doing that with the new Warhammer 40000 RPG?

In case you haven't heard, the development plan, no doubt the brainchild of genius Chris Pramas, is to release not one but three WH40K games; but make each of them of very limited scope; so that in the first game you can only play an Inquistor's team hunting heretics, in the second you can only play a rogue trader, and in the third, you can only play a space marine.

Gone is the idea of having a plethora of careers, of having a rich and full experience.

This is the thing I fucking hate about Forge-style microgames. And clearly someone has been drinking the kool-aid.  They are somehow convinced that trying to sell me three incomplete games is doing me a bigger favour than selling me a single actually complete game.

They're trying to tell me that somehow selling me a game where THEY TELL ME what I HAVE TO PLAY is better for me than selling me a game where they give me all the possibilities and then leave it up to me to frame my campaign anyway I like.

Its utterly shitheaded. Fuck them, for trying to dictate to me how my game has to be, for trying to sell me the RPG equivalent of crippleware, and then having the boldfaced gall to tell me that they're really doing it as a favour to me.

And for all of you fuckers who kept asking "how is the Forge hurting you"? THIS is how.
When the fashionable "game theory" of the day leads to a gaming company ruining a game that could have been great.  Every time that happens, it makes gaming a little poorer.  

RPGPundit

The 40k setting is very socially stratified and xenophobic. It also has gross differences in power levels (and thus gameplay styles) in those social strata. The sort of missions you'd send Inquisitors on are very different from the hardscrabble life of a rogue trader, and Space Marines are living titans who even without power armor could crush a man's skull in one hand.

This is one of the problems Inquisitor ran into. Inquisitor is a WH40k quasi-RPG miniatures game using larger-scale minis. It lacks a central character creation mechanic pretty much because the standards by which different types of characters are created are so wildly disparate. It also has great difficulty modeling missions for space marines against anything less powerful than a brood of purestrain genestealers.

So I can't say as I blame Pramas. It's a pitfall of the setting.

I don't think that the Forge is here to blame. Releasing those kind of games doesn't look like any high-falutin' philosophy to me, that's good old-fashioned capitalism behind the wheel.

Well, maybe not that good. But I'll start blaming the Forge when each book has their own core rules that go hand-in-hand with the gaming style to be expected. Or other "narrativist" waste.

Still, three separate game books with the whole rules in them? That's kind of a waste of space. I could imagine some kind of core book with the rules and settings, plus one campaign type (probably Space Marine) and then supplements with additional backgrounds and careers for other stuff. Any links to press releases or forum discussions about that announcement?

QuoteSo I can't say as I blame Pramas. It's a pitfall of the setting.

???
Have you ever, well, done this reasoning for other settings?

Quote from: Sojourner JudasThe 40k setting is very socially stratified and xenophobic. It also has gross differences in power levels (and thus gameplay styles) in those social strata. The sort of missions you'd send Inquisitors on are very different from the hardscrabble life of a rogue trader, and Space Marines are living titans who even without power armor could crush a man's skull in one hand.

This is one of the problems Inquisitor ran into. Inquisitor is a WH40k quasi-RPG miniatures game using larger-scale minis. It lacks a central character creation mechanic pretty much because the standards by which different types of characters are created are so wildly disparate. It also has great difficulty modeling missions for space marines against anything less powerful than a brood of purestrain genestealers.

So I can't say as I blame Pramas. It's a pitfall of the setting.

Bullshit, you could argue the same about WFRP.  You could argue that it makes no sense for a Knight of the Realm to be put into the same game as a camp follower, and that there's no way that a Master Wizard will fit with a Witchhunter or a Ferryman.

The argument doesn't hold.  In the end, it is better to GIVE ME the options, instead of dictating to me how my game would have to be, which is what they're doing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SosthenesI don't think that the Forge is here to blame. Releasing those kind of games doesn't look like any high-falutin' philosophy to me, that's good old-fashioned capitalism behind the wheel.

No, stupid capitalism would have been one very slim core book with three different source books, instead of three marginally-compatible core books.
Smart capitalism would have been to follow the exact same model that WFPR 2e has succeeded with, rather than gambling on something that is bound to alienate many fans for purely ideological reasons.

QuoteWell, maybe not that good. But I'll start blaming the Forge when each book has their own core rules that go hand-in-hand with the gaming style to be expected. Or other "narrativist" waste.

That is, apparently, what they're doing. Each game will apparently have special rules, so that not only are they telling me which type of game I have to play, but also HOW I have to play it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIn case you haven't heard, the development plan, no doubt the brainchild of genius Chris Pramas, is to release not one but three WH40K games; but make each of them of very limited scope; so that in the first game you can only play an Inquistor's team hunting heretics, in the second you can only play a rogue trader, and in the third, you can only play a space marine.

Gone is the idea of having a plethora of careers, of having a rich and full experience.


RPGPundit

Although i'm not involved in 40k, i would presume that this will not be the case. I very much doubt that you will be limited to playing one kind of character with each game. I would think that as each one is released it will add a layer to the setting. Thus as Rogue Trader comes out, you will be able to play traders and inquisitors in the same game, as you will have the in-depth info at your disposal. I don't believe that they will be vastly different games, just have a different focus. The central mechanics will remain through the three lines i would think, with bits bolted on to take into account the vast difference in power levels between all the elements that make up the 40k universe.

