I adore the WFRP game. It has quickly earned a place in my heart, for having everything the old WFRP game had but actually being playable without all the wierd issues.  

But imagine if instead of the game we got, we'd gotten a game where the only thing you could play was a Ratcatcher.  And then, two years later, a totally different game where the only thing you could play was a merchant.  And finally, two years after that, a game where the only thing you could play was a soldier.

What would be the fucking point of doing that? WFRP would almost certainly have flopped, and for good reason.

So why the FUCK are they doing that with the new Warhammer 40000 RPG?

In case you haven't heard, the development plan, no doubt the brainchild of genius Chris Pramas, is to release not one but three WH40K games; but make each of them of very limited scope; so that in the first game you can only play an Inquistor's team hunting heretics, in the second you can only play a rogue trader, and in the third, you can only play a space marine.

Gone is the idea of having a plethora of careers, of having a rich and full experience.

This is the thing I fucking hate about Forge-style microgames. And clearly someone has been drinking the kool-aid.  They are somehow convinced that trying to sell me three incomplete games is doing me a bigger favour than selling me a single actually complete game.

They're trying to tell me that somehow selling me a game where THEY TELL ME what I HAVE TO PLAY is better for me than selling me a game where they give me all the possibilities and then leave it up to me to frame my campaign anyway I like.

Its utterly shitheaded. Fuck them, for trying to dictate to me how my game has to be, for trying to sell me the RPG equivalent of crippleware, and then having the boldfaced gall to tell me that they're really doing it as a favour to me.

And for all of you fuckers who kept asking "how is the Forge hurting you"? THIS is how.
When the fashionable "game theory" of the day leads to a gaming company ruining a game that could have been great.  Every time that happens, it makes gaming a little poorer.  

RPGPundit

The 40k setting is very socially stratified and xenophobic. It also has gross differences in power levels (and thus gameplay styles) in those social strata. The sort of missions you'd send Inquisitors on are very different from the hardscrabble life of a rogue trader, and Space Marines are living titans who even without power armor could crush a man's skull in one hand.

This is one of the problems Inquisitor ran into. Inquisitor is a WH40k quasi-RPG miniatures game using larger-scale minis. It lacks a central character creation mechanic pretty much because the standards by which different types of characters are created are so wildly disparate. It also has great difficulty modeling missions for space marines against anything less powerful than a brood of purestrain genestealers.

So I can't say as I blame Pramas. It's a pitfall of the setting.

I don't think that the Forge is here to blame. Releasing those kind of games doesn't look like any high-falutin' philosophy to me, that's good old-fashioned capitalism behind the wheel.

Well, maybe not that good. But I'll start blaming the Forge when each book has their own core rules that go hand-in-hand with the gaming style to be expected. Or other "narrativist" waste.

Still, three separate game books with the whole rules in them? That's kind of a waste of space. I could imagine some kind of core book with the rules and settings, plus one campaign type (probably Space Marine) and then supplements with additional backgrounds and careers for other stuff. Any links to press releases or forum discussions about that announcement?

QuoteSo I can't say as I blame Pramas. It's a pitfall of the setting.

Have you ever, well, done this reasoning for other settings?

Quote from: Sojourner JudasThe 40k setting is very socially stratified and xenophobic. It also has gross differences in power levels (and thus gameplay styles) in those social strata. The sort of missions you'd send Inquisitors on are very different from the hardscrabble life of a rogue trader, and Space Marines are living titans who even without power armor could crush a man's skull in one hand.

This is one of the problems Inquisitor ran into. Inquisitor is a WH40k quasi-RPG miniatures game using larger-scale minis. It lacks a central character creation mechanic pretty much because the standards by which different types of characters are created are so wildly disparate. It also has great difficulty modeling missions for space marines against anything less powerful than a brood of purestrain genestealers.

So I can't say as I blame Pramas. It's a pitfall of the setting.

Bullshit, you could argue the same about WFRP.  You could argue that it makes no sense for a Knight of the Realm to be put into the same game as a camp follower, and that there's no way that a Master Wizard will fit with a Witchhunter or a Ferryman.

The argument doesn't hold.  In the end, it is better to GIVE ME the options, instead of dictating to me how my game would have to be, which is what they're doing.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SosthenesI don't think that the Forge is here to blame. Releasing those kind of games doesn't look like any high-falutin' philosophy to me, that's good old-fashioned capitalism behind the wheel.

No, stupid capitalism would have been one very slim core book with three different source books, instead of three marginally-compatible core books.
Smart capitalism would have been to follow the exact same model that WFPR 2e has succeeded with, rather than gambling on something that is bound to alienate many fans for purely ideological reasons.

QuoteWell, maybe not that good. But I'll start blaming the Forge when each book has their own core rules that go hand-in-hand with the gaming style to be expected. Or other "narrativist" waste.

That is, apparently, what they're doing. Each game will apparently have special rules, so that not only are they telling me which type of game I have to play, but also HOW I have to play it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIn case you haven't heard, the development plan, no doubt the brainchild of genius Chris Pramas, is to release not one but three WH40K games; but make each of them of very limited scope; so that in the first game you can only play an Inquistor's team hunting heretics, in the second you can only play a rogue trader, and in the third, you can only play a space marine.

Gone is the idea of having a plethora of careers, of having a rich and full experience.


