Well, here we go again: another Kickstarter megadungeon (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2056633109/the-grande-temple-of-jing-pathfinder-fantasy-rpgs), this time for Pathfinder.
Dripping with trite hyperbole? Check. Name-checking roleplaying game 'celebrities?' Check. Pandering to the old school? Check. Special snowflake rules AND rewards? Check and check.
:rolleyes:
It's funny, too, because this is a remake of a 2001 d20 modules. I was pretty big on d20 back then (I still probably have close to 250 d20 books after selling off a bunch) and I had never heard of it.
*sigh*
Yeah...
No.
Thought you got a "grande" at Starbucks? Or is he just the kind of guy that pronounces homage to rhyme with fromage?
Quote from: Benoist;613118*sigh*
I know, right?
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;613121Thought you got a "grande" at Starbucks?
Yeah, that's not a transcription typo, I'm sad to say.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;613121Or is he just the kind of guy that pronounces homage to rhyme with fromage?
:)
QuoteCelebrity contributors
Expected something like Lady Gaga or Beyoncé, got overweight dudes in their fourties.
What the?
Spoiler
(Kickstarter is the new d20 bubble, and this little item is a rather good signal of the gold rush)
Isn't Jing that which Taoists call sexual energy?
I would like to see a KS with a bunch of infamous RPG celebrities. Raven McCracken (of Synnibarr fame), that Carcosa guy, the Vampire: Undeath guy, maybe James M (the Grognardia guy), Morrus from ENWorld...
So we got a Kickstarter for a megadungeon. So what? Why the derision and scorn?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;613145Isn't Jing that which Taoists call sexual energy?
Oh God, please let this be true. How funny would it be when the author(s) found out.
Quote from: JeremyR;613153I would like to see a KS with a bunch of infamous RPG celebrities. Raven McCracken (of Synnibarr fame), that Carcosa guy, the Vampire: Undeath guy, maybe James M (the Grognardia guy), Morrus from ENWorld...
Don't forget Ron Edwards! And maybe Zak Smith too.
Quote from: jeff37923;613154So we got a Kickstarter for a megadungeon. So what? Why the derision and scorn?
Because it's for Pathfinder and it irks the Old School to see them younglings who might have never heard of Castle Greyhawk throwing around "ZOMG biggest dungeon evar".
Because it doesn't look particularly original.
Because it sets a $10K goal in excess of other crowdfunding RPG projects that have cranked out good stuff.
Because it name drops Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook and Skip Williams, the father, son and holy ghost of 3e.
Substitute Pathfinder for OSRIC, and the "celebrities" for Frank Mentzer, Tim Kask and Erol Otus, and the reaction might be the opposite.
Quote from: The Butcher;613213Substitute Pathfinder for OSRIC, and the "celebrities" for Frank Mentzer, Tim Kask and Erol Otus, and the reaction might be the opposite.
Yeah, I would roll my eyes in the opposite direction! :D
Quote from: jeff37923;613154So we got a Kickstarter for a megadungeon. So what? Why the derision and scorn?
Because the hype machine is turned to eleven once again (". . . this is the dungeon crawl that rules them ALL." "Players will rush to discover some of the most powerful items ever created." "For the GM, the grande temple represents the ultimate expression in dungeon design.")
Because one of the backer rewards is cheat codes (". . . random dungeon level map - don't tell your GM!").
Because of the "resurrection mechanic" ("And if they die in the search - but amuse Jing in the process - he just might grant them a do-over.").
Because if you pay enough money, you get to help write the thing.
A year from now, half the people complaining about this ad will have bought the product. You know it's true! :p
The first panel kind of sums it up nicely.
(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-jbBQTJT/0/L/i-jbBQTJT-X2.jpg)
That cartoon is the best thing to come out of the Kickstarter boom. I love it.
I see we're continuing the trend of RIDICULOUS kickstarter contribution levels and pdf rewards for outrageous sums of money.
I think the Reaper kickstarter is going to turn out to be the last good one.
Someone in the other thread said something like: You unworthy dogs must PAY for the PRIVILEGE of being part of our Kickstarter.
I think that's the wrong mentality and I will never back a Kickstarter that doesn't even offer the book at the $75 (player) level. Also, there are merchant only packages that are less than that.
What the hell? I can't believe what these companies have turned Kickstarter into. It's almost like it's no longer for amateurs or folks who seriously don't have enough money. This one's softcover goal is $10,000. I hope it fails, and that causes a trend of Kickstarter failures to break the trend.
Quote from: Blackhand;613487I think that's the wrong mentality and I will never back a Kickstarter that doesn't even offer the book at the $75 (player) level.
In principle I am with you but there
is a $75 (GM) level that includes a print copy of the book. The player levels are for merchandise like T-Shirts and baseball caps.
OTOH, that $75 is the lowest level where you could get a 144 page softcover book is still outrageous.
[EDIT: I have to retract the last statement!. I missed the $50 (GM) level that also has the physical book.]
Quote from: Blackhand;613487What the hell? I can't believe what these companies have turned Kickstarter into. It's almost like it's no longer for amateurs or folks who seriously don't have enough money.
There's something really nasty that happens with passionate hobbyists turn into "professional game designers," and what's been happening on Kickstarter really illustrates that.
There's another pathfinder megadungeon with big name authors attached to their Pathfinder online MMORPG Kickstarter (which looks like it will probably fail). The thing is called the Emerald Spire and they have Rich Baker, Frank Mentzer, and (shockingly) Mark Rein-Hagen attached to it.
There was a piece on Tenkar's Tavern about it - this one is set up as sort of a fake stretch goal, on which nothing happens at all unless the MMO gets funded.
Quote from: JeremyR;613153I would like to see a KS with a bunch of infamous RPG celebrities. Raven McCracken (of Synnibarr fame), that Carcosa guy, the Vampire: Undeath guy, maybe James M (the Grognardia guy), Morrus from ENWorld...
Hmm.. I wonder if there's any money in that... "RPG forum celebrity"-endorsement of Kickstarters?
RPGPundit
Quote from: misterguignol;613501There's something really nasty that happens with passionate hobbyists turn into "professional game designers," and what's been happening on Kickstarter really illustrates that.
Just now, groking this? With just a few exceptions I stopped buying new games and Rpgs in volume some years ago. I know what it costs to make a book. Add in a bit a value with content, and $40-50 does not seam unreasonable in the new publishing age for a dead print copy of a decent game. The prices on some of these, are just ridiculous though, especially considering what actual content is inside, and what you get with the Kickstarter.
...and the ones with the audacity to insult you... the worst. They'll never get any of my money!
Quote from: jeff37923;613154So we got a Kickstarter for a megadungeon. So what? Why the derision and scorn?
Did you look at the Kickstarter?
1) If you pay $175 they'll let you write a level. I don't know where you're coming from, but if I'm putting in hard work to create a good level, I want to get paid for my work.
2) At $30 you get a pdf of the 'core levels' of the book. What's that mean? I don't know, and there's nothing on the page that says what the core levels are. The only way to get what seems to be a complete pdf is to buy up to the $50 where you get a copy of the book... a 144 page softcover book for $50.
3) The original dungeon this was based on made such a small splash that I can only find one review on the internet - and that's a partial one from Pyramid.
