I'm a game designer. My gaming group is my alpha test group, and they are very good at it. I write a LOT of games. Since the beginning of last year, I designed and developed Aces In Spades, Aces And Angels, Sweet Chariot 2, Blood Games II, and Wild Blue; and playtested FtA! This in addition to playing Qin, D&D, CoC, StarCluster 2, and Ringworld.

My group LONGS for more time spent with each game, even though they love playing new games. They want to have a proper long term campaign, where they can sit down with the same character and progress through several years of gameplay - really get to know the characters. They constantly harp about how I throw games at them only long enough for them to really get into playing them before I start a new one. This is true. I can't see any way around it. Either I stop coming up with new games, stop playtesting my new games, or things stay as they are, and neither of the first two are realistically going to happen.

So I'm going back to Blood Games II, with their old characters. We started Saturday, they fell immediately into their old characters without a hesitation, and loved it. Meanwhile, I want to start testing Pigboats...

-clash

Quote from: HaffrungI wonder how many people who advocate trying new RPG systems are as adventurous in other aspects of their lives. How many stray from SF/Fantasy novels into the latest Booker prize nominees, or 19th century history? How many take the effort to learn to prepare Thai or Indian food? How many watch foreign films, or seek out obscure musical genres?

No doubt some like to seek out novelty in lots of different ways. But I suspect that many are just voracious system and setting wonks who are frustrated that their friends won't come along for the ride.

I do. I read voraciously in many genres and non-generic styles, fiction and non-fiction. I cook Chinese, Japanese, and Singapore style as well as American and Italian. I love Brian Eno and Yoyo Ma, Verdi and the GoGos equally. I love sports as well as games. I think I'm just a voracious omnivore.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI do. I read voraciously in many genres and non-generic styles, fiction and non-fiction. I cook Chinese, Japanese, and Singapore style as well as American and Italian. I love Brian Eno and Yoyo Ma, Verdi and the GoGos equally. I love sports as well as games. I think I'm just a voracious omnivore.

-clash

The wife and I tried making sushi/sashimi at home once. We now always go out for that, unless you count just simple slices of smoked salamon with onion/caper/lemon juice garnish. Damn that's a lot of work.

But yeah, not being blocked by fear of everything that might not go 'right' is a life skill. Otherwise how do you ever get to Da Michele's of life to start with?

Moderation, really, is the key.

What I take from Balbinus's post, unless he's just being a reactionary unimaginative berk, is that there are really very good reasons for people to decline trying new things when we offer them, and one ought to respect that.

The thing that strikes me, most of the time, when someone complains about other people not trying new things, is the self-interest masquerading as altruism. It's not just any new thing, it's their new thing. Or it's striking a blow against the hegemony of D&D* in hopes that by fragmenting the monolith, an environment more hospitable to their new thing will develop.

The other thing is just how very silly this all is, and how it leads to nonsense like me and David and Lancer, probably others whom I'm forgetting, hammering out the details of what exactly is okay to say, and what sorts of dickery it's okay to call dickery, and so forth, as if by composing a sort of detailed Credo in words we could impose social harmony on our diverse opinions. In reality the exact formulations don't matter, it's whether someone's trying to start a fight or simply won't take "no" for an answer.

*Sometimes it's "traditional games".

I wouldn't try a new game for newness sake. But I see no harm in at least looking at a new system if it was in the genre I liked.

 D&D in its various incarnations is not for me. I know this because I've played it.  So when asked I am able to articulate why D&D doesn't work for me. Without being hostile to people who love it.

  My frustration in finding players for my non-D&D fantasy game is not with those who have sampled the fantasy game market and decided that D&D is best for them.

 It's those that have only played D&D and totally refuse anything else in the fantasy genre without even looking at it.

 Of course this may just mean that D&D has solidly become its own genre - and other fantasy games just don't register because they're not D&D.



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Saying people should try new things is retarded.  They should try new things if they want to, and not try new things if they don't.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable position to take to not want to try new systems.  If you really like the games you are already playing, there's really no need to switch to a new system.  Not everyone wants to have to relearn yet another system, and many don't want to go around buying new books every couple of weeks.

For example, I used to love trying new systems.  Now, not so much.  I've seen enough that I don't really need to see any more.  I'm good.  I have my favorites for each genre, and I'll stick with them.

To me, the "what's the harm" argument sounds like whining from people frustrated that everyone else doesn't share their tastes.

Quote from: jgantsSaying people should try new things is retarded.  They should try new things if they want to, and not try new things if they don't.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable position to take to not want to try new systems.  If you really like the games you are already playing, there's really no need to switch to a new system.  Not everyone wants to have to relearn yet another system, and many don't want to go around buying new books every couple of weeks.

For example, I used to love trying new systems.  Now, not so much.  I've seen enough that I don't really need to see any more.  I'm good.  I have my favorites for each genre, and I'll stick with them.

To me, the "what's the harm" argument sounds like whining from people frustrated that everyone else doesn't share their tastes.

