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Greetings.

In another thread on D&D 4the Edition, there was a question about Hit Points. I figured I'd provide what little research I could (given the demands of daily life) without cluttering up that thread. So, without further ado...The Hit Point Parade.

QuoteDungeons & Dragons (c. 1978 - the Blue Box with the Dragon atop a pile of gold), Page 7:
There are two more important die roles to be made for each character.

First generate a random number for "hit points." To generate the numbers roll the special dice in this game – 8-sided, 6-sided, 4-sided. This represents the amount of damage the character can take.

[snip specifics about which classes get which hit dice types]

In combat, if a character receives a blow, a dice roll will be made to determine the number of damage points inflicted. These are subtracted from the character's "hit points." If his hit score falls to zero he is dead. Hit points can be restored, if the character is alive, by a clerical healing spell, a healing potion or some other magical item. Otherwise he must continue on in his wounded state until the game is over and he returns to the surface. Each day of rest and recuperation back "home" will regenerate 1 to 3 hit points for the next adventure.

QuoteAdvanced Dungeons & Dragons, Players Handbook; Page 34:
CHARACTER HIT POINTS

Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit point represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to fill four large warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of it points are a symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.

[snip specifics implementation rules]

Rest also restores hit points, for it gives the body the chance to heal itself and regain the stamina or force which adds the skill, luck, and magical hit points.

Your character's class will determine which sort of die youo will roll to determine hit points. In some campaigns the referee will keep this total secret, informing the players only that they feel "strong", "fatigued" or "very weak", thus indicating waning hit points.

QuoteAdvanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, Players Handbook; Page 103
To allow characters to be heroic (and for ease of play), damage is handled abstractly in the AD&D game. All characters and monsters have a number of hit points. The more hit points a creature has, the harder it is to defeat.

Damage is subtracted from a character's (or creature's) hit points. Should one of the player characters hit an ogre in the side of the head for 8 points of damage, those 8 points are subtracted from the ogre's total hit points. The damage isn't applied to the head, or divided among different areas of the body.

Hit point loss is cumulative until a character dies or has a chance to heal his wounds.

QuoteDungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, Core Rulebook I v.3.5; page 145:
What hit points Represent: hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. For some characters, hit points may represent divine favor or inner power. When a paladin survives a fireball, you will be hard pressed to convince bystanders that she doesn't have the favor of some higher power.

[snip Damaging helpless defenders]

Effects of hit Point Damage: Damage gives you scars, bangs up your armor, and gets blood on your tunic, but it doesn't slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower.
   At 0 hit points, your disabled.
At from -1 to -9 hit points, you're dying.
At -10 hit points, you're dead.

Well... maybe it isn't so debatable at all.  Nice work.

Things are looking better by the minute for the justification of self-recovery methods for PCs (i.e. "second wind").  I do hope that makes it into the game.

For a bit of information on what this might look like in 4e, here's a decent article about it in context of Star Wars: Saga Edition (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview4).

Thanks for the research.

Seanchai

For reference in other games...

QuoteGURPS Fourth Edition, Characters; Page 16:
Hit points represent your body's ability to sustain injury. By default, you have HP equal to your ST [strength]. For instance, ST 10 gives you 10HP.

[snip mechanics]

You can temporarily lose HP to physical attacks (such as swords), energy attacks, disease, poison, hazards, and anything else that can injure or kill. You can also "burn" HP to power certain supernatural abilities. If you lose enough HP, you will eventually fall unconscious; if you lose too many HP, you will die.

Also note for reference in GURPS you do not get more Hit Points as you level. So there's no discussion of the abstract nature of HP.

Huh.  That's got me thinking, what games, other than D&D and its direct derivatives/descendants use the exact term "Hit Points"?  Which of those games explicitly define "Hit Points" in GURPS's terms and which in D&D's?

Scanning my collection, not one single game outside of the D&D family (in which I include d20-based games) and my (limited) GURPS stuff uses the term.  My collection is full of games mentioning "Life Points" or "Damage Capacity" or "Wounds", etc... Every single one, outside of the D&D family, uses a replacement for Hit Points that clearly correlates the value to actual, physical damage.