4) The 'best of all the best' language running through the whole text is overblown the point of ridicule.
5) Finally, the risk they state is that "We believe heartily that a well detailed map and proper book layout is the key to running a great dungeon adventure. As such we will be spending significant time developing the very best layout that we can. It's possible that this process will be more complicated than expected, and potentially delay the project." Really? Other projects run up on the shoals of time management for writing, problems getting things printed properly, problems coordinating various pledge level rewards and so forth. Their only anticipated problem is getting the map to look right?
Basically, it looks like a project by amateurs, and moreover, it sounds like the only parts of it that are written are the bits published ten years ago. I'd say I'd bet money that they don't send out the book by their goal date of August 2013, except that almost no projects manage to send out on time. I'll say instead that nothing will get sent out in 2013, and backers (if it completes) will still be waiting a year from today. (Although It'll be out 'any day now', O'Neill will be saying.)
Quote from: GameDaddy;613515Just now, groking this? With just a few exceptions I stopped buying new games and Rpgs in volume some years ago. I know what it costs to make a book. Add in a bit a value with content, and $40-50 does not seam unreasonable in the new publishing age for a dead print copy of a decent game. The prices on some of these, are just ridiculous though, especially considering what actual content is inside, and what you get with the Kickstarter.
...and the ones with the audacity to insult you... the worst. They'll never get any of my money!
I'm not groking this now, but instead am surprised that people have started to agree with what I've been saying for a while now.
Funny you should mention "the audacity to insult you" as I was just told last week by a retro-clone dude that I "didn't deserve his product." And that's fine by me, I am sure there are other folks making stuff that wouldn't mind my money finding its way to their pockets.
Huh, looks like this industry is taking a page from video games. It all sounds like a glorified pre-release reservation with a suffocating slathering on of hyperbole.
I'd say it's a pity, but I'm sorta not surprised. Also, isn't there enough earnest Kickstarters out there to 'keep up the faith' as it were?
Update: with seventeen days still to go, the Grande Temple of Jing is at 200% of its goal.
The average pledge? $75.00.
I . . . hope it's brilliant and ships on time.
Let's have a rummage around...OK, I got some old maps and shit. And I've got Ken St Andre's email address, might be able to wangle a celeb endorsement...here we come, Darke Krypts of Bazongulu! Early bird supporters get to create the index!
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;622073Early bird supporters get to create the index!
:rotfl:
I know that haters gonna hate, but if you could do better, then why don't you? What is stopping you from doing your own Kickstarter and showing the world your dungeon of awesome?
Quote from: jeff37923;622104I know that haters gonna hate, but if you could do better, then why don't you? What is stopping you from doing your own Kickstarter and showing the world your dungeon of awesome?
'Well, if you don't like the movie, why don't you just produce and direct your own?'
'If that meal was so bad, why don't you just start your own restaurant?'
'Hey, if you don't like the mayor, why don't you just run for office and show everyone how it's done?
Jeff, do I really need to explain why this is a silly argument?
My response to Jeff's question can be found here (http://themetalearth.blogspot.com/2013/01/diy-gaming-manifesto-for-me-but.html?m=1)
Quote from: jeff37923;622104I know that haters gonna hate, but if you could do better, then why don't you? What is stopping you from doing your own Kickstarter and showing the world your dungeon of awesome?
I am opposed to Kickstarter hucksterism in general, and that doesn't get fixed by me joining the rush.
I have published a bunch of adventures in other ways, though: some for free, and some in Fight On! and Knockspell. I suppose the one closest to the megadungeon style (if not size) is the second part of
Khosura: City State of the Four Mysteries in FO #10. The PDF goes for a modest $5. If you want to to buy the city-state itself (#9) and the extra sublevel that was published previously (#1), all of that is going to cost a mere $15 plus printing, and you will also own whatever else three issues worth of Fight On's got to offer. There are no reward tiers and special hologram foil maps, and no drama is involved, but the whole product is playtested.
That's my counterargument.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622143'Well, if you don't like the movie, why don't you just produce and direct your own?'
'If that meal was so bad, why don't you just start your own restaurant?'
'Hey, if you don't like the mayor, why don't you just run for office and show everyone how it's done?
Jeff, do I really need to explain why this is a silly argument?
All of those things require a major investment of capital and a life-consuming commitment to the work. Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.
Scribus and GIMP for layout, Dungeonographer for cartography, the publishing tips over at Chaotic Henchman for layout clues, public domain stuff for art, and OneBookshelf for distribution. Literally every step of that process is completely free.
I'd agree that a product somebody thinks is bad does not immediately require a response in the form of a better example if the badness is to be taken seriously, but the actual technical hurdles to putting together a megadungeon are by no means prohibitive. Any reasonably dedicated gamer can do it. The question is whether they can do it
well, and that brings around the point that making a good megadungeon is very, very hard for reasons that have nothing to do with the technical aspects of getting 30x30 rooms down on paper.
Quote from: SineNomine;622154All of those things require a major investment of capital and a life-consuming commitment to the work. Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.
Scribus and GIMP for layout, Dungeonographer for cartography, the publishing tips over at Chaotic Henchman for layout clues, public domain stuff for art, and OneBookshelf for distribution. Literally every step of that process is completely free.
I'd agree that a product somebody thinks is bad does not immediately require a response in the form of a better example if the badness is to be taken seriously, but the actual technical hurdles to putting together a megadungeon are by no means prohibitive. Any reasonably dedicated gamer can do it. The question is whether they can do it well, and that brings around the point that making a good megadungeon is very, very hard for reasons that have nothing to do with the technical aspects of getting 30x30 rooms down on paper.
Imo, you are one of the few guys that get's it right, and all by yourself you justify the existence of KS. Also there is some great advice in that post , which I will take to heart as I put together the stuff I give away.
Quote from: jeff37923;622104What is stopping you from doing your own Kickstarter and showing the world your dungeon of awesome?
Nothing.
IF I ever do such a thing as a kickstarter, you'll be damn sure the whole thing is already complete or near completion, though. ;)
Quote from: Black Vulmea;613222Because if you pay enough money, you get to help write the thing.
Yeah, that worked out
soooo well with e20. :banghead:
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622143'Well, if you don't like the movie, why don't you just produce and direct your own?'
'If that meal was so bad, why don't you just start your own restaurant?'
'Hey, if you don't like the mayor, why don't you just run for office and show everyone how it's done?
Jeff, do I really need to explain why this is a silly argument?
Yes you do. Why? Because self-publishing an adventure for a tabletop RPG is not nearly as difficult as making a movie, starting a restaurant, or running for mayor. You are just implying that it is more difficult so you don't have to put up or shut up.
Quote from: Gib;622149My response to Jeff's question can be found here (http://themetalearth.blogspot.com/2013/01/diy-gaming-manifesto-for-me-but.html?m=1)
And now I have a new blog to read.
Quote from: Melan;622153I am opposed to Kickstarter hucksterism in general, and that doesn't get fixed by me joining the rush.
Fair enough, and you have actually gotten some of your material out there and published.
Quote from: Benoist;622157Nothing. IF I ever do such a thing as a kickstarter, you'll be damn sure the whole thing is already complete or near completion, though. ;)
That is just obvious sound planning for one of these projects.
