Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items.  Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system.

I like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre.  You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items.  Frex in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon the characters can walk up walls, leap up to rooftops, and fight while standing on swaying bamboo 30 feet up in the air (maybe that last was a different movie, whatever) and it's not magic, it's just what you can do if your skill is great enough.  In real life no amount of skill will let you do these things, so my engineering side says it must be magic, but in the context of the story, it's just not.  So maybe in an RPG your katana really _can_ cut through a tank's barrel and it's not magic but the result of an extremely high crafting roll.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2022, 02:47:27 AM

I like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre.  You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items.  Frex in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon the characters can walk up walls, leap up to rooftops, and fight while standing on swaying bamboo 30 feet up in the air (maybe that last was a different movie, whatever) and it's not magic, it's just what you can do if your skill is great enough.  In real life no amount of skill will let you do these things, so my engineering side says it must be magic, but in the context of the story, it's just not.  So maybe in an RPG your katana really _can_ cut through a tank's barrel and it's not magic but the result of an extremely high crafting roll.

Yep.  I do tend towards the fairy-tale, fantastical side of things rather than magic as alternate science.  You'll note that in most ways for the items themselves, there's not a dime's worth of mechanical difference between my approach and what Chris described above.  In both settings, you can buy a +1 weapon in a shop in a big city or from a special shop (more the latter for me, since not many big cities).  The difference is one more of side effects, tone, and genre.  In the kind of setting I'm describing, the weapon isn't magic, though magic was possibly used to craft it.  In the other setting, it clearly is magic.  So the mechanical differences in the approaches are all in what that implies for the rest of the rules (e.g. detect magic, monster resistances, etc.).

Both approaches are a logical rationalization of how the item mechanics work in order to fit their respective settings.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items.  Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system. 

Sure, there are items that are clearly not magic (that short sword with no properties beyond the obvious that you can get from any weapon smith in the empire) and items that are clearly magic (holy avenger).  But most of the ones of the +1 variety and some of the +2's are more vague.  The +1's wielded by the king's guard are merely (in the eyes of the locals) exceptionally well-made and recognizable as a distinct thing, perhaps from a particular smith that had a specific technique, that may or may not have included some magic depending on who you ask.  Given that vagueness, it's not necessary for the GM to decide the details for any item until the players take enough interest for it to matter.

I also prefer most of my truly, obviously magic items to be rare, too, but that's a taste thing orthogonal to the above. 

All of this of course has other implications.  For example, "detect magic" can't be binary.  I'm OK with that, too.

One setting I've found which addresses this is Nephilim. It uses an elemental magic system in which five or so flavors of "ka" (basically qi) underlies all of reality. The "occult sciences" are designed to take advantage of this. When someone uses mystic vision, they're not seeing magical and non-magical things, they're seeing the structure of the underlying ka. A magic item doesn't have some quality of "magic" that make it different from a non-magic item, it has a spell woven into it. It's like the different between an engine block and a block of aluminum.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2022, 02:47:27 AMI like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre.  You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items.

There was a wuxia film from the mid 90s called Deadful Melody which featured a magical lyre (not sure of the name of the actual instrument). The power of this lyre was dependent on the player's skill at music.



It is a good idea for an item but I don't think it would work too well in D&D as skill in D&D is mostly dependent on level and there are already magical items that level up with the player.

One thing I've always wanted was some sort of Character Class for magic items. Using the item gives the item XP (forex, killing a monster with a magic sword). As the item gains a new level, you can pick a power from a chart based on the item's character class; so a axe with the Berserker class might give you boosts to damage whereas a sword of the Duelist class might increase your AC. I also figured that if the wielder of the item dies, that item will lose a level, which is how Cursed items are created. But using a cursed item enough might get it to recover the level and become a good item again.

I'm surprised that no one has done something like this before (or, if they have, I've never heard of it.)

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 11, 2022, 12:19:56 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2022, 02:47:27 AMI like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre.  You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items.

There was a wuxia film from the mid 90s called Deadful Melody which featured a magical lyre (not sure of name of the actual instrument). The power of this lyre was dependent on the player's skill at music.



It is a good idea for an item but I don't think it would work too well in D&D as skill in D&D is mostly dependent on level and there are already magical items that level up with the player.

One thing I've always wanted was some sort of Character Class for magic items. Using the item gives the item XP (forex, killing a monster with a magic sword). As the item gains a new level, you can pick a power from a chart based on the item's character class; so a axe with the Berserker class might give you boosts to damage whereas a sword of the Duelist class might increase your AC. I also figured that if the wielder of the item dies, that item will lose a level, which is how Cursed items are created. But using a cursed item enough might get it to recover the level and become a good item again.

I'm surprised that no one has done something like this before (or, if they have, I've never heard of it.)

Weapons of Legacy, WotC, D&D 3.5

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 08:35:44 AM
I still find that Earthdawn hit the right spot for my magic and magic item needs. Magic use was relatively common (IIRC, 5-10% of people could become adepts), but very few became high-powered (Circle 9+).

Minor magic items (e.g., boots that always kept your feet a comfortable temperature and dry, or a bottle that kept liquids cool) were very common. Some other lesser magic (e.g., blood !magic charms) was uncommon, but adventuring adapts could usually find it. Pattern items that had to be magically woven to their wielder's legend through XP expenditure were far more rare and grew with the power of the wielded (though some capped out before the wielder did).