That's what i expect. I may be wrong, however.

I also suspect that the plan came direct from Games Workshop, not from the developers. Developers do what they're told. ;)

Quote from: Settembrini???
Have you ever, well, done this reasoning for other settings?

Let me put a finer point on it.

Your average Imperial citizen is living a scavenger's life in the bowels of a great Hive. He knows very little outside of his native Hive, and barely knows the Empire exists beyond interactions with the Adeptus Arbites. His only likely contact with other races is if the Ordo Xenos slips up and a Genestealer cult gets started in his hive.

Imperial planets are patrolled ruthlessly by the Inquisition for signs of Chaos and Xenos incursion. The Imperial faith that everyone learns from birth states that humanity must keep itself pure, and that the fate of the Empire rests upon exterminating any divergence from humanity, including the mutation that runs rampant in the Hive cities.

Rogue Traders and Inquisitors are probably the characters most suited to what we would consider classic RPG-style gameplay. Both have, unlike the average Imperial citizen, freedom to travel from world to world, and contact with alien races and strange locations.

However the reasons for these two character types doing this are completely at odds. Rogue Traders operate outside the law and Inquisitors are the law.

And again, once you get to Space Marines you're running a completely different game. You don't call out the Space Marines unless you need something very, very, very dead. They just can't operate in polite society, being nine feet tall and capable of killing normal humans with very little effort.

So what?
Traveller has all these incorporated into a very thin book. Roleplaying in a fictional universe is all about chopice, option and presenting a believable wholesome experience. That involves having chargen rules for as much stuff as possible. by your reasoning, there should be different games for dwarfs and elves, as they obviously:

- have vastly different motivations
- eternal grudges
- vastly different areas of expertise
- totally different value systems
  - therfore totally different missions
- etc ad nauseam.

EDIT: Boy, be against Pundit for blaming Forge/Swine for every fault in gaming. Go ahead, you might be right.
But your fanboyish explanation is the most stupidest thing I've heard since Dominus Nox's political ramblings.

I can admit that perhaps I'm just approaching this from the perspective of someone who owned Inquisitor. Inquisitor is a game that in its initial corebook let you play... wait for it... an Inquisitor and his retinue. Which really is a broader spectrum than you might imagine, considering it encompasses three Orders of the Inquisition, the Adeptus Arbites, any number of Ecclesiarchy functionaries, Officio Assasinorum operatives, Arco-flaggelants and what have you. It was only in later supplements, often through magazine articles that later ended up collected into actual books, that you got your rules for Eldar, genestealers, alien bounty hunters, chaos magi, etc.

I will also readily admit that Inquisitor all but bombed, due in no small part that it was largely an excuse for Citadel to sell larger-scale minis. They didn't release character templates for certain character types until they had a mini to correspond with them.

Pundit's histrionics aside, I'm not happy with this plan.  I would prefer, as a GM, the chance to build up scenario of my own for play (even if it was just a bone-stock Rogue Trader fleet headed out past the Astronomicon.)

Rather than the Forge, I think this is a matter of GW's involvement.  Their business plan in the past has been to flood the market with product that you must own to play a certain type of game.

Want to play Imperial Guard?  Get the Codex.
Space Wolves?  Get the Marines Codex and the Space Wolves supplement.
New Edition?  Bend over and think of puppies; this'll just take a minute.

I tend to think the worst of GW's business plans.  This is no exception.  Something tells me each of the settings will be complementary; you'll have to own all three $40 hardbacks to play the "complete" game Pundit imagines.

Then the splats start rolling out.

EDIT: @SJ
Respect for sensibly backing down. My deepest respect. I can see what your point is.
By your very own reasoning, it could be the safest to assume, that GW has large say in how the line is to be published.

Quote from: SettembriniBy your very own reasoning, it could be the safest to assume, that GW has large say in how the line is to be published.

Certainly safe to assume. I'm going to withhold judgement though, because the Green Ronin involvement in WFRP is pretty much the only reason the game line managed to lurch back into anything resembling regular production and wide distribution. Pramas is likely working with what he's given, and I'll admit that I haven't followed Pundit's rants too directly so I might not understand some of the hostility towards the man.

I am definitely a fanboy of WH40k's fluff, and Inquisitor did have an impressive amount of fluff that could make an inquisitorial campaign playable if fleshed out into appropriate crunch in the first corebook. It's not quite the single-note campaign Pundit seems to think it'd be, given that the ideological factions within the three orders of the Inquisition give a very rich setting even if taken just as a subset of the greater world.

And, as I said above, hooking up with an Inquisitor or a Rogue Trader as part of their crew is pretty much any Imperial citizen's ticket to seeing the galaxy and not dying face down in some Hive alley. That's the important distinction. You're not just playing inquisitors, but their retinues as well.

So it could work. I'll be buying at least the first book to see how the implementation turned out.

to be fair we dont know how much variety there is going to be with each book. each may well have more careers than WHFRP.