Quote from: SineNomine;622154Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.
No, it really doesn't.
This same question was asked in another thread on the Design forum. I don't publish stuff not because I can't, but because I have no inclination to do so. I would not enjoy that process in the slightest.
That doesn't mean I can't look at someone else's project and say, 'Yeah, that looks like crap.'
Quote from: SineNomine;622154Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.
Not just that, no. Ask James M of Dwimmermount fame.
Quote from: SineNomine;622154Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622211No, it really doesn't.
Quote from: Benoist;622214Not just that, no. Ask James M of Dwimmermount fame.
Quote from: SineNomine;622154Any reasonably dedicated gamer can do it. The question is whether they can do it well, and that brings around the point that making a good megadungeon is very, very hard for reasons that have nothing to do with the technical aspects of getting 30x30 rooms down on paper.
Movies, Restaurants, etc... require a certain degree of technical or business acumen that is extremely high compared to DIY dungeons. Even getting a novel published is extremely difficult if you don't go vanity because it's an arcane mix of skill, luck, Triathlon levels of determination, and above all, knowing the right people.
By comparison, making and publishing any type of adventure is extremely simple, free and easy. It's making and publishing a GOOD adventure that's the hard part.
I think that's what Kevin was getting at.
Quote from: CRKrueger;622234I think that's what Kevin was getting at.
Which doesn't in any way change the fact that, 'Oh yeah? Let's see you do it better!' is a fucking stupid response to someone saying they don't like something.
Quote from: SineNomine;622154Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.
Some of the "dungeons" I've seen published were inspiring pieces of art, but for the most part I'd agree with this, they are dated cul de sacs - if one uses miniatures, good for gorgeous set piece photos which are useful for about five minutes of actual play. It would take a pretty phenomenal dungeon to get me to pay for it. The last of which was an AD&D tour of hell, if I recall correctly, although the name escapes me for the minute. Marvellous and uniquely suited to the dungeon experience, unlike 99% of real adventures.
Quote from: SineNomine;622154All of those things require a major investment of capital and a life-consuming commitment to the work. Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.
LOL, and a lot more manhours than you seem to think.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622237Which doesn't in any way change the fact that, 'Oh yeah? Let's see you do it better!' is a fucking stupid response to someone saying they don't like something.
Well, true. :D You don't have to be Mozart to recognize the difference between him and Insane Clown Posse.
But so is comparing making a megadungeon to actually doing something hard, like running for public office.
Quote from: Gib;622250But so is comparing making a megadungeon to actually doing something hard, like running for public office.
One of the rare occasions when gib isn't talking bollocks. Making a megadungeon is easy unless you want to get seriously creative, which most of the graph paper jockeys don't.
Quote from: The Traveller;622259One of the rare occasions when gib isn't talking bollocks. Making a megadungeon is easy unless you want to get seriously creative, which most of the graph paper jockeys don't.
That's just not true. Sure, if you just roll room content randomly, write stream of consciousness whatever comes to mind and all, you can get that together relatively easily (though you still have to type all this shit, which requires some stamina some people just don't have, especially when the stuff is boring). I can open a shit restaurant that goes belly up in two weeks relatively easily too. But claiming that writing a mega-dungeon module just takes "a pulse" is a load of bullshit. It takes time, it takes passion (even if what you're passionate about is shit), it takes dedication, work, discipline, etc etc.
People who are saying these kinds of things are either not realizing what they are actually talking about, or are so jaded that they think, like Kevin, that since they write at the kilometer and come up with shit like breathing, then everyone else should feel it's that easy as well. It's not.
Quote from: TristramEvans;622246LOL, and a lot more manhours than you seem to think.
I could publish one by morning. I just go to one of the random-dungeon-level websites, hit "Generate", copy-paste it into an InDesign document for however many pages I have patience to endure, slap some half-assed cover on it, and upload it for $9.99. It would be an absolutely horrible megadungeon, but hey, it's 578 rooms, 12 levels, and 30 pages of single-line room descriptions with a few random adjectives and nouns sprinked in. I'm sure it would be sufficient to fit somebody's definition of a megadungeon.
Publishing to an OSR standard is do-it-in-your-sleep simple. The audience doesn't demand fancy layouts or color interiors or pretty much anything more than two-column functionality. For maps we have abundant freeware resources and for distribution we have the exact same platform that WotC itself is using these days. Anyone capable of giving a damn is capable of producing a product. It's just that far fewer are capable of producing a good product.
If someone asks me "Why don't you do something better, then?" my own answers are either "Because I don't care enough to try", or "Because I have no better ideas and was hoping that this author did". You don't need a parachute to notice that somebody's falling.
Quote from: SineNomine;622261I could publish one by morning. I just go to one of the random-dungeon-level websites, hit "Generate", copy-paste it into an InDesign document for however many pages I have patience to endure, slap some half-assed cover on it, and upload it for $9.99.
I could come up with a catering business selling canned dog food by morning. It's easy. Doesn't mean it's going to fly or be any good. Your comparison is completely stupid, Kevin.
Quote from: The Traveller;622259One of the rare occasions when gib isn't talking bollocks.
You are the ultimate warrior.
Quote from: Benoist;622264I could come up with a catering business selling canned dog food by morning. It's easy. Doesn't mean it's going to fly or be any good. Your comparison is completely stupid, Kevin.
I brought up the comparison because I don't like the implication that publishing RPG supplements is remotely difficult from a technical aspect. I simply cannot become a brain surgeon tomorrow, or start a bank, or hire out as a Mandarin translator. I lack the capital, intellectual or otherwise, to do these things. A cursory glance through OBS' offerings will reveal that there is no such capital requirement for getting an RPG product into print.
If you want to rebuff demands that you make something better before you can criticize a product, then go ahead and rebuff. There are plenty of good reasons why that's not a justifiable demand. But don't imply that the process is on par for difficulty with dealing with city building codes, taking out a small business loan, or managing waitstaff.
Quote from: SineNomine;622271I brought up the comparison because I don't like the implication that publishing RPG supplements is remotely difficult from a technical aspect. I simply cannot become a brain surgeon tomorrow, or start a bank, or hire out as a Mandarin translator.
Likewise, random non-gamer couldn't bring together a role playing game, module or supplement without knowing what these games are in the first place, or do it with any competence whatsoever (like not killing people for a surgeon) without having the slightest idea what they are doing, as the legions of people who DID play and run games for decades and think they know what they are doing to FAIL with their products attest in spades.
You are really wrong on this. You're suffering from a myopia inherited from your specific standpoint as an experienced gamer, competent designer and publisher.
Quote from: Benoist;622273You are really wrong on this. You're suffering from a myopia inherited from your specific standpoint as an experienced gamer, competent designer and publisher.
It's possible, but I'm just not convinced. It's just not a complex or technically demanding physical process to put out OSR-style published products. Sure, creatively it's the devil to do something fresh and useful, but Sturgeon's Law is going to be applicable at any scale. I've just put a great deal of effort towards trying to convince other people to give the process a try, and I'm not a fan of implications that it's some scary or unique-talent-required thing if you want to make up something nice-looking to pass around the net. Hell, the free Spears of the Dawn resource pack I'm putting up next week has ten pages of InDesign document templates for other designers to steal and the whole first chapter as a worked example of their use. Though now that you point it out, it might be worth my time to make up a few more templates to put in there.