RPGPundit

Although i'm not involved in 40k, i would presume that this will not be the case. I very much doubt that you will be limited to playing one kind of character with each game. I would think that as each one is released it will add a layer to the setting. Thus as Rogue Trader comes out, you will be able to play traders and inquisitors in the same game, as you will have the in-depth info at your disposal. I don't believe that they will be vastly different games, just have a different focus. The central mechanics will remain through the three lines i would think, with bits bolted on to take into account the vast difference in power levels between all the elements that make up the 40k universe.

That's what i expect. I may be wrong, however.

I also suspect that the plan came direct from Games Workshop, not from the developers. Developers do what they're told.

Quote from: Settembrini
Have you ever, well, done this reasoning for other settings?

Let me put a finer point on it.

Your average Imperial citizen is living a scavenger's life in the bowels of a great Hive. He knows very little outside of his native Hive, and barely knows the Empire exists beyond interactions with the Adeptus Arbites. His only likely contact with other races is if the Ordo Xenos slips up and a Genestealer cult gets started in his hive.

Imperial planets are patrolled ruthlessly by the Inquisition for signs of Chaos and Xenos incursion. The Imperial faith that everyone learns from birth states that humanity must keep itself pure, and that the fate of the Empire rests upon exterminating any divergence from humanity, including the mutation that runs rampant in the Hive cities.

Rogue Traders and Inquisitors are probably the characters most suited to what we would consider classic RPG-style gameplay. Both have, unlike the average Imperial citizen, freedom to travel from world to world, and contact with alien races and strange locations.

However the reasons for these two character types doing this are completely at odds. Rogue Traders operate outside the law and Inquisitors are the law.

And again, once you get to Space Marines you're running a completely different game. You don't call out the Space Marines unless you need something very, very, very dead. They just can't operate in polite society, being nine feet tall and capable of killing normal humans with very little effort.

So what?
Traveller has all these incorporated into a very thin book. Roleplaying in a fictional universe is all about chopice, option and presenting a believable wholesome experience. That involves having chargen rules for as much stuff as possible. by your reasoning, there should be different games for dwarfs and elves, as they obviously:

- have vastly different motivations
- eternal grudges
- vastly different areas of expertise
- totally different value systems
  - therfore totally different missions
- etc ad nauseam.

EDIT: Boy, be against Pundit for blaming Forge/Swine for every fault in gaming. Go ahead, you might be right.
But your fanboyish explanation is the most stupidest thing I've heard since Dominus Nox's political ramblings.

I can admit that perhaps I'm just approaching this from the perspective of someone who owned Inquisitor. Inquisitor is a game that in its initial corebook let you play... wait for it... an Inquisitor and his retinue. Which really is a broader spectrum than you might imagine, considering it encompasses three Orders of the Inquisition, the Adeptus Arbites, any number of Ecclesiarchy functionaries, Officio Assasinorum operatives, Arco-flaggelants and what have you. It was only in later supplements, often through magazine articles that later ended up collected into actual books, that you got your rules for Eldar, genestealers, alien bounty hunters, chaos magi, etc.

I will also readily admit that Inquisitor all but bombed, due in no small part that it was largely an excuse for Citadel to sell larger-scale minis. They didn't release character templates for certain character types until they had a mini to correspond with them.

Pundit's histrionics aside, I'm not happy with this plan.  I would prefer, as a GM, the chance to build up scenario of my own for play (even if it was just a bone-stock Rogue Trader fleet headed out past the Astronomicon.)

Rather than the Forge, I think this is a matter of GW's involvement.  Their business plan in the past has been to flood the market with product that you must own to play a certain type of game.

Want to play Imperial Guard?  Get the Codex.
Space Wolves?  Get the Marines Codex and the Space Wolves supplement.
New Edition?  Bend over and think of puppies; this'll just take a minute.

I tend to think the worst of GW's business plans.  This is no exception.  Something tells me each of the settings will be complementary; you'll have to own all three $40 hardbacks to play the "complete" game Pundit imagines.

Then the splats start rolling out.

EDIT: @SJ
Respect for sensibly backing down. My deepest respect. I can see what your point is.
By your very own reasoning, it could be the safest to assume, that GW has large say in how the line is to be published.

Quote from: SettembriniBy your very own reasoning, it could be the safest to assume, that GW has large say in how the line is to be published.

Certainly safe to assume. I'm going to withhold judgement though, because the Green Ronin involvement in WFRP is pretty much the only reason the game line managed to lurch back into anything resembling regular production and wide distribution. Pramas is likely working with what he's given, and I'll admit that I haven't followed Pundit's rants too directly so I might not understand some of the hostility towards the man.

I am definitely a fanboy of WH40k's fluff, and Inquisitor did have an impressive amount of fluff that could make an inquisitorial campaign playable if fleshed out into appropriate crunch in the first corebook. It's not quite the single-note campaign Pundit seems to think it'd be, given that the ideological factions within the three orders of the Inquisition give a very rich setting even if taken just as a subset of the greater world.

And, as I said above, hooking up with an Inquisitor or a Rogue Trader as part of their crew is pretty much any Imperial citizen's ticket to seeing the galaxy and not dying face down in some Hive alley. That's the important distinction. You're not just playing inquisitors, but their retinues as well.

So it could work. I'll be buying at least the first book to see how the implementation turned out.

to be fair we dont know how much variety there is going to be with each book. each may well have more careers than WHFRP.

Im going to be keeping an open mind on this, but I'd love to hear Chris's take on why he is choosing 3 books over 1

Yeah, you know...when I first read that bit about the game being split into 3 separate rule sets, my first thought was of army books and stuff.  

Seems to me like they coulda put all 3 choices into the same book.  But what do I know?  Look at my tie!