Who out there has shelves filled to overflowing with Fantasy Heartbreakers?  There must be something out there that uses the D&D definition...

edit: [I love the edit feature]

Thinking about it even more, I have shelves full of CRPGs that do use D&D style Hit Points, especially console games.  Weird.  In the computationally slow realm of pen and paper, we can't get far enough away from abstract Hit Points.  In the realm of lighting fast math, we reject just about anything else.  Bizarre...

Quote from: architect.zeroWell... maybe it isn't so debatable at all.  Nice work.

Things are looking better by the minute for the justification of self-recovery methods for PCs (i.e. "second wind").  I do hope that makes it into the game.

Indeed. The refreshment of an abstract quantity that is at least partially composed of grit and resolve is completely justified in this case.

I also like that the design team are decoupling swift hit point recovery from healing magic. It lends more credibility to the archetypal lone-fighter-on-a-quest story.

This got me thinking about RuneQuest, wherein Hit Points were determined based on the Constitution score and modified by a character's Size and Power scores.  Of particular note, they were a direct function of CON, SIZ, and POW, and never changed with experience -- they were mechanistically the amount of damage your total body could take.  Here's how my two copies describe HPs:

Quote from: RuneQuest 2nd EditionThis is not so much an ability as an attribute. Hit Points are the measure of how much damage one can take before dying.

That's about it, other than explaining the rationale for Power and Size affecting the base stat of Constitution.

Quote from: RuneQuest 3rd EditionHit points measure how much damage your adventurer can take before unconsciousness or death. 'Hit points' can refer either to the total hit points of the adventurer or the hit points per body location.

Again, keeping it quite simple -- the loss of hit points is, literally, a direct measure of the loss of life, a direct assault on the physical being.  In RQ, the more subtle qualities of luck, skill, and even divine favor are all covered under specific skills and abilities that are built into the game.  Frankly, it was less abstract than in D&D.

By the way, in all the years that I played 1st ed. AD&D, my mates and I never once read that passage from p.34 of the Player's Handbook.  How embarrassing.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaBy the way, in all the years that I played 1st ed. AD&D, my mates and I never once read that passage from p.34 of the Player's Handbook.  How embarrassing.

It's the conceptual Bermuda Triangle of gaming. Either people read it then instantly forget, or they never find it at all.

Cue thirty+ years of needless debate...;)

Quote from: architect.zeroHuh.  That's got me thinking, what games, other than D&D and its direct derivatives/descendants use the exact term "Hit Points"?  Which of those games explicitly define "Hit Points" in GURPS's terms and which in D&D's?

Pendragon (4th ed.):

QuoteHealth in Pendragon is measured primarily through the Total Hit Points statistic (SIZ+CON). This number represents the character's ability to absorb injury. Death is imminent if a character has zero or negative hit points. A character with only half his hit points left is half dead.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaBy the way, in all the years that I played 1st ed. AD&D, my mates and I never once read that passage from p.34 of the Player's Handbook.  How embarrassing.

Looks like you and I are more alike than probably either of us will ever care to admit ;)

I can't say we never read it.  I can say, as one can see from my comment that prompted this thread in the "place your bets" thread, I completely forgot it ever existed.

I'm taking this as an opportunity - I started re-reading the Players Handbook last night - every fucking word of it.

I wonder if part of this comes from using the books as reference manuals. Instead of reading every word, you skim and take what you need. I know some books lend themselves to being read differently - as books (people, including me, often think of the 1st edition DMG this way). Hmmm....maybe another thread...

I think a big part of the problem is that they're called HIT points... but they make the most sense when thought of as NOT BEING HIT points. :)

Of course all the term contribute to players thinking their characters are battleships sustaining hits from canon fire:  hit points, damage, armour class, etc

That's where 'hit points' came from... but I don't think that's what they model in the game.

If someone fires a heavy crossbow at you from 15 feet away, what does losing even up to half your hit points represent?  You've got a bolt through your leg, or sticking out of your shoulder?  Not really, because you're running around just as fine as you were before being "hit".  It makes more sense to think of it as your loss of stamina as you throw yourself out of the way, and pressing your luck (which sooner or later will run out).  You're not actually hit.

I don't think the concept of "hit points" when applied to a single character works all that well with things like touch attacks, dodging and armour class either.

I tend to think of them in Hong terms.

