Low Powered vs High? Common vs Rare? Talking about the use of magic, magic power levels, and magic items in #dnd / #osr games as well as in the Invisible College RPG.
#ttrpg

We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.

I've seen PCs stick with a weaker item with a cool name & story, over a mechanically stronger item. There's a Fighter-8 IMC who sticks with his +1 'Nar Hero Sword' longsword, letting other PCs take the +3 battleaxe & Scimitar of Speed.

Got to agree with the Grognard, its not really DnD if you dont have +5 Holy Avengers.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.

Pretty much.

I also love how "rare + low power" seems to always be the presumed "better" option whenever anyone pontificates on magic items in rpgs whereas magic items in fiction tend
to be rare, but also ridiculously overpowered; ex. armor that cannot be pierced by any weapon forged by man; with possibly some Achilles Heel if the narrative requires it (ex. said armor can be pierced by a weapon forged by a woman or with a rock or bare hands).

By contrast, in the real world there are huge variances in things like accuracy, durability, etc. based on the quality of construction akin to what we see with the basic magic weapon and armor bonuses... and processes we now know the science behind these superior items (ex. the canister steel used in certain Viking swords) were once considered magic secrets known to certain smiths.

Which is why I generally find that what works best in my campaigns is for low powered permanent magic items to actually be common enough you can buy them in cities... not at a vendor, but through brokers who manage such transactions (low powered items are also closer to the superior items some smiths could produce with their 'magical secrets' rather than what would be considered magic in a modern sense).

Only truly powerful items are rare and powerful and are generally either lost in ruins of bygone ages or already in the hands of powerful beings who have no desire to part with it.

By including low powered magic items for sale, but making them well beyond the PC's starting price range, you give them all something to motivate them in the near term without needing to get metagame-y with things like "wish lists." It also gives them a way to offload items they don't want to keep because the brokers for such things already exist, they're just using the other end of their services.

I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items.  Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system. 

Sure, there are items that are clearly not magic (that short sword with no properties beyond the obvious that you can get from any weapon smith in the empire) and items that are clearly magic (holy avenger).  But most of the ones of the +1 variety and some of the +2's are more vague.  The +1's wielded by the king's guard are merely (in the eyes of the locals) exceptionally well-made and recognizable as a distinct thing, perhaps from a particular smith that had a specific technique, that may or may not have included some magic depending on who you ask.  Given that vagueness, it's not necessary for the GM to decide the details for any item until the players take enough interest for it to matter.

I also prefer most of my truly, obviously magic items to be rare, too, but that's a taste thing orthogonal to the above. 

All of this of course has other implications.  For example, "detect magic" can't be binary.  I'm OK with that, too.

I still find that Earthdawn hit the right spot for my magic and magic item needs. Magic use was relatively common (IIRC, 5-10% of people could become adepts), but very few became high-powered (Circle 9+).

Minor magic items (e.g., boots that always kept your feet a comfortable temperature and dry, or a bottle that kept liquids cool) were very common. Some other lesser magic (e.g., blood !magic charms) was uncommon, but adventuring adapts could usually find it. Pattern items that had to be magically woven to their wielder's legend through XP expenditure were far more rare and grew with the power of the wielded (though some capped out before the wielder did).

The Net Wizard's Handbook gives magic utility on a two-axis spectrum. https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://www.enworld.org/attachments/64586487-net-wizard-s-handbook-third-edition-pdf.107598/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

There are other axes that have been used for magic systems in fiction, but that one is the most immediately useful here. The answer is: pick the level of magic you like based on what you're trying to achieve.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.

Same with spellcasting and magical powers. Making a lametastic spell more lengthy and/or difficult to cast or master, but keeping its actual mechanical effects minimal isn't going to make magic more "special". That's just going to make magic characters less capable or attractive choices, or limit the usability of magic in the game. And certain powers mentioned in the video (like Time Travel or Dimension Travel), while certainly "powerful" conceptually speaking and potentially impactful to a campaign to the point of wrecking internal consistency, also tend to work better like plot devices in practice rather than providing genuine or obvious in-game benefits to PCs--unless you're able to change the past and undo disastrous stuff (which falls under "campaign wrecking stuff"), or use them as a stand-in for teleportation to escape harm (which probably won't happen if they have lengthy preparation periods). Otherwise they just work more as devices to move the plot somehow, as a stepping stone for extra-planar or time travel adventures, which isn't as much a "game-benefit" as it is a special opportunity for odd adventures that may as well rely on a pre-existing portal, unless the PCs want to feel "special", but not get any actual benefit beyond bragging rights on being the ones who popped the doorway open.

Unless a power or magic item is truly powerful in concrete, numerical game terms, all the "color", rarity and background BS won't make them genuinely more meaningful beyond "RP" stuff, which doesn't require game stats.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 10, 2022, 12:57:15 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.

Same with spellcasting and magical powers. Making a lametastic spell more lengthy and/or difficult to cast or master, but keeping its actual mechanical effects minimal isn't going to make magic more "special". That's just going to make magic characters less capable or attractive choices, or limit the usability of magic in the game. And certain powers mentioned in the video (like Time Travel or Dimension Travel), while certainly "powerful" conceptually speaking and potentially impactful to a campaign to the point of wrecking internal consistency, also tend to work better like plot devices in practice rather than providing genuine or obvious in-game benefits to PCs--unless you're able to change the past and undo disastrous stuff (which falls under "campaign wrecking stuff"), or use them as a stand-in for teleportation to escape harm (which probably won't happen if they have lengthy preparation periods). Otherwise they just work more as devices to move the plot somehow, as a stepping stone for extra-planar or time travel adventures, which isn't as much a "game-benefit" as it is a special opportunity for odd adventures that may as well rely on a pre-existing portal, unless the PCs want to feel "special", but not get any actual benefit beyond bragging rights on being the ones who popped the doorway open.