This is the golden age of sharing your stuff with the world at large, and I want people to feel confident that the only things they really need are a good idea and a hobbyist's level of dedication.
Quote from: SineNomine;622275This is the golden age of sharing your stuff with the world at large, and I want people to feel confident that the only things they really need are a good idea and a hobbyist's level of dedication.
That's already way more than just "a pulse". Yes, you can get how-tos and advice and support and the community like never before. If you have a solid idea, a passion for what you do, and you are willing to put in the writing and whatever else man hour to bring your baby to other people's game tables, you certainly can. But the idea that just about anybody can do it without effort, dedication, discipline and the like is just wrong.
Fuck this argument, i want to see those templates.
Quote from: Gib;622280Fuck this argument, i want to see those templates.
What kind of templates?
Quote from: SineNomine;622275Hell, the free Spears of the Dawn resource pack I'm putting up next week has ten pages of InDesign document templates for other designers to steal and the whole first chapter as a worked example of their use. Though now that you point it out, it might be worth my time to make up a few more templates to put in there.
......
Quote from: Gib;622289......
Oh okay, those templates. Nevermind. I thought you wanted something else.
Quote from: Gib;622250But so is comparing making a megadungeon to actually doing something hard, like running for public office.
And if I'd done that, I'd agree.
Quote from: Gib;622280Fuck this argument, i want to see those templates.
Should be up in about a week, if the SotD print proofs check out. Honestly, I think I'm going to need that time just to write a set of warnings about how not to use the things. "Please don't load this template with a 90% identical rehash of Moldvay Basic and six pages of your house rules. Please don't engage in an obsessive attempt to replicate TSR's trade dress down to the microscopic level. Please don't use these Illustrator symbols to perfectly replicate B1 except with ascending armor class. Please put something new in here."
Of course, to the extent that these templates really are widely useful these warnings will be completely ignored. Still, I'm confident that the more stuff that's out there, the more good stuff will be among it. I just wish I had the time to learn how to use Scribus- these templates aren't useful to anyone without InDesign CS6, and that's rather costly software.
Quote from: Benoist;622260That's just not true. Sure, if you just roll room content randomly, write stream of consciousness whatever comes to mind and all, you can get that together relatively easily (though you still have to type all this shit, which requires some stamina some people just don't have, especially when the stuff is boring).
Why would it even be in the game if it's boring? Filler is only needed if you're doing it for money and aren't really enjoying your work.
The concept of a dungeon in general is a juvenile and immature expression of the hobby anyway. Even leaving aside the lack of ventilation, accumulation of poisonous gases, the physics-defying subterranean chambers with only a few feet of wall between one room and the next, the questions of how exactly major ecologies have not only survived but flourished in an environment which is home to pretty much nothing in the real world, the sacks of precious metals and mystical items scattered hither and yon, the way a lit torch doesn't suffocate the group within an hour or so, the way that getting lost is never an issue, and so on.
Let's leave all that aside and realise that computers do a better job of the dungeon experience and have for quite some time. To a great extent the first person shooter scene started out mimicking dungeons, with Wolfenstein and Doom, then perfected the art with networking and WoW. Even in the media, underground settings are rarely more than something you have to go through to reach the actual adventure, or a couple of chambers where the final battle happens.
As such the closed-circuit node by node model is perfectly fine in small doses, but dungeons in general are an anachronism.
Quote from: Gib;622267You are the ultimate warrior.
And you are just so edgy.
Quote from: The Traveller;622337The concept of a dungeon in general is a juvenile and immature expression of the hobby anyway. Even leaving aside the lack of ventilation, accumulation of poisonous gases.......dungeons in general are an anachronism.
Wait, so it's 1997 again?
Quote from: The Traveller;6223377/10
7/10
Quote from: The Traveller;622337Why would it even be in the game if it's boring? Filler is only needed if you're doing it for money and aren't really enjoying your work.
That actually got brought up in the whole Dwimmermount debate (which is actually how I found this place in the first place). Does a 10 level, 500 room Megadungeon have to be exciting every single room? Apparently the answer today is yes, even among old schoolers, since a room with rats and copper pieces is the worst thing ever.
But personally I would disagree. Exciting things are more exciting when they don't happen as often.
Like a guitar solo in a rock song. Would the song be better if the whole thing was a guitar solo? No.
Quote from: JeremyR;622346That actually got brought up in the whole Dwimmermount debate (which is actually how I found this place in the first place). Does a 10 level, 500 room Megadungeon have to be exciting every single room? Apparently the answer today is yes, even among old schoolers, since a room with rats and copper pieces is the worst thing ever.
But personally I would disagree. Exciting things are more exciting when they don't happen as often.
Like a guitar solo in a rock song. Would the song be better if the whole thing was a guitar solo? No.
A Megadungeon is like a 50 minute version of The Trogs Wild Thing.
I'd rather a dungeon with 20 rooms all awesome than a tedious 500 room epic like Dwimmermount promises to be.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622237Which doesn't in any way change the fact that, 'Oh yeah? Let's see you do it better!' is a fucking stupid response to someone saying they don't like something.
If you can't put up, then shut up. Sorry to call you on your crap there.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622311And if I'd done that, I'd agree.
Except that you did. Otherwise, why did you make the statements about restaurants, movies, and public office unless you were making a comparison?
Here's the deal. Self-publishing is easy right now. There are even games out there that make it even easier to get your own stuff out there that uses that particular game system. So if all you have is scorn and derision for someone who actually has the testicular capacity to go out and do just that, then fuck you for being a wannabee.
The Grande Temple of Jing may very well be crap, but if all you are doing is shouting from the sidelines without actually trying yourself to publish, then you are nothing but an armchair quarterback.
I wasn't aware that publishing something yourself was a requirement for criticism. If that's the case, a lot of critics in a lot of different fields are going to be out of a job. Not to mention they'll probably have to turn the internet off, because all anyone ever does is bitch about media they don't like.
"You are forbidden to voice complaints about this thing because you could always do it yourself" is not a sound or even sensible argument.
Besides, I get the feeling people are irritated more about the stupid contribution levels, lame extras, perpetual delays and other baggage associated with Kickstarter rather than the actual content. If I throw in $50 and the project runs a year past schedule, do I also have to self-publish before I can voice my concerns about that? Rubbish.
Quote from: jeff37923;622359Otherwise, why did you make the statements about restaurants, movies, and public office unless you were making a comparison?
I wasn't comparing publishing a gaming book to running a restaurant
et al.. That was SinNomine's interpretation, and he was wrong. I was pointing out how utterly juvenile, 'Oh yeah, then you do it better if you can!' is as a response.
Really, Jeff, do you honestly believe that unless you do something first, you cannot possibly criticise someone else?
Quote from: The Traveller;622337. . . [D]ungeons in general are an anachronism.
I take back what I said about you having interesting things to say about gaming.
Quote from: The Traveller;622337Why would it even be in the game if it's boring? Filler is only needed if you're doing it for money and aren't really enjoying your work.
