Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou mean how we used to take weapons like glaive-guisarmes and pikes into dungeons because they ranked in with really boss to-hit mods?  That went along sweetly until someone finally read the details of the weapon charts and pointed out that they were something like 10 to 18 feet long. :rolleyes:

!i!

Phew...

We only went with the Halberd....always the fucking Halberd....

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOr the great debate we had as teens: How many Hit Points do you have when you sleep?

!i!

If you look at the 3.5 entry, you'll notice I snipped something on "Damaging Helpless Defenders.  That section (I'll quote it tonight when I have the book) says someone like "A dagger in the eye is a dagger in the eye."  The point (no pun intended) being that hit points are kind of meaningless if someone is out cold - you just put a dagger through their eye and presto!

So the answer to your debate?  None, apparently

Hit points and AC make absolute sense if you assume that PCs are like ironclad battleships (possibly because the terms, and some of the mechanics, were originally invented by Dave Arneson for a wargame about ironclad battleships IIRC). If you don't hit someone hard enough to really affect them at all - if your shot simply bounces off their armour - then no HP is lost. If at least some of the force of your hit penetrates the armour, then your hull is going to be weakened - HP lost. Eventually, if your hull is weakened enough you'll get a big hole in it and sink (HP go down to 0).

Quote from: WarthurHit points and AC make absolute sense if you assume that PCs are like ironclad battleships...

They also make absolute sense, in my opinion, if you assume they work as they're described in the books. They're not a mechanic meant to model physics, biology, etc. nor do they function "in-game." They describe meta-game penalties assessed against the character for his or her actions and provide a measure of the degree of penalties the character can withstand.

Most of the dissonance surrounding Hit Points comes from people simply not reading their description and other games taking less abstract or 'in-game" approaches.

Seanchai

Quote from: WarthurHit points and AC make absolute sense if you assume that PCs are like ironclad battleships (possibly because the terms, and some of the mechanics, were originally invented by Dave Arneson for a wargame about ironclad battleships IIRC). If you don't hit someone hard enough to really affect them at all - if your shot simply bounces off their armour - then no HP is lost. If at least some of the force of your hit penetrates the armour, then your hull is going to be weakened - HP lost. Eventually, if your hull is weakened enough you'll get a big hole in it and sink (HP go down to 0).

It's very similar to how I always viewed it.  However, I was hoist by my own petard by doing the research and that quote form the 1st edition PHB. It's pretty clear that hit points seem to occupy this weird never-never land.

It's interesting that the Gygax writes that a certain portion of hit points for a high level character are still representative of physical damage - it's the remainder, the over and above, that represent the other things.

Side Note: Taken all together, this makes me think the way Hinter does it in Iridium is spot-on - armor takes damage first, then when destroyed it gets to the character. Then Magic Armor could use the bonus not only as a defense number, but as a number of hit points

Quote from: SeanchaiThey also make absolute sense, in my opinion, if you assume they work as they're described in the books. They're not a mechanic meant to model physics, biology, etc. nor do they function "in-game." They describe meta-game penalties assessed against the character for his or her actions and provide a measure of the degree of penalties the character can withstand.

Most of the dissonance surrounding Hit Points comes from people simply not reading their description and other games taking less abstract or 'in-game" approaches.

Yeah; I think the split comes at least partially because the terminology wasn't changed from the battleships game.

Quote from: Stuart...

I don't think the concept of "hit points" when applied to a single character works all that well with things like touch attacks, dodging and armour class either.

I think HP are a great abstraction but can be too much of one that tends to break down (like AC) when the assumptions built into it no longer apply.  For straight melee combat ala Chainmail they are superb.  

Yet add in attacks that can kill by simple touch and shouldn 't the part of your HP that represent twisting, dodging, loss of stamina, etc. need to be lost before you are touched?  On touch attacks even AC in AD&D breaks down (or more precisely is now broken apart into Touch AC).