QuoteYou will note that a dagger has only an eentsy little blade. The thing is that as characters advance in levels (sometimes termed "developing", or "maturing"; this is a process a bit like fruit ripening) they develop a protective force field around them. This force field is sometimes called the "dude factor". The dude factor is very thin for 1st level characters, in particular 1st level commoners, who are not dudes at all. 1st level PCs are by definition dudes, so they have more of a dude factor. As your level increases, so does your dudeness, and hence the thickness and strength of your protective dude field. A dagger, having only an eentsy blade, can only penetrate a certain thickness of dude field. A longsword has a bigger blade, and so can penetrate many more inches of dudeness (only dudes can wield a longsword, which is why it's a martial weapon, whereas any schmuck can wield a dagger, which is a simple weapon). Finally, a greatsword is the ultimate dude weapon, and has unsurpassed ability to penetrate dude fields. Even the most mojo dudes find it hard to control a greatsword, which is why it needs two hands to use.

Quote from: James McMurrayI tend to think of them in Hong terms.

Hillarious and appropriate.  As a friend of mine observed while watching Attack of the Clones, "Y'see Jango Fett just ran out of Cool Points.  He was like, Oh gonna dodge that lightsabre and shoot that jedi!  Awacha, not gonna get hurt getting run over by that giant Lucas-cow!  Howa, I'm out of the way of that gunshot!  Oh come on Mace, I can take you!  Wait, no, out of cool points."

Quote from: James J SkachI wonder if part of this comes from using the books as reference manuals. Instead of reading every word, you skim and take what you need.

You mean how we used to take weapons like glaive-guisarmes and pikes into dungeons because they ranked in with really boss to-hit mods?  That went along sweetly until someone finally read the details of the weapon charts and pointed out that they were something like 10 to 18 feet long. :rolleyes:

!i!

Quote from: StuartI don't think the concept of "hit points" when applied to a single character works all that well with things like touch attacks, dodging and armour class either.

Or the great debate we had as teens: How many Hit Points do you have when you sleep?

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou mean how we used to take weapons like glaive-guisarmes and pikes into dungeons because they ranked in with really boss to-hit mods?  That went along sweetly until someone finally read the details of the weapon charts and pointed out that they were something like 10 to 18 feet long. :rolleyes:

!i!

Phew...

We only went with the Halberd....always the fucking Halberd....

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOr the great debate we had as teens: How many Hit Points do you have when you sleep?

!i!

If you look at the 3.5 entry, you'll notice I snipped something on "Damaging Helpless Defenders.  That section (I'll quote it tonight when I have the book) says someone like "A dagger in the eye is a dagger in the eye."  The point (no pun intended) being that hit points are kind of meaningless if someone is out cold - you just put a dagger through their eye and presto!

So the answer to your debate?  None, apparently :)

Hit points and AC make absolute sense if you assume that PCs are like ironclad battleships (possibly because the terms, and some of the mechanics, were originally invented by Dave Arneson for a wargame about ironclad battleships IIRC). If you don't hit someone hard enough to really affect them at all - if your shot simply bounces off their armour - then no HP is lost. If at least some of the force of your hit penetrates the armour, then your hull is going to be weakened - HP lost. Eventually, if your hull is weakened enough you'll get a big hole in it and sink (HP go down to 0).

Quote from: WarthurHit points and AC make absolute sense if you assume that PCs are like ironclad battleships...

They also make absolute sense, in my opinion, if you assume they work as they're described in the books. They're not a mechanic meant to model physics, biology, etc. nor do they function "in-game." They describe meta-game penalties assessed against the character for his or her actions and provide a measure of the degree of penalties the character can withstand.

Most of the dissonance surrounding Hit Points comes from people simply not reading their description and other games taking less abstract or 'in-game" approaches.

Seanchai

Quote from: WarthurHit points and AC make absolute sense if you assume that PCs are like ironclad battleships (possibly because the terms, and some of the mechanics, were originally invented by Dave Arneson for a wargame about ironclad battleships IIRC). If you don't hit someone hard enough to really affect them at all - if your shot simply bounces off their armour - then no HP is lost. If at least some of the force of your hit penetrates the armour, then your hull is going to be weakened - HP lost. Eventually, if your hull is weakened enough you'll get a big hole in it and sink (HP go down to 0).

It's very similar to how I always viewed it.  However, I was hoist by my own petard by doing the research and that quote form the 1st edition PHB. It's pretty clear that hit points seem to occupy this weird never-never land.