The concept of a dungeon in general is a juvenile and immature expression of the hobby anyway. Even leaving aside the lack of ventilation, accumulation of poisonous gases, the physics-defying subterranean chambers with only a few feet of wall between one room and the next, the questions of how exactly major ecologies have not only survived but flourished in an environment which is home to pretty much nothing in the real world, the sacks of precious metals and mystical items scattered hither and yon, the way a lit torch doesn't suffocate the group within an hour or so, the way that getting lost is never an issue, and so on.
Let's leave all that aside and realise that computers do a better job of the dungeon experience and have for quite some time. To a great extent the first person shooter scene started out mimicking dungeons, with Wolfenstein and Doom, then perfected the art with networking and WoW. Even in the media, underground settings are rarely more than something you have to go through to reach the actual adventure, or a couple of chambers where the final battle happens.
As such the closed-circuit node by node model is perfectly fine in small doses, but dungeons in general are an anachronism.
And you are just so edgy.
Zero self awareness comedy gold.
Quote from: Melan;6223437/10
:hatsoff:
Quote from: Gib;622373Zero self awareness comedy gold.
You're like a random word generator.
Quote from: The Traveller;622374:hatsoff:
You're like a random word generator.
No soap radio.
Quote from: The Traveller;622337Why would it even be in the game if it's boring? Filler is only needed if you're doing it for money and aren't really enjoying your work.
The concept of a dungeon in general is a juvenile and immature expression of the hobby anyway. Even leaving aside the lack of ventilation, accumulation of poisonous gases, the physics-defying subterranean chambers with only a few feet of wall between one room and the next, the questions of how exactly major ecologies have not only survived but flourished in an environment which is home to pretty much nothing in the real world, the sacks of precious metals and mystical items scattered hither and yon, the way a lit torch doesn't suffocate the group within an hour or so, the way that getting lost is never an issue, and so on.
Let's leave all that aside and realise that computers do a better job of the dungeon experience and have for quite some time. To a great extent the first person shooter scene started out mimicking dungeons, with Wolfenstein and Doom, then perfected the art with networking and WoW. Even in the media, underground settings are rarely more than something you have to go through to reach the actual adventure, or a couple of chambers where the final battle happens.
As such the closed-circuit node by node model is perfectly fine in small doses, but dungeons in general are an anachronism.
And you are just so edgy.
Good grief, you're madly in love with the "sound of your own voice." Sometime I think the only difference between your posts and jibbajabba's is grammar and spelling.
Oh, totally. I know I'm immensely worried about the veracity of dangerous underground gases and geology and ready oxygen supply when I'm playing a halfling with a magic dagger and cloak of invisibility. Dungeons suck.
All load-bearing structures and ventilation systems MUST be explicitly described or you are juvenile...
I don't always agree with him but jibba is a nice guy. (And yeah, he could edit his posts a little better.)
Quote from: Planet Algol;622396All load-bearing structures and ventilation systems MUST be explicitly described or you are juvenile...
That was actually useful to me, though. Had never thought about why walls would realistically need to be thicker--though they often are already in many published dungeons.
As for ventilation: Lords of Quarmall. But in D&D, that ship sailed long ago. If you go the Quarmall route in one dungeon, you'll have to do it (not exactly it, but fussing over an unnecessary formality) every time.
I haven't seen details for electrical conduits, etc. for rpg spaceship deckplans.
Monster statblocks don't list the number of chromosome pairs.
Equipment list generally don't include dental floss or burins.
Juvenile or expedient?
And there's many ways of installing concealed load-bearing structures other that multi-foot thick walls.
I don't know...to me, the dungeon was always a bit like going outside the normal realm of the earth. Things aren't quite the same down there--the laws of the world have been warped and twisted, and real-world physics need not apply.
From the Ancient Egyptians and Sumerians to the myth of Orpheus to the Celtic Otherworld below the Sidhe Mounds, even as late as Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth, heading into the earth has always marked a departure from the real world, something strange and outside the norm. It's still something that we identify with today--any state or national park with a cave will have at least a few "spooky" legends concerning it.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;622397I don't always agree with him but jibba is a nice guy. (And yeah, he could edit his posts a little better.)
I don't think jibba is a bad guy, but the combination of his
funky opinions and his signal-to-noise ratio has rendered him irrelevant IMO.
Quote from: Zachary The First;622403I don't know...to me, the dungeon was always a bit like going outside the normal realm of the earth. Things aren't quite the same down there--the laws of the world have been warped and twisted, and real-world physics need not apply.
That too.
Dreamtime isn't "realistic" either.
Quote from: The Traveller;622337The concept of a dungeon in general is a juvenile and immature expression of the hobby anyway.
For fuck's sakes. Not that anti-dungeon PMS canard again. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Zachary The First;622403I don't know...to me, the dungeon was always a bit like going outside the normal realm of the earth. Things aren't quite the same down there--the laws of the world have been warped and twisted, and real-world physics need not apply.
Give this man a beer!
Quote from: Zachary The First;622403I don't know...to me, the dungeon was always a bit like going outside the normal realm of the earth. Things aren't quite the same down there--the laws of the world have been warped and twisted, and real-world physics need not apply.
Were this true, in a specific setting, I'd like a cosmological background that explained it.
To be clear, I think it'd be an interesting twist on the standard RPG fantasy world, and I'd like to see what caused the otherworldly labyrinths and what other effects it had on the setting.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;622409Were this true, in a specific setting, I'd like a cosmological background that explained it.
To be clear, I think it'd be an interesting twist on the standard RPG fantasy world, and I'd like to see what caused the otherworldly labyrinths and what other effects it had on the setting.
There was an old Palladium Fantasy adventure (the Place of Magic?) in one of the books that actually had the characters descend into subterranean chambers, only to discover the sleeping form of an Old One hidden well below the earth. I suppose the corrupting influence of imprisoned Titans, Old Ones, evil gods, etc., could be a reason for it, but there are many ways you could go with it.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622371Really, Jeff, do you honestly believe that unless you do something first, you cannot possibly criticise someone else?
No, I agree with you about that.
However, considering the low entry bar of publishing in this hobby, I'm wondering why those same critics don't try it themselves to see if they can do better. It is easy to shit all over someone else's work, but to create your own requires effort.
Quote from: jeff37923;622422However, considering the low entry bar of publishing in this hobby, I'm wondering why those same critics don't try it themselves to see if they can do better.
And that's a fair question.
Quote from: jeff37923;622422No, I agree with you about that.
However, considering the low entry bar of publishing in this hobby, I'm wondering why those same critics don't try it themselves to see if they can do better. It is easy to shit all over someone else's work, but to create your own requires effort.
The fields of criticism are parasitical to anything they focus on. Art critics, film critics, book critics? These are people who can't make art of their own trying to claim that their opinions have some sort of value in and of itself. Not that RPgs are art...they're more immediate than that. art is a product, separate from its audience. RPGs are the act of creating as a game, enjoyment in the production without any concern for the finished product. Hence the ultimate failure of any attempts to critique it or any theorywank developed around it.
OTOH< Anything that does enter the public realm is free game for criticism, which means while RPGs themselves are impossible to critique, gamebooks themselves are. and thats the second reason the internet exists (after porn).
Quote from: Fiasco;622352A Megadungeon is like a 50 minute version of The Trogs Wild Thing.
I'd rather a dungeon with 20 rooms all awesome than a tedious 500 room epic like Dwimmermount promises to be.
