Quote from: Planet Algol;622396All load-bearing structures and ventilation systems MUST be explicitly described or you are juvenile...

That was actually useful to me, though. Had never thought about why walls would realistically need to be thicker--though they often are already in many published dungeons.

As for ventilation: Lords of Quarmall. But in D&D, that ship sailed long ago. If you go the Quarmall route in one dungeon, you'll have to do it (not exactly it, but fussing over an unnecessary formality) every time.

I haven't seen details for electrical conduits, etc. for rpg spaceship deckplans.

Monster statblocks don't list the number of chromosome pairs.

Equipment list generally don't include dental floss or burins.

Juvenile or expedient?

And there's many ways of installing concealed load-bearing structures other that multi-foot thick walls.

I don't know...to me, the dungeon was always a bit like going outside the normal realm of the earth. Things aren't quite the same down there--the laws of the world have been warped and twisted, and real-world physics need not apply.

From the Ancient Egyptians and Sumerians to the myth of Orpheus to the Celtic Otherworld below the Sidhe Mounds, even as late as Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth, heading into the earth has always marked a departure from the real world, something strange and outside the norm. It's still something that we identify with today--any state or national park with a cave will have at least a few "spooky" legends concerning it.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;622397I don't always agree with him but jibba is a nice guy. (And yeah, he could edit his posts a little better.)

I don't think jibba is a bad guy, but the combination of his funky opinions and his signal-to-noise ratio has rendered him irrelevant IMO.

Quote from: Zachary The First;622403I don't know...to me, the dungeon was always a bit like going outside the normal realm of the earth. Things aren't quite the same down there--the laws of the world have been warped and twisted, and real-world physics need not apply.

That too.

Dreamtime isn't "realistic" either.

Quote from: The Traveller;622337The concept of a dungeon in general is a juvenile and immature expression of the hobby anyway.

For fuck's sakes. Not that anti-dungeon PMS canard again. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Zachary The First;622403I don't know...to me, the dungeon was always a bit like going outside the normal realm of the earth. Things aren't quite the same down there--the laws of the world have been warped and twisted, and real-world physics need not apply.

Give this man a beer!

Quote from: Zachary The First;622403I don't know...to me, the dungeon was always a bit like going outside the normal realm of the earth. Things aren't quite the same down there--the laws of the world have been warped and twisted, and real-world physics need not apply.

Were this true, in a specific setting, I'd like a cosmological background that explained it.

To be clear, I think it'd be an interesting twist on the standard RPG fantasy world, and I'd like to see what caused the otherworldly labyrinths and what other effects it had on the setting.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;622409Were this true, in a specific setting, I'd like a cosmological background that explained it.

To be clear, I think it'd be an interesting twist on the standard RPG fantasy world, and I'd like to see what caused the otherworldly labyrinths and what other effects it had on the setting.

There was an old Palladium Fantasy adventure (the Place of Magic?) in one of the books that actually had the characters descend into subterranean chambers, only to discover the sleeping form of an Old One hidden well below the earth. I suppose the corrupting influence of imprisoned Titans, Old Ones, evil gods, etc., could be a reason for it, but there are many ways you could go with it.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;622371Really, Jeff, do you honestly believe that unless you do something first, you cannot possibly criticise someone else?

No, I agree with you about that.

However, considering the low entry bar of publishing in this hobby, I'm wondering why those same critics don't try it themselves to see if they can do better. It is easy to shit all over someone else's work, but to create your own requires effort.

Quote from: jeff37923;622422However, considering the low entry bar of publishing in this hobby, I'm wondering why those same critics don't try it themselves to see if they can do better.

And that's a fair question.

Quote from: jeff37923;622422No, I agree with you about that.

However, considering the low entry bar of publishing in this hobby, I'm wondering why those same critics don't try it themselves to see if they can do better. It is easy to shit all over someone else's work, but to create your own requires effort.

The fields of criticism are parasitical to anything they focus on. Art critics, film critics, book critics? These are people who can't make art of their own trying to claim that their opinions have some sort of value in and of itself. Not that RPgs are art...they're more immediate than that. art is a product, separate from its audience. RPGs are the act of creating as a game, enjoyment in the production without any concern for the finished product. Hence the ultimate failure of any attempts to critique it or any theorywank developed around it.

OTOH< Anything that does enter the public realm is free game for criticism, which means while RPGs themselves are impossible to critique, gamebooks themselves are. and thats the second reason the internet exists (after porn).

Quote from: Fiasco;622352A Megadungeon is like a 50 minute version of The Trogs Wild Thing.

I'd rather a dungeon with 20 rooms all awesome than a tedious 500 room epic like Dwimmermount promises to be.

It also makes more sense to me, based on how many rooms there actually are in the pyramids, and the fact "the whole damn thing is a deathtrap, Bundy!"

20 rooms of death are easier to stomach, than 500 rooms of "lots o'Death in a couple of rooms, random monsters and traps sprinkled about, and empty rooms".

I've also never favored them, because I found that most GM's run Mega-Dungeons to take advantage of player weaknesses, rather than character weaknesses. Players will get careless and bored, and want to hurry through to the interesting parts; characters will be alert and looking for danger around every damn corner. I've had too many DM's "pixel-bitch" players on MegaDungeons.

EDIT:

Quote from: jeff37923;622422However, considering the low entry bar of publishing in this hobby, I'm wondering why those same critics don't try it themselves to see if they can do better.

I am trying, but my progress can only be described as "glacial"...
(I also need to update a hell of a lot more)

Quote from: Benoist;622407For fuck's sakes. Not that anti-dungeon PMS canard again. :rolleyes:


Give this man a beer!

:popcorn:

Quote from: Novastar;622432EDIT:
I am trying, but my progress can only be described as "glacial"...
(I also need to update a hell of a lot more)

As is mine.

Yes, I'm copping to working on a published adventure. Actually, working is too polite of a term. I'm fumbling my way to finishing a published adventure.

Quote from: jeff37923;622359The Grande Temple of Jing may very well be crap, but if all you are doing is shouting from the sidelines without actually trying yourself to publish, then you are nothing but an armchair quarterback.

Here's the opinion of somebody who's not on the sidelines per your definition.

a. How do you pull together a coherent product from a grab-bag of RPG designers, who can't be getting much cash for this project given the budget ?

b. They're making the cardinal error of Kickstarters by not having something written in advance

c. That's a lot of hype for a product that doesn't exist even in many of the designers' heads yet