Unless a power or magic item is truly powerful in concrete, numerical game terms, all the "color", rarity and background BS won't make them genuinely more meaningful beyond "RP" stuff, which doesn't require game stats.

I remember reading the Exalted 1e Fair Folk charms in Graceful Wicked Masks. Some were several paragraphs of flowery description intertwined with the mechanics, and after reading them I was still left wondering WTF some of the charms actually did. This also occurred to a lesser degree with the 1e Sidereals book, which shared the same writer(s).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.

It will if the big bad has an armor that makes it immune to normal weapons.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items.  Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system. 

Sure, there are items that are clearly not magic (that short sword with no properties beyond the obvious that you can get from any weapon smith in the empire) and items that are clearly magic (holy avenger).  But most of the ones of the +1 variety and some of the +2's are more vague.  The +1's wielded by the king's guard are merely (in the eyes of the locals) exceptionally well-made and recognizable as a distinct thing, perhaps from a particular smith that had a specific technique, that may or may not have included some magic depending on who you ask.  Given that vagueness, it's not necessary for the GM to decide the details for any item until the players take enough interest for it to matter.

I also prefer most of my truly, obviously magic items to be rare, too, but that's a taste thing orthogonal to the above. 

All of this of course has other implications.  For example, "detect magic" can't be binary.  I'm OK with that, too.

This is something i never thought of but actually is pretty cool

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 10, 2022, 07:17:54 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 09, 2022, 11:03:30 PM
We scoff at players that write three page backstories for their PCs complete with stuff like "she's the only half-elf half-dragon born with purple eyes." So doing the same thing for magic items (giving the backstories and making them rare) isn't going to automatically make said magic-items more interesting. If you want interesting magic items, those items need to be mechanically interesting and significant. No matter how rare a +1 sword is, that +1 sword isn't going to make a difference in actual play so it will never really matter.

Pretty much.

I also love how "rare + low power" seems to always be the presumed "better" option whenever anyone pontificates on magic items in rpgs whereas magic items in fiction tend
to be rare, but also ridiculously overpowered; ex. armor that cannot be pierced by any weapon forged by man; with possibly some Achilles Heel if the narrative requires it (ex. said armor can be pierced by a weapon forged by a woman or with a rock or bare hands).

Well, in the video I talk about Durendal, Joyeuse and Cortana, three of the most significant magic swords ever created. I'm not against rare magic also sometimes being very powerful magic. But without the constant power-creep effect of standard "every 1st level character has several magic items by 2nd" D&D, the "powerful" magic also doesn't HAVE to be super-powerful.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 10, 2022, 07:55:51 AM
I don't like a hard distinction between magic and non-magic, as it takes some of the "magic" out of the magic items.  Yes, that means more GM judgment calls on things like whether this item hurts that monster (readily or even at all), but that's an easy trade for me to make to put some vagueness back into the system. 

Sure, there are items that are clearly not magic (that short sword with no properties beyond the obvious that you can get from any weapon smith in the empire) and items that are clearly magic (holy avenger).  But most of the ones of the +1 variety and some of the +2's are more vague.  The +1's wielded by the king's guard are merely (in the eyes of the locals) exceptionally well-made and recognizable as a distinct thing, perhaps from a particular smith that had a specific technique, that may or may not have included some magic depending on who you ask.  Given that vagueness, it's not necessary for the GM to decide the details for any item until the players take enough interest for it to matter.

I also prefer most of my truly, obviously magic items to be rare, too, but that's a taste thing orthogonal to the above. 

All of this of course has other implications.  For example, "detect magic" can't be binary.  I'm OK with that, too.

Yes, in Lion & Dragon, I have options for master-crafted weapons. Also for super-mastercraft stuff like Iberian Steel.  They give important bonuses without being magical.

Hell, in L&D there's also a rule that you can pick one and only one weapon, give it a name, and that weapon will have  a +1 to hit for the person who named it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 10, 2022, 07:17:54 AM
I also love how "rare + low power" seems to always be the presumed "better" option whenever anyone pontificates on magic items in rpgs whereas magic items in fiction tend
to be rare, but also ridiculously overpowered; ex. armor that cannot be pierced by any weapon forged by man; with possibly some Achilles Heel if the narrative requires it (ex. said armor can be pierced by a weapon forged by a woman or with a rock or bare hands).

By contrast, in the real world there are huge variances in things like accuracy, durability, etc. based on the quality of construction akin to what we see with the basic magic weapon and armor bonuses... and processes we now know the science behind these superior items (ex. the canister steel used in certain Viking swords) were once considered magic secrets known to certain smiths.

Which is why I generally find that what works best in my campaigns is for low powered permanent magic items to actually be common enough you can buy them in cities... not at a vendor, but through brokers who manage such transactions (low powered items are also closer to the superior items some smiths could produce with their 'magical secrets' rather than what would be considered magic in a modern sense).

Only truly powerful items are rare and powerful and are generally either lost in ruins of bygone ages or already in the hands of powerful beings who have no desire to part with it.

By including low powered magic items for sale, but making them well beyond the PC's starting price range, you give them all something to motivate them in the near term without needing to get metagame-y with things like "wish lists." It also gives them a way to offload items they don't want to keep because the brokers for such things already exist, they're just using the other end of their services.

This is my typical approach for a medium-magic setting, yup.