Low Powered vs High? Common vs Rare? Talking about the use of magic, magic power levels, and magic items in #dnd / #osr games as well as in the Invisible College RPG.
#ttrpg
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.
I've seen PCs stick with a weaker item with a cool name & story, over a mechanically stronger item. There's a Fighter-8 IMC who sticks with his +1 'Nar Hero Sword' longsword, letting other PCs take the +3 battleaxe & Scimitar of Speed.
Got to agree with the Grognard, its not really DnD if you dont have +5 Holy Avengers.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.
Pretty much.
I also love how "rare + low power" seems to always be the presumed "better" option whenever anyone pontificates on magic items in rpgs whereas magic items in fiction tend
to be rare, but also ridiculously overpowered; ex. armor that cannot be pierced by any weapon forged by man; with possibly some Achilles Heel if the narrative requires it (ex. said armor can be pierced by a weapon forged by a woman or with a rock or bare hands).
By contrast, in the real world there are huge variances in things like accuracy, durability, etc. based on the quality of construction akin to what we see with the basic magic weapon and armor bonuses... and processes we now know the science behind these superior items (ex. the canister steel used in certain Viking swords) were once considered magic secrets known to certain smiths.
Which is why I generally find that what works best in my campaigns is for low powered permanent magic items to actually be common enough you can buy them in cities... not at a vendor, but through brokers who manage such transactions (low powered items are also closer to the superior items some smiths could produce with their 'magical secrets' rather than what would be considered magic in a modern sense).
Only truly powerful items are rare and powerful and are generally either lost in ruins of bygone ages or already in the hands of powerful beings who have no desire to part with it.
By including low powered magic items for sale, but making them well beyond the PC's starting price range, you give them all something to motivate them in the near term without needing to get metagame-y with things like "wish lists." It also gives them a way to offload items they don't want to keep because the brokers for such things already exist, they're just using the other end of their services.
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items. Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system.
Sure, there are items that are clearly not magic (that short sword with no properties beyond the obvious that you can get from any weapon smith in the empire) and items that are clearly magic (holy avenger). But most of the ones of the +1 variety and some of the +2's are more vague. The +1's wielded by the king's guard are merely (in the eyes of the locals) exceptionally well-made and recognizable as a distinct thing, perhaps from a particular smith that had a specific technique, that may or may not have included some magic depending on who you ask. Given that vagueness, it's not necessary for the GM to decide the details for any item until the players take enough interest for it to matter.
I also prefer most of my truly, obviously magic items to be rare, too, but that's a taste thing orthogonal to the above.
All of this of course has other implications. For example, "detect magic" can't be binary. I'm OK with that, too.
I still find that Earthdawn hit the right spot for my magic and magic item needs. Magic use was relatively common (IIRC, 5-10% of people could become adepts), but very few became high-powered (Circle 9+).
Minor magic items (e.g., boots that always kept your feet a comfortable temperature and dry, or a bottle that kept liquids cool) were very common. Some other lesser magic (e.g., blood !magic charms) was uncommon, but adventuring adapts could usually find it. Pattern items that had to be magically woven to their wielder's legend through XP expenditure were far more rare and grew with the power of the wielded (though some capped out before the wielder did).
The Net Wizard's Handbook gives magic utility on a two-axis spectrum. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.enworld.org/attachments/64586487-net-wizard-s-handbook-third-edition-pdf.107598/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
There are other axes that have been used for magic systems in fiction, but that one is the most immediately useful here. The answer is: pick the level of magic you like based on what you're trying to achieve.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.
Same with spellcasting and magical powers. Making a lametastic spell more lengthy and/or difficult to cast or master, but keeping its actual mechanical effects minimal isn't going to make magic more "special". That's just going to make magic characters less capable or attractive choices, or limit the usability of magic in the game. And certain powers mentioned in the video (like Time Travel or Dimension Travel), while certainly "powerful" conceptually speaking and potentially impactful to a campaign to the point of wrecking internal consistency, also tend to work better like plot devices in practice rather than providing genuine or obvious in-game benefits to PCs--unless you're able to change the past and undo disastrous stuff (which falls under "campaign wrecking stuff"), or use them as a stand-in for teleportation to escape harm (which probably won't happen if they have lengthy preparation periods). Otherwise they just work more as devices to move the plot somehow, as a stepping stone for extra-planar or time travel adventures, which isn't as much a "game-benefit" as it is a special opportunity for odd adventures that may as well rely on a pre-existing portal, unless the PCs want to feel "special", but not get any actual benefit beyond bragging rights on being the ones who popped the doorway open.