Im going to be keeping an open mind on this, but I'd love to hear Chris's take on why he is choosing 3 books over 1

Yeah, you know...when I first read that bit about the game being split into 3 separate rule sets, my first thought was of army books and stuff.  

Seems to me like they coulda put all 3 choices into the same book.  But what do I know?  Look at my tie!

Quote from: One Horse TownAlthough i'm not involved in 40k, i would presume that this will not be the case. I very much doubt that you will be limited to playing one kind of character with each game. I would think that as each one is released it will add a layer to the setting. Thus as Rogue Trader comes out, you will be able to play traders and inquisitors in the same game, as you will have the in-depth info at your disposal. I don't believe that they will be vastly different games, just have a different focus. The central mechanics will remain through the three lines i would think, with bits bolted on to take into account the vast difference in power levels between all the elements that make up the 40k universe.

At the end of the game, if you're allowed to make a half-dozen or dozen- or thirty or two hundred Inquisitor-related careers in the "inquisitor game" you're still creating a game that is crippled by limiting it to one very specific experience within the setting, just because that's what the designers feel you ought to be doing.
Its like releasing a Star Wars game where the only thing you can play is gas miners and gas-mining-related characters on Bespin. Or you can ONLY play imperial soldiers/stormtroopers. Wanted to play the rebels? Sorry, bad luck.
Jedi? Nope, not allowed.
And trust me, this is for the best for you, because we the designers know that a game where you can only play Bespin gas miners is going to be superior because it will be more "focused", even if you never really gave a shit about Bespin Gas miners.

QuoteI also suspect that the plan came direct from Games Workshop, not from the developers. Developers do what they're told. ;)

I suspect, given GW's handling of the WFRP rpg thus far, that they don't give a sacred shit what BI does with the game. I find it almost impossible to believe that they're telling them how to make the game.
Shit, GW doesn't even SELL the game in their own stores. That's how much they give a fuck.

And it is only if that is not true with WH40KRPG, btw, that this crippled piece of shit stands a chance of being a successful experiment, and then only because selling it in GW stores would massively up the initial sales figures.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI suspect, given GW's handling of the WFRP rpg thus far, that they don't give a sacred shit what BI does with the game. I find it almost impossible to believe that they're telling them how to make the game.
Shit, GW doesn't even SELL the game in their own stores. That's how much they give a fuck.

RPGPundit

Believe me, everything goes through the GW IP department. As for strategy, i would be surprised if the publishing strategy isn't heavily affected by GW.

As for not selling WFRP in GW stores, i suspect that is simply not to take sales away from figures and army books, which is GW's main source of income after all.

Stop ranting and start thinking Pundit. You might surprise yourself.

QuoteBelieve me, everything goes through the GW IP department. As for strategy, i would be surprised if the publishing strategy isn't heavily affected by GW.

Good point.

QuoteAs for not selling WFRP in GW stores, i suspect that is simply not to take sales away from figures and army books, which is GW's main source of income after all.

Weak point.

Quote from: One Horse TownBelieve me, everything goes through the GW IP department. As for strategy, i would be surprised if the publishing strategy isn't heavily affected by GW.

That it "goes through" in the sense that GW assidiously checks everything BI writes to make sure that nothing in there challenges GW's vision of "canon" I find believable, given that GW makes a big deal about that sort of shit.
But I don't believe for a second that they TOLD BI or GR that they had to make WH40k in this particular format.

RPGPundit

It reminds me a bit of the strategy LUG used with their Star Trek RPG.

I dread to think about the levels of rule bloat that will be necessary to make it worthwhile to buy all three books.

On the plus side they might well be quite small books.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalOn the plus side they might well be quite small books.

Sure. Quite small $40 hardcover books.
That just makes it all the more appealing... :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

Sounds pretty stupid.

I guess you'll just have to... not buy it.

I mean, I've taken a look at Fate 3, and compared to the potential of Fate 2, it sucks. So hey, I stick with #2.

If I ever played D&D again, it'd be AD&D 2e, this 3.5 is just way too much fuckarsing about.

Why is anyone obliged to buy and play a new edition of a game? Does the old edition spontaneously combust when the new one comes out? Or are you a helpless drooling fanboy who has to buy EVERYTHING the company comes out with, just so you can whinge about it?

:enw:

Quote from: JimBobOzSounds pretty stupid.

I guess you'll just have to... not buy it.

I mean, I've taken a look at Fate 3, and compared to the potential of Fate 2, it sucks. So hey, I stick with #2.

If I ever played D&D again, it'd be AD&D 2e, this 3.5 is just way too much fuckarsing about.

Why is anyone obliged to buy and play a new edition of a game? Does the old edition spontaneously combust when the new one comes out? Or are you a helpless drooling fanboy who has to buy EVERYTHING the company comes out with, just so you can whinge about it?

:enw:

I wasn't aware that there was ever a first edition of a Warhammer 40,000 roleplaying game, unless you count Inquisitor.

Rogue Trader!

I actually kind of agree.  I've never seen the point in licensed products... why not just run a game with a system you own?