It's interesting that the Gygax writes that a certain portion of hit points for a high level character are still representative of physical damage - it's the remainder, the over and above, that represent the other things.

Side Note: Taken all together, this makes me think the way Hinter does it in Iridium is spot-on - armor takes damage first, then when destroyed it gets to the character. Then Magic Armor could use the bonus not only as a defense number, but as a number of hit points :D

Quote from: SeanchaiThey also make absolute sense, in my opinion, if you assume they work as they're described in the books. They're not a mechanic meant to model physics, biology, etc. nor do they function "in-game." They describe meta-game penalties assessed against the character for his or her actions and provide a measure of the degree of penalties the character can withstand.

Most of the dissonance surrounding Hit Points comes from people simply not reading their description and other games taking less abstract or 'in-game" approaches.

Yeah; I think the split comes at least partially because the terminology wasn't changed from the battleships game.

Quote from: Stuart...

I don't think the concept of "hit points" when applied to a single character works all that well with things like touch attacks, dodging and armour class either.

I think HP are a great abstraction but can be too much of one that tends to break down (like AC) when the assumptions built into it no longer apply.  For straight melee combat ala Chainmail they are superb.  

Yet add in attacks that can kill by simple touch and shouldn 't the part of your HP that represent twisting, dodging, loss of stamina, etc. need to be lost before you are touched?  On touch attacks even AC in AD&D breaks down (or more precisely is now broken apart into Touch AC).

One of the things with HP was (like mentioned above) was the number of HP while asleep.  But I think that was addressed by coup de grace rules in AD&D.

Another was at high level it seemed impossible to stab someone in the back to kill them.  Classical betrayal scenes, et tu Brute, not possible if you are high enough level.  Of cousre everyone in the Senate may have been a high level thief with back-stabbing.  Now that I think about it I'm sure back-stabbing has to be an inherent politician class ability.

Another was jumping off a cliff, my favorite, at 1D6 per 10' a high level fighter could theoretically jump off a 100' cliff with no fear.  But that may have been addressed by System Shock rolls in AD&D, still not a big deal for a high CON fighter.

Lastly with HP, if only a base portion represents actually taking damage, e.g., bleeding, why do you need to make poison saves even for those hits that never connected?

Yet at the end of the day, if the game is fun and not too WTF, go with it.

P.S. for the record I read the PHB cover to cover a couple of time back in the AD&D day, the one "rule" we never ruled was the parry rule.  Probably because it never showed up in the DMG to my knowledge.

Quote from: XantherYet at the end of the day, if the game is fun and not too WTF, go with it.

But in order to deal appropriate with the WTF factor, you have to understand that D&D is a game and that it deals with certain genres (or, in my estimation, its own genre).

You mentioned, for example, Hit Points not allowing high level characters to be quickly assassinated via backstab. They don't, and in my opinion, that's a good thing. D&D is a game, and a game in which you can overcome challenges that quickly or lose what you've spent time building under those circumstances doesn't sound too fun to me. Also, genre-wise, that's not how D&D-esque stories end. The hero or villain don't get quickly taken out from behind.

So, to my mind, the WTF factor has to first take into account the paradigm being utilized. If a gritty, modern day game about quick, brutal assassinations doesn't allow for the types of backstabs we're talking about, I'd say something was wrong. That D&D doesn't is not, for me, a flaw.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiBut in order to deal appropriate with the WTF factor, you have to understand that D&D is a game and that it deals with certain genres (or, in my estimation, its own genre).

You mentioned, for example, Hit Points not allowing high level characters to be quickly assassinated via backstab. They don't, and in my opinion, that's a good thing. D&D is a game, and a game in which you can overcome challenges that quickly or lose what you've spent time building under those circumstances doesn't sound too fun to me. Also, genre-wise, that's not how D&D-esque stories end. The hero or villain don't get quickly taken out from behind.

So, to my mind, the WTF factor has to first take into account the paradigm being utilized. If a gritty, modern day game about quick, brutal assassinations doesn't allow for the types of backstabs we're talking about, I'd say something was wrong. That D&D doesn't is not, for me, a flaw.

Seanchai

Exactly.  It's just the various unpackings of the HP abstraction is fun.  In some cases you get more protection than you might think, in others less.  

