Yeah, I'm not really thinking about the occasional douche who has no knowledge of something, but still feels the need to prattle on about it like an expert. I'm thinking of the general individual involved in wargaming (the 'man on the street' of this instance). What's their motivation to find out what 'wargaming product X, released in year Y' was like?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;938515Sure, but what is the incentive structure to do so?
Let's say I am a 14 year old who just started wargaming. For the sake of argument, I didn't learn from a parent who might know this stuff, but instead picked it up because my friends played. Now I'm rolling dice at my FLGS playing some modern wargame (probably Warhammer). What leads me to say, "I wonder what this game evolved from?"

Granted internet coverage isn't 100% but for most the answer to any question is a search away.  If there is a problem is that they lack the context to ask the right question to get the answer they want. But for your specific point my flippant answer still stands.

What game did wargaming evolve from.

I seen this in action with my both of sons one born in the late 1990s and the other in the middle of the 2000s. Not specifically for wargaming but for other obscure topics related to their interests. Since the debut of smartphones and tablets is a trivial thing to do for many. And for most they just need to remember to look when they get home. For the few that have no personal access to the internet, there is the public library.

This is assuming you live in the United States.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;938515I know how it happens for RPGs (or at least how I got interested). There's a large online community which compares older and newer games (both editions of the 'same game' and between games). That got me interested in pre-BECMI D&D and the history of how the game developed. Is there (and I'm honestly asking, because I don't know) any similar cultural structure that would make a newer wargamer want to investigate what came before, such that they would discover things like whether there were refereed wargames at a given time?

Your fallacy is assuming that your life experience with gaming is typical. It isn't. Nobody is "typical". It is a diverse hobby. Wargaming likewise is a diverse hobby. What wargaming "is" depends on the circumstances just like what RPGs are is dependent on circumstance. I dealt with enough different group of tabletop gamers to know that I don't know everything there is about either hobby. That there are pockets doing things that I am 100% not aware of. That what I experience is not representative of what the majority of hobbyist experience.

What I do know that that a larger social force, the Internet, has made the answer to your question straightforward. Just use the internet to do research. It will either lead you to the answer or to the people that know the answer. Niches of narrow interests will require more extensive searching but the steps are the same.

So the question whether the "culture" of a hobby foster introspection about its past is irrelevant. What matters is the willingness of the individual to seek the answer. There may not be an authority on the past of a hobby. In which case you will have to do original research. Which is harder but again the ongoing development of the Internet makes this way easier than if you were to do this in 1977, 1987 or 1997.

How we know so much about the past of RPG is in part due to two things. The willingness of Gygax, Arneson, and other to participate on forums telling stories of back in the day and answering question. And the community that grew around D&D collection at the Acaeum. The former generated the raw interest, the latter provided the foundation to do research on primary documents like with Jon Peterson's Playing at the World.

Wargaming likewise has the History of Wargaming group and the efforts of various groups to reprint Featherstone's, and Bath's works. And as a side bonus, since the origins of RPGs is so wrapped up in the origins of miniature wargaming, stuff done with one helps with learning about the other.

Quote from: estar;938527What I do know that that a larger social force, the Internet, has made the answer to your question straightforward. Just use the internet to do research. It will either lead you to the answer or to the people that know the answer. Niches of narrow interests will require more extensive searching but the steps are the same.

So the question whether the "culture" of a hobby foster introspection about its past is irrelevant. What matters is the willingness of the individual to seek the answer. There may not be an authority on the past of a hobby. In which case you will have to do original research. Which is harder but again the ongoing development of the Internet makes this way easier than if you were to do this in 1977, 1987 or 1997.

I guess I haven't explained myself well. You've shown how answering the question for oneself has become quite easy. What I'm trying to establish is what would make someone decide that they wanted to answer said question for themselves.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;938528I guess I haven't explained myself well. You've shown how answering the question for oneself has become quite easy. What I'm trying to establish is what would make someone decide that they wanted to answer said question for themselves.

Exactly. Why, and who cares?

If you're playing chess (as in the funny but not relevant comic), it's more like why would you expect or need to research ancient Indonesian stone throwing games that might be a precursor

Quote from: Willie the Duck;938528I guess I haven't explained myself well. You've shown how answering the question for oneself has become quite easy. What I'm trying to establish is what would make someone decide that they wanted to answer said question for themselves.

It simple, individual temperament or opportunity.

Opportunity is where the "culture" of the group comes into play by the virtue of people talking about the history of their hobby. There is no great mystery about this in either RPGs, Wargaming, Marble Collecting, or whatever.

In this forum you got people aware of the history of RPGs and to a lesser extend wargaming. So there is a good chance that a causal gamer browsing the post will learn something about the history of either. More likely RPGs than Wargames.

But if opportunity doesn't exist then it solely based on the temperament. The willingness of the individual to take the the time to ask the question and do the search. Most people don't give a fuck and just play. For those who care, the answers are a click away.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;938528I guess I haven't explained myself well. You've shown how answering the question for oneself has become quite easy. What I'm trying to establish is what would make someone decide that they wanted to answer said question for themselves.