Unless a power or magic item is truly powerful in concrete, numerical game terms, all the "color", rarity and background BS won't make them genuinely more meaningful beyond "RP" stuff, which doesn't require game stats.
Quote from: VisionStorm on March 10, 2022, 12:57:15 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.
Same with spellcasting and magical powers. Making a lametastic spell more lengthy and/or difficult to cast or master, but keeping its actual mechanical effects minimal isn't going to make magic more "special". That's just going to make magic characters less capable or attractive choices, or limit the usability of magic in the game. And certain powers mentioned in the video (like Time Travel or Dimension Travel), while certainly "powerful" conceptually speaking and potentially impactful to a campaign to the point of wrecking internal consistency, also tend to work better like plot devices in practice rather than providing genuine or obvious in-game benefits to PCs--unless you're able to change the past and undo disastrous stuff (which falls under "campaign wrecking stuff"), or use them as a stand-in for teleportation to escape harm (which probably won't happen if they have lengthy preparation periods). Otherwise they just work more as devices to move the plot somehow, as a stepping stone for extra-planar or time travel adventures, which isn't as much a "game-benefit" as it is a special opportunity for odd adventures that may as well rely on a pre-existing portal, unless the PCs want to feel "special", but not get any actual benefit beyond bragging rights on being the ones who popped the doorway open.
Unless a power or magic item is truly powerful in concrete, numerical game terms, all the "color", rarity and background BS won't make them genuinely more meaningful beyond "RP" stuff, which doesn't require game stats.
I remember reading the Exalted 1e Fair Folk charms in Graceful Wicked Masks. Some were several paragraphs of flowery description intertwined with the mechanics, and after reading them I was still left wondering WTF some of the charms actually did. This also occurred to a lesser degree with the 1e Sidereals book, which shared the same writer(s).
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.
It will if the big bad has an armor that makes it immune to normal weapons.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items. Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system.
Sure, there are items that are clearly not magic (that short sword with no properties beyond the obvious that you can get from any weapon smith in the empire) and items that are clearly magic (holy avenger). But most of the ones of the +1 variety and some of the +2's are more vague. The +1's wielded by the king's guard are merely (in the eyes of the locals) exceptionally well-made and recognizable as a distinct thing, perhaps from a particular smith that had a specific technique, that may or may not have included some magic depending on who you ask. Given that vagueness, it's not necessary for the GM to decide the details for any item until the players take enough interest for it to matter.
I also prefer most of my truly, obviously magic items to be rare, too, but that's a taste thing orthogonal to the above.
All of this of course has other implications. For example, "detect magic" can't be binary. I'm OK with that, too.
This is something i never thought of but actually is pretty cool
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 10, 2022, 07:17:54 AM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.
Pretty much.
I also love how "rare + low power" seems to always be the presumed "better" option whenever anyone pontificates on magic items in rpgs whereas magic items in fiction tend
to be rare, but also ridiculously overpowered; ex. armor that cannot be pierced by any weapon forged by man; with possibly some Achilles Heel if the narrative requires it (ex. said armor can be pierced by a weapon forged by a woman or with a rock or bare hands).
Well, in the video I talk about Durendal, Joyeuse and Cortana, three of the most significant magic swords ever created. I'm not against rare magic also sometimes being very powerful magic. But without the constant power-creep effect of standard "every 1st level character has several magic items by 2nd" D&D, the "powerful" magic also doesn't HAVE to be super-powerful.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items. Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system.
Sure, there are items that are clearly not magic (that short sword with no properties beyond the obvious that you can get from any weapon smith in the empire) and items that are clearly magic (holy avenger). But most of the ones of the +1 variety and some of the +2's are more vague. The +1's wielded by the king's guard are merely (in the eyes of the locals) exceptionally well-made and recognizable as a distinct thing, perhaps from a particular smith that had a specific technique, that may or may not have included some magic depending on who you ask. Given that vagueness, it's not necessary for the GM to decide the details for any item until the players take enough interest for it to matter.