Is it a problem to ask people to try new things if you take "No" for an answer? Because that's me.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceIs it a problem to ask people to try new things if you take "No" for an answer? Because that's me.

-clash

Of course.

Asking "would you like to try X?" is fine.  Saying "What do you mean you don't want to try X?" is where I see the problem (or "Why won't you try X?  What's wrong with you?").

Quote from: jgantsOf course.

Asking "would you like to try X?" is fine.  Saying "What do you mean you don't want to try X?" is where I see the problem (or "Why won't you try X?  What's wrong with you?").

Walkerp, are you listening? Can you imagine that your friends would not cherish being in this position? How they might reject even the attempt at something new in order to avoid the above?

I don't know if that's you... but it sure seems to be.

Edit: Sorry if that is to personal. Not meant as an attack.

Quote from: jgantsSaying people should try new things is retarded.  They should try new things if they want to, and not try new things if they don't.

Conversely, saying people should not try new things is equally retarded.  The original post claimed that if you're having fun with your games, the only reason to try something new is if you like newness for newness' sake.  

I have no problem with people who only play one game.  Unlike Elliot, I don't particularly believe in moderation as a principle, although I am fairly moderate within the set of gamers.  Only playing one game, or constantly trying new games, both seem fine to me if that's what you enjoy -- and I've seen both.

Quote from: darWalkerp, are you listening? Can you imagine that your friends would not cherish being in this position? How they might reject even the attempt at something new in order to avoid the above?

Here's how it went with me.  "Hey guys, I've got a one-shot I've been working on for the con, is anybody interested in playing it with me once beforehand to playtest it."

Several players: "Yeah, sure, sounds cool."

Me:  "I'm going to try out this new system that I think would work best for it, it's called Savage Worlds."

Players:  "What Savage Worlds!  No way! Savage Worlds sucks."

None of them had ever played it before, probably not even read the book.

When a tree stops growing, it starts to die.

Quote from: HaffrungI wonder how many people who advocate trying new RPG systems are as adventurous in other aspects of their lives. How many stray from SF/Fantasy novels into the latest Booker prize nominees, or 19th century history? How many take the effort to learn to prepare Thai or Indian food? How many watch foreign films, or seek out obscure musical genres?

All the time, personally, and I consider myself a stodgy and habit-bound fellow at heart. Don't underestimate the fun of being surprised.
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Quote from: jhkimI have no problem with people who only play one game.  Unlike Elliot, I don't particularly believe in moderation as a principle, although I am fairly moderate within the set of gamers.  Only playing one game, or constantly trying new games, both seem fine to me if that's what you enjoy -- and I've seen both.

?? How do you interpret what I wrote as disagreement with any of the stuff I've bolded?

Nevermind, maybe I typed something wrong. The point is, as a personal philosophy, I doubt anyone should be dead-set against ever trying anything new. Nor do I think anyone really is. I just think that people try new things when they feel like it, and they don't need to feel obligated to do any more or less than that.

Hey all,

The OP goes a little further than I meant to in one bit actually.

"Trying new things makes sense if you enjoy the new for being new, or if you're not having a blast with your current game. If you are having a blast with your current game, and have limited time in which to game, I'd argue that trying new things is probably irrational behaviour. That's why many people don't do it, it's not close-mindedness (always, sometimes it is obviously), it's rational choice."

Should read

"Trying new things makes sense if you enjoy the new for being new, or if you're not having a blast with your current game, or if you just feel like a change. If you are having a blast with your current game, and have limited time in which to game, I'd argue that declining to try new things can be rational behaviour though. That's why many people  do it, it's not close-mindedness (always, sometimes it is obviously), it's rational choice."

My point wasn't that trying new stuff is bad, most of what my group plays is new stuff to most if not all of us.  In the last year each of Malefices, Te Deum, Traveller actually and Gangbusters were new to all or all but one of the group.  The RC game is over a year old, but when that started only two of us had ever played that before.

My point was that declining new stuff can be rational no matter what WalkerP thinks (and I so often agree with him too, not on this though), and that embracing the new doesn't make one superior to those who have good reason not to, and good reason includes being happy with what you have.

Eliot thankfully read my post right, despite the error in it flagged above, charitable reading people, I link in my sig to what I'm playing or running and it changes regularly, I'd hope folk could work out I was not advocating us all playing only one game (particularly OWoD, which I personally dislike rather strongly).

And in my experience, suggesting something new but being prepared to take a no (which is fine) all too often becomes quite quickly suggesting the person saying no is an unimaginative small c conservative who is missing out on life's rich tapestry, which to me is a lot to judge from one game preference.

On this:

"How many stray from SF/Fantasy novels into the latest Booker prize nominees, or 19th century history? How many take the effort to learn to prepare Thai or Indian food? How many watch foreign films, or seek out obscure musical genres?"

I have read one of this year's booker longlist and have two others I plan to read once they hit paperback, I read 19th Century history, I've learnt to cook Thai food and I regularly watch foreign films.  I also seek out obscure musical genres.

I mean, those things aren't my whole life, but I thought it was funny I could say yes to the whole list.