This one-in-three strategy is the single best argument I can make for spending the money to get an out-of-print copy of Rogue Trader.  Last I checked that went for less than $120 on eBay.

That's not even a roleplaying game though, is it?

It has rpging stats.

What about character creation?

Check, AFAIK.
We have a copy in the rpg-club library. Will check it out someday.

Quote from: JimBobOzSounds pretty stupid.

I guess you'll just have to... not buy it.

I mean, I've taken a look at Fate 3, and compared to the potential of Fate 2, it sucks. So hey, I stick with #2.

If I ever played D&D again, it'd be AD&D 2e, this 3.5 is just way too much fuckarsing about.

Why is anyone obliged to buy and play a new edition of a game? Does the old edition spontaneously combust when the new one comes out? Or are you a helpless drooling fanboy who has to buy EVERYTHING the company comes out with, just so you can whinge about it?

:enw:

This isn't a "new edition". There's never been a Warhammer 40K RPG. As I'm fairly confident this game will suck ass, I have now been cheated of the chance to play WH40k, or at least play it the way I wanted to play.

RPGPundit

...Oh, yes, it's all Forgey!  The first book will be Narrativist, you see, the second will be Simulationist, and the third will be Gamist.  Ron Edwards and Vicent Baker will be writing a special foreword entitled "Our nefarious plot to destroy gaming.", and it'll be adressed personally to you, Pundit, starting with the words 'Before we kill you, Mr.Pundit'.

All us hippie-story freaks are looking forward to the release of the first book.  With bated breath, we're preparing to cringe and sob about the heavy moral burdens that have been placed on our characters.

It'll be an angst-festival.  I can see that you're already getting into the spirit of it.

:rolleyes:

@Levi: With his own weapons, I salute you!

Quote from: RPGPunditAt the end of the game, if you're allowed to make a half-dozen or dozen- or thirty or two hundred Inquisitor-related careers in the "inquisitor game" you're still creating a game that is crippled by limiting it to one very specific experience within the setting, just because that's what the designers feel you ought to be doing.
Its like releasing a Star Wars game where the only thing you can play is gas miners and gas-mining-related characters on Bespin. Or you can ONLY play imperial soldiers/stormtroopers. Wanted to play the rebels? Sorry, bad luck.
Jedi? Nope, not allowed.

Dude, just out of curiosity, how much setting you want?
Would SW game need Bespin gas miners to be complete? Or any reason you would like to have Mr. Gasminer,  Jedi and a stormtrooper at the same group at the same time?

How about game of Jedi, with no other player characters? Would that be a game? How about if it is 300 pages stuffed with crunchy jedi rules?



..I was planning to write about the horrible limitation of not having starship captains on my d&d but then thought that it would be too obvious troll... And then realizing that yes, there are.

The other thing is, what kind of sicko would want to play an inquisitor looking for heretics?

"Kill them all and let God reclaim his own"

How the fuck does this have anything at all to do with the Forge?

Reminds me of the Fifties when Communism was to blame for all of America's problems.

Can't you rant about something you dislike without trying to idiotically tie it in with one of your irrational hate-centers?  "Teh Forge/Swine/Homosexuals are to blame for ALL of RPG woes!!"

-O

You're forgetting... Pundit thinks like my mother.

There's no sense or reason or analysis, there's just knee-jerk emotional outpouring that runs downhill (like all shit) until it sticks on something convenient... in this case the Forge.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe other thing is, what kind of sicko would want to play an inquisitor looking for heretics?

"Kill them all and let God reclaim his own"

Well, it's broader than that. Heretics, psychics, mutants, aliens and demons.

Hey, SJ:

Where can I pick up a copy of Inquisitor?  I might try to run it with regular-scale minis.

EDIT:  Or I could google it!  Not my finest hour...

Quote from: RPGPunditSo why the FUCK are they doing that with the new Warhammer 40000 RPG?

Because it will almost certainly sell, no matter what, merely because of the name.

Quote from: fonkaygarryHey, SJ:

Where can I pick up a copy of Inquisitor?  I might try to run it with regular-scale minis.

EDIT:  Or I could google it!  Not my finest hour...

Heh. I got it via mail-order, because even most GW shops don't carry it.

There's a free PDF up at the GW Specialist Games website (http://www.specialist-games.com/).

Quote from: DiscordianDude, just out of curiosity, how much setting you want?
Would SW game need Bespin gas miners to be complete? Or any reason you would like to have Mr. Gasminer,  Jedi and a stormtrooper at the same group at the same time?

How about game of Jedi, with no other player characters? Would that be a game? How about if it is 300 pages stuffed with crunchy jedi rules?

..I was planning to write about the horrible limitation of not having starship captains on my d&d but then thought that it would be too obvious troll... And then realizing that yes, there are.

Why not, when given the two choices, you present your customers with MORE choice and variety rather than less?

RPGPundit

Quote from: obrynHow the fuck does this have anything at all to do with the Forge?

Reminds me of the Fifties when Communism was to blame for all of America's problems.

Can't you rant about something you dislike without trying to idiotically tie it in with one of your irrational hate-centers?  "Teh Forge/Swine/Homosexuals are to blame for ALL of RPG woes!!"