I also prefer most of my truly, obviously magic items to be rare, too, but that's a taste thing orthogonal to the above.
All of this of course has other implications. For example, "detect magic" can't be binary. I'm OK with that, too.
Yes, in Lion & Dragon, I have options for master-crafted weapons. Also for super-mastercraft stuff like Iberian Steel. They give important bonuses without being magical.
Hell, in L&D there's also a rule that you can pick one and only one weapon, give it a name, and that weapon will have a +1 to hit for the person who named it.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 10, 2022, 07:17:54 AM
I also love how "rare + low power" seems to always be the presumed "better" option whenever anyone pontificates on magic items in rpgs whereas magic items in fiction tend
to be rare, but also ridiculously overpowered; ex. armor that cannot be pierced by any weapon forged by man; with possibly some Achilles Heel if the narrative requires it (ex. said armor can be pierced by a weapon forged by a woman or with a rock or bare hands).
By contrast, in the real world there are huge variances in things like accuracy, durability, etc. based on the quality of construction akin to what we see with the basic magic weapon and armor bonuses... and processes we now know the science behind these superior items (ex. the canister steel used in certain Viking swords) were once considered magic secrets known to certain smiths.
Which is why I generally find that what works best in my campaigns is for low powered permanent magic items to actually be common enough you can buy them in cities... not at a vendor, but through brokers who manage such transactions (low powered items are also closer to the superior items some smiths could produce with their 'magical secrets' rather than what would be considered magic in a modern sense).
Only truly powerful items are rare and powerful and are generally either lost in ruins of bygone ages or already in the hands of powerful beings who have no desire to part with it.
By including low powered magic items for sale, but making them well beyond the PC's starting price range, you give them all something to motivate them in the near term without needing to get metagame-y with things like "wish lists." It also gives them a way to offload items they don't want to keep because the brokers for such things already exist, they're just using the other end of their services.
This is my typical approach for a medium-magic setting, yup.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items. Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system.
I like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre. You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items. Frex in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon the characters can walk up walls, leap up to rooftops, and fight while standing on swaying bamboo 30 feet up in the air (maybe that last was a different movie, whatever) and it's not magic, it's just what you can do if your skill is great enough. In real life no amount of skill will let you do these things, so my engineering side says it must be magic, but in the context of the story, it's just not. So maybe in an RPG your katana really _can_ cut through a tank's barrel and it's not magic but the result of an extremely high crafting roll.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2022, 02:47:27 AM
I like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre. You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items. Frex in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon the characters can walk up walls, leap up to rooftops, and fight while standing on swaying bamboo 30 feet up in the air (maybe that last was a different movie, whatever) and it's not magic, it's just what you can do if your skill is great enough. In real life no amount of skill will let you do these things, so my engineering side says it must be magic, but in the context of the story, it's just not. So maybe in an RPG your katana really _can_ cut through a tank's barrel and it's not magic but the result of an extremely high crafting roll.
Yep. I do tend towards the fairy-tale, fantastical side of things rather than magic as alternate science. You'll note that in most ways for the items themselves, there's not a dime's worth of mechanical difference between my approach and what Chris described above. In both settings, you can buy a +1 weapon in a shop in a big city or from a special shop (more the latter for me, since not many big cities). The difference is one more of side effects, tone, and genre. In the kind of setting I'm describing, the weapon isn't magic, though magic was possibly used to craft it. In the other setting, it clearly is magic. So the mechanical differences in the approaches are all in what that implies for the rest of the rules (e.g. detect magic, monster resistances, etc.).
Both approaches are a logical rationalization of how the item mechanics work in order to fit their respective settings.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items. Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system.
Sure, there are items that are clearly not magic (that short sword with no properties beyond the obvious that you can get from any weapon smith in the empire) and items that are clearly magic (holy avenger). But most of the ones of the +1 variety and some of the +2's are more vague. The +1's wielded by the king's guard are merely (in the eyes of the locals) exceptionally well-made and recognizable as a distinct thing, perhaps from a particular smith that had a specific technique, that may or may not have included some magic depending on who you ask. Given that vagueness, it's not necessary for the GM to decide the details for any item until the players take enough interest for it to matter.