It also makes more sense to me, based on how many rooms there actually are in the pyramids, and the fact "the whole damn thing is a deathtrap, Bundy!"
20 rooms of death are easier to stomach, than 500 rooms of "lots o'Death in a couple of rooms, random monsters and traps sprinkled about, and empty rooms".
I've also never favored them, because I found that most GM's run Mega-Dungeons to take advantage of player weaknesses, rather than character weaknesses. Players will get careless and bored, and want to hurry through to the interesting parts; characters will be alert and looking for danger around every damn corner. I've had too many DM's "pixel-bitch" players on MegaDungeons.
EDIT:
Quote from: jeff37923;622422However, considering the low entry bar of publishing in this hobby, I'm wondering why those same critics don't try it themselves to see if they can do better.
I am trying, but my progress can only be described as "glacial"...
(I also need to update a hell of a lot more)
Quote from: Benoist;622407For fuck's sakes. Not that anti-dungeon PMS canard again. :rolleyes:
Give this man a beer!
:popcorn:
Quote from: Novastar;622432EDIT:
I am trying, but my progress can only be described as "glacial"...
(I also need to update a hell of a lot more)
As is mine.
Yes, I'm copping to working on a published adventure. Actually, working is too polite of a term. I'm
fumbling my way to finishing a published adventure.
Quote from: jeff37923;622359The Grande Temple of Jing may very well be crap, but if all you are doing is shouting from the sidelines without actually trying yourself to publish, then you are nothing but an armchair quarterback.
Here's the opinion of somebody who's not on the sidelines per your definition.
a. How do you pull together a coherent product from a grab-bag of RPG designers, who can't be getting much cash for this project given the budget ?
b. They're making the cardinal error of Kickstarters by not having something written in advance
c. That's a lot of hype for a product that doesn't exist even in many of the designers' heads yet
Over a year in, and the Grande Temple now has a new lead developer and editor (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2056633109/the-grande-temple-of-jing-pathfinder-fantasy-rpgs/posts), since the guy who was going to do it got a real job.
The bullshitstorm that rules them ALL!
Quote from: Black Vulmea;746127Over a year in, and the Grande Temple now has a new lead developer and editor (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2056633109/the-grande-temple-of-jing-pathfinder-fantasy-rpgs/posts), since the guy who was going to do it got a real job.
The bullshitstorm that rules them ALL!
Nice bump!
Wowee they reaped 43k from the suckers. This is Dwimmermount-esque!
Quote from: Fiasco;746128This is Dwimmermount-esque!
The guy's clearly behind the eight ball, but he didn't crawl into a hole and cut off all contact with the rest of the world. It's an ambitious project, and if the updates are to be believed, it's [strike]moving[/strike] limping painfully along, so he's already light-years ahead of that other fucking poseur.
Plus they aren't even a year late yet, whilst Dwimmermount is hobbling towards the finish line (being spurred on by the, what, third or fourth guy to take on a lead writing role on the project?) an entire two years after the original estimated delivery date.
A few months late delivery is nothing in Kickstarter terms; at this point it's practically expected.
Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;613121Thought you got a "grande" at Starbucks? Or is he just the kind of guy that pronounces homage to rhyme with fromage?
How else would you pronounce it?
Quote from: Black Vulmea;622068Update: with seventeen days still to go, the Grande Temple of Jing is at 200% of its goal.
The average pledge? $75.00.
I . . . hope it's brilliant and ships on time.
You missed the total loony bin circus of the HeroQuset 25th anniversary KS/Verkami/Lanzanos project that despite not ever showing the rules and not even showing the board till near the end, still made hundreds of thousands from backers. For a game made without permission from the original designer and blocked on KS by the Glorantia folk who finally got back their Hero Quest title.
Or Doom that came to Atlantic city where someone pledged I think 3k$. And that one crashed epically.
These things are getting progressively hit and miss as the amatures are getting edged out by ever increasingly professional looking set ups. Or used by existing companies. Steve Jackson and the Ogre KS being a prime example.
Quote from: Old Geezer;746228How else would you pronounce it?
Well if I was at Starbucks I might pronounce it "grind" or "ground"? :cool:
Quote from: thedungeondelver;613273The first panel kind of sums it up nicely.
(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-jbBQTJT/0/L/i-jbBQTJT-X2.jpg)
Man, I just choked with my breakfast by how hard I laughed.:D
So this is from the March 17th update for this Kickstarter:
"I'm pleased to announce that Christina Stiles will be taking over as lead developer AND lead editor on March 1. Christina has recently decided to make the move to full time developer, and she is going to give a TON of her time to Jing."
I've seen her name affiliated with at least two other Kickstarters, one of which I believe is late (guide to lycanthropes) and the other one is what I recall as a forthcoming relaunch of a previous failed Kickstarter (witches and warlocks for Pathfinder).
I don't know anything about her other than this, so maybe she can handle it, but it wouldn't make me more confident about Jing.
Edit: here are those links:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/962794554/bite-me-the-gaming-guide-to-lycanthropes
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/962794554/strange-brew-the-ultimate-witch-and-warlock
Quote from: Mark Plemmons;746383So this is from the March 17th update for this Kickstarter:
"I'm pleased to announce that Christina Stiles will be taking over as lead developer AND lead editor on March 1. Christina has recently decided to make the move to full time developer, and she is going to give a TON of her time to Jing."
I've seen her name affiliated with at least two other Kickstarters, one of which I believe is late (guide to lycanthropes) and the other one is what I recall as a forthcoming relaunch of a previous failed Kickstarter (witches and warlocks for Pathfinder).
I don't know anything about her other than this, so maybe she can handle it, but it wouldn't make me more confident about Jing.
Edit: here are those links:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/962794554/bite-me-the-gaming-guide-to-lycanthropes
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/962794554/strange-brew-the-ultimate-witch-and-warlock
She's been a freelancer for a long time, did a number of d20 books. One of those people who might not produce anything great, but will produce on schedule...
Quote from: JeremyR;746469One of those people who might not produce anything great, but will produce on schedule...
There are several KS for which, at this point, that would be literally the best one could dream to hope for.
Uh-oh . . . the last update was over three months ago. Will the Grande Temple turn out to be all foam and no latte?
:popcorn:
Quote from: Black Vulmea;779818Uh-oh . . . the last update was over three months ago. Will the Grande Temple turn out to be all foam and no latte?
:popcorn:
"All foam and no latte" is a great phrase for Kickstarters.
That said, it looks like the guy running the ks posted a comment three days ago promising an update soon - with GenCon happening, though, I wouldn't be surprised if 'soon' ended up being 'around the 20th'.
Pass some popcorn over, though.
Quote from: The Butcher;613213Substitute Pathfinder for OSRIC, and the "celebrities" for Frank Mentzer, Tim Kask and Erol Otus, and the reaction might be the opposite.
Absolutely. Do we see this vitriol hurled at kickstarters by Frog God Games? They certainly use over-the-top hyperbole and gimmicky pledge rewards.
Quote from: misterguignol;613501There's something really nasty that happens with passionate hobbyists turn into "professional game designers," and what's been happening on Kickstarter really illustrates that.
You mean like Necromancer/Frog God Games? And Goodman Games? Yeah, those guys sure take a beating around here for commercializing a hobby.