When the forge argues that highly-limited microgames are the best possible design for RPGs, and a company decides to make a series of highly limited micro-games rather than a full-blown open-ended RPG with a variety of options, and claim that they're doing it for our benefit, it would stand to reason that somewhere along the line they've drunk the koolaid.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWhen the forge argues that highly-limited microgames are the best possible design for RPGs, and a company decides to make a series of highly limited micro-games rather than a full-blown open-ended RPG with a variety of options, and claim that they're doing it for our benefit, it would stand to reason that somewhere along the line they've drunk the koolaid.

When I buy a game book, I prefer that it contain mostly material that I will use when running it.  

I also prefer the lower prep time of a smaller game, the reduced concerns about whether I'm forgetting or contradicting some other part of the material that I do intend to use (and thus, some part I can't just change with a handwave).

Those preferences of mine have nothing to do with the Forge or any theory; I had them before there was a Forge.

These games sound, thus far, as if they will be built to serve those preferences.

That's a good thing.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhen the forge argues that highly-limited microgames are the best possible design for RPGs, and a company decides to make a series of highly limited micro-games rather than a full-blown open-ended RPG with a variety of options, and claim that they're doing it for our benefit, it would stand to reason that somewhere along the line they've drunk the koolaid.

RPGPundit

Erm...  No.

I don't think there's any necessary connection at all, and your 'logic' completely escapes me.

Group A does X
Group B does something kind of similar to X
Therefore Group B was obviously influenced by Group A

It doesn't work.  It doesn't "stand to reason" since there's no reason there.

-O

Quote from: RPGPunditWhy not, when given the two choices, you present your customers with MORE choice and variety rather than less?
RPGPundit

Are you really given two choices? Since 'choice and variety' is Content which you can have but a limited amount (*). Is it not better to try to focus on the beef of the game?

In SW game wouldn't you want more on the Jedi than on the gasminers?


(*) Limited by money, time, designers and customers capacity to digest bricks.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe other thing is, what kind of sicko would want to play an inquisitor looking for heretics?

"Kill them all and let God reclaim his own"

This kind of sicko

I think it sounds fucking fantastic and speaks to my inner fundamentalist

Quote from: obrynErm...  No.

I don't think there's any necessary connection at all, and your 'logic' completely escapes me.

Group A does X
Group B does something kind of similar to X
Therefore Group B was obviously influenced by Group A

It doesn't work.  It doesn't "stand to reason" since there's no reason there.

-O

Well, as contrary as it stands to what I'd expect, from time to time I hear proponents of the Forge talk about how its ideas have massive influence on mainstream game design.

Now, that strikes me as more than a little unlikely, but I suppose they would know better than I do.

If that claim is true, I don't see what's unreasonable at all about attributing a hallmark of Forge games showing up in a mainstream game to the Forge's influence.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen...Oh, yes, it's all Forgey!  The first book will be Narrativist, you see, the second will be Simulationist, and the third will be Gamist.  Ron Edwards and Vicent Baker will be writing a special foreword entitled "Our nefarious plot to destroy gaming.", and it'll be adressed personally to you, Pundit, starting with the words 'Before we kill you, Mr.Pundit'.

All us hippie-story freaks are looking forward to the release of the first book.  With bated breath, we're preparing to cringe and sob about the heavy moral burdens that have been placed on our characters.

It'll be an angst-festival.  I can see that you're already getting into the spirit of it.

:rolleyes:

I was going to answer a very similar thing, but you saved me the effort :D

Oh, and I agree wih kryyst just below me. ;)

For me I think the only way they could introduce 40k is one of two ways.  One tome of knowledge encompassing everything yet being generally to unwieldy to use.  Or Smaller volumes breaking the game apart into it's various concepts.  Core world gaming - Inquisitor, Fringe world Gaming - Rogue Trader, and all out war of the worlds style - Adeptus.

The first game is great for introducing people that have less familiarity to a huge  amount of game material in a manor that's more easy to digest.  Keeping it on one world and basing a game that will essentially be WFRP but in a 40k setting.  Inquisitor will have multiple careers and will not be as single minded as Pundit's insanity is creating.  It's just WFRP in 40k same style of games but in the 40k setting.  Seems like a very logical starting point to me and one that I and the rest of my group are extremely looking forward to.

Then a year later they unleash the fringes of the galaxy where you are pretty much now playing Firefly in a 40k setting - Fucking Brilliant.

To me the last game that brings in the heavy hitting is actually the least interesting setting.  It's all run and gun game play and unless they actually do  something a lot different with this you might as well just play the 'Inquisitor' or Necromunda style games.  It's going to be squad based tactical combat.....

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen...Oh, yes, it's all Forgey!  The first book will be Narrativist, you see, the second will be Simulationist, and the third will be Gamist.

On an unrelated side-note, has anything Gamist ever come out of the Forge?

Quote from: hgjsOn an unrelated side-note, has anything Gamist ever come out of the Forge?

Donjon.

In a half - related note, though is a Narrativist game, The Shadow of Yesterday is a homage full of OD&D love.