I also prefer most of my truly, obviously magic items to be rare, too, but that's a taste thing orthogonal to the above.
All of this of course has other implications. For example, "detect magic" can't be binary. I'm OK with that, too.
One setting I've found which addresses this is
Nephilim. It uses an elemental magic system in which five or so flavors of "ka" (basically qi) underlies all of reality. The "occult sciences" are designed to take advantage of this. When someone uses mystic vision, they're not seeing magical and non-magical things, they're seeing the structure of the underlying ka. A magic item doesn't have some quality of "magic" that make it different from a non-magic item, it has a spell woven into it. It's like the different between an engine block and a block of aluminum.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2022, 02:47:27 AMI like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre. You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items.
There was a wuxia film from the mid 90s called Deadful Melody which featured a magical lyre (not sure of the name of the actual instrument). The power of this lyre was dependent on the player's skill at music.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mv5bmzczm2y3zjitndi2ny00nda2lthln2mtyju2nda5ntcxmdiyxkeyxkfqcgdeqxvymjqwmjk0nji_v1.jpg)
It is a good idea for an item but I don't think it would work too well in D&D as skill in D&D is mostly dependent on level and there are already magical items that level up with the player.
One thing I've always wanted was some sort of Character Class for magic items. Using the item gives the item XP (forex, killing a monster with a magic sword). As the item gains a new level, you can pick a power from a chart based on the item's character class; so a axe with the Berserker class might give you boosts to damage whereas a sword of the Duelist class might increase your AC. I also figured that if the wielder of the item dies, that item will lose a level, which is how Cursed items are created. But using a cursed item enough might get it to recover the level and become a good item again.
I'm surprised that no one has done something like this before (or, if they have, I've never heard of it.)
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 11, 2022, 12:19:56 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2022, 02:47:27 AMI like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre. You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items.
There was a wuxia film from the mid 90s called Deadful Melody which featured a magical lyre (not sure of name of the actual instrument). The power of this lyre was dependent on the player's skill at music.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mv5bmzczm2y3zjitndi2ny00nda2lthln2mtyju2nda5ntcxmdiyxkeyxkfqcgdeqxvymjqwmjk0nji_v1.jpg)
It is a good idea for an item but I don't think it would work too well in D&D as skill in D&D is mostly dependent on level and there are already magical items that level up with the player.
One thing I've always wanted was some sort of Character Class for magic items. Using the item gives the item XP (forex, killing a monster with a magic sword). As the item gains a new level, you can pick a power from a chart based on the item's character class; so a axe with the Berserker class might give you boosts to damage whereas a sword of the Duelist class might increase your AC. I also figured that if the wielder of the item dies, that item will lose a level, which is how Cursed items are created. But using a cursed item enough might get it to recover the level and become a good item again.
I'm surprised that no one has done something like this before (or, if they have, I've never heard of it.)
Weapons of Legacy, WotC, D&D 3.5
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2022, 08:35:44 AM
I still find that Earthdawn hit the right spot for my magic and magic item needs. Magic use was relatively common (IIRC, 5-10% of people could become adepts), but very few became high-powered (Circle 9+).
Minor magic items (e.g., boots that always kept your feet a comfortable temperature and dry, or a bottle that kept liquids cool) were very common. Some other lesser magic (e.g., blood !magic charms) was uncommon, but adventuring adapts could usually find it. Pattern items that had to be magically woven to their wielder's legend through XP expenditure were far more rare and grew with the power of the wielded (though some capped out before the wielder did).
Earthdawn still to this day still influences all my games I run. Blood Magic and Evolving magic items are great which I still add into any Fantasy game I run along with weaving elemental magic into basic items to bestow cool minor effects as you described.
There's an old schtick in game design circles which said, "If the rules for combat are longer than any other part of your game, then your game, whatever you say it's about, is going to wind up being mostly about combat."
I think the "magic creep" effect in a lot of D&D games comes from a similar effect borne of the old Dungeon Master's Guide: when you list literally hundreds of different kinds of magic spells and items in the rulebook, a game that deliberately and explicitly constricts players' ability to access those spells and items -- and the in-game options and capacities they enable -- feels frustrating rather than enjoyable.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on March 14, 2022, 04:40:29 PM
There's an old schtick in game design circles which said, "If the rules for combat are longer than any other part of your game, then your game, whatever you say it's about, is going to wind up being mostly about combat."