Some people will play Monopoly for 60 years, win or lose randomly and never really delve into how to play the game.
Other people will have a set play for every roll of the die for every location.
Others will ask themselves...why a shoe?..and look it up and find a list of all the retired Monopoly pieces over the years.

Well, that's an argument for why it isn't astounding that there are some who don't know this stuff, along with why there are some who do.

I'm not sure I had a deeper meaning to my question, but I was wondering if there was a specific introspective movement within wargaming folk, in the same way that the OSR movement kinda kindled an interest in early TTRPG history (which caused all these Playing at the World and Designers and Dragons type books to come out).

History of Wargaming

Quote from: Willie the Duck;938545Well, that's an argument for why it isn't astounding that there are some who don't know this stuff, along with why there are some who do.

I'm not sure I had a deeper meaning to my question, but I was wondering if there was a specific introspective movement within wargaming folk, in the same way that the OSR movement kinda kindled an interest in early TTRPG history (which caused all these Playing at the World and Designers and Dragons type books to come out).

I'm not a big wargamer (even though I've done some "real wargaming" ie. some 15mm and Hex and Chit back in the day) but I think for the RPG scene it was more a case of...

• The originals and the second generation hitting their retirement or mid-life crisis years.
• The Newer versions of D&D being in 3e's case, different design methodology mechanically and in 4e's case outright hostility to earlier versions.
• WotC, as part of their forced shift to 4e, making all previous versions unavailable, really drawing their line in the sand.
• The OGL making the old stuff legal to publish again (with some paint).
• The rise of Social Media.
• The death of the hobby's best-known Founder.
• The creation of new school gaming design movements and sites like The Forge that were dismissive, hostile, and most of all, simply incorrect about earlier forms of gaming, bullshit that still persists today like the "Punishment Play" idiocy.

Throw all that together, hit blend, and you get a whole lot of people saying "Wait a minute, I know all this "common wisdom" about the old days are horseshit because that's not what I experienced, so why don't we say what really went on?" and others saying "Umm, these people are starting to die off, the origins of the hobby, without which, a huge chunk of the Billion-dollar gaming industry simply would not exist, are about to fade from living history.  It might be time to start writing shit down."

Wargamers I think are a little different in that it's not a case of being interested in a living history that is soon to be lost, or a playstyle under reactionary attack, but more a general love of history itself and the way that a historical wargame can bring understanding of that history...provided you have proper application of mechanics.  So there is interest in those mechanics, how they evolved, why they were instituted or why they were dropped.  The "Why's" matter.

Quote from: nDervish;938485How much "older" are you talking?  I got into Avalon Hill and SPI hex-and-chit games in the late 70s and very few of those had referees.  I remember refereed play as being an optional rule in a few of them, but it was never presented as the standard method in any of the ones I saw.

Many miniatures wargames assume a referee, even today.  You are right that "board games," as we called them then, do not.

I can't wait to read your book, Gronan. Sounds like it would be interested.

I've always been fascinated with the early days of RPG's and their history.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;938528I guess I haven't explained myself well. You've shown how answering the question for oneself has become quite easy. What I'm trying to establish is what would make someone decide that they wanted to answer said question for themselves.

An interest in their hobby. People who are heavily involved in something should know and love the roots and history of it - it'll make them better at it. For example, in my gym I tell them why they're called "barbells" despite not ringing, how and why iron plates and then bumper plates were invented, when and why drugs came into it, and so on. Someone who just goes to BodyPump occasionally doesn't need to know all that, but someone who comes and lifts seriously with a plan for 1-2hr 3 times a week should. Learning about that history makes you a part of it, and makes it more likely you'll still be doing this thing 10 years from now.

It makes it a more enriching experience to know the roots and history of your hobby or work, and helps you understand some of the things that, on the face of it, are a bit weird. I don't think you need to go to the Talmudic levels of guys like James M, or peruse original Blackmoor manuscripts (ie Arneson's scribbled and disorganised DM notes), but you should know a bit about it all.

All tribal cultures share history by oral story-telling. All family gatherings have the elders tell the youngsters about their own history. And you can't get six guys in a pub and put a few drinks in them without someone, as Springsteen put it, telling boring old stories of glory days. Telling stories is important. It's why we play roleplaying games.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;938565Telling stories is important. It's why we play roleplaying games.

Two minute minor for overly-broad generalizations.

Quote from: estar;938513History of Wargaming

On a more serious note look up books by Tony Bath or Donald Featherstone.

HG Well Little Wars, and Fletcher Pratt's Naval Wargaming are also recommended.

Oddly enough I do not recall Palmers "Comprehensive Guide to Board Wargaming" mentioning referees at all?

Quote from: Omega;938571Oddly enough I do not recall Palmers "Comprehensive Guide to Board Wargaming" mentioning referees at all?

See post 216.