I'd have to say that D&D does allow for brutal assassination, or at least in AD&D, you just need an assassin to do it.  Or a bunch of thieves.   Or a nicely poisoned blade.  :D

3.x's "Massive Damage" rules do go a long way towards, conceptually, separating actual damage from ephemeral advantage/disadvantage stuff.  However the threshold in D&D is extremely high (around 50, iirc), so it's still not possible to assassinate someone without super special assassin-y feats and/or class abilities.

In d20 CoC that threshold is set to 10, and it actually works pretty well to allow for instant death without bogging down with VP/WP ala d20 Star Wars (pre Saga Edition).

D&Disms like hit points and armor class are designed to be played with, not hyper-scrutinized. They fall apart pretty quickly when they're taken out of their element.

As promised upthread:

QuoteDungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, Core Rulebook I v.3.5; page 145:
Damaging Helpless Defenders:Even if you have lots of hit points, a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye. When a character is helpless, meaning that he can't avoid damage or deflect blows somehow, he's in trouble (see Helpless Defenders, page 153).

QuoteDungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, Core Rulebook I v.3.5; page 153:
Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).
Coup de Grace: As a full round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Here's an obscure game's take on HP:

Quote from: Shades of Fantasy (1992), p.5Probably the most abstract facet of this or any other roleplaying game is the idea of wound points. Wound points represent how much damage an individual can take before he falls unconscious or dead. The amount of wound points rises as an individual goes up in ability and expertise; this in a very abstract way represents a character's ability to stay alive in certain situations where those of lesser ability and destiny would certainly fall.

At first level an individual's wound points are his base Stamina Requisite plus one wound dice. Every level thereafter an individual rolls an additional wound dice, the type of dice being determined by a character's Stamina (see the Stamina Requisite).

Another,

Quote from: Waste World (1997), p. 120Life force is a measure of how much damage your PC can take. It is a measure of how tough and lucky your PC is. It is the thing that will keep you alive when the bullets start flying. When your LF rating reaches zero, you are in big trouble.

The LF you start with is known as your basic life force (BLF). [...] You can choose to increase your character's LF. The cost is based on multiples of your PC's BLF. [BLF is a derived stat; if your Strength changes, your BLF and LF will also go up or down.]

Less obscure,

Quote from: Talislanta 2e (1989), p. 11The average number of hit points which an individual or creature possesses is determined by race [...]. This total is modified, one time only for beginning characters, by adding or subtracting a number of points equal to the individual's Constitution Rating. [Attributes in Tal can be positive or negative. --EW] Thereafter, individuals gain an additional two hit points per every level of ability gained.

That's it, other than stating that characters reduced to zero or negative hit points are unconscious and dying. Note: In Tal 2e, both skills and HP increase with level, although skills (only) can also have experience points spent on them independently of level. Tal 3e (1992), p. 43, is essentially the same, adding only "The character's number of hit points determines the amount of physical damage the character can sustain before dying."

No abstraction, each hit is a wound:

Quote from: Maelstrom (Puffin Books, 1984), page 93

Wounds

(...) When a person is wounded, the first thing to do is to find out how much damage he has taken. This is done by rolling the relevant dice for the weapon concerned, as has already been explained. The wounds are added to the defender's WOUNDS total (...). There is a special method of recording the amount of wounds that a character has taken: each wound must be recorded seperately, as well as being added to an overall total. Thus a character who has been wounded four times for six, three, seven and twelwe points would have this down on his character sheet:

WOUNDS: 6/7/12/7 (28)

(...) If the character mentioned above took another wound, say for four points, he would alter his WOUNDS total like this:

WOUNDS: 6/7/12/7/4 (32)

If the new WOUNDS total was greater than or equal to the character's Endurance score, he would fall unconcious. If the score was greater than one hundred, he would die.

(Armour works by damage reduction.)

Quote from: Maelstrom (Puffin Books, 1984), page 95

After the Fight

Wounds do not heal very quickly. It can take weeks or months to recover fully from a fight. Each wound heals separately (this is why they are written down separately). If a character is in bed, resting, each of his wounds heal at the rate of one point each week. If he continues with his normal life, the rate of healing will be one point every month. (...)
For an example of healing, consider the character we have already wounded to the extent of thirty-two points. At the moment, his WOUNDS look like this:
 

WOUNDS: 6/7/12/7/4 (32)

After four months' travel, it would look like this:

WOUNDS: 2/8/3 (13)

After another month, spent in bed, it would look like this:

WOUNDS: 4 (4)

And after another month in bed or four months on the road, his wounds would be gone altogether.