I think the "magic creep" effect in a lot of D&D games comes from a similar effect borne of the old Dungeon Master's Guide: when you list literally hundreds of different kinds of magic spells and items in the rulebook, a game that deliberately and explicitly constricts players' ability to access those spells and items -- and the in-game options and capacities they enable -- feels frustrating rather than enjoyable.
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.
Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:28:44 PM
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.
Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:
What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 11, 2022, 12:19:56 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on March 11, 2022, 02:47:27 AMI like this take, though I feel it's not appropriate to every genre. You see something like this in wuxia films, though more related to skills than items.
There was a wuxia film from the mid 90s called Deadful Melody which featured a magical lyre (not sure of the name of the actual instrument). The power of this lyre was dependent on the player's skill at music.
(https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/mv5bmzczm2y3zjitndi2ny00nda2lthln2mtyju2nda5ntcxmdiyxkeyxkfqcgdeqxvymjqwmjk0nji_v1.jpg)
It is a good idea for an item but I don't think it would work too well in D&D as skill in D&D is mostly dependent on level and there are already magical items that level up with the player.
One thing I've always wanted was some sort of Character Class for magic items. Using the item gives the item XP (forex, killing a monster with a magic sword). As the item gains a new level, you can pick a power from a chart based on the item's character class; so a axe with the Berserker class might give you boosts to damage whereas a sword of the Duelist class might increase your AC. I also figured that if the wielder of the item dies, that item will lose a level, which is how Cursed items are created. But using a cursed item enough might get it to recover the level and become a good item again.
I'm surprised that no one has done something like this before (or, if they have, I've never heard of it.)
You might be surprised. The lyre of building in PF/3.5E requires a performance check to magically construct buildings, mines, tunnels, etc.
Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:31:01 AM
Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:
What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?
It arguably works better in the original concept of an 'open/living' campaign with multiple PCs available to each player to take action in the game while other PCs were occupied, were not as well suited to the adventure at hand, et cetera, as well as a higher rate of PC death. The shift towards '1 PC per player, stick with them throughout the campaign until death/retirement' has changed the parameters.
Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:31:01 AM
Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:28:44 PM
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.
Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:
What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?
To me, the point of random ability scores is the challenge of making a character that is not based on some kind of plan, but rather seeing what organically emerges from the results you roll. Same with all other random elements of character generation.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 15, 2022, 11:54:39 PM
Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:31:01 AM
Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:28:44 PM
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.
Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:
What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?
To me, the point of random ability scores is the challenge of making a character that is not based on some kind of plan, but rather seeing what organically emerges from the results you roll. Same with all other random elements of character generation.
For me, it's not about a challenge at all. Taking a random set of stats and imagining what kind of character I can make with it results in characters I never would have thought up to play without the random input. Some systems work better than other for this. For some reason LBB Traveller works the best of all, at least for me.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 15, 2022, 11:54:39 PM
To me, the point of random ability scores is the challenge of making a character that is not based on some kind of plan, but rather seeing what organically emerges from the results you roll. Same with all other random elements of character generation.
Quote from: Mishihari on March 16, 2022, 02:15:11 AM
For me, it's not about a challenge at all. Taking a random set of stats and imagining what kind of character I can make with it results in characters I never would have thought up to play without the random input.
Totally, this is the reason I like random ability score generation as well (and I think you two are essentially saying the same thing, whether you call it a "challenge" or not).
If there's a "risk/reward" factor in there somewhere, I'm not seeing it. (At least, not without stretching the meaning of that phrase to its breaking point, which I'm sure someone will now do ;D.)
When dealing with magic I always try to keep it interesting.
Want to toss a fireball? Dnd rules you do whatever use whatever and it works. Only thing you don't know is saving throws and damage since that's dice.
But in the games I ran it wasn't so. Oh, sure low level stuff worked allright but 5th level magic had a 1% chance of doing something wrong then 6% had a 2% and 7th had a 3% you get it.
Same with magic items. You find a fireball wand it might have one charge or ten- hey it's used what do you know about it?- but it would usually do what it was supposed to do.