One of the things with HP was (like mentioned above) was the number of HP while asleep.  But I think that was addressed by coup de grace rules in AD&D.

Another was at high level it seemed impossible to stab someone in the back to kill them.  Classical betrayal scenes, et tu Brute, not possible if you are high enough level.  Of cousre everyone in the Senate may have been a high level thief with back-stabbing.  Now that I think about it I'm sure back-stabbing has to be an inherent politician class ability.

Another was jumping off a cliff, my favorite, at 1D6 per 10' a high level fighter could theoretically jump off a 100' cliff with no fear.  But that may have been addressed by System Shock rolls in AD&D, still not a big deal for a high CON fighter.

Lastly with HP, if only a base portion represents actually taking damage, e.g., bleeding, why do you need to make poison saves even for those hits that never connected?

Yet at the end of the day, if the game is fun and not too WTF, go with it.

P.S. for the record I read the PHB cover to cover a couple of time back in the AD&D day, the one "rule" we never ruled was the parry rule.  Probably because it never showed up in the DMG to my knowledge.

Quote from: XantherYet at the end of the day, if the game is fun and not too WTF, go with it.

But in order to deal appropriate with the WTF factor, you have to understand that D&D is a game and that it deals with certain genres (or, in my estimation, its own genre).

You mentioned, for example, Hit Points not allowing high level characters to be quickly assassinated via backstab. They don't, and in my opinion, that's a good thing. D&D is a game, and a game in which you can overcome challenges that quickly or lose what you've spent time building under those circumstances doesn't sound too fun to me. Also, genre-wise, that's not how D&D-esque stories end. The hero or villain don't get quickly taken out from behind.

So, to my mind, the WTF factor has to first take into account the paradigm being utilized. If a gritty, modern day game about quick, brutal assassinations doesn't allow for the types of backstabs we're talking about, I'd say something was wrong. That D&D doesn't is not, for me, a flaw.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiBut in order to deal appropriate with the WTF factor, you have to understand that D&D is a game and that it deals with certain genres (or, in my estimation, its own genre).

You mentioned, for example, Hit Points not allowing high level characters to be quickly assassinated via backstab. They don't, and in my opinion, that's a good thing. D&D is a game, and a game in which you can overcome challenges that quickly or lose what you've spent time building under those circumstances doesn't sound too fun to me. Also, genre-wise, that's not how D&D-esque stories end. The hero or villain don't get quickly taken out from behind.

So, to my mind, the WTF factor has to first take into account the paradigm being utilized. If a gritty, modern day game about quick, brutal assassinations doesn't allow for the types of backstabs we're talking about, I'd say something was wrong. That D&D doesn't is not, for me, a flaw.

Seanchai

Exactly.  It's just the various unpackings of the HP abstraction is fun.  In some cases you get more protection than you might think, in others less.  

I'd have to say that D&D does allow for brutal assassination, or at least in AD&D, you just need an assassin to do it.  Or a bunch of thieves.   Or a nicely poisoned blade.  

3.x's "Massive Damage" rules do go a long way towards, conceptually, separating actual damage from ephemeral advantage/disadvantage stuff.  However the threshold in D&D is extremely high (around 50, iirc), so it's still not possible to assassinate someone without super special assassin-y feats and/or class abilities.

In d20 CoC that threshold is set to 10, and it actually works pretty well to allow for instant death without bogging down with VP/WP ala d20 Star Wars (pre Saga Edition).

D&Disms like hit points and armor class are designed to be played with, not hyper-scrutinized. They fall apart pretty quickly when they're taken out of their element.

As promised upthread:

QuoteDungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, Core Rulebook I v.3.5; page 145:
Damaging Helpless Defenders:Even if you have lots of hit points, a dagger through the eye is a dagger through the eye. When a character is helpless, meaning that he can't avoid damage or deflect blows somehow, he's in trouble (see Helpless Defenders, page 153).

QuoteDungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook, Core Rulebook I v.3.5; page 153:
Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).
Coup de Grace: As a full round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Here's an obscure game's take on HP:

Quote from: Shades of Fantasy (1992), p.5Probably the most abstract facet of this or any other roleplaying game is the idea of wound points. Wound points represent how much damage an individual can take before he falls unconscious or dead. The amount of wound points rises as an individual goes up in ability and expertise; this in a very abstract way represents a character's ability to stay alive in certain situations where those of lesser ability and destiny would certainly fall.

At first level an individual's wound points are his base Stamina Requisite plus one wound dice. Every level thereafter an individual rolls an additional wound dice, the type of dice being determined by a character's Stamina (see the Stamina Requisite).

Another,

Quote from: Waste World (1997), p. 120Life force is a measure of how much damage your PC can take. It is a measure of how tough and lucky your PC is. It is the thing that will keep you alive when the bullets start flying. When your LF rating reaches zero, you are in big trouble.

The LF you start with is known as your basic life force (BLF). [...] You can choose to increase your character's LF. The cost is based on multiples of your PC's BLF. [BLF is a derived stat; if your Strength changes, your BLF and LF will also go up or down.]

Less obscure,

Quote from: Talislanta 2e (1989), p. 11The average number of hit points which an individual or creature possesses is determined by race [...]. This total is modified, one time only for beginning characters, by adding or subtracting a number of points equal to the individual's Constitution Rating. [Attributes in Tal can be positive or negative. --EW] Thereafter, individuals gain an additional two hit points per every level of ability gained.

That's it, other than stating that characters reduced to zero or negative hit points are unconscious and dying. Note: In Tal 2e, both skills and HP increase with level, although skills (only) can also have experience points spent on them independently of level. Tal 3e (1992), p. 43, is essentially the same, adding only "The character's number of hit points determines the amount of physical damage the character can sustain before dying."

No abstraction, each hit is a wound:

Quote from: Maelstrom (Puffin Books, 1984), page 93

Wounds

(...) When a person is wounded, the first thing to do is to find out how much damage he has taken. This is done by rolling the relevant dice for the weapon concerned, as has already been explained. The wounds are added to the defender's WOUNDS total (...). There is a special method of recording the amount of wounds that a character has taken: each wound must be recorded seperately, as well as being added to an overall total. Thus a character who has been wounded four times for six, three, seven and twelwe points would have this down on his character sheet:

WOUNDS: 6/7/12/7 (28)

(...) If the character mentioned above took another wound, say for four points, he would alter his WOUNDS total like this:

WOUNDS: 6/7/12/7/4 (32)

If the new WOUNDS total was greater than or equal to the character's Endurance score, he would fall unconcious. If the score was greater than one hundred, he would die.

(Armour works by damage reduction.)

Quote from: Maelstrom (Puffin Books, 1984), page 95

After the Fight

Wounds do not heal very quickly. It can take weeks or months to recover fully from a fight. Each wound heals separately (this is why they are written down separately). If a character is in bed, resting, each of his wounds heal at the rate of one point each week. If he continues with his normal life, the rate of healing will be one point every month. (...)
For an example of healing, consider the character we have already wounded to the extent of thirty-two points. At the moment, his WOUNDS look like this:
 

WOUNDS: 6/7/12/7/4 (32)

After four months' travel, it would look like this:

WOUNDS: 2/8/3 (13)

After another month, spent in bed, it would look like this:

WOUNDS: 4 (4)

And after another month in bed or four months on the road, his wounds would be gone altogether.

Yes, and you find something similar in Harnmaster. But to give some focus at least to this thread, the idea seems to be to locate games that do use cumulative hit points, and then to break them down based on whether they treat them purely as the total physical punishment a character can take, or instead treat them abstractly as a combination of physical hardiness, accumulated skill, and "favor of the gods" (etc.)