Classic OSR hypocrisy.
Quote from: Haffrung;779915Do we see this vitriol hurled at kickstarters by Frog God Games? They certainly use over-the-top hyperbole and gimmicky pledge rewards.
I hurled the same "vitriol" at Autarch for its breathless Kickstarter hype for Dwimmermount, long before Dwimmermount turned into a byword for failure.
if I paid the any attention at all to Frog God's Kickstarters, I'm sure I'd mock them, too.
So don't give me your "OSR hypocrisy" bullshit.
Quote from: Haffrung;779915Absolutely. Do we see this vitriol hurled at kickstarters by Frog God Games?
Any Kickstarter whose reach appears to exceed it's grasp is going to be mocked, no matter who makes it. Frog God, at the least, delivers on their projects, so why should we mock them? Frog God's products aren't generally to my taste (although I did go in on the pdf of Rattan Athuk), but by now I know that if I put down my money I will receive a book.
Quote from: jcfiala;779925Any Kickstarter whose reach appears to exceed it's grasp is going to be mocked, no matter who makes it. Frog God, at the least, delivers on their projects, so why should we mock them? Frog God's products aren't generally to my taste (although I did go in on the pdf of Rattan Athuk), but by now I know that if I put down my money I will receive a book.
Pretty much. You may not like the product of a given kickstarter but the folks running it shouldn't be mocked if they actually deliver.
Quote from: jcfiala;779925Any Kickstarter whose reach appears to exceed it's grasp is going to be mocked, no matter who makes it. Frog God, at the least, delivers on their projects, so why should we mock them? Frog God's products aren't generally to my taste (although I did go in on the pdf of Rattan Athuk), but by now I know that if I put down my money I will receive a book.
The mocking of this kickstarter here started long before it became apparent they may not be able to deliver.
Kickstarters by Paizo/3E/modern designers = contemptible money-grab.
Kickstarters by old-school designers = exciting independent project.
Quote from: JeremyR;613153I would like to see a KS with a bunch of infamous RPG celebrities. Raven McCracken (of Synnibarr fame), that Carcosa guy, the Vampire: Undeath guy, maybe James M (the Grognardia guy), Morrus from ENWorld...
Add in Slade Henson from the old TSR days and it's a deal.
Lord Hobie
Quote from: Haffrung;779992Kickstarters by Paizo/3E/modern designers = contemptible money-grab.
Kickstarters by old-school designers = exciting independent project.
That's just nothing but bullshit.
This thread started as a mean spirited poke in the eyeball for someone's project, for no obvious reason. I don't think you can distill that into any sort of axiomatic principle of kickstarter critiques. And the OP obviously has a right to offer impromptu reviews of whatever he or she wants. And, fortunately, on this web site there are no jack booted nazi's to police everyone's thoughts and attitudes. But, by the same turn, the OP is acting like a colossal prick and shouldn't be surprised to have people say so. How's that for a fair resolution?
Quote from: Larsdangly;780004How's that for a fair resolution?
Speaking as the original poster, fuck you.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;780015Speaking as the original poster, fuck you.
You forgot to roll on the reaction table...
Quote from: Black Vulmea;780015Speaking as the original poster, fuck you.
Right back at you, with knobs on it. Ass hat.
Anything by Frog God deserves to be mocked because for all their Heavy Metal/OSR/Appendix N vibe, they made themselves a boutique publisher at Acaeum prices. More power to 'em for finding the OSR whales and squeezing them dry, but own that shit and quit the "games to the people" crap.
Quote from: CRKrueger;780139Anything by Frog God deserves to be mocked because for all their Heavy Metal/OSR/Appendix N vibe, they made themselves a boutique publisher at Acaeum prices. More power to 'em for finding the OSR whales and squeezing them dry, but own that shit and quit the "games to the people" crap.
"First Edition Feel, Fifteen Edition Prices!"
But the first part of the motto is largely BS. They write most of their recent products for Pathfinder/3.x, then convert backwards.
Which results in some very bizarre things, especially for NPCs
Quote from: Sommerjon;780071You forgot to roll on the reaction table...
:rotfl:
Quote from: CRKrueger;780139Anything by Frog God deserves to be mocked because for all their Heavy Metal/OSR/Appendix N vibe, they made themselves a boutique publisher at Acaeum prices.
So people who are into old-school D&D, heavy metal, and Fritz Leiber can't afford high-end RPG books? News to me. I know a couple lawyers and a pharmaceutical researcher who are as old-school metal D&D as you get. They have plenty of money for their hobbies.
Not all long-time D&D players are wheezing obese men with tobacco-yellowed fingers living in shabby apartments.
Quote from: CRKrueger;780139More power to 'em for finding the OSR whales and squeezing them dry, but own that shit and quit the "games to the people" crap.
"Games to the people?" Where do they say that in their promotional copy?
If people who can afford the dizzying sum of $100 for their premium hobby materials are "whales" of the D&D community, this really is a hobby for fucked-up misfits.
Quote from: CRKrueger;780139Anything by Frog God deserves to be mocked because for all their Heavy Metal/OSR/Appendix N vibe, they made themselves a boutique publisher at Acaeum prices. More power to 'em for finding the OSR whales and squeezing them dry, but own that shit and quit the "games to the people" crap.
Isn't this Goodman Games'/DCC's schtick too?
Quote from: Haffrung;780177So people who are into old-school D&D, heavy metal, and Fritz Leiber can't afford high-end RPG books? News to me. I know a couple lawyers and a pharmaceutical researcher who are as old-school metal D&D as you get. They have plenty of money for their hobbies.
"Being able to afford" is not the same as "willing to dish out" for expensive stuff.
I
can afford $100 adventure modules in the same sense that I can afford a $1000 bottle of wine. And I won't for the same reason: I think no adventure module can possibly be worth $100, and no bottle of wine can possibly merit $1000 a bottle.
It's not so much about income as it is about priorities. I dare say even most "wheezing obese men with tobacco-yellowed fingers living in shabby apartments" can squeeze $100 if they
really want that adventure module. Probably not on a monthly basis, though.
Quote from: The Butcher;780179Isn't this Goodman Games'/DCC's schtick too?
DCC adventures are ten dollars each. Frog God does big ol' hardbacks. I don't think it's the same thing.
To my eye, all Kickstarters of dubiousness get snarked.
Quote from: VectorSigma;780182DCC adventures are ten dollars each. Frog God does big ol' hardbacks. I don't think it's the same thing.
Fair enough. I was thinking of DCC core.
Quote from: The Butcher;780184Fair enough. I was thinking of DCC core.
The DCC core rulebook feels spendy to me, but I'm a cheapass; it isn't any spendier than some of the other hardbacks out there. 5e PHB?
Quote from: danbuter;613255A year from now, half the people complaining about this ad will have bought the product. You know it's true! :p
Or making fun of how late it is?
[Edit - and I posted that before I knew I was reading an old thread, and that it's late! :) ]
Quote from: Larsdangly;780004This thread started as a mean spirited poke in the eyeball for someone's project, for no obvious reason.
I dunno about that. Seemed to me like Black V had plenty of reasoning behind his opinion. To wit...