But you got tons of loot and think you can just BUY magic things guess what- ain't happening. Buy a fireball wand sure you're going to know how many shots it has but now there's a 10% chance the thing fizzles that time- a dud- and a 5% chance it's going to sting YOU for some damage like 5 points.
Same with weapons. Find a +2 sword it'll work every time but buy one and each time there's a 5% chance the magic ain't working. So you might hit a werewolf and it might just laugh.
The idea behind this- and having a backstory is what makes a game more interesting not just make it up as you go blarney- is that "lost" things you find were made when people were better at it, but now it ain't so so things don't work as good.
QuoteTotally, this is the reason I like random ability score generation as well (and I think you two are essentially saying the same thing, whether you call it a "challenge" or not).
If there's a "risk/reward" factor in there somewhere, I'm not seeing it. (At least, not without stretching the meaning of that phrase to its breaking point, which I'm sure someone will now do ;D.)
I mean unique character and interesting story/situations/adventures are it's own REWARD. I'd say most important one in RPG generally.
Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:31:01 AM
Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:28:44 PM
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.
Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:
What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?
It depends on the system, I find it is really pronounced in AD&D though. For instance if you manage to get an 18 in Strength and have a fighter, there's the chance to be starting out with a significant performance boost simply because of percentile strength. Also, depending on how strict the rolling is, if you manage to get a Paladin or Ranger, you might just play it because it's such a rare opportunity. It makes playing those classes special not because of the inherent class characteristics, but because you usually can't.
It's also not that they'll be playing the character through a whole campaign - if you get some bad scores you can just play a reckless character, rush headlong into battle, see what happens. Get a few cool anecdotes from surviving, and when you die you get to roll up another character. So if you get a bad roll, you basically just try again, but you're paying for the mulligan by having to spend some time playing the character and starting your next one at an XP deficit. It's again like gambling.
Quote from: migo on March 29, 2022, 07:01:14 AM
Quote from: Zalman on March 15, 2022, 09:31:01 AM
Quote from: migo on March 14, 2022, 07:28:44 PM
Like random ability score generation, it adds an element of gambling to the game. Critical hit charts too. That makes players want to keep taking risks because of the occasional reward.
Trying to understand this idea ... are you saying that players like "risking" bad ability score roles so much that they keep playing those characters for whole campaigns just in case they're lucky enough in the next campaign to roll a good character? That seems like a stretch, so I gotta ask:
What exactly is the risk/reward scenario around random ability scores?
It depends on the system, I find it is really pronounced in AD&D though. For instance if you manage to get an 18 in Strength and have a fighter, there's the chance to be starting out with a significant performance boost simply because of percentile strength. Also, depending on how strict the rolling is, if you manage to get a Paladin or Ranger, you might just play it because it's such a rare opportunity. It makes playing those classes special not because of the inherent class characteristics, but because you usually can't.
It's also not that they'll be playing the character through a whole campaign - if you get some bad scores you can just play a reckless character, rush headlong into battle, see what happens. Get a few cool anecdotes from surviving, and when you die you get to roll up another character. So if you get a bad roll, you basically just try again, but you're paying for the mulligan by having to spend some time playing the character and starting your next one at an XP deficit. It's again like gambling.
Cool, that all makes sense to me. I guess you and I have a different idea of what "risk/reward" means.
I don't see the "risk" part in a random chance to get either something or something better. It's like door prizes: everyone gets something, but only a few get the really good ones. But no one "risked" anything.
You seem to be saying that the door prize people are "risking" not getting something even better ... which just doesn't sound like what I mean by "risk". For me, risk has to involve something you already have.
The risk is your time. If you want to play a particular type of character, you have to spend a fair amount of time playing a character other than the one you wanted, before you finally get to it.
In my estimation, whether a campaign has many or few magic items, and their comparative power levels, will have much less impact on whether a campaign feels "high magic" or not. You can have a campaign with zero magic items, but if half or more of the PCs are wizards, clerics, druids, bards or other spellcasters then the campaign will still be full of magic. Meanwhile, if you have no spellcasters being played, you can outfit each PC with a few magic items and it will still feel fairly low magic. Magic items are not generally what makes a campaign or setting high magic or low magic, the presence of spellcasters with powerful spells is.