Quote from: jeff37923;622104I know that haters gonna hate, but if you could do better, then why don't you? What is stopping you from doing your own Kickstarter and showing the world your dungeon of awesome?

I am opposed to Kickstarter hucksterism in general, and that doesn't get fixed by me joining the rush.

I have published a bunch of adventures in other ways, though: some for free, and some in Fight On! and Knockspell. I suppose the one closest to the megadungeon style (if not size) is the second part of Khosura: City State of the Four Mysteries in FO #10. The PDF goes for a modest $5. If you want to to buy the city-state itself (#9) and the extra sublevel that was published previously (#1), all of that is going to cost a mere $15 plus printing, and you will also own whatever else three issues worth of Fight On's got to offer. There are no reward tiers and special hologram foil maps, and no drama is involved, but the whole product is playtested.

That's my counterargument.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;622143'Well, if you don't like the movie, why don't you just produce and direct your own?'

'If that meal was so bad, why don't you just start your own restaurant?'

'Hey, if you don't like the mayor, why don't you just run for office and show everyone how it's done?

Jeff, do I really need to explain why this is a silly argument?

All of those things require a major investment of capital and a life-consuming commitment to the work. Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.

Scribus and GIMP for layout, Dungeonographer for cartography, the publishing tips over at Chaotic Henchman for layout clues, public domain stuff for art, and OneBookshelf for distribution. Literally every step of that process is completely free.

I'd agree that a product somebody thinks is bad does not immediately require a response in the form of a better example if the badness is to be taken seriously, but the actual technical hurdles to putting together a megadungeon are by no means prohibitive. Any reasonably dedicated gamer can do it. The question is whether they can do it well, and that brings around the point that making a good megadungeon is very, very hard for reasons that have nothing to do with the technical aspects of getting 30x30 rooms down on paper.

Quote from: SineNomine;622154All of those things require a major investment of capital and a life-consuming commitment to the work. Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.

Scribus and GIMP for layout, Dungeonographer for cartography, the publishing tips over at Chaotic Henchman for layout clues, public domain stuff for art, and OneBookshelf for distribution. Literally every step of that process is completely free.

I'd agree that a product somebody thinks is bad does not immediately require a response in the form of a better example if the badness is to be taken seriously, but the actual technical hurdles to putting together a megadungeon are by no means prohibitive. Any reasonably dedicated gamer can do it. The question is whether they can do it well, and that brings around the point that making a good megadungeon is very, very hard for reasons that have nothing to do with the technical aspects of getting 30x30 rooms down on paper.

Imo, you are one of the few guys that get's it right, and all by yourself you justify the existence of KS. Also there is some great advice in that post , which I will take to heart as I put together the stuff I give away.

Quote from: jeff37923;622104What is stopping you from doing your own Kickstarter and showing the world your dungeon of awesome?

Nothing. IF I ever do such a thing as a kickstarter, you'll be damn sure the whole thing is already complete or near completion, though.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;613222Because if you pay enough money, you get to help write the thing.

Yeah, that worked out soooo well with e20. :banghead:

Quote from: Black Vulmea;622143'Well, if you don't like the movie, why don't you just produce and direct your own?'

'If that meal was so bad, why don't you just start your own restaurant?'

'Hey, if you don't like the mayor, why don't you just run for office and show everyone how it's done?

Jeff, do I really need to explain why this is a silly argument?

Yes you do. Why? Because self-publishing an adventure for a tabletop RPG is not nearly as difficult as making a movie, starting a restaurant, or running for mayor. You are just implying that it is more difficult so you don't have to put up or shut up.

Quote from: Gib;622149My response to Jeff's question can be found here

And now I have a new blog to read.

Quote from: Melan;622153I am opposed to Kickstarter hucksterism in general, and that doesn't get fixed by me joining the rush.

Fair enough, and you have actually gotten some of your material out there and published.

Quote from: Benoist;622157Nothing. IF I ever do such a thing as a kickstarter, you'll be damn sure the whole thing is already complete or near completion, though.

That is just obvious sound planning for one of these projects.

Quote from: SineNomine;622154Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.

No, it really doesn't.

This same question was asked in another thread on the Design forum. I don't publish stuff not because I can't, but because I have no inclination to do so. I would not enjoy that process in the slightest.

That doesn't mean I can't look at someone else's project and say, 'Yeah, that looks like crap.'

Quote from: SineNomine;622154Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.

Not just that, no. Ask James M of Dwimmermount fame.

Quote from: SineNomine;622154Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;622211No, it really doesn't.

Quote from: Benoist;622214Not just that, no. Ask James M of Dwimmermount fame.

Quote from: SineNomine;622154Any reasonably dedicated gamer can do it. The question is whether they can do it well, and that brings around the point that making a good megadungeon is very, very hard for reasons that have nothing to do with the technical aspects of getting 30x30 rooms down on paper.

Movies, Restaurants, etc... require a certain degree of technical or business acumen that is extremely high compared to DIY dungeons.  Even getting a novel published is extremely difficult if you don't go vanity because it's an arcane mix of skill, luck, Triathlon levels of determination, and above all, knowing the right people.

By comparison, making and publishing any type of adventure is extremely simple, free and easy.   It's making and publishing a GOOD adventure that's the hard part.

I think that's what Kevin was getting at.

Quote from: CRKrueger;622234I think that's what Kevin was getting at.

Which doesn't in any way change the fact that, 'Oh yeah? Let's see you do it better!' is a fucking stupid response to someone saying they don't like something.

Quote from: SineNomine;622154Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.

Some of the "dungeons" I've seen published were inspiring pieces of art, but for the most part I'd agree with this, they are dated cul de sacs - if one uses miniatures, good for gorgeous set piece photos which are useful for about five minutes of actual play. It would take a pretty phenomenal dungeon to get me to pay for it. The last of which was an AD&D tour of hell, if I recall correctly, although the name escapes me for the minute. Marvellous and uniquely suited to the dungeon experience, unlike 99% of real adventures.

Quote from: SineNomine;622154All of those things require a major investment of capital and a life-consuming commitment to the work. Publishing an OSR megadungeon requires a pulse.

LOL, and a lot more manhours than you seem to think.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;622237Which doesn't in any way change the fact that, 'Oh yeah? Let's see you do it better!' is a fucking stupid response to someone saying they don't like something.

Well, true.    You don't have to be Mozart to recognize the difference between him and Insane Clown Posse.

But so is comparing making a megadungeon to actually doing something hard, like running for public office.

Quote from: Gib;622250But so is comparing making a megadungeon to actually doing something hard, like running for public office.

One of the rare occasions when gib isn't talking bollocks. Making a megadungeon is easy unless you want to get seriously creative, which most of the graph paper jockeys don't.