Earthdawn still to this day still influences all my games I run.   Blood Magic and Evolving magic items are great which I still add into any Fantasy game I run along with weaving elemental magic into basic items to bestow cool minor effects as you described.

There's an old schtick in game design circles which said, "If the rules for combat are longer than any other part of your game, then your game, whatever you say it's about, is going to wind up being mostly about combat."

I think the "magic creep" effect in a lot of D&D games comes from a similar effect borne of the old Dungeon Master's Guide: when you list literally hundreds of different kinds of magic spells and items in the rulebook, a game that deliberately and explicitly constricts players' ability to access those spells and items -- and the in-game options and capacities they enable -- feels frustrating rather than enjoyable.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 14, 2022, 04:40:29 PM
There's an old schtick in game design circles which said, "If the rules for combat are longer than any other part of your game, then your game, whatever you say it's about, is going to wind up being mostly about combat."

I think the "magic creep" effect in a lot of D&D games comes from a similar effect borne of the old Dungeon Master's Guide: when you list literally hundreds of different kinds of magic spells and items in the rulebook, a game that deliberately and explicitly constricts players' ability to access those spells and items -- and the in-game options and capacities they enable -- feels frustrating rather than enjoyable.

Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:28:44 PM
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.

Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:

What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 11, 2022, 12:19:56 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2022, 02:47:27 AMI like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre.  You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items.

There was a wuxia film from the mid 90s called Deadful Melody which featured a magical lyre (not sure of the name of the actual instrument). The power of this lyre was dependent on the player's skill at music.



It is a good idea for an item but I don't think it would work too well in D&D as skill in D&D is mostly dependent on level and there are already magical items that level up with the player.

One thing I've always wanted was some sort of Character Class for magic items. Using the item gives the item XP (forex, killing a monster with a magic sword). As the item gains a new level, you can pick a power from a chart based on the item's character class; so a axe with the Berserker class might give you boosts to damage whereas a sword of the Duelist class might increase your AC. I also figured that if the wielder of the item dies, that item will lose a level, which is how Cursed items are created. But using a cursed item enough might get it to recover the level and become a good item again.

I'm surprised that no one has done something like this before (or, if they have, I've never heard of it.)

You might be surprised. The lyre of building in PF/3.5E requires a performance check to magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, etc.

Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:31:01 AM
Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:

What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?

   It arguably works better in the original concept of an 'open/living' campaign with multiple PCs available to each player to take action in the game while other PCs were occupied, were not as well suited to the adventure at hand, et cetera, as well as a higher rate of PC death. The shift towards '1 PC per player, stick with them throughout the campaign until death/retirement' has changed the parameters.

Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:31:01 AM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:28:44 PM
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.

Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:

What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?

To me, the point of random ability scores is the challenge of making a character that is not based on some kind of plan, but rather seeing what organically emerges from the results you roll. Same with all other random elements of character generation.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 15, 2022, 11:54:39 PM

Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:31:01 AM

Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:28:44 PM
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.

Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:

What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?

To me, the point of random ability scores is the challenge of making a character that is not based on some kind of plan, but rather seeing what organically emerges from the results you roll. Same with all other random elements of character generation.

For me, it's not about a challenge at all.  Taking a random set of stats and imagining what kind of character I can make with it results in characters I never would have thought up to play without the random input.  Some systems work better than other for this.  For some reason LBB Traveller works the best of all, at least for me.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 15, 2022, 11:54:39 PM
To me, the point of random ability scores is the challenge of making a character that is not based on some kind of plan, but rather seeing what organically emerges from the results you roll. Same with all other random elements of character generation.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 16, 2022, 02:15:11 AM
For me, it's not about a challenge at all.  Taking a random set of stats and imagining what kind of character I can make with it results in characters I never would have thought up to play without the random input.

Totally, this is the reason I like random ability score generation as well (and I think you two are essentially saying the same thing, whether you call it a "challenge" or not).

If there's a "risk/reward" factor in there somewhere, I'm not seeing it. (At least, not without stretching the meaning of that phrase to its breaking point, which I'm sure someone will now do  .)

When dealing with magic I always try to keep it interesting.

Want to toss a fireball? Dnd rules you do whatever use whatever and it works. Only thing you don't know is saving throws and damage since that's dice.

But in the games I ran it wasn't so. Oh, sure low level stuff worked allright but 5th level magic had a 1% chance of doing something wrong then 6% had a 2% and 7th had a 3% you get it.

Same with magic items. You find a fireball wand it might have one charge or ten- hey it's used what do you know about it?- but it would usually do what it was supposed to do.

But you got tons of loot and think you can just BUY magic things guess what- ain't happening. Buy a fireball wand sure you're going to know how many shots it has but now there's a 10% chance the thing fizzles that time- a dud- and a 5% chance it's going to sting YOU for some damage like 5 points.

Same with weapons. Find a +2 sword it'll work every time but buy one and each time there's a 5% chance the magic ain't working. So you might hit a werewolf and it might just laugh.

The idea behind this- and having a backstory is what makes a game more interesting not just make it up as you go blarney- is that "lost" things you find were made when people were better at it, but now it ain't so so things don't work as good.