Quote from: Black Vulmea;613222Because the hype machine is turned to eleven once again (". . . this is the dungeon crawl that rules them ALL." "Players will rush to discover some of the most powerful items ever created." "For the GM, the grande temple represents the ultimate expression in dungeon design.")
Because one of the backer rewards is cheat codes (". . . random dungeon level map - don't tell your GM!").
Because of the "resurrection mechanic" ("And if they die in the search - but amuse Jing in the process - he just might grant them a do-over.").
Because if you pay enough money, you get to help write the thing.
Those are reasons. You might not agree with them, but that's a matter of subjective taste. But he had reasons, and I think he made them pretty darn obvious. In fact, the idea that BV would hide his opinion and make his thoughts not-obvious kinda flies in the face of who BV is, at least online. Shy, he is not.
Quote from: The Butcher;780179Isn't this Goodman Games'/DCC's schtick too?
"Being able to afford" is not the same as "willing to dish out" for expensive stuff.
I can afford $100 adventure modules in the same sense that I can afford a $1000 bottle of wine. And I won't for the same reason: I think no adventure module can possibly be worth $100, and no bottle of wine can possibly merit $1000 a bottle.
It's not so much about income as it is about priorities. I dare say even most "wheezing obese men with tobacco-yellowed fingers living in shabby apartments" can squeeze $100 if they really want that adventure module. Probably not on a monthly basis, though.
Goodman stuff is very cheap IME, probably its main attraction. Necromancer was much more expensive but better quality control. Frog God won't even put their stuff in distribution so I don't get it - Labyrinth Lord is available in most FLGSes so I don't know why most OSR stuff is only POD.
Quote from: S'mon;780208Labyrinth Lord is available in most FLGSes so I don't know why most OSR stuff is only POD.
To reduce up-front cost and take care of distribution. I would never have published ASE if I had to spend a couple of grand to print books and then try to get distributors to carry it, so it might end up in stores, where it would be ignored because it's a niche-within-a-niche.
Quote from: The Butcher;780179"Being able to afford" is not the same as "willing to dish out" for expensive stuff.
I can afford $100 adventure modules in the same sense that I can afford a $1000 bottle of wine. And I won't for the same reason: I think no adventure module can possibly be worth $100, and no bottle of wine can possibly merit $1000 a bottle.
The subject of spending and value is an interesting one. If Frog God released Rappan Athuk as six $25 books, most gamers wouldn't bat an eye. But bundle it together as one $100 book and it's a show-stopper for some. I have an annual budget for gaming, and whether it's spent on 30 items or 10 is irrelevant.
If I thought I'd play RA, I wouldn't hesitate to spend $100 on a book that will give me 100-300 hours of gaming. Of course, the RPG book industry is supported largely by people who read the books but don't use them in play, which affects perceptions of value in weird ways.
Quote from: S'mon;780208Labyrinth Lord is available in most FLGSes so I don't know why most OSR stuff is only POD.
After the distributor and retailer take their cuts and discounts, you can expect to be looking at a minimum of 65% off the cover price. On a $40 hardback that leaves you about $18, with POD costs running a very charitable $10 if you order in bulk. Now amortize the production cost over that $8, trim out a minimum of 25% or so from the remainder for taxes, and that's your per-book profit. You can make it work if you can drive down your cost of goods with serious print runs and can even find a distributor willing to take a shot on a small publisher game, but it's a lousy way to make a buck.
Quote from: SineNomine;780506After the distributor and retailer take their cuts and discounts, you can expect to be looking at a minimum of 65% off the cover price. On a $40 hardback that leaves you about $18, with POD costs running a very charitable $10 if you order in bulk. Now amortize the production cost over that $8, trim out a minimum of 25% or so from the remainder for taxes, and that's your per-book profit. You can make it work if you can drive down your cost of goods with serious print runs and can even find a distributor willing to take a shot on a small publisher game, but it's a lousy way to make a buck.
This is exactly why I think a lot of the Frog God stuff is overpriced. There aren't any distributors & retailers taking the lion's share of the money.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;780531This is exactly why I think a lot of the Frog God stuff is overpriced. There aren't any distributors & retailers taking the lion's share of the money.
It ain't overpriced if it sells.
Of course, that's a gross simplification. There's always the sweet spot for copies sold and price charged, and you can be on the far side of it as easily as on the near. But from what I see of Frog God, if anything, they're
lowballing their conventional sales and bankrolling production off Kickstarter. They're pitching 700 - 1000 page products at a per-page price of maybe a quarter what other producers would demand for 200-page items. And production costs are largely linear- a 400-page book costs roughly twice as much to produce as a 200-page book, even if print costs differences are minimal.
If you check their products on DTRPG, you'll notice an absence of sales badges on products that have been up for years. This means that they've probably moved less than 100 copies per-product through DTRPG/RPGNow, with the great bulk of their sales moving through KS and their own site. Their Kickstarters are pulling 500-1000 backers and making their real cash on high-end, high-commitment whales to whom they promise a lot. You'll also notice that a lot of stretch goals involve the creation of additional material, thus allowing the KS to bankroll future production costs on salable secondary products.
I couldn't say for sure how much of the KS take is actually turning into unencumbered profit by the time the packages are shipped and the taxman's wetted his beak, but even Rappan Athuk isn't looking like sunshine and muni bonds to me after they parcel out production costs, pay taxes, and split the take among the Frog God participants. All the same, it's looking like those KSes are where they're making their real money, with secondary print and PDF sales being priced low for the sheer mass of content involved.
I understand the statement, "the dungeon crawl that rules them ALL" is a bit jarring to those who first come across it. It's not how I would have billed it. Yet, that is how it is billed, unapologetically. And with the right GM behind it, it could very well be true.
Full disclosure: I have been a fan of the Grande Temple of Jing since the beginning. It has always been the intention to expand the original mini-adventure book into a massive dungeon crawl, and I have been one of the people encouraging its completion. The fact that such luminaries as Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet, and Skip Williams have signed onto it is evidence that I wasn't the only one.
The premise of the Grande Temple is that it has always been over the top. It mixes campy fun with serious challenge and death. It's the home of a trickster god whose only rule is that rules are meant to be broken. Who needs game balance when Jing (i.e., the GM) has a +10 Thumping Stick? It's the ultimate small sandbox where experimentation on all sides is encouraged with as much or as little interaction with the rest of the GM's game world as desired. I could go on, but until you experience it, any explanation will be difficult.
Quote from: Rabbitball;818128The premise of the Grande Temple is that it has always been over the top. It mixes campy fun with serious challenge and death. It's the home of a trickster god whose only rule is that rules are meant to be broken. Who needs game balance when Jing (i.e., the GM) has a +10 Thumping Stick? It's the ultimate small sandbox where experimentation on all sides is encouraged with as much or as little interaction with the rest of the GM's game world as desired. I could go on, but until you experience it, any explanation will be difficult.
Yes, well... with the book being 18 months late and still not sent off to the printer, I wonder
when it would be possible to experience it. :)
Post-mortem: The Grande Temple of Jing Kickstarter was finally published, and it's currently available to non-backers as hardcover (http://paizo.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Store.woa/wa/browse?path=%2Fproducts%2Fbtpy9gu6) and a pdf (//). The reviews I found without searching particularly hard are favorable - an example (https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/16/16696.phtml).