Yes, and you find something similar in Harnmaster. But to give some focus at least to this thread, the idea seems to be to locate games that do use cumulative hit points, and then to break them down based on whether they treat them purely as the total physical punishment a character can take, or instead treat them abstractly as a combination of physical hardiness, accumulated skill, and "favor of the gods" (etc.)

Just for comparison's sake:

Epic RPG describes "hit points," which it terms "life points," simply as the "physical damage a character can sustain before succumbing to unconsciousness and death." In Epic, life points do not normally increase after character creation unless some magical augmentation or increase in the Vital Attributes that affect it (Build and Vitality) occurs. Instead of life points increasing as characters gain experience, game mechanics portray "higher level" characters as more resilient in combat through improved ability to dodge, parry, shield block, use of magic for protection, etc.

Further, "Damage taken by the character represents degradation of the body. This could be described as cuts, bruises, minor sprains, muscle pulls and so on, depending on the how the area was harmed."

A typical character has 4 life points. All characters have 6 Injury Levels.
These are "represented by boxes on the character log, each of which can contain up the character's LP. When damage is taken, the player adds the damage to the IL box furthest to the left on the log. When it gets full, the remainder is written in the next IL box over. When all six IL boxes are full, the character dies. In essence then, the character can take up to six times his LP (24, if his life points=4)." Look here (http://www.epicrpg.com/downloads/Character%20Sheet.pdf) to see how this is tracked on a character sheet.

There's a little more about how IL's affect character's actions as they become more wounded, but this is the gist of how Epic RPG handles the "hit point" conundrum.

-Andrew
//www.epicrpg.com

Shouldnt this post be in development area? Eh whatever.

I have master time and space, and other stuff with my intergalatic bong, and oh yeah hit points. Platry things.

#1. Players HATE having to record boxes of damage at specific locations. Pluss it gets things way to complex. OUT

#2. Players LIKE the simplicity of hit points BUT hate that a ninja assassain cant take your ass out becuase of your but load of hp. 3.X tried to fix this porblem with coupe's but really... its lacking in its aproach. HP in, lame helpless rules, OUT

in the game im developing (woot :P) Ive called hit points, Hope.
They function as regular hit points would in any dnd game. However you can go into negatives. at 0 hp to -3 you get -1 to every thing (including damage) but you can still fight. You do however start to bleed out. Only rest, healing or what have you will stop this. At -4 hit points or worse youve got to make a save on 3d6 to not die = to your current negative hope, but you can still opt and fight if you save, which is wicked cool.) normaly at -10 you die. However in this system you die ony when you fail your roll (which is an average 12) and your hp is -10. Else you bleed out as normal. Note that this allows you to fight to possibly -18 hp.

This allows for awesome fight till all hope is lost (get it huh? eh eh?) and maybe survie, or have a super cool death.

Secondly, what i'm doing on the case of back stabbage is that weapons classes and talents can cause you to make a fight to survie roll as if you were negative hit points. For example. A 22 cal to the head has the concequence of at getting over 5 to hit on your defence score of automatic roll to live = to the damage delt. You lose hope normally, but it phantom jumps you to 0 hp's to trigger the save or die roll = the damage on 3d6. (this is a 3d6 system)

simularly if you coup some one in bed it triggers the same response. In essence its just like the 3.x version, but with a little more flair to it.

"You loose all hope as the rogue stabs you in the neck with his dagger, make a save or die!"
"A 15"

"That was a close one, your bleeding badly from the neck but it just missed your major viens. You got lucky, what do you do now as hope returns to you that you might live?"

Additionaly, with the systems you get bennies for rolling over the target number to hit and im working out a hit location system for the number you rolled for people who have got to know where they have hit. Typically the lower the number is the more dead on it was, becuase well if it takes a low number to hit you your not very agile, now are you?

just my two creds

Quote from: sithson Shouldnt this post be in development area? Eh whatever.

No, see, you missed the point of the thread - which was really to answer an issue in another thread (the place your bets on 4ed thread) without sidetracking it.  It's not about design, it's simply a recitation of the way D&D handled hit points (as well as some other games).