I'm truly amazed by the outstanding fear in which the Pundit lives regarding the Swine. This last post / blog entry is comedy gold. Now, Ron Edwards controls Black Industries! Vincent Baker is the secret GW CEO! They lead a double life, as indie hippie RPG designers by day, and corrupt capitalist GW merchandisers by night!



And together, they fight crime!

More than anything, to me, this rant illustrates RPGPundit's bias against Pramas and Nikchick since they don't believe him when he says that he convinced them to do a True20 book that is separate from Blue Rose.  It's a rant of a product that no one has even read yet.

Quote from: hgjsOn an unrelated side-note, has anything Gamist ever come out of the Forge?

Donjon, as stated.

My first ideas on 'what it meant' also inspired me to write this. (http://members.shaw.ca/LeviK/8bitDungeon.pdf)

Quote from: Levi KornelsenDonjon, as stated.

My first ideas on 'what it meant' also inspired me to write this. (http://members.shaw.ca/LeviK/8bitDungeon.pdf)

Interesting game (the link, I mean).  I can see myself playing that; I might give it a shot one evening.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThat's not even a roleplaying game though, is it?

Close enough.  It's a skirmish-based wargame with rules for advancement of individual figures.  Some days I don't need more than that out of a system.

But isn't it individual level as in, A spaceship?

The old WEG Star Wars game had a rather splendid supplement for it that appeared shortly before the company imploded that was all about running a traveller-style game.  I seem to remember is even had proper rules for upgrading your ship instead of the stupid XP-based improvement system.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalBut isn't it individual level as in, A spaceship?

Um... no.  I was referring to the old hardbound Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader, which featured very little trading (rogue or otherwise) and a whole lot of shooty, zappy action with 28mm figures.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalBut isn't it individual level as in, A spaceship?

The old WEG Star Wars game had a rather splendid supplement for it that appeared shortly before the company imploded that was all about running a traveller-style game.  I seem to remember is even had proper rules for upgrading your ship instead of the stupid XP-based improvement system.

If you want 40k spaceship combat, you really owe it to yourself to look into Battlefleet Gothic (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/bfg/default.htm). The boxed-set gives a lot of goodies for your dollar, and it's much more affordable to play miniatures-wise than 40k itself. Hell, there's only one supplement for it!

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonThis kind of sicko

You know, you were the first person I thought of after myself.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe other thing is, what kind of sicko would want to play an inquisitor looking for heretics?

"Kill them all and let God reclaim his own"

As a dedicated "we're just monkeys, we don't know shit"-style agnostic, I sure as hell would.

There's something fun about playing 180 degrees from type, and getting to shout hardline scripture-sounding warcries while doing so.

Yeah, it would be fun to play it once but a whole campaign?  I think it would start to feel wrong pretty quickly.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYeah, it would be fun to play it once but a whole campaign?  I think it would start to feel wrong pretty quickly.

Not especially. A fair amount of the things the Inquisition goes after deserve it. A smart GM will focus the campaign on those.

Hmmm... I'm sceptical.  One of the things about the Warhammer 40K universe is that there ARE no sympathetic characters in it.  Not only are there no heroes, there are no tragic or anti-heroes either.  In fact, you'd struggle to find a proper protagonist.

I'm willing to accept that I'm in the minority here but I have a real problem playing a fascist.  I can play a bit of a shit but I think I'd get bored of playing a fanatic week in and week out.

If you're playing Ordo Malleus, going after chaos cultists and daemons, you're about as straightforward "good guy" as you can manage within the confines of the setting.

Yeah but that's not saying much is it?  a witch-hunter for a fascistic theocratic government?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYeah but that's not saying much is it?  a witch-hunter for a fascistic theocratic government?

Fighting servants of powers who would devour the souls of the entire galaxy. Sure, you might have to declare Exterminatus upon a planet or two, but it's messy work.

I really wouldn't be interested in playing that kind of character.  It's a lose-lose situation... do your job and the fascists tighten their grip on the universe, don't do it and people die.  Lovely.

It's like that french fantasy RPG Prophecy.  Yet again, I'm seemingly the only person bothered by the idea of playing a tool of state oppression.

QuoteYet again, I'm seemingly the only person bothered by the idea of playing a tool of state oppression.

It's a game, spare us the moral histrionics.

Outside of the Inquisition (and the Imperial power structure, for the most part) you have the Rogue Traders. They cruise around the dark spots of the galaxy, charting places out and searching for gnarly shit and sexy ladies.  Kind of a Star Trek meets Heavy Metal sort of life.

If I remember my old copy of Rogue Trader correctly, the RTs are the only people in the Imperium from whom individual freedom is tolerated.

It's a way to play in the 40k universe without all the space facism, if that's what you're looking for.

Quote from: BagpussYou know, you were the first person I thought of after myself.

Why thank you.  Incidentally, "Inquisition" is my favourite oWoD sourcebook, even beating the original "Clanbook: Malkavian" into second place

(though I do have a soft spot for "And Now/As Promised in Werewolf the Apocalypse/PAGE XX!!!!")

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's like that french fantasy RPG Prophecy.  Yet again, I'm seemingly the only person bothered by the idea of playing a tool of state oppression.