Other people then used the opportunity to discuss the way other games handle the concept. Whether or not that falls into Design and Theory is pretty subjective.  If you have an issue, take it up with the mods.

I do notice that you take it as an opportunity to tell us, again, about your game - a post which, because it's based strictly on the design of your game, could have been a great opportunity for another thread in the very Design and Theory thread you seem to enjoy so much...

Anyone who starts a long, ranty post with "yawn" is pretty much automatically an asshat in my book.

Don't pretend to be bored by the topic; don't pretend to be cooler than the topic; or actually be bored and/or cooler by staying out.

YMMV.

-O

Y'know, I'd really like to know what game Sithson is doing so I can avoid it like the plague.

I refuse to buy from a writer who can't master the very basics of the craft, and frankly a D&D clone inspired by a cheesy pun for hitpoints is the very definition of lame.

Not that, you know, I ever expect to see this atrocity on a shelf anywhere...

You know, if the bong fuled begining part of that rant wasn't a touch of sarcasim for the yawn portion of that post, I appologise in earnest. I was being silly, and didn't mean for it to sound elitest at all. My bad.

Number two, what do you mean very basics of the craft? This game is still under development so everything about it is still subject to interpitation, or change. I was saying thats the way we have it now, and it could change, also cheesy premise? Life points, hit points, mana points? Common A more thematic name for the way it functions is not out of the question, hope is what we have right now, but that can change, and most likley it will but its not going to sound as dull and drab as hit points. This is not a DnD clone at all, in fact this is more of a back to the roots sort of game, But I wouldn't expect you to understand seeing that you turned me down to help write it spike, even after I offered to pay.  And in fact Im still looking for quality writers, such as yourself to help me develop the game so I DONT end up here being a "asshat". I want to make this a great game, and something you wouldn't want to avoid spike. What could I do to change that?

Finaly the fact that I threw in my "Two creds" was really ment to show this was just an opinon and was to be disregarded. I had no intention to derail/abuse this thread, again I appologise.

Quote from: sithsonAnd in fact Im still looking for quality writers, such as yourself to help me develop the game so I DONT end up here being a "asshat".

I'd offer to help, but I'm too busy trying to get my BRIDGE system to gel for my new "Remains of the End" story game (early play-testing has indicated that the "stoic affection" feedback result is coming up far too often when the bid is low).

Quote from: jgants(early play-testing has indicated that the "stoic affection" feedback result is coming up far too often when the bid is low).

:D

Quote from: jgantsI'd offer to help, but I'm too busy trying to get my BRIDGE system to gel for my new "Remains of the End" story game (early play-testing has indicated that the "stoic affection" feedback result is coming up far too often when the bid is low).

??? Do you have a link to your BRIDGE system? Id like to read it.

I specifically mean the writing. You previous post was far from the worst I've seen around here, even from someone writing a game, but it was also far from what I'd expect from...well... someone writing anything.

Perhaps I judge too harshly.

Quote from: SpikeI specifically mean the writing. You previous post was far from the worst I've seen around here, even from someone writing a game, but it was also far from what I'd expect from...well... someone writing anything.

Perhaps I judge too harshly.

Honestly I'm not a terrific writer. Thats why I asked you earlier if you would help. Ive only been trying to write as of late and I find my self struggling to covey my message. Also, alot of this stuff is still in the gaping void I call my head, and so very embryonic to put out on paper. I have convinced my self if I type it (Say) it enough that It will some how make sense...eventually. Still trying to get there. :D

back on subject: Where did Hit point "Kickers" Orginate from?
(I ask since it seems like that this will be the flavor for 4e is using)

Quote from: sithson??? Do you have a link to your BRIDGE system? Id like to read it.

I discussed some of the mechanics here. (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=154898&postcount=16)

Quote from: jgantsI discussed some of the mechanics here. (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=154898&postcount=16)

Dude, I've said it before, but I'll say it again.  I genuinely hope that you're serious about this, because I'll play the hell out of it if you are.

!i!

Quote from: sithson Shouldnt this post be in development area? Eh whatever.

Hmm, I'll let the bait swim on by. James, obryn and Spike summed it up quite nicely.

Wolf, keep reading. I already applogied for thouse comments.

QuoteWolf, keep reading. I already applogied for thouse comments.

np Sithson. :) Like water under the bridge.