Well, IMHO it's about on a level with playing a tomb-robbing, corpse-looting, temple-desecrating killer. ;)

-O

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYet again, I'm seemingly the only person bothered by the idea of playing a tool of state oppression.

Overblown reaction aside, when the alternative to oppression is a galaxy rife with madness, torture, and death, in which humanity is but the plaything of horrific alien gods, yes, I will stand up for the Imperium and for Humanity.

Be grateful of your master's punishment, for it is well-deserved and betters you.

I agree, that the universe, as presented, could not be balanced against Space Marines. They are not men! Every last one of them is a 9 foot tall genetic killing machines in nigh impenetrable armor that comes standard equiped with a machinegun that shoots exploding bullets the size of your head. It's easy to balance against this with the wargame because you get 2-3 Orks for every Spacemarine (8 Orks for a Terminator). You are Born a Space Marine and you will Die a Space Marine bringing glory to the Imperium.
 
Quit bitching because they're trying to make a good, fun game while still sticking close to the source material. The only thing I can see complaining about is that Rogue-Traders and Inquisitors aren't the same game.
 
WHFRP has seperated its playstyles too. How come I can't play a Skaven with the Main book? Because it doesn't work in the setting. An Orc? Doesn't work in the setting. Playing a Spacemarine is the equivalent to playing an Ogre, which you can't do that in the main rulebook either.
 
I'm sure that when you pick up WH40KRP: Inquisition (or whatever it'll be called) you'll be able to play a complete game with it with plenty of character options available (just like WHFRP). I'm sure there wll be expansions on it based on region (with more character options). Bitching that all you can play are Inquisition style characters is like bitching that all you can play in Shadowrun is a Shadowrunner.

Quote from: RPGPunditThis isn't a "new edition". There's never been a Warhammer 40K RPG. As I'm fairly confident this game will suck ass, I have now been cheated of the chance to play WH40k, or at least play it the way I wanted to play.
 
RPGPundit

If you know how you want to play WH40k as an RPG, why do you care what someone else puts out?
 
YOU already know what YOU want to play, so tell your friends how and go play it!

I have to wonder how they'll handle the Space Marine side of things.  KrakaJak's dead on about the power level of your average Marine; there's blessed little that can stand xeno-to-Marine and live to tell the tale (Genestealers, a few of the Tyranid variations, Striking Scorpion Aspect Warriors and Ork Nobz are all that come to mind.)

A Space Marine campaign would have to center around some of the more "interesting" (read: twinked the fuck out) chapters like the Dark Angels or the Space Wolves.  The Space Wolves, in particular, would be pretty damn sweet: Viking berserkers on a planet full of werewolves going on crusades against sanity-blasting demon armies.

Codex standard chapters give their brothers something like fifteen minutes of downtime daily, so roleplaying them would be difficult at best.

Quote from: fonkaygarryhe Space Wolves, in particular, would be pretty damn sweet: Viking berserkers on a planet full of werewolves going on crusades against sanity-blasting demon armies.

While drunk off their asses on monkish ale!

You know, that's a pretty nice life those Space Marines lead.  :)

EDIT: There's a microbrew in there somewhere: Leman Russ Ale, Fang Smoked Porter, Ulrich the Slayer's Special Pale...

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYet again, I'm seemingly the only person bothered by the idea of playing a tool of state oppression.

Well don't look at me on reading Mage:the Awakening, I was certain that the Technocracy were the good guys and the Traditions were dangerous ludites that wanted to return us to the dark ages, even with all the pro-traditions propoganda in that book.

Has it ever occured to you that occasionally the state might have your best interests at heart, and you might need oppressing, to avoid anarchy and demonic influence?

Quote from: obrynWell, IMHO it's about on a level with playing a tomb-robbing, corpse-looting, temple-desecrating killer. ;)

-O

When did this turn into a conversation about Archaeology?

Quote from: AosWhen did this turn into a conversation about Archaeology?

:)  D&D... archaeology...  Yeah, I see a strong connection.

-O

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI really wouldn't be interested in playing that kind of character.  It's a lose-lose situation... do your job and the fascists tighten their grip on the universe, don't do it and people die.  Lovely.

It's like that french fantasy RPG Prophecy.  Yet again, I'm seemingly the only person bothered by the idea of playing a tool of state oppression.

Actually that's the great thing about the 40k universe. I mean my 40K lore may be out of date -but aren't psychics fed to the emperor on a daily basis because he needs sustenance when stalking the chaos void or something? - I mean, that's the draw right ? That there are things out there in the dark worse that a fascist regime.

I remember reading about the Horus Heresy in WD and the emperor's battle with Horus, his most trusted of warriors.Loyalty, demonic possesion, epic space battles in gothic looking ships..... good stuff. I mean, there is evil out there but a different kind of evil is needed to fight it....wait a minute I'm losing the plot here :D

Regards,
David R

Warhammer 40k is the logical outcrop of two british fascinations for subjects:

Nazis & Empire

Quote from: David RActually that's the great thing about the 40k universe. I mean my 40K lore may be out of date -but aren't psychics fed to the emperor on a daily basis because he needs sustenance when stalking the chaos void or something? - I mean, that's the draw right ? That there are things out there in the dark worse that a fascist regime.

Actually, if I remember right they sacrifice the psychics to maintain the Astronomican, the psychic beacon that allows the Navigator's Guild to calculate safe Warp jumps in Imperial space.

Rather swiped from Dune in some ways on that one, but it's what makes all navigation possible for the Empire.

[fanboy]The descriptions used for that bit of fluff also imply that it's the psychic energy from these sacrifices that fuels the Golden Throne of Life.  It's just an implication, tho (like everything else in RT.)[/fanboy]

EDIT:  I think what I liked the most about 40K, what got its hooks into me, was that it was a pastiche of every good bit of scifi out there that I was just too lazy to read.  All those cool bits just got blended together and blew my fucking mind the way such things do when you're twelve.

I've kind of been out of the whole 40K scene since the mid 90's - maybe even earlier - are there any sites out there that could give me a rundown on the recent developments of the setting...maybe even a recap of what went on before ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: hgjsOn an unrelated side-note, has anything Gamist ever come out of the Forge?

Quote from: BalbinusDonjon.

Huh. I didn't see it when I read Donjon; is this the consensus/designer's statement?

Because if so, I clearly understand the concept of Gamism even less than I thought I did.

Quote from: Christmas ApeHuh. I didn't see it when I read Donjon; is this the consensus/designer's statement?

Because if so, I clearly understand the concept of Gamism even less than I thought I did.

I believe so, but out of all Clinton's work Donjon interests me least so whether it is a good gamist game or not (and I don't recognise gamism as a real thing to be blunt that actually exists in the world) I can't comment.

Quote from: David RActually that's the great thing about the 40k universe. I mean my 40K lore may be out of date -but aren't psychics fed to the emperor on a daily basis because he needs sustenance when stalking the chaos void or something? - I mean, that's the draw right ? That there are things out there in the dark worse that a fascist regime.

I remember reading about the Horus Heresy in WD and the emperor's battle with Horus, his most trusted of warriors.Loyalty, demonic possesion, epic space battles in gothic looking ships..... good stuff. I mean, there is evil out there but a different kind of evil is needed to fight it....wait a minute I'm losing the plot here :D

Regards,
David R

Ok, there are several ways that psykers get it up the ass in the 40k universe.


-Untrainable, weak or uncontrollable psykers  are fed to the emperor at the rate of like "1000 a day" to feed him and keep him in his deathless state. They are fed into the machinery at the base of the golden throne where their life forces is agonizingly leeched away to sustain the emperor.

-Many psykers are 'soul bonded' to the emperor if they are judged fit, and these become the chorus that broadcasts the astronavicom. The emperor doesn't create the warp beacon, he coordinates the psyker chorus that generates it and serves as a focus for their efforts.

-Better grade psykers are often trained to be inquisitors, inquisitor assistants, assassins, primarius military field psykers, etc. if they are adjucated to be worthy.

Quote from: Dominus NoxOk, there are several ways that psykers get it up the ass in the 40k universe.


-Untrainable, weak or uncontrollable psykers  are fed to the emperor at the rate of like "1000 a day" to feed him and keep him in his deathless state. They are fed into the machinery at the base of the golden throne where their life forces is agonizingly leeched away to sustain the emperor.

-Many psykers are 'soul bonded' to the emperor if they are judged fit, and these become the chorus that broadcasts the astronavicom. The emperor doesn't create the warp beacon, he coordinates the psyker chorus that generates it and serves as a focus for their efforts.

-Better grade psykers are often trained to be inquisitors, inquisitor assistants, assassins, primarius military field psykers, etc. if they are adjucated to be worthy.

Ok now my players will surely want to play psykers - because as pcs they assume they are going to get it up the ass :D  

Regards,
David R

Don't forget!  Psykers are also subject to demonic possession and other such funderful things.

Personally, the mosquito that lays its eggs in psykers' brains is my fave.

Quote from: fonkaygarryDon't forget!  Psykers are also subject to demonic possession and other such funderful things.

Personally, the mosquito that lays its eggs in psykers' brains is my fave.

Jeebus, this is one of the things that my players would find so cool...."think of the possibilities" they would say.

Regards,
David R

Do you own a copy of Rogue Trader, DR?

Quote from: fonkaygarryDo you own a copy of Rogue Trader, DR?

I think so, that's the original 40K wargame right? The big thick blue book, right? Most of the stuff I remember about 40K comes from White Dwarf which I subscibed to much longer than I should have, but I really dug the stuff about 40K -Space marine chapters, stories about Inquisitors etc...I've also read a couple of 40K novels.

Regards,
David R

The one actual GW product I would still lay down cash for is the collection of "Chapter Approved" fluff articles about the Adeptus Astartes chapters.

I feel good when I run into a GW fanboy, I don't feel so lonely.  :)

Quote from: fonkaygarryThe one actual GW product I would still lay down cash for is the collection of "Chapter Approved" fluff articles about the Adeptus Astartes chapters.

I've got all four of the collected volumes. Well worth it. The Horus Heresy artbooks are great inspiration for modeling, too.